Do You Feel Loved By Krishna?

[suchandra]

Somehow never heard this question being asked but looks like quite some people seem to think like that, "I tried to love God - but feel rejected by God". (Ask the Pastor)

"Has God Really forsaken You? Could You Be Damned And Without Hope?"

 

Devotee, see below: "Does Krishna punish people who do not serve Him purely?"

 

 

Prabhupada, 3 August 1976: So those who are engaged in this way, always thinking of Krishna, worshiping Krishna, for such persons, Krishna says yoga-ksemam vahamy aham [bg. 9.22], “I personally carry all the necessities of life. I personally carry.” My point is that here in this New Mayapura, if you simply carry on this man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah, then all your necessities will come automatically, don’t bother. That is my point, Yes. You’ll get sufficient food, sufficient milk, sufficient fruits, flowers, all necessities. Simply you act on behalf of Krishna and think of Krishna, and don’t bother about the necessities of life. It will be automatically supplied. Don’t be disturbed from that point of view. Simply engage yourself in this business of man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. That is my point.

 

Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada, how are we to determine how much of our endeavor should be for our own personal progress?

 

Prabhupada: There is no personal endeavor. There is no personal endeavor. Just like these animals, they have no personal endeavor. They are depending on you. If you cut his throat, you can cut. And if you give him protection, you can give him. But they, the animals has no personal endeavor. That is full surrender. That is our position.

Remain fully surrendered to Krishna and He’ll give you protection. That you are thinking, how the animal will live, how these children will live. It is not the children’s business, not the animal’s business.

He is fully surrendered, that’s all. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. Other things will be done. Krishna says yoga-ksemam vahamy aham [bg. 9.22] “I shall do that.” Why your personal endeavor?

 

Yogesvara: Sometimes if we are faced with a service we think is beyond our means.

 

Prabhupada: Where is that? Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah is beyond your means? That we have already discussed. It is not beyond your means. If you think of Krishna who can check it? Why do you say beyond your means?

 

Bhagavan: Ahaituky apratihata. It cannot be checked.

 

Prabhupada: It cannot be checked. Ahaituky apratihata. There is no question of checking.

 

Devotee: If somehow, Srila Prabhupada, someone falls down, does that mean that he did not want to love Krishna?

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Devotee: If someone is doing some service which involves business, is he thinking of Krishna when he’s thinking of that service?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, if he’s doing for Krishna, he must be thinking of Krishna. Just like somebody works in business or factory for the wife and children, he always thinks of them. Although he’s working in the factory or business, he’s thinking of the welfare of his wife, children, family. Similarly, if you actually work for Krishna, you’ll think of Krishna.

 

Bhugarbha: How can a person with all material desires develop desire to love Krishna?

 

Prabhupada: Material means that you love more Krishna, automatically material desires will be finished. Because you do not love Krishna cent percent, therefore material desires. The balance is filled up by material desires. Just like in a glass there is some ink. And if you fill up with water, the full glass, the ink will vanish, there will be no more ink. It will all, all white. This is the way. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [sB 11.2.42]. To love Krishna means you have no more material desire. The percentage you are lacking Krishna love, the percentage material desires are there. Ye yatha mam prapadyante. If you love Krishna ten percent, then ninety percent material desire. And if you love Krishna ninety percent, ten percent material desire. And if you love Krishna cent percent there is no material desire. This is the way. So if you love Krishna twenty-four hours, cent percent, simply thinking of Krishna, and offering obeisances, worshiping, then where is the possibility of material

desires? There is no possibility.

 

So the process is very simple, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah, and all other things, they will come automatically. Actually Krishna is supplying everything. Krishna is supplying this grass. The animal will eat. And the animal will supply you milk. You’ll drink the milk. So Krishna is supplying. Everything is being supplied by Krishna, actually, but because we do not know Krishna and do not love Krishna, cannot understand. But supply is being made by Krishna, yoga-ksemam vahamy aham [bg. 9.22], even for the nondevotees. So what to speak of the devotee? It automatically comes. This is the way. So the point is there is no difficulty to become Krishna conscious, and the result is so big that mam evaisyasi asamsayah [bg. 18.65]. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [bg. 15.6]. So for such great benefit of life, if you simply think of Krishna and become His devotee, why shall I lose this opportunity? What is that intelligence? Therefore unless one is a rascal, miscreant, lowest of the mankind, he cannot give up Krishna consciousness. It is not possible. Na mam duskritino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [bg. 7.15]. Unless he is rascal number one, lowest of the mankind, full of sinful activities, he cannot avoid Krishna consciousness. That’s all. This is the position.

 

Bhagavan: You have given the analogy that when a person turns his back to the sun he creates his shadow. And as he turns towards the sun the shadow disappears.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the motto of our… Krishna surya-sama. Godhead is light, māyā is nescience.

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? Does someone, does Krishna punish people who do not serve Him purely? Or do the people punish themselves when they do not serve Him purely?

 

Prabhupada: By nature’s… Nature is acting by Krishna’s indication. So nature will punish you. As soon as you violate nature’s law, you’ll be punished, automatically. Suppose if you, you are not hungry, you have no appetite, bit if you by force if you eat, then you’ll increase the disease. Because you have violated. There is no appetite, still you are eating. So you must suffer. If you have infected some disease, so you must suffer from that disease. That nature’s law is working. Krishna hasn’t got to take any direct action. Nature, maya, is there. As soon as you violate the laws of Krishna you’ll be punished automatically. You cannot avoid it. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [bg. 7.14]. Cannot avoid. Therefore those who are trying to overcome the laws of nature, that is the so-called modern scientists” endeavor. That is foolishness, rascaldom. They cannot do it. It is not possible.

 

 

New Mayapur, France, 3rd of August 1976

[theist]

 

Somehow never heard this question being asked but looks like quite some people seem to think like that, "I tried to love God - but feel rejected by God".

"Has God Really forsaken You? Could You Be Damned And Without Hope?"

 

I see this question as the reaction to all these hell fire and eternal damnation preachers preaching a wrathful God barely able to control His anger and need to punish and reject people. The harm these people have done to the world mind cannot be calculated.

 

We are learning that every living being is part of Krsna. So are we to believe that Krsna will stop loving and reject part of Himself? Krsna is the very Cause of our being. We need to grasp that deeply. The Lord choose to express us out of His very Self. Even in ordinary material life the baby is loved by the mother from the moment of birth onward (even before). The baby does not have to earn that love by being good. So Krsna's love is causeless and ever existing. It is not based on what we do or don't do. There is no thought of Him rejecting someone. Of course we must be purified to come into and remain in consciousness of His presence but that is from our side and has to do with our rejectng or accepting Him.

[mahak]

I dont think this is an adequate question. Srimati Radharani feels neglected by Krsna, how can I say I feel loved?

 

Protection is another matter. I seem to not care so much about birth and death, I have little use for the laws of karma, or expecially the laws of man and other laws that are said by man to be Gods Laws.

 

My guru maharaja gave me the initial instructionn "Chant Hare Krsna and your life will be sublime." So I did, and he did not lie. My life is rather sublime. Yeah, Im old and almost useless, food has no taste, Ive got PTSD, osteo arthritis, my feet are falling apart. Pretty girls still look at me, but they are thinking "daddy", not "honey". I deal in tombs and toilets, I work like a dog, my best friend is a billy goat named "sugar".

 

But he got to me, and I took him up on it, so I guess I feel protected, (and I also feel that my rs are also protected, despite outward appearances).

 

Love? No, Krsna is hiding that from me, probably because he thinks that will increase my love for him. Where is Uddhava, do I got some concerns to let him in on about that boy who fled to go play king of the big city.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

 

Love? No, Krsna is hiding that from me, probably because he thinks that will increase my love for him.

Ah but when Krsna hides from someone to increase their love for Him is that not an expression of His love for that person?

 

And why does He protect you? He is under no obligation. You are His and He protects you out of love.

 

Krsna loves you Mahak. You can't escape.

[sanatan]

BG As It Is: Chapter 16. The Divine And Demoniac Natures <CENTER></CENTER>

Text 20:Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

 

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

It is known that God is all-merciful, but here we find that God is never merciful to the demoniac. It is clearly stated...

 

...Therefore God's mercy is shown to the asuras if they are fortunate enough to be killed by Him.

 

 

Suggests clearly a type of potentially-eternal separation or damnation, though not in the Christian sense.

[mahak]

But because we deal in reciprocation, it my love for him that needs work. He does not have to go thru self realization pains to have unconditional love for me. Love always means two, just as yoga cannot be performed in a vacuum. So, if I can somehow, maybe in a couple of days (lord Brahmas days, BTW), love someone other than my goat, my dead clients at the graveyard, and the mariners, then that is love.

 

Maybe thats what he is saying in the topical gita section. Of goats, he is "sugar", of jobs, he is graveyard caretaker, of professional sports, he is the mariners. What is the source of pleasure these "things" exhibit. So, Ill chant to sugar and my clients who are still hovering, and when these athletes exhibit their skills, Ill meditate on Krsna, who clearly states for my benefit because he does love me unconditionally "I am the ability in man." Go Krsna, fly away.

 

Hare Krsna, ys mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

How can a devotee not feel that Krsna is the very source of love? If one doesn't know this, at least intellectually, what is the motivation for following the bhakti-marga?

Isn't the rasa of separation, or should I say , especially the rasa of separation predicated on the realization that Krsna is the Supreme Lover?

And to answer. Yes I feel that Krsna is more kind, more loving than neophytes could possibly make him out to be, with their exclusive intricate cage of rules and regulations by which they think he can be captured. One thing is certain. Krsna is more infinitely intent on rescuing me from this ocean of material suffering that I am.

[theist]

 

BG As It Is: Chapter 16. The Divine And Demoniac Natures <center></center>

Text 20:Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

 

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

It is known that God is all-merciful, but here we find that God is never merciful to the demoniac. It is clearly stated...

 

...Therefore God's mercy is shown to the asuras if they are fortunate enough to be killed by Him.

 

 

Suggests clearly a type of potentially-eternal separation or damnation, though not in the Christian sense.

 

I am convinced every soul reconnects with Krsna. But not as long as we choose to remain in the demonic state of mind. So in that sense demons can never be saved.

 

I feel for the past few births I have trying to transition from demon to one of more godly qualities. What have I done in my past? God only knows. Surely I have tried every foul mode of conduct to bring happiness to myself. I must have mass murdered, raped, stolen bread from the hungry and kicked dogs even. Who can say our past is from from depravity?

 

The eternal soul is never the doer either as a demon or demigod. Just as demigods can fall, demons can rise.

 

Because we are marginal energy you can say potentially we can be eternally separate but I don't accept the reality of that in fact.

[Tirisilex]

I have been seeking Krishna for a little over a year now.. When he first revealed himself to me I had this overwhelming sense of Love.. and as the days go by I only feel his love for me more and more.. It was his love for me that had me renounce Budhism and other religions.. I cant turn away from him at all because I know his love for me... and my Love for him.

[suchandra]

 

I have been seeking Krishna for a little over a year now.. When he first revealed himself to me I had this overwhelming sense of Love.. and as the days go by I only feel his love for me more and more.. It was his love for me that had me renounce Budhism and other religions.. I cant turn away from him at all because I know his love for me... and my Love for him.

Thanks Tirisilex, yes, no such thing mentioned that there're souls being rejected by the Lord, the only thing taken care of is if somebody wants his material ego being gratified - in other words, people beg the Lord to help them increase the attachment to this material prison house, if the Lord doesnt agree, this might be misinterpreted and falsly considered as being rejected by the Lord.

 

 

Prabhupada, 21 December 1966: "Suppose I have got some bad character from the beginning of my life, but I have understood that “Krishna consciousness is very nice. I shall take to it.” So I am trying, trying my best. But at the same time, because I am habituated to something, I cannot give it up. Although I know that this, my habit, is not good, but still, habit is the second nature. I cannot give it up. So Lord Krishna recommends that “Still, he is good. There is no question that he is not a sadhu or he is not an honest, he is not religious man. That simple one qualification, that he is Krishna conscious, and he is acting sincerely, but failing sometime, but still, he is to be taken as sadhu.” Sadhu means honest, religious, pious. Sadhur eva sa mantavyam [bg. 9.30] And one may say that “Yes, because he is devotee of God, devotee of Krishna, we may call him sadhu, but not cent percent.” But Krishna says, “No, cent percent sadhu. In spite of his bad character, he is cent percent sadhu.”

 

So this is the recommendation. Why? Why is Krishna stressing on this point, that “whatever he may be, still he is honest, he is sadhu, he is religious, he is pious”? Why? That is to be understood in the next… So this su-duracarah… Su-duracarah means that according to time, according to circumstances, according to so many… There are influences. Just like I have come to your country. So, so far rigid regulation and rules are concerned, in the beginning, of course, we do not find such opportunities to strictly follow. But still, we should not give so much attention for the regulation or strict rules and regulation. But we must see how much a person is advanced in Krishna consciousness. That we have to see. And if we go on criticizing everyone, “Oh, you are not doing this. You are not doing this,” so many things according to Vedic culture… There may be so

many things, but we are not concerned. As far as possible, people should be given chance to develop Krishna consciousness. Rupa Gosvami, one of the big acaryas, he says, yena tena prakarena manaḥ krsne nivesayet: “The first business is somehow or other people should be Krishna conscious.” So far rules and regulations are concerned…

 

yena tena prakarena

manahkrsne nivesayet

sarve vidhi-nisedha syur

etayor eva kinkaram

 

If one takes to that line of activities, Krishna consciousness, then all things, all regulation, will follow just like a servant follows a master. If the master starts, the servant follows. Similarly, these things, rules and regulation, that will follow automatically. In the next sloka the Lord says, ksipram dharma: “Because he has taken to that Krishna consciousness, very soon he will be perfect pious man.” This process will help him. Don’t be too much anxious, “Oh, I am not in such a way. I am not in such way.” Whatever way you may be, you just take to this Krishna consciousness, very easy thing. If you take this Krishna consciousness, chanting Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare very sincerely and regularly as far as possible by following the rules and regulation, this Krishna consciousness will help you to become a perfect and pious man very soon. Ksipram. Ksipram means very soon.

[krishnadasa]

Yes very much

[theist]

I need to be reminded of this from time to time. I have a tendancy to drain myself of positive energies by self-condemnation which I often mistake for honest introspection.

 

 

Thanks Tirisilex, yes, no such thing mentioned that there're souls being rejected by the Lord, the only thing taken care of is if somebody wants his material ego being gratified - in other words, people beg the Lord to help them increase the attachment to this material prison house, if the Lord doesnt agree, this might be misinterpreted and falsly considered as being rejected by the Lord.

 

 

Prabhupada, 21 December 1966: "Suppose I have got some bad character from the beginning of my life, but I have understood that “Krishna consciousness is very nice. I shall take to it.” So I am trying, trying my best. But at the same time, because I am habituated to something, I cannot give it up. Although I know that this, my habit, is not good, but still, habit is the second nature. I cannot give it up. So Lord Krishna recommends that “Still, he is good. There is no question that he is not a sadhu or he is not an honest, he is not religious man. That simple one qualification, that he is Krishna conscious, and he is acting sincerely, but failing sometime, but still, he is to be taken as sadhu.” Sadhu means honest, religious, pious. Sadhur eva sa mantavyam [bg. 9.30] And one may say that “Yes, because he is devotee of God, devotee of Krishna, we may call him sadhu, but not cent percent.” But Krishna says, “No, cent percent sadhu. In spite of his bad character, he is cent percent sadhu.”

 

So this is the recommendation. Why? Why is Krishna stressing on this point, that “whatever he may be, still he is honest, he is sadhu, he is religious, he is pious”? Why? That is to be understood in the next… So this su-duracarah… Su-duracarah means that according to time, according to circumstances, according to so many… There are influences. Just like I have come to your country. So, so far rigid regulation and rules are concerned, in the beginning, of course, we do not find such opportunities to strictly follow. But still, we should not give so much attention for the regulation or strict rules and regulation. But we must see how much a person is advanced in Krishna consciousness. That we have to see. And if we go on criticizing everyone, “Oh, you are not doing this. You are not doing this,” so many things according to Vedic culture… There may be so

many things, but we are not concerned. As far as possible, people should be given chance to develop Krishna consciousness. Rupa Gosvami, one of the big acaryas, he says, yena tena prakarena manaḥ krsne nivesayet: “The first business is somehow or other people should be Krishna conscious.” So far rules and regulations are concerned…

 

yena tena prakarena

manahkrsne nivesayet

sarve vidhi-nisedha syur

etayor eva kinkaram

 

If one takes to that line of activities, Krishna consciousness, then all things, all regulation, will follow just like a servant follows a master. If the master starts, the servant follows. Similarly, these things, rules and regulation, that will follow automatically. In the next sloka the Lord says, ksipram dharma: “Because he has taken to that Krishna consciousness, very soon he will be perfect pious man.” This process will help him. Don’t be too much anxious, “Oh, I am not in such a way. I am not in such way.” Whatever way you may be, you just take to this Krishna consciousness, very easy thing. If you take this Krishna consciousness, chanting Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare very sincerely and regularly as far as possible by following the rules and regulation, this Krishna consciousness will help you to become a perfect and pious man very soon. Ksipram. Ksipram means very soon.

[suchandra]

 

I need to be reminded of this from time to time. I have a tendancy to drain myself of positive energies by self-condemnation which I often mistake for honest introspection.

This could be a tightrope walk of probably all of us - and somehow Lord Caitanya seems to explain the same with different words, "being handled roughly and feeling brokenhearted":

 

"I know no one but Krishna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally."

[sanatan]

 

I am convinced every soul reconnects with Krsna. But not as long as we choose to remain in the demonic state of mind. So in that sense demons can never be saved.

I feel for the past few births I have trying to transition from demon to one of more godly qualities. What have I done in my past? God only knows. Surely I have tried every foul mode of conduct to bring happiness to myself. I must have mass murdered, raped, stolen bread from the hungry and kicked dogs even. Who can say our past is from from depravity?

The eternal soul is never the doer either as a demon or demigod. Just as demigods can fall, demons can rise.

Because we are marginal energy you can say potentially we can be eternally separate but I don't accept the reality of that in fact.

I’m moving away from the mercy-stressing theme of this thread, and into a depressing line of thought, but questions arise.

Points, off the top:

Scripturally: This chapter (16) and particular statement (verse 20) in the Gita; statements in the Bible concerning damnation.

In regard to historic religious teachers and thinkers: Srila Madhvacarya’s concept of the tripartite division of souls, and the concepts of predestination advanced by Christian thinkers, principally John Calvin.

In regard to the historically recorded as well as the currently observable material world: The intransigent and ever-recurring presence of purely evil personalities and their actions, ranging from the everyday liars and cheats to serial killers to masterminds and executors of genocide. These personalities seem to appear regularly, as do incarnations and saints, but in vastly greater numbers.

The sixteenth chapter of the Gita discusses elaborately the demoniac personalities and the processes by which they are condemned, to the point of nil chance of receiving God’s mercy, and perpetually cast into situations that will carry them even farther away from this possibility. Srila Prabhupada clearly confirms this in his purport for Ch. 16, verse 20: “It is known that God is all-merciful, but here we find that God is never merciful to the demoniac.”

The post-Reformation Christian philosophers such as Calvin had no Vedic knowledge and therefore incomplete working information; as a result, I regard their conclusions as speculation with influential consequences. Perhaps they stumbled onto the truth.

Srila Madhvacarya, on the other hand, was a saint in the Vaisnava line, regarded by many as an incarnation, and a repository of Vedic knowledge who advanced the basic philosophical structure of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

In light of his qualifications, particularly as a completely self-realized soul, what do we make of his conclusions regarding tripartite division?

At what point and by who was this concept definitively refuted or dropped in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line, or was it simply pushed to the sidelines by later teachings?

What’s bouncing around in my head: the possible and sensible reality that there are eternally condemned or conditioned living entities, and the hope that I’m not one of them!

Guruvani has suggested that Srila Prabhupada benignly bent the truth in preaching to Christian Westerners; perhaps downplaying the scriptural truth regarding condemnation and the stressing of the all-merciful aspect in one-on-one encounters, as Suchandra recounted in posts 1 and 10, was a part of this preaching approach.

Yeh, God only knows what I did as well…undoubtedly very little in the way of spiritual activities; if there were such activities, screwed up big time at some point and lost most of the “bank account”...but hopefully have made a few bucks back.

[Tirisilex]

Dont Demons get another chance after spending untold time in a Hell.. It's not permenant is it?

[theist]

 

I’m moving away from the mercy-stressing theme of this thread, and into a depressing line of thought, but questions arise.

Points, off the top:

Scripturally: This chapter (16) and particular statement (verse 20) in the Gita; statements in the Bible concerning damnation.

In regard to historic religious teachers and thinkers: Srila Madhvacarya’s concept of the tripartite division of souls, and the concepts of predestination advanced by Christian thinkers, principally John Calvin.

Eternal damnation certainly is a depressing thought. In fact it would be the most depressing thought possible.

 

I will never accept this idea no matter what scriptural verse may be pulled up or what any great devotee like Madhvacarya may have said.

 

The thought that Krsna would cause the existence of some souls who He must know would be destined to an eternity of suffering is horrifying to me and ludicrous at the same time. How could anyone love such a God who would do that to His own offspring? Fear Him yes, but love Him, no way. Krsna as the greatest child abuser. Why not hold off on causing their existence in the first place? But that idea is also wrong from another angle no related. I find it unthinkable.

 

Eternity is a long time. In eternity such a doctrine would necessitate that some souls would never get tired of suffering and connect with a sadhu to earn some sukriti and begin to reverse course. That is in eternity now. What to speak of the Lord's incarnation literally taking birth among us hell dwellers and trying to help us. More incarnations than the waves of a river.

 

Doesn't seem like Krsna will ever give up His missions of reclaiming the errent souls.

 

Srila Madhvacarya’s concept of the tripartite division of souls, and the concepts of predestination advanced by Christian thinkers, principally John Calvin.

Could you explain Madhvacarya's concept of tripartite souls sanatan. I have never heard the word before.

As far as predestination goes it seems John Calvin became aware of prarabdha karma (desitny for our present birth) without learning of sancit(karmic stockpile) and kriyamana (karma we are in the process of making including thinking feeling willing).

 

We must have some idea of the whole karmic circle and not just onlittle piece like prarabdha. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. This is another reason Christianity needs desperately to understand reincarnation. That simple understanding would blow this whole eternal damnation nonsense out of the water.

[theist]

Ok I googled it up.

 

 

Another notable feature of Madhva’s theology is his tripartite classification of souls. According to Madhva there are an infinite number of souls that can be divided into three groups. Some of them qualify for liberation, some are condemned to eternal hell, and others are subject to eternal rebirth. Madhva’s tripartite classification of the soul is unique in Hindu theology, but one that he and his followers maintain can be substantiated from Vedic scripture.

 

No I could never accept this.

[gHari]

Sermon on the Mount, n'est-ce pas.

[Pita das]

Yes always always always Krishna is so very kind to me ,and I am so grateful to Him for His great mercy on me ,taking away the suffering of this life by sending Srila Prabhupada to me .Loveing care for me I feel it is He servering me untill I understand how to serve Him.

Krishna's love is constant like the Air He always is there for me but I am so forgetful of Him I am ashamed of my forgetfullness my pride my lust to enjoy without Him.

Still He sends me the prabhuji to assit me in remenbering Him and they all do in speical ways that are not at once understood .

[suchandra]

 

 

What’s bouncing around in my head: the possible and sensible reality that there are eternally condemned or conditioned living entities, and the hope that I’m not one of them!

 

 

 

Nowadays in this age of scarcity the karmis seem to be mainly angry upon having received this human form of live since being in a human body and striving for sense gratification makes you realy look like disabled. Every bird or monkey is in better position. Suggesting that this human form is meant for some different purpose, self-realization could be acceptable, but only if it is presented on tv.

[Guruvani]

 

Ok I googled it up.

 

 

 

No I could never accept this.

It just came to me that Madhvacarya was a Vaikuntha man where essentially Lord Narayana is worshiped in awe and reverence.

 

This concept of eternal damnation would seem like a useful concept in stearing souls to the worship of Godhead in awe and reverence.

 

In the more intimate love of the Vrajavasis there is no culture of awe and reverence and as such the concept of eternal damnation would not be a good principle to preach among those that the acharya is trying to bring in to the Vrindavan conception of Godhead.

 

Maybe the concept of eternal damnation is part of the psychology of worshiping God in awe and reverence and thus necessary in the culture of aisvarya bhakti?

[sanatan]

 

Eternal damnation certainly is a depressing thought. In fact it would be the most depressing thought possible.

 

I will never accept this idea no matter what scriptural verse may be pulled up or what any great devotee like Madhvacarya may have said.

 

The thought that Krsna would cause the existence of some souls who He must know would be destined to an eternity of suffering is horrifying to me and ludicrous at the same time. How could anyone love such a God who would do that to His own offspring? Fear Him yes, but love Him, no way. Krsna as the greatest child abuser. Why not hold off on causing their existence in the first place? But that idea is also wrong from another angle no related. I find it unthinkable.

 

The doctrine of original sin that proceeds from the Adam/Eve story is what made me give up on Christianity at a young age...it was ridiculous at age 7, all the more so at 57.

 

I'm not trying to sell the idea of eternal damnation here, either the Christian version or a Vedic one...it's just very interesting to me that there is such an idea in the Vedic line, and that this idea was advanced by one so prominent.

 

 

 

Eternity is a long time. In eternity such a doctrine would necessitate that some souls would never get tired of suffering and connect with a sadhu to earn some sukriti and begin to reverse course.

 

That's what intrigues me about Madhvacarya's version...the inference can be made that a number of souls are happy being demons, and as such serve in eternally-necessary positions in the mid-material and hellish realms. It makes sense.

 

It's the poor buggers in the middle that bother me...those that eternally transmigrate without hope of redemption.

 

 

That is in eternity now. What to speak of the Lord's incarnation literally taking birth among us hell dwellers and trying to help us. More incarnations than the waves of a river.

 

Doesn't seem like Krsna will ever give up His missions of reclaiming the errent souls.

 

Could you explain Madhvacarya's concept of tripartite souls sanatan. I have never heard the word before.

 

Perhaps it's the mission of those who are redeemable by the Lord's mercy to save those in the middle, to turn them into redeemables? I would hope so...possibly being one of that group is very frightening; if I'm not, it makes me want to help rescue them.

 

I see you googled Madhvacarya/tripartite...last night, I was going to post a reply with basically what you found, but was crashing hard at the time...had to got to bed.

 

This was something that I had read about long ago and remebered vaguely; this thread brought it up for me and prompted a couple hours of googling and reading.

 

Did you pick up that "in the opinion of some scholars", Madhvacarya may have been influenced by Christian missionaries?

 

 

As far as predestination goes it seems John Calvin became aware of prarabdha karma (desitny for our present birth) without learning of sancit(karmic stockpile) and kriyamana (karma we are in the process of making including thinking feeling willing).

 

We must have some idea of the whole karmic circle and not just on little piece like prarabdha. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. This is another reason Christianity needs desperately to understand reincarnation. That simple understanding would blow this whole eternal damnation nonsense out of the water.

 

I don't think Calvin's conclusions are any more than the product of speculation; as I said before, he didn't have all the reference sources necessary at hand. Post-reformation Protestantism was just cleaned-up Roman Catholicism...the core doctrines are still in place.

 

I suspect that if Calvin had had a perfect English version of Bhagavad-Gita in front of him, he would have condemned it as Satan's work, witchcraft, or the "writings of the heathen Hindoo".

 

Problem is, and we both know it: you can explain the idea of reincarnation to Christians until you're blue in the face...they do not want to hear about it, because it destroys their whole philosophical construct.

 

 

It just came to me that Madhvacarya was a Vaikuntha man where essentially Lord Narayana is worshiped in awe and reverence.

 

....maybe the concept of eternal damnation is part of the psychology of worshiping God in awe and reverence and thus necessary in the culture of aisvarya bhakti?

 

Awe and reverence do go hand in hand with fear, so this also sounds sensible.

 

I take that you mean Madhvacarya was a Vaikuntha man in the sense of being pre-Caitanya Mahaprabhu, before the ideas of more intimate rasas became widely disseminated.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What a nice thread!

 

To echo what has already been said:

 

Sometimes I don't feel the love of the Lord so much (when I'm engrossed in the mundane). At other times, I feel the Lord's love (or at least I am *seeing* it as God's love) so intensely that it is *almost* overwhelming.

 

The fact that I am *not* fully overwhelmed indicates that I am not fully-surrendered. If I was more surrendered, that current of love would sweep me off my feet entirely.

 

As for eternal damnation, I've been meditating on that. Regardless of Madhvacharya, there *is* the established concept of nitya-badha (eternally-bound) and nitya-siddha (eternally-realized) which we see frequently on the forums.

 

The conclusion to which I've come is this: even if we *are* eternally-damned, if we turn to the Lord and surrender, He may, by his Infinite Grace, relieve us from our bondage.

[theist]

 

The doctrine of original sin that proceeds from the Adam/Eve story is what made me give up on Christianity at a young age...it was ridiculous at age 7, all the more so at 57.

 

Descent analogy for the fall of the soul thougfh. Problem is they try to take it literally.

 

 

I'm not trying to sell the idea of eternal damnation here, either the Christian version or a Vedic one...it's just very interesting to me that there is such an idea in the Vedic line, and that this idea was advanced by one so prominent.

 

I know you weren't but it is an interesting situation. I can't get my mind around how Madhvacarya could teach that.

 

 

 

 

 

That's what intrigues me about Madhvacarya's version...the inference can be made that a number of souls are happy being demons, and as such serve in eternally-necessary positions in the mid-material and hellish realms. It makes sense.

 

My objection to his idea is that no one can be eternally happy being a demon. The material senses never satisfy the self and evidentually exhaustion with the material condition must set in. Referrence Queen Kunti.

 

These higher middle and lower positions are ever changing as the soul moves through thre modes sometimes being a god then a human then a demon and human again. The sense I got was he is teaching there are these three distinct categories of souls and there positions don't change. I hope I got that right.

 

 

It's the poor buggers in the middle that bother me...those that eternally transmigrate without hope of redemption.

 

Yeah that is what I consider as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see you googled Madhvacarya/tripartite...last night, I was going to post a reply with basically what you found, but was crashing hard at the time...had to got to bed.

 

At first I thought tripartite was some obscure sanskrit term. :-)

 

 

 

 

Did you pick up that "in the opinion of some scholars", Madhvacarya may have been influenced by Christian missionaries?

 

No that flew by me. If so the influence may have went the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

I don't think Calvin's conclusions are any more than the product of speculation; as I said before, he didn't have all the reference sources necessary at hand. Post-reformation Protestantism was just cleaned-up Roman Catholicism...the core doctrines are still in place.

 

I suspect that if Calvin had had a perfect English version of Bhagavad-Gita in front of him, he would have condemned it as Satan's work, witchcraft, or the "writings of the heathen Hindoo".

 

Problem is, and we both know it: you can explain the idea of reincarnation to Christians until you're blue in the face...they do not want to hear about it, because it destroys their whole philosophical construct.

 

True enough. I am convinced many of them like the idea of everybody else going to hell except for them and their friends.

[gHari]

When I think of how much Krsna loves me, I am stunned and cry. I have to stop for fear of flooding the world, and losing all control of whatever I am. Perhaps one day I'll just let go. Start building your arks now.