Has the Soul Spiritual Birth?

[CCC]

I have a question about the soul,

 

Krsna says in Bhagavad Gita: "For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (Bg 2.21)

"Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be." for me that means that the soul has a spiritual birth and after that is ever-existing, inmortal, unchangeable and so on.....

I don't read in english very well, but I think that Krsna is saying that when I make a translation, comments will be appreciated

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

I don't have the quote right off, but for sure there is a statement by Srila Prabhupada in the Krsna Book that before going to Goloka a devotee takes birth in Gokula Vrindavana, the Vrajabhumi that manifests in material universes on planets like Earth.

 

After taking birth in Gokula, the Vrajabhumi, then the devotee goes to Goloka from there after establishing his relationship with Krishna.

 

There is no going to Goloka directly.

 

First, the devotee takes birth in Vraja as it is manifesting for Krishna's pastimes in a material universe.

 

Then, after establishing the relationship in Vrajabhumi the devotee goes to Goloka or Krishnaloka from there.

I think this same idea is given in some book or commentary of either Srila Rupa or Srila Sanatan Goswami.

 

With some research I could find some reference, but for now I am cooking stir-fry for dinner and I don't have time to do the research.

[theist]

Well the idea of a birth or a beginning points simultaneously to a time when something was not or yet to be, not existing. Clearly Krsna is telling us that there never was such a time when we did not exist, therefore no birth.

 

He is addressing it from our point of view in that anyone that we see existing has always existed and will always be.

[Guruvani]

 

Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. " (Bg 2.21)

 

Again, I don't have the shastric quote at hand, but originally we were integrated parts and parcels of Krishna, then as a spark comes out of a fire we become a disintegrated part and parcel of Krishna.

 

So, we have always existed, but at some point we became dis-integrated from Krishna and manifested our seperate existence. (0ne and seperate)

[CCC]

with spiritual birth I mean that the soul has his origin in the spiritual world, but there was a time when that particular soul never existed before and come to being as spiritual soul and by the mercy of the lord was manifested or created. But all these manifestation where in the spiritual realm. All devotees know that the soul has no material birth, but for me that bhagavad gita verse is saying the soul has a spiritual creation.

[theist]

Yeah I understood what you were saying and you are not reading it correctly IMO.

[CCC]

 

Yeah I understood what you were saying and you are not reading it correctly IMO.

 

no, when you posted I was writting that post.

 

So that means that there are a limited number of jivas? they are innumerable but has a limit, because there is no creation or manifestation of new souls...

 

Now I remember... I have read that there is a unlimited number if jivas and that amount is ever increasing, maybe in Caitanya Caritamrita... I will try to quote

[CCC]

well, I found this a commentary by Ramanuja explaining that verse

 

2.20 As the self is eternal for the reasons mentioned (above), and hence free from modifications, it is said that all the attributes of the insentient (body) like birth, death etc., never touch the self. In this connection, as the statement, 'It is never born, It never dies' is in the present tense, it should be understood that the birth and death which are experienced by all in all bodies, do not touch the self. The statement 'Having come into being once, It never ceases to be' means that this self, having emerged at the beginning of a Kalpa (one aeon of manifestation) will not cease to be at the end of the Kalpa (i.e., will emerge again at the beginning of the next Kalpa unless It is liberated). This is the meaning --- that birth at the beginning of a Kalpa in bodies such as those of Brahman and others, and death at the end of a Kalpa as stated in the scriptures, do not touch the self. Hence, the selves in all bodies, are unborn, and therefore eternal. It is abiding, not connected, like matter, with invisible modifications taking place. It is primeval; the meaning is that It existed from time immemorial; It is even new i.e., It is capable of being experienced always as fresh. Therefore, when the body is slain the self is not slain.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's not how it's usually read. The meaning is generally accepted to be, "since the soul exists, it cannot cease to exist". It's not that the soul came into existence at some point--it always existed.

 

Anyways, just when is James Brown's birthday? *That's* the spiritual birthday of Soul.

 

 

well, I found this a commentary by Ramanuja explaining that verse

 

2.20 As the self is eternal for the reasons mentioned (above), and hence free from modifications, it is said that all the attributes of the insentient (body) like birth, death etc., never touch the self. In this connection, as the statement, 'It is never born, It never dies' is in the present tense, it should be understood that the birth and death which are experienced by all in all bodies, do not touch the self. The statement 'Having come into being once, It never ceases to be' means that this self, having emerged at the beginning of a Kalpa (one aeon of manifestation) will not cease to be at the end of the Kalpa (i.e., will emerge again at the beginning of the next Kalpa unless It is liberated). This is the meaning --- that birth at the beginning of a Kalpa in bodies such as those of Brahman and others, and death at the end of a Kalpa as stated in the scriptures, do not touch the self. Hence, the selves in all bodies, are unborn, and therefore eternal. It is abiding, not connected, like matter, with invisible modifications taking place. It is primeval; the meaning is that It existed from time immemorial; It is even new i.e., It is capable of being experienced always as fresh. Therefore, when the body is slain the self is not slain.

[theist]

 

no, when you posted I was writting that post.

 

So that means that there are a limited number of jivas? they are innumerable but has a limit, because there is no creation or manifestation of new souls...

 

Now I remember... I have read that there is a unlimited number if jivas and that amount is ever increasing, maybe in Caitanya Caritamrita... I will try to quote

 

No limited number of jivas. This all takes place beyond the time conception in what we call the eternal now. No past or future. In our present state conditioned as we are by the time conception the happenings there will never fit with our preconceptions.

 

God is acintya. Inconceivable. He is umlimited and expanded everywhere yet He is ever expanding. To our minds that is a contradiction. Our minds can never wrap around Krsna and contain him.

 

It is natural that we have these questions but we must know our limitations at the same time.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Anyways, just when is James Brown's birthday? *That's* the spiritual birthday of Soul.

 

Nope, that was the birthday of the father of soul.

[theist]

 

Anyways, just when is James Brown's birthday? *That's* the spiritual birthday of Soul.

Couple days ago I think. Brown was ok. A few good songs. Dancing greatly overrated. This is a Man's World is a true classic.

 

More importantly is the disappearance day of Elvis Presley which I think was yesterday. The king is dead. Long live the king (the young king ).