Why is it this way?

[Arjuna Haridas]

Why is it that God made the religion so free and open? One thing that I personally like about the Abrahamic religions is that you know for certain what to do and what not to do. Comming from an Abrahamic religion (Islam) to Hinduism thrusts me into certainty of what to do into confusion. Has anyone else here (who wasn't born Hindu, of course) experienced this?

 

Why did God make it this way? Is it to confuse us? Is it a test? Why wouldn't He just tell us that "This is That" and then leave it in book format? The Bhagavad Gita is the closest thing to this, but then it recommends to worship according to the Vedas and Upanishads, and this is where things get hectic. People tell me that I'll go to Hell if I don't chant a certain mantra (which means nothing to me as nobody bothers to translate them) or if I don't do a certain ritual everyday (which also means nothing to me since nobody bothers to explain them). Has anyone else felt this way?

 

Why do you think that God made it so that Hinduism is the way it is; a completely personal religion with no "Do"s and "Don't"s?

[Avinash]

Suppose a religion lays down strict do's and dont's. One of the dont's is "Don't tell a lie."

 

Consider the following situation:-

Somebody has suffered a few heart attacks. Doctors have told his family members that if the patient is told anything which willl hurt him, then it is almost certain that he will not survive. There is one news, which the patient's family is trying to hide from him because if he comes to know this, then he will be shocked. In order to hide it from him, they may be forced to lie. If they do not lie, then they will cause his death. If they lie, then they are doing something, which is a "don't" in the religion. This means that telling lie is not always bad. But, we know that in most of cases, it is bad.

 

The above is a very simple example I have given. Life is far more complicated. We are often in a situation in which no matter whatever we do, there is something negative in it. Therefore, strict set of "do's" and "dont's" will not be practical.

[Avinash]

 

Why do you think that God made it so that Hinduism is the way it is; a completely personal religion with no "Do"s and "Don't"s?

 

As per scriptures of Hinduism, it is not a completely personal religion. It also has its set of do's and dont's (though, as I explained in the previous message, these do's and dont's are not always applicable).

However, many people try to justify their personal likes and dislikes by saying that their religion allows them to do so. But Hinduism does not allow them.

[mystic_seeker]

Dear Arjuna Haridas,

 

As one who was raised in an Abrahamic faith (Christianity), I know what you mean when you say "Comming from an Abrahamic religion (Islam) to Hinduism thrusts me into certainty of what to do into confusion."

 

But consider this. Even if it were possible for everything about ethics to be written into Scripture (and I don't think this is possible) then people would be constantly going to the Scripture instead of going to God in prayer and meditation. Not having all the answers in Scripture forces us to think deeply on our own and to go to God for answers, both of which are helpful to our ethical and spiritual growth.

 

I have seen first hand what happens when "Scripture alone" is pursued in Christianity. Many Christians I know think that all non-Christians are going to hell because of Scriptural passages. Had they gone to God in the first place for guidance they would have realized that this is not true. So the "confusion" of which you speak is actually a liberating freedom. It saves us from error and encourages us to grow instead of remaining like children.

 

Namaste.

[suchandra]

 

Dear Arjuna Haridas,

 

As one who was raised in an Abrahamic faith (Christianity), I know what you mean when you say "Comming from an Abrahamic religion (Islam) to Hinduism thrusts me into certainty of what to do into confusion."

 

 

 

This confusion must be surely intense because the Bible says nowhere that there's an immortal soul - in fact Christians believe that there's no soul and consider the body as the soul. And when someone dies it is all over - no such thing as eternal soul.

The confusion probably starts when reading in Bhagavad-gita verses like:

 

For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. (BG 2.20)

Since the Vedas claim to be authoritative religious literature explaining the constitutional position of the soul, Christians might be even further confused because they think that the Bible is an authoritative lawbook by mentioning nothing about the existence of the soul. Since Christians believe that the consciousness in our body is not eternal but temporary and again becomes dust, "for dust you are and to dust you will return", they might support modern evolution theory that live is a combination of chemicals?

[mystic_seeker]

 

This confusion must be surely intense because the Bible says nowhere that there's an immortal soul - in fact Christians believe that there's no soul and consider the body as the soul. And when someone dies it is all over - no such thing as eternal soul. ... Christians believe that the consciousness in our body is not eternal but temporary and again becomes dust, "for dust you are and to dust you will return", they might support modern evolution theory that live is a combination of chemicals?

 

Dear Suchandra,

 

While I agree that Hinduism has a superior understanding of the soul and reincarnation, etc, please permit me to kindly correct some of your statements.

 

The Bible at the very least implies, if not states, there is a soul distinct from the body, that the soul (or spirit) is immortal and will spend eternity either in heaven or hell, as the following Scripture makes clear:

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23, Saint Paul says: "May the God of peace himself make you perfectly holy and may you entirely, spirit, soul, and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

Matthew 10:28, Jesus says: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul."

 

Galatians: 6:7-8, Saint Paul says: "Don't delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap. If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life.

 

Matthew 6:19-20, Jesus says: "Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal. But store up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor woodworm destroys them and thieves cannot break in and steal."

 

Matthew 22:23-33: "That day some Sadducees-who deny that there is a resurrection-approached him [Jesus] and they put this question to him, 'Master, Moses said that if a man dies childless, his brother is to marry the widow, his sister-in-law, to raise children for his brother. Now we had a case involving seven brothers; the first married and then died without children, leaving his wife to his brother; the same thing happened with the second and third and so on to the seventh, and then last of all the woman herself died. Now at the resurrection, whose wife among the seven will she be, since she had been married to them all?' Jesus answered them, 'You are wrong, because you understand neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For at the resurrection men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven.

 

(Christians believe in Heaven our soul continues to exist but is given a glorified body that is not corruptible like the fleshly human body we have on planet earth. To be resurrected is to be given a new body not a new soul, the soul is immortal.)

 

Matthew 25: 31-46: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All nations will be assembled before him and he will separate people one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats. He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, "Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take as your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you made me welcome, lacking clothes and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me." Then the upright will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome, lacking clothes and clothe you? When did we find you sick or in prison and go to see you?" And the King will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left hand, "Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you never gave me food, I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink, I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, lacking clothes and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me." Then it will be their turn to ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or lacking clothes, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?" Then he will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the upright to eternal life.'

 

Finally, let me say that many Christians reject the theory of evolution and the theory of Abiogenesis (life coming from non-living chemicals). Catholics are allowed to accept part of the theory of evolution but must hold that God creates the spiritual soul immediately: Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, 36: “Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” If you are interested in more on the Catholic position see:

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

[suchandra]

 

Dear Suchandra,

 

While I agree that Hinduism has a superior understanding of the soul and reincarnation, etc, please permit me to kindly correct some of your statements.

 

The Bible at the very least implies, if not states, there is a soul distinct from the body, that the soul (or spirit) is immortal and will spend eternity either in heaven or hell, as the following Scripture makes clear:

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23, Saint Paul says: "May the God of peace himself make you perfectly holy and may you entirely, spirit, soul, and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

Matthew 10:28, Jesus says: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul."

 

Galatians: 6:7-8, Saint Paul says: "Don't delude yourself: God is not to be fooled; whatever someone sows, that is what he will reap. If his sowing is in the field of self-indulgence, then his harvest from it will be corruption; if his sowing is in the Spirit, then his harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life.

 

Matthew 6:19-20, Jesus says: "Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal. But store up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor woodworm destroys them and thieves cannot break in and steal."

 

Matthew 22:23-33: "That day some Sadducees-who deny that there is a resurrection-approached him [Jesus] and they put this question to him, 'Master, Moses said that if a man dies childless, his brother is to marry the widow, his sister-in-law, to raise children for his brother. Now we had a case involving seven brothers; the first married and then died without children, leaving his wife to his brother; the same thing happened with the second and third and so on to the seventh, and then last of all the woman herself died. Now at the resurrection, whose wife among the seven will she be, since she had been married to them all?' Jesus answered them, 'You are wrong, because you understand neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For at the resurrection men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven.

 

(Christians believe in Heaven our soul continues to exist but is given a glorified body that is not corruptible like the fleshly human body we have on planet earth. To be resurrected is to be given a new body not a new soul, the soul is immortal.)

 

Matthew 25: 31-46: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All nations will be assembled before him and he will separate people one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats. He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, "Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take as your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you made me welcome, lacking clothes and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me." Then the upright will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome, lacking clothes and clothe you? When did we find you sick or in prison and go to see you?" And the King will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left hand, "Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you never gave me food, I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink, I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, lacking clothes and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me." Then it will be their turn to ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or lacking clothes, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?" Then he will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the upright to eternal life.'

 

Finally, let me say that many Christians reject the theory of evolution and the theory of Abiogenesis (life coming from non-living chemicals). Catholics are allowed to accept part of the theory of evolution but must hold that God creates the spiritual soul immediately: Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, 36: “Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” If you are interested in more on the Catholic position see:

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

 

Those who claim to really have examined the original Bible texts and know what is what are, don't get me wrong (I don't have a closer relationship with the Watch Tower Society) the Jehova Witnesses. "The teaching that man has an immortal soul tends to further Satan's lie" http://www.watchman.org/jw/jwsoul.htm

"The doctrine of an immortal soul makes the Bible truth about a coming resurrection completely meaningless."

"The concept of an immortal soul can be traced to the satanic worship of Nimrod at the tower of Babel."

 

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Immortal Soul

 

by Jason Barker

Jehovah's Witnesses have long argued against the existence of an immortal soul. For example, the Watchtower states,

 

[Most churches] hold to the unscriptural doctrine that man has an immortal soul. 'Is that teaching so bad?' some may wonder. Do not forget that Satan's first lie was that sin would not bring death, the teaching that man has an immortal soul tends to further Satan's lie. It has led millions of persons into fearful dealings with demons who pose as the souls of the dead. And the doctrine makes the Bible truth about a coming resurrection meaningless.<sup>

1

</sup>

The charge that the doctrine of the soul is an unscriptural lie of Satan is significant, because the doctrine is central to Christian soteriology and eschatology. Is the Watchtower Society right? And, if there is no immortal soul, what would be the future of humanity?

 

What Happens to Us When We Die?

 

The Society attempts to answer the second of the above questions in their new booklet, What Happens to Us When We Die (henceforth referred to as What Happens)? The Society explains, "The word 'soul' as used in the Bible refers to a person or an animal or to the life that a person or an animal enjoys."² Because the soul is simply life of a being, the soul ceases to exist after death.³ The majority of faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, however, will be resurrected after Armageddon; they will then be given a soul, or life, that exactly duplicates their personality in a new body that will live forever on earth.⁴ Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses will go to heaven.⁵ What Happens attempts to refute the doctrine of the soul using two approaches: historic and hermeneutic.

 

The Historical Argument

 

The first half of the booklet allegedly traces the historic development of the concept of an eternal soul in the world religions There are several critical weaknesses in this section. First, the majority of the sources are out-of-date, having been written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; a substantial amount of more recent and authoritative scholarship has been published on the subject. Second, the Society does not objectively analyze the significance of the universality of the concept of immortality. It instead simply shows that all world religions have a concept of the afterlife, implying that the "kaleidoscope of beliefs" proves that the Christian doctrine of an eternal soul is therefore inherently unreliable and unbiblical.⁶

Third, using a tactic that many Christians have noted in the earlier Watchtower booklet, Should You Believe in the Trinity, the Society makes unsubstantiated claims. One such claim is that the concept of an immortal soul can be traced to the worship of Nimrod at the tower of Babel.⁷

 

The Hermeneutic Argument

 

The Society's hermeneutic argument against the doctrine of the soul constitutes its most significant challenge to orthodox Christianity. The Society, through an analysis of the Hebrew word ne'phesh and the Greek word psy khe' in selective biblical passages, attempts to prove that the Bible does not teach that humans have an immortal soul.

An example of the Society's argument using the Old Testament is Genesis 2:7, which states, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [ne'phesh]." The Society comments, "Note that Adam did not have a soul; he was a soul - just as someone who becomes a doctor is a doctor. The word 'soul,' then, can describe a whole person."⁸ The booklet then cites the use of ne'phesh in Leviticus 5:1 and 22:30, Deuteronomy 24:7, Judges 16:16, and Job 19:2 to show that "there is no indication in these passages that the soul is some shadowy entity that lives on after death."⁹ As this article will later show, however, these passages do not disprove that the soul is immortal. The Society uses a similar argument with the word psy khe' in the New Testament. Quoting Acts 2:43 ("And fear came upon every soul"), John 12:27, Romans 13:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:14, and 1 Peter 3:20, What Happens claims that the word psy khe', like ne'phesh, refers to the whole person.¹⁰ Interestingly, the Society makes a critical mistake in its attempt to use an outside source as proof for its interpretation. The booklet quotes Nigel Turner as saying that psy khe' "signifies what is characteristically God's ruah [spirit] breathed into it.The emphasis is on the whole self."¹¹ That the Society is using Turner out of context can be seen from his using the word ruah, the Hebrew word for spirit. If Turner were addressing the New Testament presentation of God breathing His Spirit into a soul, he would have used the Greek word pneuma for Spirit (terms used by the Society elsewhere in the booklet¹²). Excluding this obvious error, the numerous New Testament comments on the afterlife easily disprove the Society's teaching.

The Society uses a similar hermeneutic strategy to prove that, since the soul is merely a person's life, the soul is extinguished at death. A particularly notable example, one which also exemplifies the errors in the Watchtower's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, is the booklet's analysis of Mark 3:4. The NWT quotes Jesus as asking, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?" The Society concludes, "The death of the soul simply means the death of the person."¹³ The problem is that the word soul (psy khe') does not appear in this verse. Instead, Jesus asks whether it is permissible to save or take a life (psuche). Psuche, which literally means "breath," is different from the Greek words for the immortal soul (psy khe') or for the vitality of life (zoe). The Society has deliberately inserted a different word into its Bible in order to support its doctrine.

 

What the Bible Really Teaches About the Soul

 

It is clear at this point that the Watchtower cannot be relied upon to accurately teach what the Bible teaches about the soul. Nonethless, the existence of this booklet requires a thoughtful Christian response.

The Society is correct that the Old Testament is not explicit in its teaching about the immortal soul. Eerdmans Bible Dictionary notes, "As with other terms such as 'body,' 'heart,' and 'spirit,' 'soul' does not designate a part of a human being, but rather the whole person considered from one particular aspect of functioning. As such, it represents primarily the life force of the body or the inner life of the person, encompassing desires and emotions."¹⁴ This does not settle the matter, however, because Christian doctrine is not formed solely upon one section of the Bible. The most effective interpreter of Scripture is Scripture; all Scripture is inspired by God, who does not contradict Himself.¹⁵ The Old Testament passages about the soul must be therefore understood in context with the New Testament.

In reference to the patriarchs of the Old Testament, Jesus said that Moses' reference to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob shows that Jehovah is God of the living;¹⁶ the patriarchs are therefore alive with God, and thus their souls are immortal. The appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration also proves this point¹⁷ - God would be cruel to temporarily resurrect the prophets for that moment, only to kill them again.

The Society frequently quotes Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 to prove that the soul is extinguished at death, "The dead know not any thing.for there is no work, nor device, no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." The problem for the Society is that this passage does not necessarily teach the annihilation of the soul. Because Ecclesiastes contrasts two opposing perspectives of the world - the human perspective, and the perspective given through God's revelation - many Christian scholars understand this passage to be stating that, from a fatalistic human perspective, the dead are conscious of nothing.¹⁸ Other Christian scholars understand the passage to mean that the dead are conscious of nothing in that continues to happen in the physical realm.¹⁹

Support for the conclusions of Christian scholars about Ecclesiastes can be found in the New Testament, which teaches that believers who have died currently experience unsurpassable joy,²⁰ while unbelievers suffer conscious torment.²¹ These passages clarify the statement that "there is no work, nor device" in the grave. Ecclesiastes 9, when taken in context with New Testament passages describing the judgment of Christ,²² show that there is nothing that can be done to improve the morality or spirituality of actions after death, for humans live only once and then face judgment.²³

 

Conclusion

 

The answer to the question asked by the Watchtower Society's new booklet, What Happens to Us When We Die, is not the answer given by the Society. While the Bible does use the word soul to refer to the mortal life, it also clearly refers to that part of humans that exists eternally. This understanding is crucial, because the ultimate state of a person's eternal soul depends on whether one has a relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Kulapavana]

 

Why is it that God made the religion so free and open?

 

why did He make this world free and open? so we can experience the infinite variety of desires and their consequences. why should religion be any different?

[mystic_seeker]

Dear suchandra,

 

Jehovah's witnesses have about 16.5 million members worldwide. They represent less than 1 percent (only 0.0078 %) of the 2.1 billion Christians, if they should be counted with Christians at all. They are certainly not representative of the general Christian population.

 

http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

 

Also even if you are correct about the bible not explicitly saying the soul is immortal (though I think that is implied by the scripture I cited), the situation is more complex. For example, for Roman Catholics, who represent over 1.1 billion Christians, the "Word of God" is not the Bible alone but the Bible plus Sacred Tradition:

 

 

"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture [bible] make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10), in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches."

--Catechism of the Catholic Church, 97, page 29.

 

Sacred Tradition has held for thousands of years that the soul is immortal. Thus, for atleast 1.1 billion Christians, the immortality of the soul is a genuine, indisputable Christian doctrine.

[suchandra]

 

Thus, for atleast 1.1 billion Christians, the immortality of the soul is a genuine, indisputable Christian doctrine.

Yes, but only when you're saved by Jesus, otherwise Christians don't believe in reincarnation but that non-Christians are lost for ever. "Immortality as indisputable Christian doctrine" is a joke. They don't teach the evolution of the soul through 8,400,000 species of life.

Somehow this seems present ISKCON understanding, Christians are ok, therefore ISKCON doesnt preach anymore, 1,1 billion people live what Bhagavad-gita is teaching. Somehow a big illusion. Rather I would say, they believe what modern science says, animals have no soul and the life/consciousness of animals is a combination of chemicals. Otherwise, why would they kill cows, whales, deers, chickens etc?

 

Prabhupada: No. Just like in the Bible it is said, "God said, 'Let there be creation,' and there was creation." Is it not? It is fact. It is fact. Now you find out who created this universe. If you deny this fact, "No. God does not create," then you explain how it was created. So there is no difference between Bible and Vedic literature. We accept also, "God created." But in the Vedic literature you will find how God created. That you'll find. So if you are actually serious to understand how God created, why don't you come to Vedic literature? That is the duty of every student. If you are after the knowledge, why should you stick to one particular place or...? If the knowledge is available in other places, you must have it. That is inquisitiveness, seriousness. But if you say, "No. We are Christian. We have studied Bible. That is all. We do not touch," I don't think that is very nice conclusion. You remain Christian, but what is the harm to study other literatures where more informations are there? That is quite reasonable. We are not asking you to become Hindus. We simply want to, everyone, that you become God conscious. That is our mission. Our mission is not that to convert. What is the use of converting? If my habits are the same... Suppose I am Hindu. I become Christian, but my habits are not changed. Then what is the use of becoming from Hindu or Christian....?"

 

Srila Prabhupada Lecture, 04-06-72, Melbourne

[mystic_seeker]

 

Yes, but only when you're saved by Jesus, otherwise Christians don't believe in reincarnation but that non-Christians are lost for ever.

 

Dear suchandra,

 

You are confusing two topics which are very different: immortality and reincarnation. A religion can have a doctrine of immortality without a doctrine of reincarnation. The doctrine of immortality for Christians just states that the soul, once created, will always exist. They also believe that a person's soul will live out its immortality in either heaven or hell.

 

Reincarnation is a different topic than immortality even though some kind of immortality is necessary for reincarnation. In reincarnation after you die in this earthly life you come back to Earth in a different physical body. Perhaps you are confusing reincarnation with resurrection. Again, resurrection is a different topic. Resurrection means you get a new glorified (non-physical) body which you will use to live in Heaven not on the Earth.

 

 

"Immortality as indisputable Christian doctrine" is a joke. They don't teach the evolution of the soul through 8,400,000 species of life.

 

 

It is not nice to call another religion's doctrine a "joke" when you do not understand it. For example, your quote above implies that immortality in Christiantiy is a joke because Christians don't teach the evolution of the soul. But again, you are confusing 2 different topics: immortality and evolution.