Is Jesus an excuse not to surrender to Krishna?

[Guruvani]

Why are the Jesus people among the devotees always the ones that never joined the movement or left after a few weeks?

 

It is obvious that Jesus has held back some devotees or has been used as an excuse not to surrender to the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Is Jesus many times just an excuse to not surrender to Krishna?

 

Within the KC movement Jesus is almost a non-entity.

On the fringe, Jesus is important.

 

Why do Krishna devotees stay hung up on Jesus as if Jesus has something to do with Krishna consciousness?

 

Many of us came from Christian backgrounds, myself included, but some of us just move on and some of us cling to Jesus for some odd reason.

I grew up in a Christian family, went to church for years and Bible school in the summer. But, when I found out about Krishna I just moved on.

 

Is Jesus just an excuse why some devotees won't give everything to Krishna?

[tackleberry]

 

What are the Jesus people among the devotees always the ones that never joined the movement or left after a few weeks?

 

It is obvious that Jesus has held back some devotees or has been used as an excuse not to surrender to the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Is Jesus many times just an excuse to not surrender to Krishna?

 

Within the KC movement Jesus is almost a non-entity.

On the fringe, Jesus is important.

 

Why do Krishna devotees stay hung up on Jesus as if Jesus has something to do with Krishna consciousness?

 

Many of us came from Christian backgrounds, myself included, but some of us just move on and some of us cling to Jesus for some odd reason.

I grew up in a Christian family, went to church for years and Bible school in the summer. But, when I found out about Krishna I just moved on.

 

Is Jesus just an excuse why some devotees won't give everything to Krishna?

 

Conditioning isn't easy to overcome. Smoking gives me no joy, but I love smoking, god knows why! To fill our emptiness, we do a lot of things, most of them meaningless, like smoking, drinking etc. Similarly, even if people know the truth, they may hang on to the past for such reasons.

[suchandra]

 

Is Jesus many times just an excuse to not surrender to Krishna?

 

 

You mean because Christianity teaches not to stop sinning because human beings cant stop sinning? And because human beings cant stop sinning therefore Jesus died on the cross and in this way all the sins of his followers are forgiven?

Prabhupada didnt like this idea of constant atonement and gives an example of atonement: “The dharma-sastras like the Manu-samhita prescribe that a man who has committed murder should be hanged and his own life sacrificed in atonement.” But Maharaja Pariksit goes on to say, “…One is forced to commit sins again again, even after performing acts of atonement. Therefore, what is the value of such atonement?...I therefore consider this process of repeated sinning and atoning to be useless.”

 

Srila Prabhupada calls those who sin, and then go to a priest to confess and pay a fine, professional sinners. Can professional sinners considered to be on the right path?

[cbrahma]

 

Journalist: Do you really think, from a very practical standpoint, that your movement has a chance to make it here in America?

Srila Prabhupada: From what I've seen it has a great chance. We don't say, "Give up your religion and come to us." We say, "At least follow your own principles. And then if you want to, study with us." Sometimes it happens that although students have received their M.A. degree, they go to foreign universities to study more. Why does it happen? They want more enlightenment. Similarly, any religious scripture you may follow will give you enlightenment. But if you find more in this Krishna consciousness movement, then why should you not accept it? If you are serious about God, why should you say, "Oh, I am Christian,I am Jewish,I cannot attend your meeting"? Why should you say, "Oh, I cannot allow you to speak in my church"? If I am speaking about God, what objection can you have?

Journalist: Well, I couldn't agree with you more.

 

The idea that one has to stop 'clinging to Jesus' as some kind of precursor to surrender is strange. If Jesus is a bona fide guru , and Prabhupada admitted he was, then there is no question of letting go. This is a false dichomoty. There can be increase, more knowledge, not rejection.

[Guruvani]

 

The idea that one has to stop 'clinging to Jesus' as some kind of precursor to surrender is strange. If Jesus is a bona fide guru , and Prabhupada admitted he was, then there is no question of letting go. This is a false dichomoty. There can be increase, more knowledge, not rejection.

 

I don't take Srila Prabhupada's statements to non-devotees as being absolute.

Preaching tactics and THE TRUTH are often not in perfect accord.

 

In the shastra, Krishna says give up all that other sentimental stuff and surrender to HIM.

 

 

 

<center>Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation</center>

 

TEXT 66

 

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

[cbrahma]

 

I don't take Srila Prabhupada's statements to non-devotees as being absolute.

Preaching tactics and THE TRUTH are often not in perfect accord.

 

In the shastra, Krishna says give up all that other sentimental stuff and surrender to HIM.

So Prabhupada is dressing the truth or just straight out lying as a preaching method?

If Krsna's order were sufficient, he would not have had to incarnate as Lord Caitanya to spread the mercy of the holy name to all towns and villages.

[Guruvani]

 

So Prabhupada is dressing the truth or just straight out lying as a preaching method?

If Krsna's order were sufficient, he would not have had to incarnate as Lord Caitanya to spread the mercy of the holy name to all towns and villages.

 

Well, Krishna says abandon all varieties of religion.

If Srila Prabhupada says you don't have to abandon all these other religions then he must not be telling the truth as a preaching tactic.

[cbrahma]

I have a friend who use to be a devotee and left the movement (blooped) because he had an attachment to eating chicken.

He is hugely overweight. He is now completely vegetarian as far as I know. He is conflicted about the idea of giving up Jesus. I tell him he doesn't have to give up Jesus, just sinful activities. The Gaudiya Vaisnava process requires chanting and hearing at least. He rarely does either but is a loyal Catholic.

[mahak]

Because if one cannot surrender to Krsna, Lord Jesus says "get away from me, you fools, because you fail to do the will of the father."

 

Guru shopping is foolish and useless. Like my godbrother who has disciples of his own. Many came to him after receiving initiation from Srila Prabhupada, telling him some nonsense that they never could feel that close to Srila Prabhupada, wanting to link with him. He wisely rejected them vehemently, saying "what do you think I am. I am a vehicle of Srila Prabhupada, therefore, if you have no relationship with him, you cannot have any relationship with me."

 

Jesus is no excuse for not surrendering to Krsna because this is his teachings.

 

But I understand your point. There are phonies everywhere, especially those who like to commit the "saved" aparadha, the elephant offense of sinning on the strength of chanting. Like christians arent perfect, just forgiven. The most bogus bumper sticker ever made. It really should read "christians arent forgiven unless they become perfect." Again, guruvani, you mix up the difference between church-heads and those who actually follow the actual teachings of Lord Jesus. The first group, the eccliastic cheap religionists, your point is exactly true. They flock back to their church so they can pretend to be gods people even though his son says both he and his father reject them. But the real christ followers often feel that his teachings have been clarified now that they have associated with an actual lover of god. Like Pope Shenouda III clearly and truthfully concludes, "Theology can only be discussed by those who Love God, and their disciples" The churchianity folks do not love god, they love the permissiveness of the system, they surrender to the system. And some folks blooped ISKCON for this exact reason as well, because the eccliastic system is a cheap and useless deal that is rejected by all the acaryas.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

 

Well, Krishna says abandon all varieties of religion.

If Srila Prabhupada says you don't have to abandon all these other religions then he must not be telling the truth as a preaching tactic.

The method of immediate surrender is not possible in Kali Yuga. The process of chanting the holy names is that method. Either way to twist what Krsna said into some kind of sectarian pronouncement misses the siddhanta entirely.

[Arjuna Haridas]

 

The method of immediate surrender is not possible in Kali Yuga. The process of chanting the holy names is that method. Either way to twist what Krsna said into some kind of sectarian pronouncement misses the siddhanta entirely.

 

So are you saying that we should abandon what Vishnu as Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita and follow Prabhupada? Do you wish to abandon God's direct and clear Teaching for the teachings of a man?

[cbrahma]

 

So are you saying that we should abandon what Vishnu as Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita and follow Prabhupada? Do you wish to abandon God's direct and clear Teaching for the teachings of a man?

Your jumping to conclusions in the most distorted way. I didnt' suggest anybody should abandon anything. My words were quite clear and unambiguous. Krsna is not sectarian.

[sanatan]

I never joined the movement in the traditional shave up-and-move-in sense, though 36 years ago I had the best association available in ISKCON and an open opportunity to do so.

 

Jesus and my Christian upbringing had nothing to do with not joining. Christianity was meaningless to me at 21. My health had been damaged by the yogic practices taught by a bogus guru, and I was afraid to jump into the Hare Krishna movement. Consequently I drifted away, and after a period of severe illness returned to college. I completed my degree, entered a profession, married, and reconnected with ISKCON in the mid-1980's, after a long period of non-affiliation with religion of any kind.

 

In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't join as a young man. All round, things have turned out very well. I am deeply saddened when I hear the stories of those who got a raw deal in ISKCON.

 

In regard to Jesus Christ now...and I might say paradoxically, in view of some of the previous posts in this thread...what I've assimilated through ISKCON has given me the faith that he was a real person and a genuine spiritual personality of tremendous importance. That's more than all the Christian training of my "previous life" and adult encounters with Christians ever did.

 

I'll happily take Srila Prabhupada's statements about Jesus at face value.

[Guruvani]

 

Krsna is not sectarian.

 

True, so sectarian religions like Christianity don't belong with Krishna consciounsess.

[HerServant]

"Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son." 1John2:22

[HerServant]

 

Originally Posted by Guruvani

I don't take Srila Prabhupada's statements to non-devotees as being absolute.

Preaching tactics and THE TRUTH are often not in perfect accord.

 

 

 

Q1: Does this mean that everything he said to people BEFORE they became devotees were "not in perfect accord"?

 

Q2: True or False: Srila Prabhupada's lectures and preaching to non-devotees was not absolute.

 

Q3: How is it possible for the "TRUTH" to be represented imperfectly (not in perfect accord) by a perfect devotee?

[Guruvani]

 

Q1: Does this mean that everything he said to people BEFORE they became devotees were "not in perfect accord"?

 

(not everything. just certain philosophical issues that non-devotees without proper faith cannot understand in the beginning)

 

Q2: True or False: Srila Prabhupada's lectures and preaching to non-devotees was not absolute.

 

(is pre-school education the same as graduate college?)

 

Q3: How is it possible for the "TRUTH" to be represented imperfectly (not in perfect accord) by a perfect devotee?

(shastric conclusions prove that some of the preaching tactics of Srila Prabhupada sometimes represent compromises i.e. Jesus meets none of the Vedic guidelines for being a bona fide spiritual master as there is no evidence that he represents any legitimate sampradaya nor preaches the Vedic system of worship via authorized mantras)

Srila Prabhupada has denounced all the gurus, swamis and yogis who preach outside proper parampara, so why did Jesus get special concession?

[HerServant]

Guruvani

 

You are clearly against Jesus more than Christians in your postings. While you have a right to your opinion about Jesus, I challenge you to start your tirade against Mary. If in fact everything you say on Jesus is correct, then your position of Her Son Jesus should equally apply to Her.

 

Therefore, please "teach" the entire forum and world what we should think of Her and let us see if Krsna appreciates it. If you are telling the Truth to the world about Jesus, then we will known soon after you tell us about Mary.

 

 

"Also, Mary is the representation of the energy of God. Either as internal energy Radharani or as external energy Durga, the energy of Godhead can be considered the mother of the living entities. But there is no clash between the Bible and the Vedas, simply some people formulate their personal ideas and cause quarrelings." - Letter to Sivananda NY April 19, 1968

[Guruvani]

 

"Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son." 1John2:22

 

The apostle Paul invented the term and the concept of the anti-Christ.

It is not within the teachings of Christ himself.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani

 

You are clearly against Jesus more than Christians in your postings. While you have a right to your opinion about Jesus, I challenge you to start your tirade against Mary. If in fact everything you say on Jesus is correct, then your position of Her Son Jesus should equally apply to Her.

 

Therefore, please "teach" the entire forum and world what we should think of Her and let us see if Krsna appreciates it. If you are telling the Truth to the world about Jesus, then we will known soon after you tell us about Mary.

My point is that the Vaishnavas do not accept or approve of religious systems that have no proper connection with the recognized Vedic sampradayas.

 

Within traditional Vaishnavism there are four main disciplic lineages (sampradayas), each of which traces its roots back to a specific Vedic personality. The four sampradayas follow subtly different philosophical systems regarding the relationship between the soul (jiva) and God (Vishnu), although the majority of other core beliefs are identical.

• Rudra-Sampradaya

<dl><dd>Philosophy: Shuddhadvaita ("pure nondualism"), espoused by Vallabhacharya.</dd></dl>

• Brahma-Sampradaya

<dl><dd>Philosophy: Dvaita ("dualism"), espoused by Madhvacharya, and also -</dd><dd>Achintya Bheda Abheda ("inconceivable oneness and difference"), espoused by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (See Gaudiya Vaishnavism).</dd></dl>

• Lakshmi-Sampradaya

<dl><dd>Philosophy: Vishishtadvaita ("qualified nondualism"), espoused by Ramanuja (See Sri Vaishnavism).</dd></dl>

• Kumara-Sampradaya

<dl><dd>Philosophy: Dvaitadvaita ("duality in unity"), espoused by Nimbarka. (See Nimbarka Sampradaya)</dd><dt></dt></dl>Jesus has not shown to be connected to any authorized sampradaya.

[mahak]

"Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son." 1John2:22

 

Haribol. This is a great verse, and I have used this to thoroughly defeat many anti-christians, especially those who go around saying Jesus is God. This verse is completely describing Lord Jesus mission, that he is here to exhibit the relationship between Himself and His Father (rasa). Anyone denying this, changing this, is against him. Denial of the separate son and father by insisting they are the same person nullify all of His teachings, period.

 

So, christians should be careful with their own scripture, because Lord Jesus Christ speaks plainly. Even writers of what is called the new testament go against his teachings, so the political arrangement of the separate books that make up the bible should always be also considered.

 

Why start another useless discussion, guruvani. Attracted? There is no difference between attraction by lust or attraction by anger. So we all know you dont lust jesus, why anger at him? Its the same deal, bro.

 

mahak

[Guruvani]

I just seems to me like a double standard that the Vaishnavas do not recognize the Hindu yogis, swamis and gurus without the proper Vedic authencity and proper Sampradaya but Jesus somehow gets special treatment.

 

There are many pious and saintly Hindus and even Vaishnavas like the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada who were disciples of Srila Saraswati Goswami that were berated by Srila Prabhupada while Jesus gets some special concession.

 

To me it is quite obvious that Srila Prabhupada adjusted his preaching strategy for his western audience and stretched the truth to accomodate the sentiments of Christian society for the purpose of avoiding conflict with said Christian societies.

 

Otherwise, by all the standard guidelines that comes with the Vaishnava philosophy, Jesus would not be accepted as a bona fide religious authority.

 

Myself, I don't give him any special recognition.

He gets the same consideration that all the other apa-sampradaya cults of India get.

 

As far as I am concerned many of the yogis, swamis and gurus of India that have been rejected by the Vaishnavas are far more advanced than Jesus.

 

For me, he gets held to the same standard as all other apa-sampradaya cults.

[suchandra]

 

I just seems to me like a double standard that the Vaishnavas do not recognize the Hindu yogis, swamis and gurus without the proper Vedic authencity and proper Sampradaya but Jesus somehow gets special treatment.

 

There are many pious and saintly Hindus and even Vaishnavas like the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada who were disciples of Srila Saraswati Goswami that were berated by Srila Prabhupada while Jesus gets some special concession.

 

To me it is quite obvious that Srila Prabhupada adjusted his preaching strategy for his western audience and stretched the truth to accomodate the sentiments of Christian society for the purpose of avoiding conflict with said Christian societies.

 

Otherwise, by all the standard guidelines that comes with the Vaishnava philosophy, Jesus would not be accepted as a bona fide religious authority.

 

Myself, I don't give him any special recognition.

He gets the same consideration that all the other apa-sampradaya cults of India get.

 

As far as I am concerned many of the yogis, swamis and gurus of India that have been rejected by the Vaishnavas are far more advanced than Jesus.

 

For me, he gets held to the same standard as all other apa-sampradaya cults.

 

At least Lord Jesus Christ should have preached about the qualities and existence of the soul - something like "for the soul there's neither birth nor death at any time". This could have greatly supported Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement. His keeping quiet about the existence of an immortal soul is a great disservice.

[cbrahma]

 

True, so sectarian religions like Christianity don't belong with Krishna consciounsess.

Non-sectarian is non-excluding. It is a contradiction to exclude specific religions from the scope of sanantan dharma.

[Guruvani]

 

Non-sectarian is non-excluding. It is a contradiction to exclude specific religions from the scope of sanantan dharma.

 

Then why did Srila Prabhupada even exclude his very own Godbrothers from the ISKCON paradigm?

Why are so many saintly Hindus abused for not having proper sampradaya?

 

I don't see any reason why the Jesus cult should get special concessions that so many other sects and cults of the world do not get from the Vaishnava authorities.

 

Even babajis at Radha kunda chanting the names of the Lord under extreme austerity for many years are rejected by the Saraswata acharyas, so I am certainly not going to give the Jesus cult any special consideration.

 

Many saintly devotees of Krishna have been excluded in the Saraswata school.

Other than as a preaching device I don't see any reason why the Jesus cult should get any special favor.

 

The remarks Srila Prabhupada made about Jesus were just preaching tactics.

Otherwise, Jesus was nobody special.

 

Buddha was a shaktyavesha avatar as well, but I don't see devotees injecting quotes from Buddha into every spiritual conversation on this forum.

 

Jesus has his place, but bringing him up in every discussion amongst devotees is considered objectionable to some devotees who don't want to hear about Jesus in every discussion that devotees have.

 

Jesus should stay in his own topics.

 

Bringing Jesus into every Krishna consciousness discussion of Vaishnava topics is just offensive to some people.