Is diska necessary for the parampara?

[cbrahma]

The justification I've been given for the proliferation of diska gurus in ISKCON is that the disciplic succession must be continued so they gotta initiate lots of disciples. But is the continuation of the parampara contigent on diska or siksa?

[Kulapavana]

 

The justification I've been given for the proliferation of diska gurus in ISKCON is that the disciplic succession must be continued so they gotta initiate lots of disciples. But is the continuation of the parampara contigent on diska or siksa?

 

On one hand it is quite obvious that both siksa and diksa must be there. Siksa transmits the knowledge and practical instructions, while diksa transmits the mantras. To negate the importance of the proper transfer of Vaishnava mantras from guru to disciple is to misunderstand the very essence of the mantra and parampara.

 

On the other hand we can say that all you need is the maha-mantra sankirtan. But in that case the tradition would not last very long, I'm afraid, as it is quite incomplete.

[mahak]

Neither. Parampara means disciplic succession, so the key element is the disciple. Without a disciple, there is no parampara. Srila Prabhupada has many times stated this fact, if he could get one disciple, his mission would be perfect, without one, a failure.

 

Same goes for our lame quest. If we are searching for masters, then we will never find parampara, because the disciple is the key. One must find a true disciple of Vyasadeva to have any connection to his science of Bhagavatam.

 

It is clearly stated that one makes serious offense by thinking that diksa is superior to siksa, or that one has more potency than another. Diksa and siksa are merely adjectives describing the function of guru. Guru is disciple, not master, a vaisnava guru never says he is the master, and is always so imbued with service attitude that he thinks that those whom he has initiated into the science of Vyasadeva is actually his master.

 

Not another rerun. If you want discussion on this topic, go anywhere in these archives and see this issue truely beat to death. And no answers. And just nonsense bickering between eccliastic Iskconnites and eccliastic rtviks will follow, and both have little value, both are afraid to actually be disciple, thus the TRUE LINK to parampara.

 

ho hum, mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

 

The parampara of the Madhva-Gaudiya-Vaisnava sampradaya is a siksha parampara, not a diksha parampara. That the transmission of the parampara is essentially transmitted through siksha is both an historical fact and the understanding of the acaryas.

 

 

The history of the sampradaya is as follows: “ Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji was the pure link in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya between the late eighteenth and early twentieth centuries. He carried and preserved the pure message of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu intact, and he was the instructor of Thakura Bhaktivinoda, who inaugurated the preaching of Krsna consciousness throughout the world. He also initiated Bhagavat dasa Babaji, the vesa-guru of Gaura-kisora dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and instructed Srila Sarasvati Thakura himself. According to some accounts there were occasions at Surabhi-kunja at Godruma-dvipa, Srila Bhaktivinoda’s place of bhajana, when three or four generations of pure Vaisnavas, including Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji and Srila Sarasvati Thakura met together for sankirtana and Krsna-katha.... Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja was the commander-in-chief of the Vaisnavas and is listed in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sucession as a contemporary of Baladeva Vidyabhusana, although his babaji-vesa-guru was, by point of diksha, the disciple of the disciple of Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana. Be that as it may, he was the most prominent acarya after Baladeva Vidyabhusana and, being his spiritual equal, is thus counted as his co-acarya. (Babaji Maharaja, Karnamrta dasa Adhikari)

 

"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purport)

[cbrahma]

 

Neither. Parampara means disciplic succession, so the key element is the disciple. Without a disciple, there is no parampara. Srila Prabhupada has many times stated this fact, if he could get one disciple, his mission would be perfect, without one, a failure.

 

Same goes for our lame quest. If we are searching for masters, then we will never find parampara, because the disciple is the key. One must find a true disciple of Vyasadeva to have any connection to his science of Bhagavatam.

 

It is clearly stated that one makes serious offense by thinking that diksa is superior to siksa, or that one has more potency than another. Diksa and siksa are merely adjectives describing the function of guru. Guru is disciple, not master, a vaisnava guru never says he is the master, and is always so imbued with service attitude that he thinks that those whom he has initiated into the science of Vyasadeva is actually his master.

 

Not another rerun. If you want discussion on this topic, go anywhere in these archives and see this issue truely beat to death. And no answers. And just nonsense bickering between eccliastic Iskconnites and eccliastic rtviks will follow, and both have little value, both are afraid to actually be disciple, thus the TRUE LINK to parampara.

 

ho hum, mahaksadasa

Quite honestly I'm burnt out on the topic of diska. It's just such an obsession at the LA Temple where anybody who frequents it will be plagued with the question "Which spiritual master are you aspiring to be initiated by?" and my response usually is "Krsna hasn't told me yet".

[sanatan]

.

[Kulapavana]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The parampara of the Madhva-Gaudiya-Vaisnava sampradaya is a siksha parampara, not a diksha parampara. That the transmission of the parampara is essentially transmitted through siksha is both an historical fact and the understanding of the acaryas. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purport) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

If diksa is nothing more than siksa (receiving knowledge) why do we say that Saraswata sampradaya is based on siksa and not diksa?

 

You just cant change the meaning of words to suit your theories. For thousands of years these terms were clearly defined and understood. It should remain that way. Iskcon devotees should stop concocting their own ideas about these topics.

[CCC]

My personal Opinion:

 

Who is guru nowadays?

 

Srila Prabhupada give us the perfect example as guru, so I take shelter in him only, he is my diksa and siksa guru because he initiate me in the trascendental knowledge from his words (books, classes, kirtans, etc).

I remember the first time I read their books I had had many mistical experiences, just reading his books!!

 

Prabhupada's Godbrothers are not my siksa gurus because Prabhupada said us that they are offenders and are contaminated by impersonalism, really i don't want to read theirs books just to take care of my spiritual life. So I think that to be a siksa guru is not a cheap thing, anyways for me all people who has helped me in developing my spiritual life are siksas.

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION Madhya 15.108

Mahaprabhu speaking:

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

 

This is the only definition of diksa that I want to concentrate on. I feel no need for anyother type of diksa in my life. If I simply & sincerely concentrate on awakening transcendental knowledge through chanting the Holy Name I trust Krsna will correct any mistakes in my attempt and carry what I lack. Any more than that I find to be a disturbance to my simple brain.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada's Godbrothers are not my siksa gurus because Prabhupada said us that they are offenders and are contaminated by impersonalism...

 

can you please provide a quote?

 

Prabhupada's sannyasa guru was Srila Keshava Maharaja, who was also his Godbrother. You think Prabhupada thought his own sannyasa guru was an impersonalist and an offender?

[Kulapavana]

 

This is the only definition of diksa that I want to concentrate on. I feel no need for anyother type of diksa in my life.

 

I'm afraid you do not understand the quotes you cite.

 

in the first quote Mahaprabhu says that one does not need diksa prior to chanting the holy name and that one can be delivered simply by repeating the Holy Name. He is not inventing a new meaning to the word diksa, He simply says that it is not a pre-requisite to chanting of the Holy Name... and btw. precisely what does it mean that one is "delivered"?

 

was Haridasa Thakura initiated by some guru? not that I know of, yet pretty much all other associates of the Lord were duly initiated through mantra-diksa.

 

In the second quote Jiva Gosvami says that diksa IS a process through which "one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity". He is not saying that any process through which one awakens transcendental knowledge BECOMES diksa. In other words, just receiving a mantra from somebody does not constitute a true diksa - one must actually awaken awaken transcendental knowledge and vanquish sinful reactions through this process (repeating the initiation mantra).

[theist]

Thanks for your opinion. I find the words themselves as quoted quite clear on their own however.

 

There are other quotes by Jiva Gosvami which I find confusing though. Like the need to be a brahmana before one can properly worship the Holy Name.

 

Same purport. If you can help with that I would appreciated it.

[Kulapavana]

 

There are other quotes by Jiva Gosvami which I find confusing though. Like the need to be a brahmana before one can properly worship the Holy Name.

 

if you have the exact quote with location (for context) it would be very interesting to discuss it here.

[theist]

 

. and btw. precisely what does it mean that one is "delivered"?

 

 

To be delivered means to be liberated from our bondage to matter and to be delivered to Krsna as His loving servant.

[theist]

The quote I spoke of is in bold. The example of Haridas Thakur that you brought up is a very good one. I feel that Haridas is more of an example to me than anyone else if Caitanya-lila. Born outside the hindu society in a Muslim family it appears he took to Vaisnavism without the trappings (adornments) of hindu tradition. Of course I know little of his life and may have a wrong view that needs to be corrected.

 

Anyway this verse and purport can keep us occupied for a while. It has never been fully clear to me actually. I am off to the Dr.'s office and will be back this afternoon.

 

 

TRANSLATION CC Madhya 15.108

 

Mahaprabhu speaking to Sarvabhauma:

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmad diksheti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

"Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha." The regulative principles of diksha are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadishu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradikshitanam tu mantra-devarcanadishu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

 

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly."

According to the Vaishnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Vishnu-yamala:

adikshitasya vamoru

kritam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti

diksha-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam

sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grihniyad vaishnavam mantram

diksha-purvam vidhanatah

"It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take a Vaishnava initiation from him."

The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sagara:

yatha kancanatam yati

kasyam rasa-vidhanatah

tatha diksha-vidhanena

dvijatvam jayate nrinam

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brahmana."

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.11,12) in discussing the purascarya process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-samhita:

puja traikaliki nityam

japas tarpanam eva ca

homo brahmana-bhuktis ca

purascaranam ucyate

guror labdhasya mantrasya

prasadena yatha-vidhi

pancangopasana-siddhyai

puras caitad vidhiyate

"In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Krishna mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brahmanas. These five activities constitute purascarya. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these purascarya processes."

The word purah means "before" and carya means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months.

In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4,5,7) it is stated:

vina yena na siddhah syan

mantro varsha-satair api

kritena yena labhate

sadhako vanchitam phalam

purascarana-sampanno

mantro hi phala-dhayakah

atah purashkriyam kuryat

mantravit siddhi-kanksaya

purashkriya hi mantranam

pradhanam viryam ucyate

virya-hino yatha dehi

sarva-karmasu na kshamah

purascarana-hino hi

tatha mantrah prakirtitah

"Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected."

In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283), Srila Jiva Gosvami states:

yadyapi sri-bhagavata-mate pancaratradi-vat arcana-margasya avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purushartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesham diksha-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirshadbhih kritayam dikshayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva.

Of similar importance is diksha, which is explained as follows in Bhakti-sandarbha (284):

yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kardaya-silanam vikshipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rishi-prabhritibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

Similarly in the Ramarcana-candrika it is stated:

vinaiva diksham viprendra

purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina

japa-matrena siddhida

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krishna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, he can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krishna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krishna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi 7.73):

krishna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krishna-nama haite pabe krishnera carana

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva—it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

atah sri-krishna-namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau

svayam eva sphuraty adah

According to Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 17.134):

ataeva krishnera 'nama', 'deha', 'vilasa'

prakritendriya-grahya nahe, haya sva-prakasa

"With these material senses, one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. However, when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed."

[Guruvani]

The Gaudiya acharyas were caught in a delicate balancing act of trying to make Krishna bhakti relevant and acceptable to all castes and classes.

As such, their instructions might sometimes seems contradictory in that in some parts they address the outcastes and in some parts they address caste brahmins and their attachment to smriti principles.

 

No doubt, it is a task to sort out the truth even after such elaborate explanations that have been rendered by the Gaudiya acharyas and even the Saraswata Gaudiya acharyas.

 

So, when going through the shastric conclusions of the acharyas we have to be mindful that the acharyas were trying to accomodate the conditioning of all classes of souls when they presented the Krishna consciousness philosophy.

 

It is a very complicated task to make Krishna consicousness relevant to both caste brahmans and outcastes at the same time.

 

So, try to find the part that is relevant to you and strikes your inner chord.

 

Don't get hung up on the parts that were geared for neutralizing the attacks of the caste Goswamis.

 

Take the part that relates to you and leave the other part for those it pertains to.

[AncientMariner]

 

The Gaudiya acharyas were caught in a delicate balancing act of trying to make Krishna bhakti relevant and acceptable to all castes and classes.

As such, their instructions might sometimes seems contradictory in that in some parts they address the outcastes and in some parts they address caste brahmins and their attachment to smriti principles.

 

No doubt, it is a task to sort out the truth even after such elaborate explanations that have been rendered by the Gaudiya acharyas and even the Saraswata Gaudiya acharyas.

 

So, when going through the shastric conclusions of the acharyas we have to be mindful that the acharyas were trying to accomodate the conditioning of all classes of souls when they presented the Krishna consciousness philosophy.

 

It a very complicated task to make Krishna consicousness relevant to both caste brahmans and outcastes at the same time.

 

So, try to find the part that is relevant to you and strikes your inner chord.

 

Don't get hung up on the parts that were geared for neutralizing the attacks of the caste Goswamis.

 

Take the part that relates to you and leave the other part for those it pertains to.

 

Gotta agree with that sentiment. That approach has helped me a lot in keeping my sanity in trying to sort out all of the transcendental contradictions in Krsna Consciousness.

[cbrahma]

 

"Well initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing." (Srila Prabhupada: Press Interview, Chandigarh, 10/16/76)

The reason the ISKCONVadis don't want to admit the deeper intent of diksa is that it knocks the religiosity right from under them. No more institutional control by the totalitarian GBC.

There are now about eighty ISKCON diksa gurus. If they conform to the standards for being guru - they should all be uttama adhikari - The GBC is so powerful - a little fairy dust and poof! 80 pure devotees-

(Gambling is against the regulative principles.)

[Kulapavana]

 

To be delivered means to be liberated from our bondage to matter and to be delivered to Krsna as His loving servant.

 

that is a very broad category of existence and a very wide time range.

[cbrahma]

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The parampara of the Madhva-Gaudiya-Vaisnava sampradaya is a siksha parampara, not a diksha parampara. That the transmission of the parampara is essentially transmitted through siksha is both an historical fact and the understanding of the acaryas. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purport)

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

If diksa is nothing more than siksa (receiving knowledge) why do we say that Saraswata sampradaya is based on siksa and not diksa?

 

You just cant change the meaning of words to suit your theories. For thousands of years these terms were clearly defined and understood. It should remain that way. Iskcon devotees should stop concocting their own ideas about these topics.

Your logic escapes. There's nothing here to infer that diska and siksa are the same thing. Siska is more important certainly - because the most important meaning of guru is teacher. Diksa, on the other hand is the transmission of the knowledge being taught by a qualified guru to a qualified disciple who acts on the instructions.

[Guruvani]

Diksha is initiation into mantra and the spiritual formula.

Siksha is instructions for the progressive advancement of the student.

 

With the advent of Mahaprabhu, diksha has become somewhat nebulous as evinced by Mahaprabhu's personal mission in South India.

 

However, his disciples the Goswamis were ordered to present the Bhakti cult authoritatively on the basis of Vedic authority.

 

The movement of Mahaprabhu in South India did not have all the framework that the Goswamis built with Vedic authority.

 

Since the Goswamis were living in and surrounded by smarta brahman predominance, they were obliged to try and present the bhakti cult in a way that could withstand affront from the smarta society that was dominant in India at that time.

 

Outside of that, Mahaprabhu showed in South India that all the rigid Vedic principles were not really required in the bhakti cult.

[Kulapavana]

According to one Gaudiya Vaisnava biography, Haridasa Thakur took birth in a brahmana family. His parents passed away when he was a small child and hence was raised by a pious muslim family.

<!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_19214--><!-- THE POST -->

[Kulapavana]

 

Your logic escapes. There's nothing here to infer that diska and siksa are the same thing. Siska is more important certainly - because the most important meaning of guru is teacher. Diksa, on the other hand is the transmission of the knowledge being taught by a qualified guru to a qualified disciple who acts on the instructions.

 

that is precisely what I'm talking about: you folks equate siksa and diksa. the highlighted definition of diksa you use here is simply siksa.

[cbrahma]

 

that is precisely what I'm talking about: you folks equate siksa and diksa. the highlighted definition of diksa you use here is simply siksa.

Who's 'us folks". I don't represent any group. I despise group-think. And the highlited definition is not my concoction.

"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purport)

[CCC]

 

The justification I've been given for the proliferation of diska gurus in ISKCON is that the disciplic succession must be continued so they gotta initiate lots of disciples. But is the continuation of the parampara contigent on diska or siksa?

 

As far as I know, Prabhupada wanted that to all of his disciples become gurus in the future, but first they must be qualified. Is normal that a father wish the best to his son. Self-appointed gurus (as Iskcon and gaudiya math), Voted in gurus (at least Iskcon, gm idk) are not qualified, the guru is self-effulgent.

 

We have the Gaudiya Math history after the passing of BSGM, his disciples disobeyed him, except Srila Prabhupada and we can see by facts how was the success of Him and how was the fiasco created by his godbrothers, we can see here who was the self effulgent acharya.

 

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu obeyed his spiritual master chanting Hare Krsna and spreading the holy name in all places and we know how succesful He was, He gave us the example as disciple also.