Is diska necessary for the parampara?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Did you know? There's also a monster in your closet and another under your bed!!

 

Be sure to say your prayers before you lay your head down on your pillow!!

 

 

 

Prabhupada's Godbrothers are not my siksa gurus because Prabhupada said us that they are offenders and are contaminated by impersonalism, really i don't want to read theirs books just to take care of my spiritual life. So I think that to be a siksa guru is not a cheap thing, anyways for me all people who has helped me in developing my spiritual life are siksas.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I like fairy tales. Do you have any others? I especially like fairy tales about trolls.

 

 

We have the Gaudiya Math history after the passing of BSGM, his disciples disobeyed him, except Srila Prabhupada and we can see by facts how was the success of Him and how was the fiasco created by his godbrothers, we can see here who was the self effulgent acharya.

[CCC]

 

I like fairy tales. Do you have any others? I especially like fairy tales about trolls.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada Speaks about his Gaudiya Math Godbrothers

 

<hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> I can understand someone getting a little bewildered about our relationship with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers before his letters and conversations were published, but what excuse does anyone have now? Any of Srila Prabhupada's so-called disciples who still insist on associating with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or godnephews after reading the quotes below are obviously not very sincere or very serious about following Srila Prabhupada's instructions. Pratyatosa dasa (06-13-04)

Dear Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Please keep in mind, while reading the quotes below, that Srila Prabhupada has never retracted any of them. Some extremely self motivated people might say that he apologized to his godbrothers on his death bed, but how can this be considered any more than just polite talk, or setting an example for his disciples of how to try and make amends before leaving this material realm?

Also, I have never heard of any tape recording which documents this supposed apology, and it's not in the VedaBase. Where is the proof?

Even if Srila Prabhupada did apologize to some of his godbrothers, how could this be considered a retraction, especially for the April, 1974 letter to Rupanuga, which is a signed document, and which contains the instruction to all of his disciples, "This is my instruction to you all." No contradictory instruction that even comes close to this direct, authoritative, signed document has ever been produced.

I can understand someone getting a little bewildered about our relationship with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers before his letters and conversations were published, but what excuse does anyone have now? Any of Srila Prabhupada's so-called disciples who still insist on associating with Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or godnephews after reading the quotes below is obviously not very sincere or very serious about following Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY

INTIMATE CONNECTION WITH THEM

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Pradyumna 02/17/68: "Regarding Bhakti Puri Tirtha Maharaja, they are my God-brothers and should be shown respect. But you should not have any intimate connection with them as they have gone against the orders of my Guru Maharaja."

NO POSSIBILITY OF COMPROMISE

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Narayana Maharaja 9/30/69: "Regarding the 92 section case against the Gaudiya Math, I don't think there is any possibility of compromise. Both the Bhagbazar Party [sridhar Maharaja's group] and Mayapur party [Tirtha Maharaja's group] have unlawfully usurped the missionary institution of Srila Prabhupada, and whenever they will talk of a compromise, it means another complication."

MY FOURTH-CLASS GODBROTHERS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Hayagriva 9/14/70: "Disturbance is caused by ignorance; where there is no ignorance, there is no disturbance. The four Sannyasis may bark, but still the caravan will pass. There is every evidence that they are influenced by some of my fourth-class Godbrothers."

THEY WILL BE ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70: "Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men."

MY GODBROTHERS GAVE ME ONLY DEPRESSION

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72: "Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service."

THEY HAVE ALL BECOME SUDRAS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73: "Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple.

"So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras."

GAUDIYA MATH BOOKS SHOULD NOT

BE CIRCULATED IN OUR SOCIETY

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sukadeva 11/14/73: "Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated. Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination."

THIS IS MY INSTRUCTION TO YOU ALL

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74: "In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them."

THEIR PROPOSAL FOR COOPERATION IS A MYTH

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to aCUTANANDA 6/8/74: "You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja's camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent. Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven't done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation."

SMASHED...ON ACCOUNT OF PERSONAL AMBITIONS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Karandhara 10/8/74: "In India some of the important members they have collected huge amounts in the name of the Society and spent it luxuriously. I wanted you all my experienced disciples should manage the whole institution very cleverly without any personal ambition like ordinary materialistic men. The Gaudiya Math institution has become smashed, at least stopped its program of preaching work on account of personal ambitions."

MY GODBROTHERS ARE CONCERNED WITH POLITICS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Subala 10/15/74: "My other godbrothers they are concerned with litigations, politics, and diplomacy, so what is the pracara? As far as I am concerned I have the blessings of my guru maharaj. I do not need anything else. That is how I went to your country, just to try to carry out his order. By his blessings it has come out successful."

THEY ARE NOT EVEN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75: "Krsna sakti vina nahe krsna name pracara: 'Without Krsna's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name.' Caitanya-caritamrta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Maharaja. Just see what kind of men they are. They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaisnava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsaranam satam. This Bhagavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning. Why a Vaisnava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that 'Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti.' Why he should be envious? Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaisnava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaisnava's qualification. So Vaisnava should be envious? Just see.

So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaisnava. Vaisnava cannot be envious. Vaisnava should be: 'Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Krsna known.' That man has appreciated, that 'All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Krsna.' This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that 'This single man is keeping Krsna all over the world.' And everyone is deriding. Even Gandhi is killing Krsna. Dr. Radhakrishnan is killing. Their only business is to kill Krsna. He is also doing that, our, this Bon Maharaja. He never speaks of Krsna. His rascal, that Institute of Indian Philosophy, nobody goes to [pass] urine there. We see practically. And our temple is always filled up, five hundred men. And he is trying for the last forty years. He is simply planning: 'This will be playground. This will be this ground. This will be this ground.' And it is becoming jungle. Still, he is so envious, black snake. So one circular letter should be issued to all our center, that 'Any Bon Maharaja or anyone, his representative, should not be received.' They are envious. Yes. Quoting that. We have got several complaints like that. Satsvarupa also complained. Sometimes our order was cancelled by Bon Maharaja's propaganda."

IN THE GAUDIYA MATH POLITICS IS STILL GOING ON

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurukrpa, 9/30/75: "Why is there this politics? This is not good. If politics come, then the preaching will be stopped. That is the difficulty. As soon as politics come, everything is spoiled. In the Gaudiya Math the politics is still going on. My Guru Maharaja left in 1936, and now it is 1976, so after 40 years the litigation is still going on. Do not come to this."

PLEASE AVOID MY GODBROTHERS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75: "So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them."

THEY ARE DRESSING LIKE VAISNAVA,

AND THEY ARE SO ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77: "There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning."

THESE PEOPLE ARE ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Vrindaban 5/24/77: "If somebody thinks, 'Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him, no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaisnava, they are ferocious. They have not acquired the qualification of Vaisnava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress."

"[Krishna consciousness] is simple for the simple, but it is very hard for the crooked." (Initiation lecture by Srila Prabhupada, Boston 12/26/69)

The "simple" disciple of Srila Prabhupada will simply follow his or her spiritual master's instructions, and refuse to associate with any of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or godnephews. The "crooked" disciple, on the other hand, finds so many excuses to try and rationalize such forbidden association.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[CCC]

 

I like fairy tales. Do you have any others? I especially like fairy tales about trolls.

 

770422r3.bom Conversations

Prabhupada: He cannot make any comment. These are facts. Two parties there were. One party, to use guru as their instrument for self-aggrandizement, and another party left guru. So both of them are offenders. This Kunja Babu, this Tirtha Maharaja's party, he wanted to enjoy senses through guru. And the Bagh Bazaar party, they left.

Tamala Krsna: Vasudeva.

Prabhupada: So both of them are severe offenders.

Tamala Krsna: What about Sridhara Maharaja?

Prabhupada: SRIDHARA MAHARAJA BELONGED TO THE BAGH BAZAAR PARTY. And I was living aloof. My Guru Maharaja approved. He said, "It is better that he is aloof from them."

Tamala Krsna: He could understand that his disciples were not...

Prabhupada: No, he was very sorry. AT THE LAST STAGE HE WAS DISGUSTED.

72-08-26. Letter: Gaurasundara

All along I HAVE BEEN DISCOURAGED IN EVERY WAY BY MY GODBROTHERS, but still I have stuck to my duty, keeping my Spiritual Master always in front.

72-09-09. Letter: Krsna dasa

MY GODBROTHERS ALWAYS DISCOURAGED ME BUT I DID NOT GIVE UP, I am doing my duty and always keeping my spiritual master in front. Even there is some difficulty or hardship, or even my godbrothers may not cooperate or there may be fighting, still, I must perform my duty to my spiritual master and not become discouraged and go away, that is my weakness.

760618rc.tor Conversations

Prabhupada: Daily night. And he was shocked. ONE OF MY GAUDIYA MATHA GODBROTHERS, BIG, HE BECAME THE HEAD OF THIS BHAG BAZAAR GAUDIYA MATHA. So his wife was debauched, and she was bringing new paramour, and the child protested.

Pusta Krsna: New?

Prabhupada: Paramour. And the boy, he was ten years or twelve years old, he could understand: "Who is this man?" So he protested and said, "I shall tell all these things to my father." And he was killed.

Pusta Krsna: The boy was killed?

Prabhupada: By the mother.

Hari-sauri: She murdered him?

Prabhupada: Yes. Killed means given poison. And the father, that is, my Godbrother, seeing this, he also took poison. This is the end of Gaudiya Matha scandal. He was also one of the trustees. This Tirtha Maharaja was a trustee, and another Godbrother and this man. In the beginning, they were made trustees. In the beginning, Prabhupada was to undergo surgical operation. So he was a little nervous, that "I may die." So he made a scrap paper, that "In case I die, these three disciples will be trustees of the Gaudiya Matha Institute." That's all. So this Kunja Babu kept this. There are many long histories. SO ONE OF THE SO-CALLED TRUSTEES WAS THIS VASUDEVA. So he died, his end was like this.

Pusta Krsna: His son was killed, isn't it?

Prabhupada: His wife was a regular prostitute, and she killed her child, and on this shock, he took poison and died.

Pusta Krsna: He killed himself, oh.

Prabhupada: Naturally, he became shocked, that "This is my family life--the wife is prostitute and son is killed. What is the value of my life?" This was his spiritual realization. Just see. (laughs) AND HE WAS MADE THE CHIEF, AND ONE OF THE SUPPORTER WAS SRIDHARA MAHARAJA.

Pusta Krsna: Vasudeva Sridhara?

Prabhupada: No, no. He was made chief. Guru Maharaja did not make him chief. But after his passing away, some of our Godbrothers voted him chief.

Pusta Krsna: Am I mis...? You had told me once, I'm not certain. Maybe I made a mistake. YOU SAID THAT VASUDEVA, IT WAS KNOWN FACT THAT HE WAS HOMOSEX?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: Vasudeva.

Prabhupada: HE WAS HOMOSEX AND SEX, EVERYTHING.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada's Viraha Astaka 1958

 

2) Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva, disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united, and thereby created a scandalous fiasco. The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your temples.

3) Is there a single temple to be found where your instructions are still being followed? As it is said: "punar musiko bhava"- Everyone has "again become a mouse."

4) The lion's food has been stolen away by the deceptive tricks of the jackal Now caught in Maya's mighty clutches everyone is reduced to wailing and weeping.

 

 

The Gaudia Math politics

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Subala 10/15/74:

"My other godbrothers they are concerned with litigations, politics, and diplomacy, so what is the pracara? As far as I am concerned I have the blessings of my guru maharaj. I do not need anything else. That is how I went to your country, just to try to carry out his order. By his blessings it has come out successful."

"Why is there this politics? This is not good. If politics come, then the preaching will be stopped. That is the difficulty. As soon as politics come, everything is spoiled. In the Gaudiya Math the politics is still going on. My Guru Maharaja left in 1936, and now it is 1976, so after 40 years the litigation is still going on. Do not come to this." (S.P Letter to Gurukrpa swami, 30/9/75)

"You are right that politics should be avoided. In my personal life I did not participate in the political diplomacy of my Godbrothers. I was simply thinking how to fulfil the order of my Guru Maharaja." (S.P Letter to Gangamayi devi dasi, 18/10/74)

 

"A person who cannot keep his faith in the words of his spiritual master but acts independently never receives the authority to chant the holy name of the Lord. It is said in the Vedas" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23):

 

 

yasya deve para bhaktir - yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah - prakasante mahatmanah

 

"Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed." This Vedic injunction is very important, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu supported it by His personal behavior. Believing in the words of His spiritual master, He introduced the sankirtana movement, just as the present Krishna consciousness movement was started with belief in the words of our spiritual master. He wanted to preach, we believed in his words and tried somehow or other to fulfill them, and now this movement has become successful all over the world. Therefore faith in the words of the spiritual master and in the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the secret of success.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu never disobeyed the orders of His spiritual master and stopped propagating the sankirtana movement.

Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami, at the time of his passing away, ordered all his disciples to work conjointly to preach the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world. Later, however, some self-interested, foolish disciples disobeyed his orders. Each one of them wanted to become head of the mission, and they fought in the courts, neglecting the order of the spiritual master, and the entire mission was defeated. We are not proud of this; however, the truth must be explained. We believed in the words of our spiritual master and started in a humble way --in a helpless way-- but due to the spiritual force of the order of the supreme authority, this movement has become successful." (C.C Adi Lila 7.95-96)

[Guruvani]

 

I like fairy tales. Do you have any others? I especially like fairy tales about trolls.

 

It's like crying over spilled milk.

Once the milk is spilled no amount of whining is going to save the milk.

 

This old refrain about the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada gets nauseating after hearing the same damn crap for 35 years.

 

Jesus freaking Christ......................... this crap is enough to make a person sick.

 

The Hare Krishna movement has become an insane asylum.

 

Blaspheming Vaishnavas has now become "bona fide".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It appears the moderators failed to see the point behind my previous humorous response to this, so let me be more blunt.

 

Nobody likes to be told that they are a child, but we are almost all of us here spiritual children.

 

Sometimes a parent will tell their child a half-truth or even a downright lie for the child's own good (or simply for the parent's relief). For instance, if a child frequently gets out of bed at night to prowl around the house, a parent might tell the child that there's a monster under their bed which will get them if they leave the bed at night.

 

So, while I cannot claim to understand Srila Prabhupada's motivations, can we not consider the possibility that his earlier admonitions to avoid associating with his Godbrothers was along this line?

 

It's also well-documented that Srila Prabhupada *did*, in his later pastimes, advise his disciples (especially the more advanced leaders) to take the instruction of at least one of his Godbrothers.

 

 

Prabhupada's Godbrothers are not my siksa gurus because Prabhupada said us that they are offenders and are contaminated by impersonalism, really i don't want to read theirs books just to take care of my spiritual life. So I think that to be a siksa guru is not a cheap thing, anyways for me all people who has helped me in developing my spiritual life are siksas.

[Admin5]

 

It appears the moderators failed to see the point behind my previous humorous response to this, so let me be more blunt.

 

 

We did not mean to selectively remove your reply and leave the post you were replying to. It seems the post you were replying to was post number 8 on an earlier page.

 

The thread was going off course and would lead to people feeling insulted. The posts removed were numbers 25-30 (where we thought the thread started to take that turn). We will restore them, if you want to reply to any of them. If not, they will be removed again.

[Pita das]

my humble opinion is that in ISKCON the siska of Srila Prabhupada is most vauleble and important for ISKCON'S health the diksa of whom is connecting the new devottee with Srila Prabhupadas instructions is a formality .

Because ISKCON has it the other way around there has been much suffering.

To quote my godbrother Teajeas Prabhu "when you have 100% purity why be intrested in 5 to 10 %".

[theist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Guruvani

The Gaudiya acharyas were caught in a delicate balancing act of trying to make Krishna bhakti relevant and acceptable to all castes and classes.

As such, their instructions might sometimes seems contradictory in that in some parts they address the outcastes and in some parts they address caste brahmins and their attachment to smriti principles.

No doubt, it is a task to sort out the truth even after such elaborate explanations that have been rendered by the Gaudiya acharyas and even the Saraswata Gaudiya acharyas.

So, when going through the shastric conclusions of the acharyas we have to be mindful that the acharyas were trying to accomodate the conditioning of all classes of souls when they presented the Krishna consciousness philosophy.

It a very complicated task to make Krishna consicousness relevant to both caste brahmans and outcastes at the same time.

So, try to find the part that is relevant to you and strikes your inner chord.

Don't get hung up on the parts that were geared for neutralizing the attacks of the caste Goswamis.

Take the part that relates to you and leave the other part for those it pertains to.

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Gotta agree with that sentiment. That approach has helped me a lot in keeping my sanity in trying to sort out all of the transcendental contradictions in Krsna Consciousness.

-------------------------

My sentiment also. Very nice post. This is the Guruvani I appreciate very much.

[theist]

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<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

To be delivered means to be liberated from our bondage to matter and to be delivered to Krsna as His loving servant.

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that is a very broad category of existence and a very wide time range.

-----------

Kulapavana,

I don't understand your answer. Deliverance is meant in this way.

 

In the Age of Kali, the sankirtana-yajna (the chanting of the names of God) is recommended by the Vedic scriptures, and this transcendental system was introduced by Lord Caitanya for the deliverance of all men in this age. Sankirtana-yajna and Krishna consciousness go well together. Lord Krishna in His devotional form (as Lord Caitanya) is mentioned in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.32) as follows, with special reference to the sankirtana-yajna:

krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam

sangopangastra-parshadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

"In this Age of Kali, people who are endowed with sufficient intelligence will worship the Lord, who is accompanied by His associates, by performance of sankirtana-yajna." Other yajnas prescribed in the Vedic literatures are not easy to perform in this Age of Kali, but the sankirtana-yajna is easy and sublime for all purposes, as recommended in Bhagavad-gita also (9.14).

 

The Holy Name is complete in all respects. It does not need to be propped up by any other religious or social ritual or tradition.

[theist]

 

According to one Gaudiya Vaisnava biography, Haridasa Thakur took birth in a brahmana family. His parents passed away when he was a small child and hence was raised by a pious muslim family.

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That is a pretty weak presentation. Do you accept that statement or are you just quoting for some other reason? If you don't accept it why quote it? Could be true as far as I know but not in accord with what I have heard so far.

 

In any case my more sopecific point was that Vaisnavism is not dependent on Hinduism being as it is really refers to the activity of the liberated soul in relationship to Sri Krsna. Vaisnavism is intergral to the soul itself and independent of any religious or philosophical system.

[theist]

Please don't hijack this thread into another friggin' argument about Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers.

[Kulapavana]

 

That is a pretty weak presentation. Do you accept that statement or are you just quoting for some other reason? If you don't accept it why quote it? Could be true as far as I know but not in accord with what I have heard so far.

 

I believe this information about Haridasa Thakura is likely to be true or at the very least signifies that there are varying opinions in that matter among Vaishnavas.

[Kulapavana]

Regarding this verse from Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadishu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradikshitanam tu mantra-devarcanadishu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

 

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly."

 

This verse actually seems to be talking about twice-born (dvija) persons, not merely brahmanas and conveys a meaning that only those who received the mantra diksa can fully and properly honor and take advantage of the mantra worshiping the holy name.

 

That does not mean persons who chant the holy names without following rules and regulations (as Mahaprabhu says in the earlier quote) cannot be delivered (whatever that nebulous word means). In other words, to take FULL advantage of the holy name one must follow the proper Pancharatrik process (including upanayana and/or Pancharatrik diksa), but even without following that process one can obtain immeasurable benefit.

[Kulapavana]

 

The Hare Krishna movement has become an insane asylum.

 

Blaspheming Vaishnavas has now become "bona fide".

 

How very true!

 

These lunatics will praise some wino off the street for coming to the sunday feast for some free food and blaspheme very advanced devotees who spent their entire lives serving Krsna... How can Mahaprabhu support such nonsense? He doesn't, and that is why their preaching has no effect.

[Kulapavana]

 

The Holy Name is complete in all respects. It does not need to be propped up by any other religious or social ritual or tradition.

 

Yes, the Holy Name is complete in all respects, but you are NOT. The Pancharatrik help is for you, not for the Name.

Why do we need to follow the 4 regs if the Name is complete? Because it helps US to become purified. Same with mantra diksa.

[theist]

 

Yes, the Holy Name is complete in all respects, but you are NOT. The Pancharatrik help is for you, not for the Name.

Why do we need to follow the 4 regs if the Name is complete? Because it helps US to become purified. Same with mantra diksa.

 

That is true but not the point. No problem as long as you don't start insisting that mantra diksa is essential for proper chanting of the Name. Much confusion has come from people not understanding the difference between the word helpful and the word essential.

 

So far Guruvani has given the most satisfactory explanation for Jiva Gosvami's quote in question. Rather it is completely true in this specific instance I don't know but it makes sense in general.

[theist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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That is a pretty weak presentation. Do you accept that statement or are you just quoting for some other reason? If you don't accept it why quote it? Could be true as far as I know but not in accord with what I have heard so far.

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I believe this information about Haridasa Thakura is likely to be true or at the very least signifies that there are varying opinions in that matter among Vaishnavas.

----------

 

That is exactly what I mean by weak.

[CCC]

 

It appears the moderators failed to see the point behind my previous humorous response to this, so let me be more blunt.

 

Nobody likes to be told that they are a child, but we are almost all of us here spiritual children.

 

Sometimes a parent will tell their child a half-truth or even a downright lie for the child's own good (or simply for the parent's relief). For instance, if a child frequently gets out of bed at night to prowl around the house, a parent might tell the child that there's a monster under their bed which will get them if they leave the bed at night.

 

So, while I cannot claim to understand Srila Prabhupada's motivations, can we not consider the possibility that his earlier admonitions to avoid associating with his Godbrothers was along this line?

 

It's also well-documented that Srila Prabhupada *did*, in his later pastimes, advise his disciples (especially the more advanced leaders) to take the instruction of at least one of his Godbrothers.

 

where are the proofs? what advanced leaders? the eleven?

 

Prabhupada said my godbrothers are offenders, envious, never helped me in the preaching mission, and so on, so please avoid them because they will harm us (and they did). those are not my words, I am not speculating, are Prabhupada's Words, If you don't like his words maybe is because you love more his godbrothers than him.

 

and you think that Prabhupada lies us or give us an half-truth. Narayan Maharaj used to say that, He says that Prabhupada give us just abc, He says that Prabhupada is a servant of Mahavishnu and so on, is a big lie.

 

Have you read all Prabhupada's books studied them, you know them perfectly to say that He has gave us just abc or and half-truth?

 

or are you eager to hear Krsna's confidential pastimes?

 

A pure devote speaks straightforward, He has not the tendency to cheat others, maybe you think that Prabhupada tricked us, but that is a reflex of the tendency in your own mind to cheat others.

 

 

Is clearly stated in his letters and conversation - and an official document signed by him- that we should avoid his godbrothers. well after reading all his letters and documents (hundreds)about this issue if one is not convinced, well that means that that person has no faith In Prabhupada and needs knowledge in others sources, is simple.

 

I dont' speak english well, so if you think that sometimes I am speaking rudely is due to that, sorry.

 

Hari Bol

[Guruvani]

 

According to one Gaudiya Vaisnava biography, Haridasa Thakur took birth in a brahmana family. His parents passed away when he was a small child and hence was raised by a pious muslim family.

<!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_19214--><!-- THE POST -->

 

I don't see what difference that makes.

One's birth is only the deciding criteria in asura-varnashrama of the caste brahmans.

If a person is raised as Muslim, educated a Musim and fed like a Muslim, then whatever his Hindu birth does not make any tangible difference.

 

For all practical purposes Haridas was a Muslim.

I have never heard the story before about him being born in a brahman family, but even if it is true I don't see what difference that makes.

 

As well, the brahman family could have as well just been brahman in the asura varanasrama of caste by birth.

 

I don't see how the story of Haridas taking birth in a Hindu family really makes that much difference.

 

But, as best I can recall the boys over at the siddha-pranali forum were claiming that Haridas did get diksha.

So, it depends on who you want to believe I guess.

 

The way I heard it was that Haridas was "admitted" into Vaishnavism by Sri Advaita Acharya.

I need to try and find that reference.

I think I saw that in CC by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Ultimately, whether one is formally initiated or simply admitted into Vaishnavism by a Vaishnava the results will be the same for the serious practitioner.

[suchandra]

 

where are the proofs? what advanced leaders? the eleven?

 

Prabhupada said my godbrothers are offenders, envious, never helped me in the preaching mission, and so on, so please avoid them because they will harm us . those are not my words, I am not speculating, are Prabhupada's Words, If you don't like his words maybe is because you love more his godbrothers than him.

 

and you think that Prabhupada lies us or give us an half-truth. Narayan Maharaj used to say that, He says that Prabhupada give us just abc, He says that Prabhupada is a servant of Mahavishnu and so on, is a big lie.

 

Have you read all Prabhupada's books studied them, you know them perfectly to say that He has gave us just abc or and half-truth?

 

or are you eager to hear Krsna's confidential pastimes?

 

A pure devote speaks straightforward, He has not the tendency to cheat others, maybe you think that Prabhupada tricked us, but that is a reflex of the tendency in your own mind to cheat others.

 

 

Is clearly stated in his letters and conversation - and an official document signed by him- that we should avoid his godbrothers. well after reading all his letters and documents (hundreds)about this issue if one is not convinced, well that means that that person has no faith In Prabhupada and needs knowledge in others sources, is simple.

 

I dont' speak english well, so if you think that sometimes I am speaking rudely is due to that, sorry.

 

Hari Bol

 

Thanks CCS, good points - and as Prabhupada says, "Rascals are concerned with the grammar.The actual workers are concerned with the thoughts" (Jaipur, January 19, 1972 ), don't worry about perfect spelling.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Prabhupada said my godbrothers are offenders, envious, never helped me in the preaching mission, and so on, so please avoid them because they will harm us (and they did).

 

Hari Bol

 

ISKCON was devastated by his leading disciples not his Godbrothers, so you can stop with the mis-information campaign already.

 

Once ISKCON gets shattered by the leading devotees the whole argument against the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada has no meaning anymore.

 

ISKCON was already destroyed by ISKCON members so there is nothing left for the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada to harm.

 

Besides that, in his last days, Srila Prabhupada said the war with his Godbrothers is over.

 

If you want to keep the war alive then that goes against the will of Srila Prabhupada and is a false campaign.

 

Once the members of ISKCON get done feeding on the carcass of a dead ISKCON like a pack of Lions, then what is the harm if some vultures get some leftovers?

[suchandra]

 

ISKCON was devastated by his leading disciples not his Godbrothers.........

 

Devastated might be a bit exaggerated, pics of the new ISKCON Tirupati Temple, at Life of a Hare Krishna girl,

http://satoxi.com/2007/04/08/iskcon-tirupati-2007/

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You so nicely assembled the less-favorable quotes of Srila Prabhupada regarding his Godbrothers (and there's a big difference between "avoid them altogether" and "show them respect, but don't get too intimate"). Why not dig up all the quotes from Srila Prabhupada in praise of his Godbrothers? Since you have no danger of becoming too intimate with the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada, just how will you show them your respect?

 

If this topic has been rehashed to death on these forums, perhaps theist or some other kind soul can point out exactly where the discussions are.

 

I'm not eager to hear Krishna's intimate pastimes (I barely have any eagerness to hear of Krishna at all).

 

Srila Prabhupada is my spiritual Great-Uncle--how can you ask me if I love my Father better than my Great-Uncle? What a distasteful question!!

 

I received Hari Nama (not yet diksha) from the hand-picked successor of one of Srila Prabhupada's most cherised Godbrothers. Gurudeva *lived* with Srila Prabhupada in Calcutta for some time and was the first distributor of Back to Godhead magazine. So, when Srila Prabhupada said his Godbrothers were not helping him with his mission, he was very obviously not referring to Gurudev or Param-Gurudev.

 

I have *not* read all of Srila Prabhupada's books (though I probably sat through a good portion of them in classes from age 5 to 7 or so). It's said that one should study Srimad Bhagavatam from a pure devotee or his representatives. I have ample opportunity to do so, but fail to avail myself of that opportunity. I *have* been reading the books compiled from the lectures of Param-Gurudev and find infinite nourishment from them.

 

Are you studying Srimad Bhagavatam in the association of a pure devotee or his representatives, or are you trying to teach yourself Calculus and quantum physics from a textbook?

 

I'm not saying that everything we need is not contained in Srila Prabhupada's books (everything is there). I'm also not saying he lied to anybody.

 

I *am* saying that most of us are way too impure to have any entry into even the comentaries of His Divine Grace, let alone that on which he is commenting.

 

If you look at the transcripts of Srila Prabhupada speaking, it's obvious how learned and fixed he is. It's also evident how much he struggled to make himself clear to us and how thick we can be.

 

It's also clear that Srila Prabhupada made adjustments based on time, place and circumstance. He used to perform marriage ceremonies for his disciples. After a while he stopped doing that (out of disgust, perhaps?). He delegated initiations.

 

Whatever Srila Prabhupada says is in our best interest. Still, as has been pointed out many times before here--cherry-picking quotes from Srila Prabhupada to back up one's personal agenda is not any service to Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

where are the proofs? what advanced leaders? the eleven?

 

Prabhupada said my godbrothers are offenders, envious, never helped me in the preaching mission, and so on, so please avoid them because they will harm us . those are not my words, I am not speculating, are Prabhupada's Words, If you don't like his words maybe is because you love more his godbrothers than him.

 

and you think that Prabhupada lies us or give us an half-truth. Narayan Maharaj used to say that, He says that Prabhupada give us just abc, He says that Prabhupada is a servant of Mahavishnu and so on, is a big lie.

 

Have you read all Prabhupada's books studied them, you know them perfectly to say that He has gave us just abc or and half-truth?

 

or are you eager to hear Krsna's confidential pastimes?

 

A pure devote speaks straightforward, He has not the tendency to cheat others, maybe you think that Prabhupada tricked us, but that is a reflex of the tendency in your own mind to cheat others.

 

 

Is clearly stated in his letters and conversation - and an official document signed by him- that we should avoid his godbrothers. well after reading all his letters and documents (hundreds)about this issue if one is not convinced, well that means that that person has no faith In Prabhupada and needs knowledge in others sources, is simple.

 

I dont' speak english well, so if you think that sometimes I am speaking rudely is due to that, sorry.

 

Hari Bol

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada said my godbrothers are offenders, envious, never helped me in the preaching mission, and so on, so please avoid them because they will harm us...

 

And on his deathbed Srila Prabhupada sincerely and tearfully apologized for saying these things and asked for his Godbrother's forgiveness, but somehow people like you chose to ignore that fact because it ruins your fairytale idea of Prabhupada.