Is Karma Inefficient

[gramo]

The notion that all actions have consequences has been so well accepted in the West that teachings about karma are often readily embraced. The fact that all results are related to prior causes seems obvious and self-evident — that is, until we realize that many consequences don't come to fruition immediately and that major life-events may be rooted in actions either in past lives or so long ago in this life that we no longer remember them.

 

"How can we learn this way?" we might ask. "It seems so unfair." Wouldn't it be more efficient if all effects were immediate? After all, in training a dog, if you wait days to reward or punish it for its behavior, it will never connect those effects to its earlier actions. Wouldn't we learn faster if we met the natural consequences of our behavior immediately?

 

The observation is sound that when effects are too long in coming, we lose the thread of their connections as well as their relationships to what produced them. But as we look deeper at what it means to really "learn" something, we see that coming to understand something fully demands levels of attention we rarely give to our situations. In considering whether or not karmic operations are fair or efficient, it can be helpful to look at the question from different perspectives.

 

Certainly, when we train animals or small children who can't yet reason, we need to make clear the relationship between an action and its result. Until they get it, we keep them on a very short leash; the more they understand the correlation between causes and effects, the longer a leash we give them. With our children, we're not only helping develop good impulse control, but sowing seeds for later decision making.

 

In the beginning we are doing the thinking for them, but as growing human beings we are supposed to be developing our mental and intuitive functions. That is, we don't want to act like trained seals who respond the same way all the time; we're learning how to discriminate, think for ourselves, make choices and judgments — and a very good way to learn is to make mistakes and adjust our behavior.

 

It's true that sometimes we are ignorant of wrongdoing, but much of the time we are warned or reprimanded immediately (think of teachers and parents disciplining and punishing their kids) and we still don't always change our behavior. One has to be ready to change. Consider all the ills of cigarette smoking — breathes there a smoker who can't list the dangers?

 

Again, sometimes we make mental changes quickly but it takes time to adjust emotionally, as when we suddenly discover a few facts which contradict a lie we had long believed. Meanwhile, our body has the habit of reacting against something which we now know to be untrue. Stomach tightening, blood pressure rising, adrenaline dispersing, all for an ancient position we no longer even hold. We're not always very efficient at adapting to the paradoxes and confusions life brings our way; perhaps this is a key to why it seems to us that karma doesn't itself act very efficiently.

 

We might also consider that forgetting our past behavior is sometimes a blessing. By not remembering all the details of our past lives, we are protected from being overwhelmed by old regrets, grudges, and prejudices as well as from memories of past successes and failures. We need not hide from old enemies or past creditors, nor get confused by the tremendous changes and increase of information as the culture evolves. Memories of a more primitive past life might be quite shocking to our present sensibilities. Imagine how much therapy we'd all need!

 

If we maintained memories of everything from this life as well as all our past lives, we'd have a huge and chaotic amount of information to manage, with loyalties being pulled between multiple families. We are able to focus on today and what is important now without being flooded by unhappy memories (not to mention untold tragedies) or paralyzed by feelings of guilt or dread of karma-to-come from old mistakes. Besides, it gives us a better chance to make friends of former foes.

 

Another point: as in secular law, ignorance of universal principles is not a valid excuse for breaking universal laws. We may as well accept that, on various levels, delayed consequences are an integral part of how our life works. For example, if children aren't taught dental hygiene, rotten teeth will result — but not immediately. Sure we would more quickly learn to brush our teeth after every meal if our mouths hurt until we brushed, but this doesn't happen; tooth or gum pain doesn't occur till months or years later. Is this delayed effect a symptom of an inefficient universe? Consider too that while thoughts have force and the impact of our hurtful or helpful thoughts is certain, mental power doesn't instantly play out in the physical realm. Its results unfold variously and indirectly. In the same way, most crimes aren't discovered in the act of commission, so time is needed for the perpetrator to be brought to justice.

 

A final thought has to do with how illusory our concept of time is: maybe the effects are actually immediate but we only perceive them happening later . . . is this too bizarre?

 

It sees all things as in the present? Maybe our spiritual soul does know immediately, or gets the reverberation of all the effects immediately, and perhaps our task is to learn to listen better. Leaving aside the mentally ill, most adults know when they are doing something wrong. Down deep inside we know. And when we act against our own knowing, it takes some complicated dancing to harmonize all the hurtful rhythms we've put in motion. These may seem to us to take lifetimes to play out, but maybe that's just part of our personal illusion. Perhaps when we become more efficient at living our lives as awakened, integrated, and kindly beings, karma will seem less unfair and inefficient to us. And more immediate.

[gHari]

After being punched in the nose, I learn that it's not nice to punch people in the nose. It may have been ten years ago that I punched my brother in the nose; still I now know it is not a good thing.

 

There is likely a long long list of reactions one must pass through, each lesson taking a varying length of time to orchestrate. So the simple logistics of streaming them through our consciousness must be unfathomable. It is really little wonder that they require lifetimes to schedule, since even during reactions we generate more required reactions.

 

In order to believe that we really are the controllers of the world so very much ignorance must have passed by our consciousness lifetime after lifetime. On the way back from all these attachments, it is not unreasonable to assume that this will be a tremendously long time too. Just clambering up to the human form must have been a grind; yet still we want to kill and taste blood like we did as animals. Some habits are hard to break when the attachment is so strong and the conditioning period so very long.

[suchandra]

 

Perhaps when we become more efficient at living our lives as awakened, integrated, and kindly beings, karma will seem less unfair and inefficient to us. And more immediate.

 

Looks like you see karma as some separate energy acting upon us?

Something enforced upon us from hidden source? But isnt karma the very quality of this material energy, although hidden, just like an iceberg has its huge unseen part, but this unseen part cannot be seen as something separate - it only exists because of this part of the iceberg we can see?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

"How can we learn this way?" we might ask. "It seems so unfair." Wouldn't it be more efficient if all effects were immediate?

 

You misunderstand the main purpose of this world. We are here to attempt become happy independently. Learning is a very secondary byproduct of our frustrations with the first priority.

 

The world has it's own way of manifesting the results. You cant plant a mango seed and expect to get fruit the next day. This is not the way it works. It may not be the most efficient way in our opinion, but it is THE WAY of this world.

[theist]

Good topic, nice thread. I agree with what has been said so far as people come to the question from varying angles. Let me try to add one more.

 

The reality of karmic law playing out over many lifetimes cannot be taken in very deeply until we start to perceive of ourselves as spiritsoul and not this present body.

 

It makes no sense to believe in karma without believing in reincarnation. And it makes no sense to believe in reincarnation unless we consider the self to be something beyond the physical form.

 

It is when we begin to understand through hearing and seeing through the eyes of educated intelligence and spiritually directed intuition that the nature and truth of karmic law hits home.

[gramo]

The universal law of karma, may seem simple when applied to physical happenings; but it becomes exceedingly complex when we try to follow the intricate meshing of karmic strands of even one person, let alone that of the billions of our fellow humans, each with ages of past experience. "Judge not that ye be not judged" –

The question, what good does it do to punish a person in this life when he doesn't know what he has done wrong in a former one, is a puzzler. It might seem simpler if we did, for if we knew where we had gone astray we wouldn't object so strenuously to meeting the consequences. Also, we could see where to make amends.

The belief that justice is at the root of life is a very old one, but by degrees it has been lost sight of by those who did not find it convenient. When we see criminals are prospering, we doubt our belief in karma. In old age, everybody suffers due various physical malfunctioning. Is it also the result of karma ?

Every Government gives different punishment to the criminals as they found suitable for their people, religion, country, time etc.. For instance, in India you will find different laws for different state, religion, etc. The judges are giving verdict (based on past verdicts) where they can not measure the sins accurately. Is karma considers the punishment which is already given by the governments ? Under various circumstances, you can not consider the Judge’s verdict as final because he is also human and can make mistakes in judging the crime.

From the emotional and physical angle, the same punishment for different persons may not be same due to their different mental and physical abilities. Secondly, if a person do several wrong actions, he will not be able to identify the reaction of his every wrong action. So how he will improvise himself unless he gets immediate reaction for his wrong action. He may not realize whether it is a wrong action. There are many confusions. For instance, if a crowd throws a stone at a single person, he will die but the sin of every individuals from the crowd is just throwing a stone for which they will get the similar reaction of throwing a stone in return.

Sometimes, the virtuous samskars accumulated on account of our past karmas also produce unhappy events. Virtuous karmas also act as shields to ward off sinful temptations. The former do not permit the sinful tendencies to dominate and offer stiff resistance. Many a times commitment of sin is foiled by some unforeseen obstacle. If a thief break his leg while going for theft, it should be taken as a consequence of his past virtuous karmas.

There are fleeting moments of wisdom in life when man thinks that life is extremely valuable and must be used for achieving some lofty objective, but soon thereafter attractions of the world drag him back to the erstwhile lowly routine of animal-like existence. Through sufferings, God exerts a strong pull to extricate the devotee from the self-created quagmire of ignorance. Mishaps wake us up from our slumber in ignorance and darkness.

Those who work hard for moral or social upliftment of the society and meticulously follow their course of duty, face stupendous problems, hardships and lack of resources. They also have to face antagonism of people who find such activities detrimental to their vested interests. Besides, they are tormented by unscrupulous in many ways. Persons treading the royal highway of righteousness have to face hardships at each step.

Innocent persons may be found suffering because of unfair ideologies or oppression by others. Any one may become a victim of exploitation, suppression and injustice. The exploiter has to face the consequences for his karmas in due course of time, but the sufferer should not take such trials as outcome of his prarabdha.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Greek Two-Valued Logic cannot really be applied to karma. I don't see karma in terms of punishment/reward, good/bad, etc., simply action and reaction.

 

Good and bad exist only in the subjective plane. In the super-subjective plane, there is only the Sweet Will of the Lord--nothing else.

 

Think of karma as a pendulum. It swings one way and then back the other way. Can we say left is "good" and right is "bad"? What if we walk around to the other side of the pendulum? Then, left and right have been reversed.

 

What we may interpret as "bad" karma may, in fact be a blessing. Conversely, what if I win a Ferrari one day and then crash it the next, killing my body in the process? Was winning the Ferrari "good" karma or "bad" karma? We seldom have the perspective (time, as you say, being a limiting factor in our perception) to see the full picture.

 

Also, as Suchandra Prabhu observes--Karma isn't "punishment" any more than gravity is punishment. Karma is a fundamental law of nature, not an arbitrary system of punishment and reward imposed upon us. It's just the way things *are*.

 

 

The universal law of karma, may seem simple when applied to physical happenings; but it becomes exceedingly complex when we try to follow the intricate meshing of karmic strands of even one person, let alone that of the billions of our fellow humans, each with ages of past experience. "Judge not that ye be not judged" –

The question, what good does it do to punish a person in this life when he doesn't know what he has done wrong in a former one, is a puzzler. It might seem simpler if we did, for if we knew where we had gone astray we wouldn't object so strenuously to meeting the consequences. Also, we could see where to make amends.

The belief that justice is at the root of life is a very old one, but by degrees it has been lost sight of by those who did not find it convenient. When we see criminals are prospering, we doubt our belief in karma. In old age, everybody suffers due various physical malfunctioning. Is it also the result of karma ?

Every Government gives different punishment to the criminals as they found suitable for their people, religion, country, time etc.. For instance, in India you will find different laws for different state, religion, etc. The judges are giving verdict (based on past verdicts) where they can not measure the sins accurately. Is karma considers the punishment which is already given by the governments ? Under various circumstances, you can not consider the Judge’s verdict as final because he is also human and can make mistakes in judging the crime.

From the emotional and physical angle, the same punishment for different persons may not be same due to their different mental and physical abilities. Secondly, if a person do several wrong actions, he will not be able to identify the reaction of his every wrong action. So how he will improvise himself unless he gets immediate reaction for his wrong action. He may not realize whether it is a wrong action. There are many confusions. For instance, if a crowd throws a stone at a single person, he will die but the sin of every individuals from the crowd is just throwing a stone for which they will get the similar reaction of throwing a stone in return.

Sometimes, the virtuous samskars accumulated on account of our past karmas also produce unhappy events. Virtuous karmas also act as shields to ward off sinful temptations. The former do not permit the sinful tendencies to dominate and offer stiff resistance. Many a times commitment of sin is foiled by some unforeseen obstacle. If a thief break his leg while going for theft, it should be taken as a consequence of his past virtuous karmas.

There are fleeting moments of wisdom in life when man thinks that life is extremely valuable and must be used for achieving some lofty objective, but soon thereafter attractions of the world drag him back to the erstwhile lowly routine of animal-like existence. Through sufferings, God exerts a strong pull to extricate the devotee from the self-created quagmire of ignorance. Mishaps wake us up from our slumber in ignorance and darkness.

Those who work hard for moral or social upliftment of the society and meticulously follow their course of duty, face stupendous problems, hardships and lack of resources. They also have to face antagonism of people who find such activities detrimental to their vested interests. Besides, they are tormented by unscrupulous in many ways. Persons treading the royal highway of righteousness have to face hardships at each step.

Innocent persons may be found suffering because of unfair ideologies or oppression by others. Any one may become a victim of exploitation, suppression and injustice. The exploiter has to face the consequences for his karmas in due course of time, but the sufferer should not take such trials as outcome of his prarabdha.

[gramo]

 

Greek Two-Valued Logic cannot really be applied to karma. I don't see karma in terms of punishment/reward, good/bad, etc., simply action and reaction.

 

Good and bad exist only in the subjective plane. In the super-subjective plane, there is only the Sweet Will of the Lord--nothing else.

 

Karma is the necessary connection between our past, present, and future. In this material world we refer many terms to express ourselves exactly and understand others point of view. When we try to understand why we are suffering, casual understanding of karma does not make us realize about every reaction (suffering) and it's related past action.

 

 

Think of karma as a pendulum. It swings one way and then back the other way. Can we say left is "good" and right is "bad"? What if we walk around to the other side of the pendulum? Then, left and right have been reversed.

 

The example pendulum is not appropriate with regards to Karma since there are many actions simultaneously taking place (even thoughts) and the time taking for every reaction is not same.

 

 

What we may interpret as "bad" karma may, in fact be a blessing. Conversely, what if I win a Ferrari one day and then crash it the next, killing my body in the process? Was winning the Ferrari "good" karma or "bad" karma? We seldom have the perspective (time, as you say, being a limiting factor in our perception) to see the full picture.

 

Also, as Suchandra Prabhu observes--Karma isn't "punishment" any more than gravity is punishment. Karma is a fundamental law of nature, not an arbitrary system of punishment and reward imposed upon us. It's just the way things *are*.

 

It is assumed that wininng lotteries or accidental deaths are the results the prarabdha( past lives) but both are results of different actions and can not be linked.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

If you try too hard to understand Karma, you're just going to end up with a headache. The basic principles are rather simple and straightforward, but the actual mechanisms involved are nearly inscrutable.

 

Better than trying to understand the inner workings of karma is endeavoring to transcend karma.

 

I'm not saying this isn't a fascinating subject on which to muse, but, like I said, quarelling with karma is like quarelling with gravity.

 

 

Karma is the necessary connection between our past, present, and future. In this material world we refer many terms to express ourselves exactly and understand others point of view. When we try to understand why we are suffering, casual understanding of karma does not make us realize about every reaction (suffering) and it's related past action.

 

 

 

The example pendulum is not appropriate with regards to Karma since there are many actions simultaneously taking place (even thoughts) and the time taking for every reaction is not same.

 

 

 

It is assumed that wininng lotteries or accidental deaths are the results the prarabdha( past lives) but both are results of different actions and can not be linked.

[gramo]

There are many Gurus who have died of diseases. Of course you can say their karma, God’s will, their mission completed or whatever. And at the end everything, it can be generalized to karma, so comes forth the generalized concept of do good karma and reap good results. Finish. We need no specialized branches of knowledge then. Again, its like saying - dude, you have got cancer, because you had bad karmas and forget the doctors. Just chant mahamantra and I promise you, you will get completely cured at the end of the month, because cancer is dark energy and mantra is light. remove darkness from your life and you will get cured.

Specific problems need specific solutions. And faith in the lord and chanting his name can go side by side. But may not necessarily be a full fledged solution in itself. One need to know why he is suffering and try to find out solution for himself.

Chant the lords name and be in the company of good people are some goody goody preaching that are ok to lead a normal balanced life. But what you are "promising" here is not exactly the solution to the person's problem. One must get to the root cause of his suffering to avoid and improvise him.

When the entire community do something wrong, one doubt whether they are really wrong. It is a matter of inclination where one’s mind behave. If a person is inclined towards crime, he is likely to apply his criminal ideas in his life and become a criminal. To make him understand what will be the consequences of committing crime is important and unless he knows about reaction of his every action, he will not be stopped from doing the crime. Similarly, every man must know about the results of his bad karma and avoid it. Just to know about law of karma and not to take it seriously, is like criminals forget about punishments and continue their old business.

Your suffering can be an eye opening or disguised push towards god realization. But at the same time, you can not grow spiritually on the death bed where you have constant threat to your life. One need to remove the obstacles from his spiritual path by knowing the reasons for his suffering in detail. A sick man will always think of his sickness and spend much of his time/attention to pray god to get rid of his sickness.

This life is not certain. Any time, any time can happen and still we do not know the exact reason. It is only the time that god has given us, not just to live, but for more than that. We have no right to deprive others from doing religious or righteous acts and claim that its their past karma. This world will change by itself, not to let the others ask questions like “why me ?” for your acts.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

There are many Gurus who have died of diseases. Of course you can say their karma, God’s will, their mission completed or whatever. And at the end everything, it can be generalized to karma,

 

Well, the Vaishnava sees Guru as being fully-surrendered to the Lord, and thus, free from the effects of karma (though Guru himself might see himself, in his humility, as enduring the results of past activities) and simply exhibiting his lila (pastimes).

 

Another consideration is that Guru is taking the karma of his/her disciples. While it is understood that the karma is taken by the Lord from Guru, still, as the karma is "processed" by Guru, it can apparently take it's toll ("apparently" being the key word since Guru is transcendental).

 

You're still talking in terms of "punishment" and karma. That's your choice, but I think the combination of karma and Christianity is liable to give you painful gas when ingested.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The example pendulum is not appropriate with regards to Karma since there are many actions simultaneously taking place (even thoughts) and the time taking for every reaction is not same.

 

No analogy (or scientific model) is perfect. For the purpose of illustration, reality is often vastly over-simplified.

 

If it helps, visualize *many* little pendulums.

 

The key is to realize that value judgements are very much dependent upon perspective. We cannot help but to view existence from a position--*our* position. Where we are influences what and how we see.

 

Applying value judgements to karma is a recipe for frustration. Truly, it is superstition.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

From Sri Guru and His Grace (page 31):

 

http://scsmath.com/books/Sri_Guru_and_His_Grace.pdf

 

 

And what will be the spiritual master’s position?

He will be well versed in the revealed truth, not in

ordinary information. Revelation in many shades has

been spread in the world from the upper realm, but

the guru must have some spacious, graphic knowledge.

He must have extensive knowledge about the revealed

truth. And he must always be practicing real spiritual

life. His activities are all connected with spirit, not

with the mundane world. He is concerned with

Brahman, the plane which can accomodate everything,

the fundamental basis of everything (brahma-nishtham).

Not that he is leading his life with any mortal, mundane

reference. He always lives in the transcendental plane

and keeps himself in connection with that plane his

whole life. Whatever he does, he will do only with

that consciousness.

 

 

 

"apparently" being the key word since Guru is transcendental