Do Western Governments Welcome Vaishnavism?

[suchandra]

Since the ongoing decline of ISKCON in the United States other Vaishnava groups seem to also get carried away in the swirl of the sinking ISKCON Titanic. From, "spreading like an epidemic" towards "eliminated like an epidemic"?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: A man from the Central Intelligence Department took initiation from me. He was asking me about the American devotees. I told him, "These are nothing but rumors. I know Swami Maharaja for a long, long time. I know him very well, and his movement is nothing but a purely spiritual movement." Actually, what they are thinking is that previously they used to send the missionaries, then they used to send the merchants, and then the army used to come and take over. But those days are no more. Though if a net of such a faith of universal religion as Gaudiya Vaisnavism could be cast throughout the world, then perhaps that could be actualized in future.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this study has been quite proper. This is what our plan is. I tell them that, "You work in this direction, and in the future everyone will recognize this movement." The American government is already saying that this movement is spreading like an epidemic. Who said this?

 

Devotee: One congressman has said that.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Who said this?

 

Srila Prabhupada: One American congressman from the Senate said this on the television. "The Hare Krishna Movement is expanding like an epidemic, and if we allow them to go on like this, then one day they will capture the government-within ten years."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: All the governments are becoming alarmed. Even this government, if the Western devotees can conquer the masses and get them to support them.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the fear of everybody.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Ultimately, it may become the "world state" religion.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Automatically it will become so; that is the idea I have.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: America was being accused of trying to make a one-state world so that, "Let there be just one state, and then there won't be any wars. If the whole world is made into one state, then there won't be any wars."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I replied to that, "You may make a one-state world. But if you make the populace into dogs, then there won't be any use, they'll just keep barking. You have to make them into human beings."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they'll still go on fighting with each other.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Right, that is their nature to fight. So first of all you have to make them human beings; that is the brahma bhuta prasannatma, sama sarvesu bhutesu.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Then, mad bhakti labhate param.

 

Srila Prabhupada: When they come to that stage, then it will be more useful; otherwise there is no hope. It is not impossible to happen.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, when there is a common center, then everybody can unite. Everybody can be harmonized. But that has to be real. If it is fictitious then there won't be any achievement.

 

Srila Prabhupada: I am hearing that the present American president, President Carter, he has some such plan and he is discussing it with Indira Gandhi. He is consulting with Indira Gandhi quite intimately.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they are accepting our broad policy. From what I hear from the radio and newspaper, it seems that their policy is becoming much more broader than before.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Besides that, they don't have any other way. Otherwise they cannot achieve what they are actually wanting-the peace through the United Nations; that cannot be achieved.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, nothing less than Krsna consciousness will be able to give them that desired peace; nowhere else will they find it.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, bhoktaram yajna tapasam, sarva loka mahesvaram. So that is what I was telling them, that, "Stop fighting and making all those legal suits; then so nicely the preaching can be done in India in every village, every town." One disadvantage with these people is the language, but still, you must have heard, wherever they are going they are getting a very good reception. My Geetar-gan-first I printed five thousand, then ten thousand, then thirty thousand, but this time we are printing one hundred thousand and they are selling very nicely. In Bengali we are printing various books-Geetar-gan, Bhagavan Ekankatha, Bhagavata Darsan. In Hindi also, we are selling many books, like at Kumbha Mela we sold many, many books.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, this is what Krsna consciousness is, and people will naturally wonder what is there in it that captured the whole world in just ten years.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Now that they are opposing it, this is a great credit.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, that's why the governments are organizing the oppositions.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are clearly mentioning that, "If they get a chance to expand unrestrictedly, then in ten years' time they'll capture the governments."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, if the mass is converted and their votes can be acquired, then the government will be captured.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and these are all young men. The young class of people have accepted it. One scholar, Dr. Stillson Judah, has already predicted that this movement will not be destroyed, because it has entered into the bones and marrows [of Western culture].

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Who is he, where is he from?

 

Srila Prabhupada: He is an American, a professor in the Berkeley University.

..................................................................................................................

Srila Sridhara Maharaja & Srila Prabhupada

Room Conversation

March 1977

[Guruvani]

ISKCON has completely discredited itself for ever being any sort of leading world organization.

Srila Prabhupada's dreams of the great ISKCON society have been shattered by the ambitions of small minds with personal ambitions.

 

ISKCON is finished.

 

The KC movement will need to re-incarnate in another form now because ISKCON is polluted.

[AncientMariner]

 

ISKCON has completely discredited itself for ever being any sort of leading world organization.

Srila Prabhupada's dreams of the great ISKCON society have been shattered by the ambitions of small minds with personal ambitions.

 

ISKCON is finished.

 

The KC movement will need to re-incarnate in another form now because ISKCON is polluted.

 

 

Yeah to be honest I think the Apocalypse will come before ISKCON becomes the worlds leading spiritual influence but that is purely speculation on my part and anything is possible especially when it comes to Krsna.

[Guruvani]

 

Yeah to be honest I think the Apocalypse will come before ISKCON becomes the worlds leading spiritual influence but that is purely speculation on my part and anything is possible especially when it comes to Krsna.

Could be.

 

But, hopefully the great spiritual movement of Mahaprabhu is much bigger than ISKCON and it's petty bureaucracy.

I am sure it is.

 

The great spiritual movement of Mahaprabhu extends well beyond the range and limitations of ISKCON.

 

Mahaprabhu is not so dull that he would invest his whole movement in a petty corperate bureaucracy like ISKCON.

 

I am sure he has some ACE in the hole and probably a multitude of options for taking forth his great spiritual movement.

 

I don't think the movement can make much headway anymore as long as devotees depend too much on ISKCON and it's defunct bureaucracy.

 

The KC movement has to move ahead and let ISKCON become the proprietor of a few temples while the spiritual current flows unobstructed by the idiotic bureaucracy of ego maniacs we know as the GBC.

[Kulapavana]

 

From, "spreading like an epidemic" towards "eliminated like an epidemic"?

 

Good comparison and an interesting quote, Suchandra-ji.

 

As a new devotee I never thought Iskcon would crumble like that - from big dreams that seemed likely to become reality just around the corner to the shadow of it's former self we have today. We were not ready for more responsibility and influence - we were too contaminated and too arrogant in our new-found pride. I'm not so sure we have chnged that much over the years...

[Guruvani]

In order for the KC movement to be taken seriously, there will need to be a break from ISKCON and a new start with a new oganization that has learned from the mistakes and misconceptions of ISKCON.

 

Myself, I have lost faith in the GBC concept.

I guess it was always meant to be the logical alternative to what becomes of a large spiritual organization after the acharya leaves, but nonetheless the GBC system has shown to have many defects that can never take the place of the acharya.

 

Personally, I think that Srila Prabhupada should have made it clear that the GBC was ONLY a managing authority and NOT a spiritual authority and that any future acharyas would have to branch-off from ISKCON and become a seperate organization.

 

I think if Srila Prabhupada would have banned any other guru than himself in ISKCON and kept the GBC as a managing authority that at least ISKCON could have maintained some stability instead of going through the melt-down that occured after his departure.

 

There really is no viable alternative to the leadership of a single acharya in an organization. Once you get more than ONE leader the whole thing breaks down.

 

I am one of the few who actually believe that Srila Prabhupada actually wanted to break-up ISKCON after his passing and so put in place a guaranteed formula for disaster which included the input of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Like the Yadava army after the passing of Lord Krishna, ISKCON had to be dismantled or at least reduced down to a whimpering vestige after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Otherwise, Tamal would have been King of the world by now!

[theist]

Devotion to God carries with it a lack of interest in accumulating needless material products. The Captalists require the populace to be addicted to useless material accumulation. The people in general are all materialy addicted already and so there is very little interest in genuine spirit life. Don't we all experience a daily struggle with this within ourselves?

 

If we can't establish full blown Krsna consciousness within ourselves how can we talk of establishing it worldwide?

[sanatan]

 

... I think if Srila Prabhupada would have banned any other guru than himself in ISKCON and kept the GBC as a managing authority that at least ISKCON could have maintained some stability instead of going through the melt-down that occured after his departure.

 

There really is no viable alternative to the leadership of a single acharya in an organization. Once you get more than ONE leader the whole thing breaks down....

 

Paramahansa Yogananda did state flatly that he was to be the last acharya for SRF, and that organization is as big a mess as ISKCON.

 

ISCKON done for? Probably not, as a minority, Hinduized organization.

 

Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the principles thereof? Irrevocably here in the USA to stay, unless the fundie Christians take over, establish a theocracy, and go on a mass murder rampage.

 

Devotees have traditionally eschewed voting; they shouldn't.

[Guruvani]

 

Paramahansa Yogananda did state flatly that he was to be the last acharya for SRF, and that organization is as big a mess as ISKCON.

 

Are there any good examples of longstanding successful spiritual organizations and if so what is their organizational structure like?

 

Any organizations that have faired well over the long-haul after the passing of the founder-leader?

 

Anything we can learn from them if so?

 

(I didn't know that Yogananda ever had a really dynamic grass-roots movement like ISKCON was - used to be)

[Arjuna Haridas]

ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism are out of the question in the USA due to the many scandals associated with ISKCON (which is associated with Gaudiya Vaishnavism). However, other Vaishnava groups are "secure", meaning that they aren't getting a lot of new people to join them and not many people leaving them.

 

But, I may or may not be wrong. Hinduism in the USA is stereotypically viewed in only 2 ways: Prabhupada's Vaishnavism or Swami Vivekananda's "Modern Vedanta".

 

In schools, they teach Swami Vivekananda's "Modern Vedanta". This is basically Advaita Vedanta with a few twists. However, in daily life, if you mention Hinduism to a non-Hindu, non-students will think that it's a religion where people shave their heads except for a ponytail in the back and chant something on the streets wearing orange robes. If you mention Hinduism to a non-Hindu student, they will think that it's a religion that has no god OR is polytheistic (depending on whether or not they listened).

[Guruvani]

 

However, other Vaishnava groups are "secure", meaning that they aren't getting a lot of new people to join them and not many people leaving them.

 

Could that be because they never created a sub-culture ashram community unto itself that created the opportunity for corruption and abuse by the leadership?

 

ISKCON was a sub-culture.

Most devotees lived within the organizational ashram.

This created the opportunity for disruption as internal corruption spoiled the atmosphere.

[Kulapavana]

 

Are there any good examples of longstanding successful spiritual organizations and if so what is their organizational structure like?

 

Any organizations that have faired well over the long-haul after the passing of the founder-leader?

 

 

there are scores of movements like that: from Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, Pentacostals to various other churches like Unitarians, Methodists, Moravians, etc.

 

what they have in common is accountability and transparency of the leadership, as well as very robust system of internal checks and balances. most of these movements are run in a fairly democratic way.

 

some of these movements had serious initial problems, even worse than Iskcon (the Mormon founder ended up completely disgraced even in his own group) but because they were properly organized later on they were ultimately very successful.

[Guruvani]

 

there are scores of movements like that: from Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, Pentacostals to various other churches like Unitarians, Methodists, Moravians, etc.

 

what they have in common is accountability and transparency of the leadership, as well as very robust system of internal checks and balances. most of these movements are run in a fairly democratic way.

 

some of these movements had serious initial problems, even worse than Iskcon (the Mormon founder ended up completely disgraced even in his own group) but because they were properly organized later on they were ultimately very successful.

 

But, in those sects there was only ONE spiritual master - Christ.

So, in ISKCON with it's multitude of gurus, what hope is there for solidarity?

(You Polish know about Solidarity) (i.e. Lec Walesa)

[Kulapavana]

 

But, in those sects there was only ONE spiritual master - Christ.

So, in ISKCON with it's multitude of gurus, what hope is there for solidarity?

 

 

that is not true. these movements were initially very dependent on their founders and the doctrine they developed. in our movement the "multiple guru problem" boils down to the poor understanding of the guru doctrine by our members, as well as it's inherent fluid nature as conveyed by Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

that is not true. these movements were initially very dependent on their founders and the doctrine they developed. in our movement the "multiple guru problem" boils down to the poor understanding of the guru doctrine by our members, as well as it's inherent fluid nature as conveyed by Srila Prabhupada.

 

But preachers, reverends, pastors and bishops are not the same as "guru" in the Gaudiya culture.

Gurus are "as good as God".

Church leaders in Christian sects are just seen as teachers NOT "as good as God" as the Vaishnava system of gurus.

 

There can never be any good comparison between a Vaishnava sect and a Christian sect because leaders in the Christian sect are never "as good as Christ" as we find in the Vaishnava guru system where the guru becomes a transparent via-media of God.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

the Mormon founder ended up completely disgraced even in his own group

 

Which founder is that? From what I've read Joseph Smith was killed by a (non-Mormon) mob in the Midwest (Ohio, was it?) prior to the long march to Utah, led by Brigham Young (who also is still revered).

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism are out of the question in the USA due to the many scandals associated with ISKCON (which is associated with Gaudiya Vaishnavism).

 

I'm not so sure about that. Fundamentalist Christians have been plagued by scandal after scandal (Baker, Fallwell, Haggerty, etc.) and they haven't disappeared (unfortunately).

[AncientMariner]

I have read a lot of stuff on the internet that seems to pretty much debunk the idea that Joseph Smith was truly in contact with Christ and given the true church of Christ. Some of the less flattering stuff even suggests that he had a bad habit of messing around with other peoples wives and stuff. I even read one thing that said 7 or 8 years after saying that the Mormon Church is the true Church of Christ that he tryed to join the Methodist Church. The Mormons tell you that stuff is all made up by apostates so it is hard to tell for certain but to be honest for some reason I am inclined to think that Joseph Smith was pretty much a con man. Hopefully I am wrong but this being the Kali-yuga that is usually pretty much par for the course so to speak.

[sanatan]

 

....

 

(I didn't know that Yogananda ever had a really dynamic grass-roots movement like ISKCON was - used to be)

 

Yogananda founded his organization in the 1920's. It was historic by the time Srila Prabhupada came here, and had grown slowly, with the average member older and more conservative at the time of "joining" when compared to ISKCON's membership base. SRF never had the publicly-visible and explosive growth that ISKCON experienced.

 

But, from what I've read in recent years, they've had some of the same problems: dictatorial and abusive power consolidation at the top, with resulting personality cultism, deviant splinter groups, sex and financial scandals, abuse of rank-and-file members-householder and monastic, arbitrary revisions to the founder's original writings, and a top-down coverup attitude. A lawsuit which claimed that Yogananda was the father of an illegitimate child and that this child (now an elderly man) was entitled to a large portion of SRF's assets was recently decided in favor of SRF, after DNA testing showed the claim to be false.

 

I know this doesn't prove anything...maybe just suggests that large spiritual institutions tend to go corrupt.

[AncientMariner]

 

Yogananda founded his organization in the 1920's. It was historic by the time Srila Prabhupada came here, and had grown slowly, with the average member older and more conservative at the time of "joining" when compared to ISKCON's membership base. SRF never had the publicly-visible and explosive growth that ISKCON experienced.

 

But, from what I've read in recent years, they've had some of the same problems: dictatorial and abusive power consolidation at the top, with resulting personality cultism, deviant splinter groups, sex and financial scandals, abuse of rank-and-file members - householder and monastic, arbitrary revisions to the founder's original writings, and a top-down coverup attitude. A lawsuit which claimed that Yogananda was the father of an illegitimate child and that this child (now an elderly man) was entitled to a large portion of SRF's assets was recently decided in favor of SRF, after DNA testing showed the claim to be false.

 

I know this doesn't prove anything...maybe just suggests that large spiritual institutions tend to go corrupt.

 

I started to read a Yogananda book once and it just didn't compare at all to Prabhuapda's books so I didn't get very far into it.

[Guruvani]

 

Yogananda founded his organization in the 1920's. It was historic by the time Srila Prabhupada came here, and had grown slowly, with the average member older and more conservative at the time of "joining" when compared to ISKCON's membership base. SRF never had the publicly-visible and explosive growth that ISKCON experienced.

 

But, from what I've read in recent years, they've had some of the same problems: dictatorial and abusive power consolidation at the top, with resulting personality cultism, deviant splinter groups, sex and financial scandals, abuse of rank-and-file members-householder and monastic, arbitrary revisions to the founder's original writings, and a top-down coverup attitude. A lawsuit which claimed that Yogananda was the father of an illegitimate child and that this child (now an elderly man) was entitled to a large portion of SRF's assets was recently decided in favor of SRF, after DNA testing showed the claim to be false.

 

I know this doesn't prove anything...maybe just suggests that large spiritual institutions tend to go corrupt.

The book of Yogananda entitled Autobiography of a Yogi was my first introduction to Eastern philosophy, yoga etc.

It completely changed my life.

I feel I owe a debt to Yogananda because his book brought me in to the world of Indian philosophy and mysticism.

I also studied Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Satchidananda Swami, Swami Vishnudevananda, Theos Bernard, Kahlil Gibran, Edgar Cayce etc. after that before I actually got a chance to read a book of Srila Prabhupada which took me away from all that other stuff.

 

So, I have fond feelings for Yogananda.

His book changed my life and led me to Indian philosophy.

 

I only have respect and regard for him.

 

So, I was a "New Age" guy back in the mid-seventies.

I came to KC through the yoga ladder.

I wasn't a bum on the street who joined because I liked the food and needed a place to sleep.

[sanatan]

 

The book of Yogananda entitled Autobiography of a Yogi was my first introduction to Eastern philosophy, yoga etc.

It completely changed my life.

I feel I owe a debt to Yogananda because his book brought me in to the world of Indian philosophy and mysticism.

I also studied Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Satchidananda Swami, Swami Vishnudevananda, Theos Bernard, Kahlil Gibran, Edgar Cayce etc. after that before I actually got a chance to read a book of Srila Prabhupada which took me away from all that other stuff.

 

So, I have fond feelings for Yogananda.

His book changed my life and led me to Indian philosophy.

 

I only have respect and regard for him.

 

So, I was a "New Age" guy back in the mid-seventies.

I came to KC through the yoga ladder.

I wasn't a bum on the street who joined because I liked the food and needed a place to sleep.

 

 

I first read AOY in 1969. It was my first real introduction to eastern philosophy and yoga, and a life changing experience for me as well.

 

When I saw my first ISKCON kirtan party, later in 1969, what I had learned about Indian spiritual culture through reading AOY facilitated my understanding that the devotees were followers of an Indian guru, and the names Krishna and Rama were familiar because they were discussed in the book.

 

I also hold Yogananda in very high esteem, and keep a vintage copy of AOY in my spiritual bookcase. He was a truly saintly person. Yogananda and Ram Dass pointed my way to Srila Prabhupada's path.

 

Any comments I made about SRF's problems were made in the same spirit of sadness that I feel for ISKCON.

 

My first protracted contact with ISKCON was in 1971, and as I've related here before, very bad health and psychological repercussions from yogic practices taught by a certain Yogi Bhajan kept me on the fringe, but nonetheless something that never really went back to sleep was awakened by the early ISKCON association.

[Kulapavana]

 

Which founder is that? From what I've read Joseph Smith was killed by a (non-Mormon) mob in the Midwest (Ohio, was it?) prior to the long march to Utah, led by Brigham Young (who also is still revered).

 

Yes, it was Joseph Smith I had in mind. He was openly criticized by a large splinter group of his contemporary followers for his shenanigans which led to his downfall. Even his high Masonic connections were not enough to save him. Brigham Young was a Mason and an occultist magus as well.

[gHari]

Our own Bhakta Don was told by the State of Saskatchewan in Canada that "We don't handle Krsna here" when he voiced concerns over religious discrimination.

 

It is all still trickling slowly down from the intelligent class to the hillbillies. I think it's just another guna thing that will take time to purify the ears and taste of the West.

 

The Pharisee clergy, fearing for their jobs have had their hearts closed, revealing their shameful insincerity. They may well be the last rednecks to wake up.

 

As far as governments are concerned, politicians will still attend the festivals. Like kissing babies, it's the thing to do with those simple Indian folk and their colourful customs.

[suchandra]

 

In order for the KC movement to be taken seriously, there will need to be a break from ISKCON and a new start with a new oganization that has learned from the mistakes and misconceptions of ISKCON.

 

Myself, I have lost faith in the GBC concept.

I guess it was always meant to be the logical alternative to what becomes of a large spiritual organization after the acharya leaves, but nonetheless the GBC system has shown to have many defects that can never take the place of the acharya.

 

Personally, I think that Srila Prabhupada should have made it clear that the GBC was ONLY a managing authority and NOT a spiritual authority and that any future acharyas would have to branch-off from ISKCON and become a seperate organization.

 

I think if Srila Prabhupada would have banned any other guru than himself in ISKCON and kept the GBC as a managing authority that at least ISKCON could have maintained some stability instead of going through the melt-down that occured after his departure.

 

There really is no viable alternative to the leadership of a single acharya in an organization. Once you get more than ONE leader the whole thing breaks down.

 

I am one of the few who actually believe that Srila Prabhupada actually wanted to break-up ISKCON after his passing and so put in place a guaranteed formula for disaster which included the input of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Like the Yadava army after the passing of Lord Krishna, ISKCON had to be dismantled or at least reduced down to a whimpering vestige after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Otherwise, Tamal would have been King of the world by now!

 

These are good points and Prabhupada used to give so many examples of "ignorance is no excuse" and "the qualification of a leader is measured how his movement runs in his absence".

 

Or, that it is always the head of a movement who is actually 100% responsible for everything what happens within his movement. Many times we hear such and such didnt obey the orders. This is a bogus argument, if someone disobeys, he was never qualified to receive such an order in the first place.

 

A hotel chief can't argue, but I told the busboy to check the gas pipe, no, at court, the hotel chief is made 100% responsible and put in prison when his hotel building blew up due an unsafe gas pipe.

 

This were always Prabhupada's words, "no, you're TP, you're responsible". He often used to give the example that at court ignorance was no excuse and that it is the duty of a citizen to know what is the law.

 

The way he left this planet it should be clear that everything what happened was right to happen and what Prabhupada exactly wanted to happen. Phalena pariciate: “A thing is judged by its result.”

 

 

For example, that a man is living in some apartment. So some way or other you drive him away from that, illegally, you drive him away. So the man will go out and will take shelter somewhere. That’s a fact. But because you have driven him away from his bona fide position, you are criminal. You cannot say, “Although I have driven away, he’ll get some place.” No. That’s all right, but you have no power to drive him away. He was in his legal position to live in that apartment, and because you have forcibly driven him away you are criminal, you should be punished.

73/08/25 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.19-20

 

 

Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaisnava acarya. A Vaisnava acarya is self-effulgent, and there is no need for any court judgement. A false acarya my try to override a Vaisnava by a high-court decision, but Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that he is nothing but a disciple of Kali-yuga. (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila, Ch. 1, 218-219)