Do Western Governments Welcome Vaishnavism?

[Kulapavana]

 

These are good points and Prabhupada used to give so many examples of "ignorance is no excuse" and "the qualification of a leader is measured how his movement runs in his absence".

 

Or, that it is always the head of a movement who is actually 100% responsible for everything what happens within his movement. Many times we hear such and such didnt obey the orders. This is a bogus argument, if someone disobeys, he was never qualified to receive such an order in the first place.

 

so what exactly are you saying here? that Srila Prabhupada is responsible for the relative failure of Iskcon we see today?

 

In the hinsight, there may be some decisions he made which did not produce very good results in the long run (like the autocratic management system he introduced and favored in Iskcon) still he left his disciples an impressive organization.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

In the hinsight, there may be some decisions he made which did not produce very good results in the long run (like the autocratic management system he introduced and favored in Iskcon) still he left his disciples an impressive organization.

 

On the contrary (and as I've said before a number of times), I see Srila Prabhupada as a general who was willing to suffer *short-term* losses so that the war might eventually be won.

 

Western culture has been "contaminated" by a fatal dose of Krishna Consciousness. There is no turning back, now.

[theist]

Prabhupada did not fail. We have yet to learn the basics of Bhagavad-gita. The devotees success is not measured in the win/loss columns of materialistic ledgers but in the satisfaction of his Guru's and Krsna.

 

The devotee thinks big. He wants to transform the whole world into a Krsna conscious paradise and to that end he pushed his disciples into accomplishing some remarkable things both in the world and in themselves. His success in working with his disciples is measured by their attempt to transform society under their spiritual masters direction because by their attempt Krsna was pleased. His first and primary mission was to engage those that Krsna brought to him in Krsna service. What use to "transform" the world by leaving a big well run organization without changing the hearts of those involved?

 

He wants to take the world back to Krsna but is satisfied if at least one soul hears his message purely.

 

If you say Srila Prabhupada was a failure then so was Caitanya Mahaprabhu under the same logic.

 

Such talk is short sighted by thinking the organization of Iskcon was his purpose. Actually it was a vehicle for his purpose which was to spread God consciousness into the hearts of other souls. To see that we must take a more expanded view which extends into future lifetimes for ourselves as well as anyone touched by His Divine Grace even in the the most minimalist of ways. It all starts with sukriti. We see a man spreading seeds in the field to grow corn and come back the next day and seeing no corn pronouce the whole effort as a failure. This just shows our lack of knowledge.

 

To really guage Prabhupada's impact we would need to follow all the souls touched over their next so many lifetimes.

[suchandra]

 

so what exactly are you saying here? that Srila Prabhupada is responsible for the relative failure of Iskcon we see today?

 

Thanks for asking Kula, but why to valuate everything? Better to simply repeat what is said by the great acharyas and gradually learn to see everything as Krishna's plan.

To fully understand what is Krishna's plan is hardly possible - somehow we must have faith that Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan Mission will come out successfull and those who presently try to measure things with our material mind will anyway always be troubled taking pleasure in Krishna's arrangements for the world's well-being.

[Guruvani]

In his last days I think Srila Prabhupada was turning ISKCON over to his disciples and just depending in Krishna for whatever the outcome might be.

 

Unlike some acharyas who try to control every last detail of what happens after they leave, I think Srila Prabhupada just felt that it was in the hands of Krishna and also the ISKCON leadership.

 

I think Srila Prabhupada didn't make a permanent arrangement.

He left it in the hands of Krishna.

 

I think Srila Prabhupada was showing extreme detachment in his last days and even letting go of ISKCON and realizing that after he was gone it would be in the hands of his disciples and the will of Krishna's bigger plan.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't really make a momentous announcement about how ISKCON would continue after his departure.

 

The GBC prodded Srila Prabhupada for some answer and that is when he eventually gave the ritvik appointments.

 

Still, he didn't make any big and official announcement to all of the ISKCON devotees how things would go on after his passing.

 

Sometimes I find that confusing, but in my heart I just see that Prabhupada was letting go and leaving the future of ISKCON in the hands of Krishna - the supreme controller.

 

He could have made some big, big official declaration like Sridhar Maharaja did, but he didn't.

 

That is telling of something.

To me it just tells that Srila Prabhupada didn't consider the future of ISKCON after his departure to be in his hands.

He let go, turned it over to the ISKCON management to let the will of Krishna run it's own course.

 

Actually, I find that quite significant and showing the detachment of Srila Prabhupada that he didn't try to control the future of ISKCON with some pronouncement.

 

The GBC managed to draft some letter and get Srila Prabhupada to sign it, but I often wonder what Srila Prabhupada would have said or done if the GBC had not prodded him for some statement about what ISKCON will do after his passing.

 

Personally, I think they should have let Srila Prabhupada do what he wanted in his own time without coming forward to pressure him for some pronouncement and force and answer.

 

I think it shows they were mostly trying to force Srila Prabhupada to appoint the gang as guru, but all they got was ritvik.

[Kulapavana]

 

Thanks for asking Kula, but why to valuate everything? Better to simply repeat what is said by the great acharyas and gradually learn to see everything as Krishna's plan.

 

Perhaps Lord Krsna's plan also includes learning from the past mistakes? If the leela teaches us anything, it is that the Master's plan is adjusted all the time, up to the very last moment. Taking part in this plan is not a passive thing - it is an active thing. We can be part of the problem, or part of the adjustment. One who worships Krsna with intelligence is very dear to Him.

[Kulapavana]

 

I think Srila Prabhupada didn't make a permanent arrangement.

He left it in the hands of Krishna.

 

 

Yes, he was always very surrendered.

[AncientMariner]

 

Perhaps Lord Krsna's plan also includes learning from the past mistakes? If the leela teaches us anything, it is that the Master's plan is adjusted all the time, up to the very last moment. Taking part in this plan is not a passive thing - it is an active thing. We can be part of the problem, or part of the adjustment. One who worships Krsna with intelligence is very dear to Him.

 

 

What is the plan going forward that will inundate the world in Krsna Consciousness? As good of job as Srila Prabhupada did it still seems that Krsna Consciousness at least in the western world is not very well known and even if people did know about it the chances of them following all the rules and regulations required is next to nil in my opinion but I could be wrong.

[Kulapavana]

 

He could have made some big, big official declaration like Sridhar Maharaja did, but he didn't.

 

That is telling of something.

 

Actually, I think Sridhara Maharaja made that big official declaration simply because he saw what happened to Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada did not take such a step.

[Guruvani]

 

Actually, I think Sridhara Maharaja made that big official declaration simply because he saw what happened to Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada did not take such a step.

 

I am not so sure.

 

Govinda Maharaja was always the real bread and butter for Sridhar Maharaja and contributed more to the service of Sridhar Maharaja and his Matha than anybody.

 

I think it was just natural that Sridhar Maharaja would leave his Matha in the hands of Govinda Maharaja.

 

ISKCON had so many leading disciples who all did so much to help build and develop ISKCON that there was not a single self-effulgent successor like there was at SCSMatha.

 

No matter what happened in ISKCON, I think Sridhar Maharaja would have probably taken the same course in his will and succession.

 

Nobody could argue at all that Govinda Maharaja deserved to be left with the control of SCSMatha.

 

It was a natural sequence for SCSMatha.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

From what I remember, Srila Sridhar Maharaja commented aloud just a short time after Srila Gurudev joined the Math (at age 16, was it?) that Gurudev would be his successor.

 

Perhaps the *formality* of the torch-passing was influenced by the example of succession in ISKCON, though.

 

 

I am not so sure.

 

Govinda Maharaja was always the real bread and butter for Sridhar Maharaja and contributed more to the service of Sridhar Maharaja and his Matha than anybody.

 

I think it was just natural that Sridhar Maharaja would leave his Matha in the hands of Govinda Maharaja.

 

ISKCON had so many leading disciples who all did so much to help build and develop ISKCON that there was not a single self-effulgent successor like there was at SCSMatha.

 

No matter what happened in ISKCON, I think Sridhar Maharaja would have probably taken the same course in his will and succession.

 

Nobody could argue at all that Govinda Maharaja deserved to be left with the control of SCSMatha.

 

It was a natural sequence for SCSMatha.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Needless to say, some of the more senior devotees seemed to be stunned by this pronouncement at the time, but, as we can see today, the potency of Srila Gurudev is such that goings on at SCSMath are largely harmonious.

 

 

From what I remember, Srila Sridhar Maharaja commented aloud just a short time after Srila Gurudev joined the Math (at age 16, was it?) that Gurudev would be his successor.

 

Perhaps the *formality* of the torch-passing was influenced by the example of succession in ISKCON, though.

[Kulapavana]

 

Needless to say, some of the more senior devotees seemed to be stunned by this pronouncement at the time, but, as we can see today, the potency of Srila Gurudev is such that goings on at SCSMath are largely harmonious.

 

That is precisely what I had in mind. I too have heard that quite a few senior devotees in that sanga were surprised by the pronouncement. That means there was potential for confusion if the matter had not been presented in very obvious terms.

[Kulapavana]

 

What is the plan going forward that will inundate the world in Krsna Consciousness?

 

Each one of us must become part of that flood. small tricles unite and become a river - disjointed trickles dry out. We must work together, and it starts with us, not with the other guys. We have to learn to appreciate one another for what we are - aspiring Vaishnavas who may have their faults, but who at the same time are closer to us then anything else in the world.

 

If we learn to respect each other the world will finally start respecting us too. All this mudslinging among the Vaishnavas has sullied us all. What is hurting us is not the scandals of the past, but the problems of the present. You can see it on this forum as well.

[AncientMariner]

 

Each one of us must become part of that flood. small tricles unite and become a river - disjointed trickles dry out. We must work together, and it starts with us, not with the other guys. We have to learn to appreciate one another for what we are - aspiring Vaishnavas who may have their faults, but who at the same time are closer to us then anything else in the world.

 

If we learn to respect each other the world will finally start respecting us too. All this mudslinging among the Vaishnavas has sullied us all. What is hurting us is not the scandals of the past, but the problems of the present. You can see it on this forum as well.

 

I agree with that about respect. I know lately I haven't been that interested in the controversial subject matter involved with the KC Movement and its not because I want to bury my head in the sand or ignore abuses that happened (luckily, I never experienced any of that stuff). Its more the fact that Krsna has been so kind to me in my life that I am thankful to have had some association with Prabhupada through his books that I just don't find the conflict that interesting anymore. Good luck to you and here is to hoping for the mutual respect amongst all the different parties of Vaisnavas.

[Guruvani]

 

Needless to say, some of the more senior devotees seemed to be stunned by this pronouncement at the time,

 

I don't know how they could have been stunned.

Anybody could see that coming from a mile away.

 

I don't think they were stunned as much as they were hurt or jealous that they didn't get a piece of the pie.

 

Sridhar Maharaja was never concerned about a quantity of followers or expanding the KC movement bigtime.

 

His Will and declaration of succession reflected his style that he was not out to be a big expansionist of the KC movement.

Whatever came naturally he would accept, but he wasn't gung-ho about making a bunch of neophyte disciples by hook or by crook.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I don't know how they could have been stunned.

Anybody could see that coming from a mile away.

 

I don't think they were stunned as much as they were hurt or jealous that they didn't get a piece of the pie.

To be clear, I was not referring to the official pronouncement. As you say, that was no surprise.

 

I was referring to the spoken comment of Srila Sridhar Maharaja (shortly after Govinda Maharaja joined) that a teenage newcomer would eventually be his successor.

 

I'm not sure how old the body of Aranya Maharaja is (if I'm remembering the name), but he sure *looks* older than Gurudeva. Still, in all the pictures I see of him, he seems blissful.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

This isn't the clearest picture, but you can see Aranya Maharaj on the far right (there's a great picture of which I'm thinking--lets' see if I can find it):

 

 

 

I'm not sure how old the body of Aranya Maharaja is (if I'm remembering the name), but he sure *looks* older than Gurudeva. Still, in all the pictures I see of him, he seems blissful.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

[Guruvani]

nice.

 

 

I am diggin' on Aranya Maharaja.......!

[suchandra]

 

Personally, I think they should have let Srila Prabhupada do what he wanted in his own time without coming forward to pressure him for some pronouncement and force and answer.

 

Still, he didn't make any big and official announcement to all of the ISKCON devotees how things would go on after his passing.

 

 

It's hard to believe that Prabhupada would comply to be put under pressure by his disciples. Rather the opposite might be true, considering them in 1977 as unteachable fools when it comes to abide by the rules of being a trustworthy ISKCON leader. Prabhupada repeatedly stated that he cannot trust the leaders. Since a movement cant be managed without proper leadership the only option left was, "failure is the pillar for success." Therefore Prabhupada didnt make any announcemts, he knew that first things have to fall appart before the phoenix would emerge new from the ashes.

 

 

As we have sometimes heard the proverb, that Failure is the pillar of success, so especially in spiritual life, this failure is not discouraging. This failure is not discouraging. Krishna says that: Even one fails in completing his spiritual course, still, there is no loss on his part.

 

New York 1966, BG 6.40-44

 

Prabhupada's destructive estimation of the GBC men, how someone can believe that soon later he considered them as fit to become spiritual masters?

 

 

74-12-16 Letter: Jayatirtha

"...But the difficulty is that our GBC men are falling victim to maya. Today I trust this GBC and tomorrow he will fall down. That is the difficulty. If the GBC men are so flickering then what to speak of the others. UNLESS THIS PROBLEM IS SOLVED WHATEVER WE MAY RESOLVE IT WILL NOT BE VERY USEFUL. We shall discuss this at our meeting. IF THE GBC MEN CAN EVER MANAGE PROPERLY THEN I SHALL GET SOME TIME FOR WRITING MY BOOKS."

Did Prabhupada ever got the time for writing his books because the GBC men were managing properly? No, Prabhupada had to constantly check everything.

Also see, "Our Whole Movement Could be Killed"