14th Descendent of Lord Sri Sri Nityananda Mahaprabhu

[Guruvani]

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[Guruvani]

It's obvious that the parampara in question is one based totally on formal diksha.

It is this formal diksha parampara, oblivious to the lifeblood of proper siksha, that has this tradition of livelyhood through guruship.

 

The Saraswata Gaudiya line holds siksha as the vital current that really defines and describes the parivar.

 

Beginning with Bhaktivinoda Thakur who eventually came at odds with his diksha guru and put his siksha guru as prominent, the principle of siksha guru parampara came into full bloom.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

How many times was Prabhupada busy looking through his camcorder while having his feet washed?

[Guruvani]

Because, the claim of being the 14th descendent of Lord Nityananda might possibly be based on diksha and not bloodline.

 

I don't see anything specifically in the available information that declares the descendency as being bloodline and not formal diksha.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

They claim it to be bloodline, just ask them.

[Kulapavana]

Caitanya Caritamrita, Adi-lila 11.8, Purport:

"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura writes in his Anubhasya,

 

"Virabhadra Gosani was the direct son of Srila Nityananda Prabhu and a disciple of Jahnava-devi. His real mother was Vasudha. In the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (67) he is mentioned as an incarnation of Ksirodakasayi Visnu. Therefore Virabhadra Gosani is nondifferent from Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In a village of the name Jhamatapura, in the district of Hugli, Virabhadra Gosani had a disciple named Yadunathacarya, who had two daughters -- a real daughter named Srimati and a foster daughter named Narayani. Both these daughters married, and they are mentioned in the Bhakti-ratnakara (Thirteenth Wave). Virabhadra Gosani had three disciples who are celebrated as his sons -- Gopijana-vallabha, Ramakrsna and Ramacandra. The youngest, Ramacandra, belonged to the Sandilya dynasty and had the surname Vatavyala. He established his family at Khadadaha, and its members are known as the gosvamis of Khadadaha. The eldest disciple, Gopijana-vallabha, was a resident of a village known as Lata, near the Manakara railway station in the district of Burdwan. The second, Ramakrsna, lived near Maladaha, in a village named Gayesapura."

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura notes that since these three disciples belonged to different gotras, or dynasties, and also had different surnames and lived in different places, it is not possible to accept them as real sons of Virabhadra Gosani. Ramacandra had four sons, of whom the eldest was Radhamadhava, whose third son was named Yadavendra. Yadavendra’s son was Nandakisora, his son was Nidhikrsna, his son was Caitanyacanda, his son was Krsnamohana, his son was Jaganmohana, his son was Vrajanatha, and his son was Syamalala Gosvami. This is the genealogical table given by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura for the descendants of Virabhadra Gosani.

------------------------------

On the other hand, Viracandra-carita states that Sri Yadunanda, a celebrated brahmin of the Pippali dynasty from Jhamatpur had two beautiful daughters, the older being Srimati and the younger Narayani, whom he bestowed upon Viracandra Prabhu. It further states that Ramacandra Goswami is the son of Narayani, or in other words a blood-line descendant of Lord Nityananda.

 

Obviously there are differences of opinion on this matter. While we accept the opinion of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as authoritative, we should recognize that others may not agree with us.

[Guruvani]

Their disciplic succession goes back to this mata and they don't show anything beyond her being the wife of some jati Goswami.

 

Sri Saradasundari Mata Goswamini

Wife of Prabhupada Sri Alakmohan Goswami

and DIkshaguru of Prabhupada Sri Prangopal Goswami

[Guruvani]

 

On the other hand, Viracandra-carita states that Sri Yadunanda, a celebrated brahmin of the Pippali dynasty from Jhamatpur had two beautiful daughters, the older being Srimati and the younger Narayani, whom he bestowed upon Viracandra Prabhu. It further states that Ramacandra Goswami is the son of Narayani, or in other words a blood-line descendant of Lord Nityananda.

 

Obviously there are differences of opinion on this matter. .

 

Obviously, you picked up this tidbit of information from the boys over at the siddha-pranali camp where this Nityananda-vamsha is the real Mccoy and the Saraswatas are bogus.

[Kulapavana]

Nityanandavamsavalli, another well known GV book, has several genealogy charts. In those one finds the following offspring of Virachandra Goswami:

Ramacandra Goswami, Chandrashekhar, Vrindavan. Again, we can chose to ignore that source, or at least acknowledge that there is more to this story than a simple yes or no.

[Kulapavana]

 

Obviously, you picked up this tidbit of information from the boys over at the siddha-pranali camp where this Nityananda-vamsha is the real Mccoy and the Saraswatas are bogus.

 

when it comes to these matters my position is completely neutral and academic. personally, I am not wowed by any blood lines - in this age they do not mean much.

[suchandra]

 

when it comes to these matters my position is completely neutral and academic. personally, I am not wowed by any blood lines - in this age they do not mean much.

Well, it is very similiar like the situation in Jagannath Puri, where Western Vaishnavas are not really welcomed. Right now when sitting in front of your pc you might consider this with academic countenance, when travelling on pilgrimage to Puri and then being denied entrance might let you think otherwise: why Vaishnavism in Puri can be so materialistic? Similiarly, this is what nityananda-vamsa caused Srila Bhaktisiddhanta maharaja to refute - spirituality is not limited upon being born in a certain family but upon character and qualification. And thus he paved the way for Vaishnavism going West. Nityananda-vamsa would have told you, first become re-born in a Hindu family, please stay out!

Somehow it seems that you don't bother - "well, then I wouldnt have come to know about Krishna in this lifetime..this doesnt mean much for me...my position is neutral."

[Kulapavana]

 

Well, it is very similiar like the situation in Jagannath Puri, where Western Vaishnavas are not really welcomed. Right now when sitting in front of your pc you might consider this with academic countenance, when travelling on pilgrimage to Puri and then being denied entrance might let you think otherwise: why Vaishnavism in Puri can be so materialistic?

 

Actually, this is an occasion for me to feel humble about my Vaishnava status... and I can still see Lord Jaganath during the Ratha Yatra. Otherwise it is "love in separation"

[Guruvani]

 

when it comes to these matters my position is completely neutral and academic. personally, I am not wowed by any blood lines - in this age they do not mean much.

When it comes to one's own spiritual family of acharyas and gurus, being "academic and neutral" is not what the Saraswata acharyas have taught about allegiance and loyalty.

 

Of course, this kind of confusion and corruption is what the siddha-pranali camp are trying to inflict upon the Saraswata Gaudiya parivar.

 

To me, this kind of waffling between schools and camps is for the unfaithful and the unchaste.

 

One who doesn't stand for something will fall for anything, so they say.

 

Our acharya is our saviour.

Bouncing around from one camp to the other is for spiritual prostitutes as far as I am concerned.

[suchandra]

 

When it comes to one's own spiritual family of acharyas and gurus, being "academic and neutral" is not what the Saraswata acharyas have taught about allegiance and loyalty.

 

Of course, this kind of confusion and corruption is what the siddha-pranali camp are trying to inflict upon the Saraswata Gaudiya parivar.

 

To me, this kind of waffling between schools and camps is for the unfaithful and the unchaste.

 

One who doesn't stand for something will fall for anything, so they say.

 

Our acharya is our saviour.

Bouncing around from one camp to the other is for spiritual prostitutes as far as I am concerned.

well spoken, Prabhupada says something very similiar, "the siddha-pranali process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that.

 

This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranali process is followed by the prakrita-sahajiya, a pseudosect of so-called Vaishnavas. In the opinion of Rupa Gosvami, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service. Sri Rupa Gosvami says that learned acharyas recommend that we follow the regulative principles even after the development of spontaneous love for Krishna. -- Nectar of Devotion 16

 

 

 

 

According to the Vedanta Sutra (4.4.1) and Sri Sanatana Goswami (Brhadbagavatamrtam, 2.2), a soul never gets given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is an eternal and inseparable facet of the individual soul, the jiva-atma. The spiritual form of the self is eternally and inseparably connected to the individual self. My spiritual body is inseparable from me and, though dormant, my spiritual body has been with me for all of eternity. When a soul desires to render service to the Lord in his spiritual form then the dormant spiritual body becomes fully manifest. This is clearly stated to be the case in the Vedanta Sutra and in more recent texts such as Sri Sanatana Goswami's book Brhadbhagavatamrtam. It is utterly wrong to think that a soul can be given a spiritual body.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada Conversations, Morning Walk, 6-7-76, LA

Prabhupada: In this sahajiya party, then preaching will be finished. Siddha-pranali. Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished.

Tamala Krsna: What does that mean, Srila Prabhupada, siddha-pranali?

Prabhupada: Siddha-pranali is nonsense. They have manufactured a siddha-pranali.

Ramesvara: [break] ...the initiation that you are given your siddhas, your eternal position.

Prabhupada: They have learned it from these Radha-kunda babajis.

Tamala Krsna: From Radha-kunda babajis?

Prabhupada: Babajis, yes. After all, they're fool, rascals, so whatever they say. Let them say all nonsense. They are disqualified. Sahajiya babajis, that's all.

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, when the devotee is in the original relationship with Krsna, his siddha-deha, why is it that he sometimes changes his original rasa with Krsna?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Ramesvara: Each one of us has an original relationship with Krsna, some as plant, some as tree, some as cow, some as cowherd boy. So if that is re-established, why should the devotee desire to change it?

Prabhupada: Well, that is spiritual kingdom. You can change if you like.

Tamala Krsna: It is not static, Prabhupada once explained. Love is not static.

Prabhupada: Generally, it is not changed. Just like mother Yasoda, she's mother all the time, eternally.

Tamala Krsna: The question came in Bombay two or three years ago. Prabhupada said that it is not static. You can have (inaudible).

Hari-sauri: I always understood before that the rasa was fixed, but that within that rasa one may take different..., one may take a different line.

Prabhupada: That will be revealed when you are liberated. Why you are bothering now? A patient is thinking, "How shall I dance when I become healthy?" First of all, rascal, become healthy, then talk of all this. The rascals are thinking like that. You are patient; first of all cure your disease, material disease. Then talk of all this. Utopian. "When I will get rich, how I shall treat.... I shall.... Then my wife is disobedient and I shall kick her like this."

 

[Guruvani]

The siddha-pranali boys try to say that this siddha-pranali business comes down from Gopalguru Goswami to Dyanacandra Goswami and then some Siddha Krishnadas Babaji brought it all together in some work.

 

What they can't show is that Srila Rupa Goswami or Sanatan Goswami or Raghunatha das Goswami took siksha from Gopalguru Goswami or had anything to do with this siddha-pranali business.

 

Since Rupa and Sanatan were direct disciples of Mahaprabhu, I doubt seriously if Rupa or Sanatan had anything to do with this siddha-pranali business.

 

To say that siddha-pranali is "Rupanuga" is a bit of a stretch as far as I know.

 

I don't know of any siddha-pranali business that is in the actual instructions of the six-goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

Mainly, it was popularized by some Siddha Krishnadas Babaji a long time after the time of Rupa and Sanatan.

 

But, the siddha-pranali boys want everyone to think that this siddha-pranali business has been part of the Rupanuga sampradaya all along.

 

I don't believe so.

[Kulapavana]

 

Bouncing around from one camp to the other is for spiritual prostitutes as far as I am concerned.

 

If you want to see me in that way (as a spiritual prostitute) that does not bother me, but for the umpteenth time: I have zero connection to the siddha pranali groups and zero qualifications to even think about stuff like that.

 

Srila Prabhupada (2 September, 1971 London - letter to Jayapataka Maharaja) writes:

 

"P.S. Whenever our men go to visit Lalita Prasad Thakura they must take some presentation, cash or kind, worth not less than Rs. 50/- at least. Some nice presentation should be always given. Not that you go empty handed. It is customary to make a presentation to the Deity and Spiritual Master. Lalita Prasad Thakura is son of Bhaktivinode Thakura and younger brother of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati so he is considered my spiritual master."

 

Lalita Prasada was a well known siddha-pranali proponent and Prabhupada considers him to be in a guru category - try to apply your infidelity logic here.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada (2 September, 1971 London - letter to Jayapataka Maharaja) writes:

 

"P.S. Whenever our men go to visit Lalita Prasad Thakura they must take some presentation, cash or kind, worth not less than Rs. 50/- at least. Some nice presentation should be always given. Not that you go empty handed. It is customary to make a presentation to the Deity and Spiritual Master. Lalita Prasad Thakura is son of Bhaktivinode Thakura and younger brother of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati so he is considered my spiritual master."

 

.

 

Lip service.

I don't know of any account or any occasion when Srila Prabhupada went to visit, associate or hear from Lalita Prasada, though he had ample opportunity to do so.

 

I think the example of Srila Prabhupada of just staying away is the example we should follow.

[Kulapavana]

 

What they can't show is that Srila Rupa Goswami or Sanatan Goswami or Raghunatha das Goswami took siksha from Gopalguru Goswami or had anything to do with this siddha-pranali business.

 

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9811/ET10-2485.html

Rupa Gosvami's Teachings on Raganuga Sadhana-Bhakti

[Kulapavana]

 

Lip service.

 

better lip service then just plain old lip

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Srila Prabhupada never advertised his credentials. His focus was completely on the message. That's why "Hare Krishna" is almost universally recognized while "Srila Prabhupada" is somewhat less known.

 

Perhaps it is the doing of those who invited this guest and not the approach of the guest himself, but, to be advertising some person's spiritual (or material as the case might be) pedigree as a reason to come take his darshan is a bit suspect.

 

Also, dressing in the colors of Sri Nityananda (the yellow and blue, no?) seems a bit presumptive and imitative.

 

The camcorder bit comes across as just tacky (as if he's documenting the event to prove to his buddies back home that, yes, they worshipped me in this way).

 

Srila Gurudev was given a camera not too long ago, and enjoys taking pictures of the devotees in informal circumstances, but I can't imagine him taking pictures like that during a ceremony of that nature.

 

So, there are some definite red flags here, but as has been said in this thread--it's best to offer respects from a distance if we cannot see within the heart of the person holding that prominent position.

 

Perhaps he is yet another avadhut. Perhaps he is a faker.

[Guruvani]

 

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9811/ET10-2485.html

Rupa Gosvami's Teachings on Raganuga Sadhana-Bhakti

I don't bother myself with interpretations or translations of the sahajiyas.

 

Just like Shankar could take the Vedic verses and prove Advaitavada, the sahajiyas can screw out sahajiya conceptions from the writings of the Goswamis.

 

I ain't buying it because I leave my Sanskrit learning up to Srila Prabhupada and the Saraswata acharyas who really know the language.

 

I don't trust the sahajiyas or their interpretations of the writing of the Goswamis.

 

Word jugglery can do wonders for those who seek to justify their ideas.

 

Neither are the misfit neophyte devotees of the western world fit for the same kind of practices as great Vaishnavas of bygone ages.

[Guruvani]

 

better lip service then just plain old lip

Yeah, like you backing the siddha-pranali misconceptions even though you don't practice nor are fit to practice it like most western devotees aren't.

[Guruvani]

 

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9811/ET10-2485.html

Rupa Gosvami's Teachings on Raganuga Sadhana-Bhakti

As well, I think it is preposterous, absurd and pathetic that you would even throw this stuff in the face of other people and expect them to just buy into interpretations rendered by sahajiyas.

 

You have no scruples when it comes to dipping into anything and everything that the sahajiyas throw out and claim authenticity.

 

It's just really crude that you would even expect devotees of the KC movement to read or study translations of siddha-pranali types when you know good and well that the Saraswata acharyas have rejected the siddha-pranali school.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yeah, like you backing the siddha-pranali misconceptions even though you don't practice nor are fit to practice it like most western devotees aren't.

 

Actually I think siddha pranali is not a misconception. Is it usually misapplied? Of course! Is it very harmful? It depends... for example, I see much more risk in borrowing concepts and attitudes from Abrahamic traditions (which are very common in Iskcon) then anything the siddha pranali camp has to offer. One example: the adoption of "end justifies the means" idea has done more real damage to western Vaishnavism then anything siddha pranali camp could ever come up with.

[Guruvani]

 

One example: the adoption of "end justifies the means" idea has done more real damage to western Vaishnavism then anything siddha pranali camp could ever come up with.

 

If the end is good then the means IS justified.

 

If the end is not good, then obviously the means is not justifiable.

 

The big question is wheter a few bumps in the road or a few scandals really negate all the positive achievements that will come over the long term.

 

Souls are getting delivered even as they say "them Hare Krishnas are child abusers".

 

So, really because we have no vision of the deeper effect of the KC movement we make bad assessments because of our own blindness to the greater good to the world.