14th Descendent of Lord Sri Sri Nityananda Mahaprabhu

[Kulapavana]

 

As well, I think it is preposterous, absurd and pathetic that you would even throw this stuff in the face of other people and expect them to just buy into interpretations rendered by sahajiyas.

 

Actually, what really is preposterous, absurd and pathetic, is that Iskcon devotees consider any GV person outside their camp to be a sahajiya. This places them squarely in the camp of uneducated bigots and cultists. People like that are on the level of Christian or Moslem fundamentalists.

[Kulapavana]

 

If the end is good then the means IS justified.

 

If the end is not good, then obviously the means is not justifiable.

 

The big question is wheter a few bumps in the road or a few scandals really negate all the positive achievements that will come over the long term.

 

 

because so many devotees initially fell for the "end justifies the means" slogan and all the lies and abuses that came with it, now most of them practice KC outside Iskcon (if they practice at all). this is your long term result - thousands of devotees left. and how many devotees left the movement because they were independently attracted to the siddha pranali camp? I dont know of a single soul. Those who are in this camp now left initially because of the nonsense encountered in Iskcon.

 

thus on the scale of problems siddha pranali is a zero, and the "end justifies the means" idea is a solid eight.

[Guruvani]

 

because so many devotees initially fell for the "end justifies the means" slogan and all the lies and abuses that came with it, now most of them practice KC outside Iskcon (if they practice at all). this is your long term result - thousands of devotees left. and how many devotees left the movement because they were independently attracted to the siddha pranali camp? I dont know of a single soul. Those who are in this camp now left initially because of the nonsense encountered in Iskcon.

 

thus on the scale of problems siddha pranali is a zero, and the "end justifies the means" idea is a solid eight.

 

Maybe Krishna engineered the scandals and the controversies for the greater good because he wanted to dismantle ISKCON as part of a greater plan?

 

Certainly, we are blind and have no vision of the great plan of Mahaprabhu that extends beyond corperate ISKCON to the greater ISKCON.

[Guruvani]

 

Actually, what really is preposterous, absurd and pathetic, is that Iskcon devotees consider any GV person outside their camp to be a sahajiya. This places them squarely in the camp of uneducated bigots and cultists. People like that are on the level of Christian or Moslem fundamentalists.

 

Devotees are not violent crusaders as they bigots you mentioned above, so I don't see any comparison at all.

 

In the name of being "neutral and academic" we become spiritual prostitutes with no loyalty to the parivar that actually organized the worldwide mission where we all learned about Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Then we bite the hand that feeds us and call the acharyas cultists and bigots because that have restricted the devotees of the KC movement from associating with certain sects and cults that many times have sahajiya philosophy.

 

Don't forget, when you blaspheme the restrictions against the sahajiyas you are challenging Srila Prabhupada and Srila Saraswati Thakur directly.

 

But, then who would be surpised to hear such manure from one who loiters with the siddha-pranali gang on their forums?

[Kulapavana]

 

Maybe Krishna engineered the scandals and the controversies for the greater good because he wanted to dismantle ISKCON as part of a greater plan?

 

 

if He did, the idea of "end justifies the means" was a major tool.

 

but such a philosophy seems quite bogus to me - you can justify anything with this gimmick.

[Kulapavana]

 

Don't forget, when you blaspheme the restrictions against the sahajiyas you are challenging Srila Prabhupada and Srila Saraswati Thakur directly.

 

 

were our acharyas walking around calling everybody outside their group a sahajiya? not at all. it is people like you who are doing that.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

If the end is good then the means IS justified.

 

I thought the means *are* the ends.

 

The means are the congregational chanting of the Holy Name. The end is to purely chant the Holy Name (and taste the infinite bliss thereof). Chanting is its own reward.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja discusses this (I need to keep re-reading his books or I keep sinking below the waves of forgetfullness (as I have now)).

[Kulapavana]

 

In the name of being "neutral and academic" we become spiritual prostitutes with no loyalty to the parivar that actually organized the worldwide mission where we all learned about Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

without the balanced and scholarly aspect no mission can succeed in the long run. we have enough unbalanced emotionalist cheerleaders in our movement, it is not my nature to be one of them. but you go ahead

[Guruvani]

 

without the balanced and scholarly aspect no mission can succeed in the long run. we have enough unbalanced emotionalist cheerleaders in our movement, it is not my nature to be one of them. but you go ahead

 

The books of Srila Prabhupada are balanced and scholarly enough for me.

I don't need to mingle with the siddha-pranali types to become balanced and scholarly.

Associating with that bunch doesn't make one balanced and scholarly.

It makes one imbalanced and confused.(like they are)

[Guruvani]

 

were our acharyas walking around calling everybody outside their group a sahajiya?

 

 

Most often they were setting down when they did that.

[Guruvani]

 

were our acharyas walking around calling everybody outside their group a sahajiya? not at all. it is people like you who are doing that.

 

I don't do that either.

Srila Prabhupada has mentioned in his books some families and parivars that he describes as "authorized spiritual masters".

The siddha-pranali cult did not make the list.

 

The Saraswatas don't claim to be the only Gaudiya Vaishnava parivar.

They recognize other qualified parivars.

They do not recognize the siddha-pranali cults.

The siddha-pranali business has gone down the tubes and the Saraswata acharyas will have no part of it.

[theist]

 

Prabhupada: More than a... Sannyasi is akarma, yes. Sannyasi is also not akarma. Sannyasa means... That is also described in Bhagavad-gita. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah [bg. 6.1]. That is also karma. Karyam karma karoti yah sa sannyasi. "It is my duty"—on this principle when one works, he is sannyasi. He does not work for himself, he works for Krishna. And that is sannyasi. Anasritah karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anasritah karma-phalam. Karyam: it is my duty. Karyam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yah. That is karma. Sa sannyasi. So how you can say in sannyasa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Krishna, to satisfy Krishna, anukulyena krishnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [Cc. Madhya 19.167].

 

The end DOES justify the means. But the end is Krsna's satisfaction. If Krsna is not satisfied then the means were not justifiable.

 

The problem is not the statement 'the end justifies the means', but rather the misuse of the concept to excuse bad behavior.

[Kulapavana]

 

The end DOES justify the means. But the end is Krsna's satisfaction. If Krsna is not satisfied then the means were not justifiable.

 

The problem is not the statement 'the end justifies the means', but rather the misuse of the concept to excuse bad behavior.

 

And precisely who decides whether Krsna was satisfied by a particular action taken ostensibly for His satisfaction? One can drive a truck through the above "argument". That is why we have all the shastric principles to guide us - to avoid inapropriate means.

 

If you use unclean or inappropriate means, the end is never free from the reaction. The proof is that we are still recovering (experiencing bad reactions) from scandalous activities undertaken more than 30 years ago in the mood of "the end justifies the means". Every deviant sect was using that excuse.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

And precisely who decides whether Krsna was satisfied by a particular action taken ostensibly for His satisfaction?

 

If Guru and Vaishnava are pleased, then we can be assured that Krishna is pleased.

[Kulapavana]

 

If Guru and Vaishnava are pleased, then we can be assured that Krishna is pleased.

 

yes, that is a good indicator, but what if there are disagreements between Vaishnavas or gurus on such issues? for example, on using money obtained through fraudulent means to build lavish temples or other "needs" of the mission? Many Vaishnavas and gurus would never touch such money, yet it was routinely done in our movement, with very questionable results.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You are a Vaishnava and you appear not to be pleased by these happenings, so they clearly must not have been good.

 

 

yes, that is a good indicator, but what if there are disagreements between Vaishnavas or gurus on such issues? for example, on using money obtained through fraudulent means to build lavish temples or other "needs" of the mission? Many Vaishnavas and gurus would never touch such money, yet it was routinely done in our movement, with very questionable results.

[Guruvani]

 

yes, that is a good indicator, but what if there are disagreements between Vaishnavas or gurus on such issues? for example, on using money obtained through fraudulent means to build lavish temples or other "needs" of the mission? Many Vaishnavas and gurus would never touch such money, yet it was routinely done in our movement, with very questionable results.

 

It just seems like you insist that the scandals and the controversies of ISKCON ultimately have to be blamed on the leader - Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you had an ounce of gratitude in your heart for the effort Srila Prabhupada made to deliver millions of souls around the world with Krishna consciousness, you would not keep harping on the ISKCON scandals as if Srila Prabhupada encouraged it or approved it.

 

The results of the ISKCON efforts are incredible.

Maybe because you can't see how the movement of Mahaprabhu has spread all over the world and will continue to grow for centuries.

 

It's pathetic that any devotee who has come to Krishna consciousness through the ISKCON mission could continue to criticize Srila Prabhupada because he couldn't keep a huge internation mission from having some scandals and some controversies.

 

Srila Prabhupada changed the face of the Earth.

Kulapavana is pissed-off because Srila Prabhupada couldn't change the face of the Earth without Mayadevi throwing some obstacles at the movement.

[suchandra]

 

It just seems like you insist that the scandals and the controversies of ISKCON ultimately have to be blamed on the leader - Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you had an ounce of gratitude in your heart for the effort Srila Prabhupada made to deliver millions of souls around the world with Krishna consciousness, you would not keep harping on the ISKCON scandals as if Srila Prabhupada encouraged it or approved it.

 

The results of the ISKCON efforts are incredible.

Maybe because you can't see how the movement of Mahaprabhu has spread all over the world and will continue to grow for centuries.

 

It's pathetic that any devotee who has come to Krishna consciousness through the ISKCON mission could continue to criticize Srila Prabhupada because he couldn't keep a huge internation mission from having some scandals and some controversies.

 

Srila Prabhupada changed the face of the Earth.

Kulapavana is pissed-off because Srila Prabhupada couldn't change the face of the Earth without Mayadevi throwing some obstacles at the movement.

 

Well, this is of course well spoken, just got the message that Premgopal Goswami/Nityananda-vamsa was also received by HG Sri Sriman Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu (ISKCON GBC Europe) - a clear indicator that ISKCON policy is to be broadminded and support all groups of Vaishnavas as one family of devotees of Lord Sri Krishna.

[Guruvani]

 

Well, this is of course well spoken, just got the message that Premgopal Goswami/Nityananda-vamsa was also received by HG Sri Sriman Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu (ISKCON GBC Europe) - a clear indicator that ISKCON policy is to be broadminded and support all groups of Vaishnavas as one family of devotees of Lord Sri Krishna.

 

There are surely many senior ISKCON men who will object to such things.

Ravindra Svarupa is a knucklehead with too high an estmation of himself.

 

Back in the early days of the zonal gurus he was against the bhogi guru gang, so they offered him to join the clique and then he shut-up and was quite happy to be a bhogi guru whom he criticized before they invited him in the gang.

[Kulapavana]

 

It just seems like you insist that the scandals and the controversies of ISKCON ultimately have to be blamed on the leader - Srila Prabhupada.

 

Not at all. Only that the adoption of the "end justifies the means" approach backfired big time.

[Guruvani]

 

Not at all. Only that the adoption of the "end justifies the means" approach backfired big time.

 

I think you are reading way too much into how far Srila Prabhupada was willing to go to accomplish his goals.

 

I think the end has been successful despite the controversies and scandals that were beyond his control and beyond his limits as to how far he was willing to go.

 

It has only backfired in your conditioned mind.

You can't see the underlying Earth-changing results of Srila Prabhupada's work.

You are stuck on the stool-pile of ISKCON and refuse to appreciate the sweet fruits that outweigh the failures.

 

It's just the device you choose to use to justify your fault-finding tendency that you have already admitted is your conditioned nature.

 

Get over it.

Lingering on the stool-pile won't do you any good.

 

Become a bee and leave your fly tendencies behind.

[Kulapavana]

 

I think you are reading way too much into how far Srila Prabhupada was willing to go to accomplish his goals.

 

 

Actually, I'm a lot more concerned about how far his followers are still taking that idea today, and how uncritical is their thinking in that regard. Yours included and very symptomatic at that.

 

If the idea is wrong and produces bad results, I dont really care who came up with it. It simply needs to be abandoned or revised and explained.

[Guruvani]

 

Actually, I'm a lot more concerned about how far his followers are still taking that idea today, and how uncritical is their thinking in that regard. Yours included and very symptomatic at that.

 

If the idea is wrong and produces bad results, I dont really care who came up with it. It simply needs to be abandoned or revised and explained.

I don't think that ISKCON lives and breathes on the motto of "the end justifies the means".

I don't even think you know what you are talking about.

 

You have found a theme that you use to convince yourself that you know better and have all the answers.

 

There are no easy answers.

 

Disciples of Srila Prabhupada are trying to do the best they can with the hand they have been dealt.

 

Your accusation that the law of ISKCON is "the end justifies the means" is a false accusation.

It's your own misconception.

It's not the founding principle of ISKCON.

 

I don't even know if you can prove that Srila Prabhupada advocated such a principle as some founding principle of ISKCON.

 

You have magnified the theme yourself in your own mind.

 

I was in ISKCON for years and I don't remember any big ISKCON theme of anything goes because "the end justifies the means".

 

You've blown the concept all out of proportion and convinced yourself that such a motto was the principle theme of ISKCON.

 

It was not and it is not.

 

You have created a straw-man argument with this crap and now you are attacking the straw-man as if he is an ISKCON deity.

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't think that ISKCON lives and breathes on the motto of "the end justifies the means".

 

The abuse of power in the name of "higher good" is still a current practice. The lies and misrepresentations are still being circulated because they supposedly serve a higher purpose.

 

Is it an Iskcon motto? No, it is just a very convenient justification for doing whatever we see fit.

 

Btw. it was just an example that a common idea in our own society can be more dangerous than anything the siddha pranali folks can contaminate our movement with. And that such an idea can be ignored while we fight the boogey-men of "sahajyaism". Remember the saying "We are our own worst enemy"? Or the "We can only be destroyed from within"? That is my point.

[theist]

 

And precisely who decides whether Krsna was satisfied by a particular action taken ostensibly for His satisfaction? One can drive a truck through the above "argument". That is why we have all the shastric principles to guide us - to avoid inapropriate means.

 

If you use unclean or inappropriate means, the end is never free from the reaction. The proof is that we are still recovering (experiencing bad reactions) from scandalous activities undertaken more than 30 years ago in the mood of "the end justifies the means". Every deviant sect was using that excuse.

Well you are just basically restating my post in the form of an objection to it...

 

The end DOES justify the means. But the end is Krsna's satisfaction. If Krsna is not satisfied then the means were not justifiable.

 

The problem is not the statement 'the end justifies the means', but rather the misuse of the concept to excuse bad behavior.

...but I can see you didn't quite get it.

 

 

If you use unclean or inappropriate means, the end is never free from the reaction.

If Krsna is pleased then there is no reaction even if the means was a so-called impious action by material standards. Conversely, a pious action may have a reaction if it was not pleasing to Krsna.

 

The test is Krsna's satisfaction. How do we know if Krsna is pleased? If one doesn't know then he has no busy acting whimisically under the guise of 'the end justifies the means'. The glaring example of this utter foolishness was Gurukripa and his gang's criminal exploits in Japan. Many do not know there was a time when Hare Krsna devotees were not allowed in Japan because of this. I am curious to know if that has changed. Are there now any temples in Japan? Do devotees go there in dhoti and tilak?

 

I am not so much disagreeing with you as trying to get you to refine your position from one of mundane morality to Krsna consciousness.