Choosing our rasa with Krishna

[Guruvani]

 

I did read the quote. I found it interesting and not all that alarming.

 

Your statement struck me as being a general one, so my reply was a general reply.

Well, I dabbled in the gaudiyadiscussions forum for a while and had to contend with some brainiacs, the Sanskrit nerds who defected from ISKCON to follow the "traditional school".

In that experience I found out that these guys pose some serious challenges to the Saraswata school and you can't bluff these guys.

 

You can't even begin to debate or discuss with that bunch unless you can substantiate everything you say with shastra. They all know shastra much better than most any of us.

They do have a tendency to interpret things differently than the Saraswata acharyas.

Interpretation is a very tricky game.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, I discovered in that experience that in debating on internet forums you can't talk paraphrase or from memory if at all you want to attempt to defend the Saraswata school from outside attack.

 

Since then, I have realized that you can't defend youself on the internet unless you can substantiate all your points with shastra.

 

I think it is a good policy.

 

Devotees like ISKCON preachers and ex-ISKCON Swamis like T Swami have the luxury of preaching in paraphrase or from memory, but they wouldn't last 5 minutes in a serious debate on internet forums where the "scholars, geeks and nerds" would chew them up and spit them out with shastric verse.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

OK, points all well-taken.

 

Getting back to the discussion, here's what I took away from Sripad Tripurari Maharaja's answer:

 

"Picking" our devotional mood with the Lord is not like shopping for jeans at the Wal-Mart. Rather, our goal is to develop a loving, *reciprocal* relationship with Sri Krishna. So, the mood in which we engage in service will be a product of that reciprocal relationship rather than us *telling* the Lord, "This is how I will serve You".

 

While Guru may not explicitly reveal to us our inner mood, Guru will help draw out our devotion.

 

Is that how you read the statement? What's so screwball about that?

 

 

Well, I dabbled in the gaudiyadiscussions forum for a while and had to contend with some brainiacs, the Sanskrit nerds who defected from ISKCON to follow the "traditional school".

In that experience I found out that these guys pose some serious challenges to the Saraswata school and you can't bluff these guys.

 

You can't even begin to debate or discuss with that bunch unless you can substantiate everything you say with shastra. They all know shastra much better than most any of us.

They do have a tendency to interpret things differently than the Saraswata acharyas.

Interpretation is a very tricky game.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, I discovered in that experience that in debating on internet forums you can't talk paraphrase or from memory if at all you want to attempt to defend the Saraswata school from outside attack.

 

Since then, I have realized that you can't defend youself on the internet unless you can substantiate all your points with shastra.

 

I think it is a good policy.

 

Devotees like ISKCON preachers and ex-ISKCON Swamis like T Swami have the luxury of preaching in paraphrase or from memory, but they wouldn't last 5 minutes in a serious debate on internet forums where the "scholars, geeks and nerds" would chew them up and spit them out with shastric verse.

[gauragopala dasa]

.If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves. That imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ‘svarupa’. Therefore the ‘perishable’ is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones marginal identity.

“The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him… They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords” . (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.)

Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means which is beyond the confines of material time and space:

 

Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present.

Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, 'the Jivas were created', 'thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya', 'the spiritual world became manifest', 'there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva', material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state. For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit........ I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly. As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception. You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world. Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world." (Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.).

 

"We know there is the 'chit-shakti'. This is composed of the eternal associates of the Lord, the 'shakti-tattwa' personal bodily expansions of Krsna and Radha, who by constitution cannot ever fall. So Vrajanatha asks, is it that the 'chit-shakti' 'has created' the 'Jivas' through some transformation of the 'chit-shakti' itself, by which 'chit-shakti' beings are endowed with this marginal nature, a nature which allows them to come under the influence of 'maya'?"(Hrydayananda dasa Goswami. 1996. Our Original Position. page 110.)

"Babaji's answer is, 'No, 'chit-shakti' is the complete potency of Krsna. Whatever it manifests (comes about from it - 'ubhava karena') are all 'nitya-siddha' objects."(Hrydayananda dasa Goswami. 1996. Our Original Position. page 111.)

The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him. They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords'. However despite the resemblance to God's ('bimba'), no two individuals ('pratibimbatvas') being unique and distinctive, but tiny, will bear the same resemblance to the Lord in every respect, such as spiritual attributes, consciousness and bliss. (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.)

Srila Prabhupada on letter to Australian devotees 1972 - "We cannot say, therefore, that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become the Lord, immediately we are covered by 'maya'. Formerly we were with Krsna in His 'lila', or sport. But this covering of maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore [in the interim] many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant hen one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

It is like a dream: We are thinking it is a very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. To give another example: Krsna's friends were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness this period is considered a second.

Here Srila Prabhupada explains how this condition of illusion is 'very insignificant'. Not only is it insubstantial like a dream, but it is also momentary. Although within the dream unlimited years seem to pass, in reality the dream lasts virtually no time at all, a 'moment' or 'second'.

Then Srila Prabhupada offers another example of how a seeming long duration of time can last only an instant. He recalls the story of how the cowherd boys napped under the spell of Brahma (Srimad Bhagavatam 10:13:40.), for only one 'truti' (8/13,500 of a second) of Brahma's time (Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3:11:14.), while an entire year passed in human time. Srila Prabhupada invokes the relativistic temporal structure of creation to explain how the illusion of the Jiva is insignificant." (Ravindra Swarupa dasa. January/February 1996. BTG, Back to Godhead Magazine. page 19.)

[Guruvani]

 

OK, points all well-taken.

 

Getting back to the discussion, here's what I took away from Sripad Tripurari Maharaja's answer:

 

"Picking" our devotional mood with the Lord is not like shopping for jeans at the Wal-Mart. Rather, our goal is to develop a loving, *reciprocal* relationship with Sri Krishna. So, the mood in which we engage in service will be a product of that reciprocal relationship rather than us *telling* the Lord, "This is how I will serve You".

 

While Guru may not explicitly reveal to us our inner mood, Guru will help draw out our devotion.

 

Is that how you read the statement? What's so screwball about that?

 

I didn't say he was screwball.

I said that he dealt with some lofty concepts without making reference to shastra.

 

He also left out the principle practice of raganuga bhakti which causes the awakening of bhava - the finding of a role model in Vrindavan and always thinking of that role model and the role model's service to Krishna.

 

He seemed to present that the attainment of siddha-deha can be accomplished without this practice of raganuga sadhana.

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has clearly instructed that the aspiring devotee must find a role model in Vrindavan to be one's icon of aspiration.

 

I already quoted that reference in the beginning of this topic.

 

If one cannot refine his aspirations to the point of having a role model in Vrindavan, then how can he ever attain siddha-deha?

 

You can't get to Vrindavan until you feel some kind of attraction to Krishna in a particular relationship.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Yeah, I'm still working on 1 + 1 = 4 (or is that "3"?).

 

 

 

I didn't say he was screwball.

I said that he dealt with some lofty concepts without making reference to shastra.

 

He also left out the principle practice of raganuga bhakti which causes the awakening of bhava - the finding of a role model in Vrindavan and always thinking of that role model and the role model's service to Krishna.

 

He seemed to present that the attainment of siddha-deha can be accomplished without this practice of raganuga sadhana.

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has clearly instructed that the aspiring devotee must find a role model in Vrindavan to be one's icon of aspiration.

 

I already quoted that reference in the beginning of this topic.

 

If one cannot refine his aspirations to the point of having a role model in Vrindavan, then how can he ever attain siddha-deha?

 

You can't get to Vrindavan until you feel some kind of attraction to Krishna in a particular relationship.

[Guruvani]

 

Yeah, I'm still working on 1 + 1 = 4 (or is that "3"?).

 

 

Well, the "Rupanuga" sampradaya isn't called "Rupanuga" for nothing!

[theist]

Such a cool nectarean subject. Too bad we are letting it slip away and degenerate into such criticism of a Vaisnava. Let's try to resurrect it. Maybe we can analyze some of the points Tripurari made.

[Guruvani]

Here in this important purport, Srila Prabhupada describes how a devotee attains a spiritual body according to the ecstacy and spiritual attachment.

 

The concept of "reawakening" a spiritual body or "reviving" a spiritual body that is sometimes described as such is conspicuous by it's absence in this purport as the concept of ATTAINING a spiritual body in accordance with the particular attachment one has for Krishna.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.223 purport,

 

 

One who wants to return home to serve the Lord directly may be attracted to Kṛṣṇa as a servant, friend, father or mother. If a person continuously serves Kṛṣṇa during this life in a particular ecstasy, upon giving up the material body he attains a spiritual body suitable for serving Kṛṣṇa in terms of his particular attachment. One may serve as a servant, friend, father or mother. In the same way, one who wants to serve Kṛṣṇa in conjugal love can attain a body under the guidance of the gopīs. In this connection, the most vivid example is provided by those saintly personalities known as the śrutis, who represent the Upaniṣads. The śrutis understood that without serving Kṛṣṇa and following in the footsteps of the gopīs there would be no possibility of their entering the kingdom of God and serving Kṛṣṇa in the mood of conjugal love. Therefore they engaged in spontaneous loving service unto Kṛṣṇa and followed in the footsteps of the gopīs.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.225

 

'sama-dṛśaḥ'-śabde kahe 'sei bhāve anugati'

'samāḥ'-śabde kahe śrutira gopī-deha-prāpti

 

SYNONYMS

sama-dṛśaḥ śabde — by the word sama-dṛśaḥ; kahe — it says; sei — that; bhāve — in the emotion; anugati — following; samāḥ śabde — by the word samāḥ; kahe — it says; śrutira — of the persons known as the śrutis; gopī-deha — the bodies of gopīs; prāpti — attainment.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The word 'sama-dṛśaḥ,' mentioned in the fourth line of the previous verse, means 'following the mood of the gopīs.' The word 'samāḥ' means 'the śrutis' attainment of bodies like those of the gopīs.'

 

 

Again, we see the concept of "prapti" or "attaining" spiritual bodies in accordance with the attachment and particular desire of the devotee.

 

There is a difference between reviving and attaining a spiritual body.

The idea of attaining a spiritual body is certainly different than the concept of reviving a spiritual body.

 

If we already have a spiritual body that we have forgotten about then it would be reviving the spiritual body and not attaining a spiritual body.

 

If we already have a spiritual body then it would have to be in a dormant condition in the spritual world.

 

The idea of dormant spiritual bodies laying around all over the spiritual world is a ridiculous concept.

[Guruvani]

The Srutis mentioned in the above quote never received any ekadasa bhava assignment from a siddha-pranali guru.

They attained forms as gopis by following in the footsteps of the gopis according to the conjugal attachment to Krishna.

[Guruvani]

Without developing a particular attachment to Krishna by following in the footsteps of one's Vrindavan icon, then there is no chance of going to Goloka Vrindavan.

 

Raganuga bhakti is a necessary practice for entering Goloka.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.226

 

'ańghri-padma-sudhā'ya kahe 'kṛṣṇa-sańgānanda'

vidhi-mārge nā pāiye vraje kṛṣṇa-candra

 

SYNONYMS

ańghri-padma-sudhāya — by the nectar derived from the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa; kahe — it says; kṛṣṇa-sańga-ānanda — transcendental bliss by the association of Kṛṣṇa; vidhi-mārge — on the path of regulative principles; nā pāiye — one does not get; vraje — in Goloka Vṛndāvana; kṛṣṇa-candra — Lord Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The word 'ańghri-padma-sudhā' means 'associating intimately with Kṛṣṇa.' One can attain such perfection only by spontaneous love of God. One cannot obtain Kṛṣṇa in Goloka Vṛndāvana simply by serving the Lord according to regulative principles.

 

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

The spiritual body revivalists use that same concept to inflate their mind with artificial self esteem. This is a trick by the false ego. It paralyzes the Jiva from recognizing the true state of fallenness and suffering they are in, and gives them a sense of already being finished with sadhana, when in fact they have fallen into sahajyaism.

 

There is much more gravity and vigor to ones awareness of their role of serving or offending in their immediate relationships when there is something they must attain by dint of their own effort built on purification of their TRUE CURRENT STATE OF FALLENESS AND MATERIAL SELFISH TENDENCIES, through taking poison (discipline) that turns to nectar later.

 

Srila Prabhupada mentions in Nectar of Devotion that a person who engages in regulative devotional service will, in time, discover that their regulative service BECOMES A SPONTANEOUS EVENT. This matches perfectly well with the awakening in the sadhakas mind of his desiring to emulate and serve a resident of Vraja dham. Thus the beginning of raganuga bhakti. As promised in NOD ch. 5.

 

No external pranali guru necessary. Just do your the regulative service offered by the Spiritual Master, and let the bliss begin.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[Guruvani]

Mahaprabhu clearly instructed Sanatan Goswami that:

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

 

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera 'svarūpa' vicāri

 

 

Mahaprabhu says that the svarupa of the jiva is as a spiritual spark 1/10,000 the size of the tip of a hair.

 

If the svarupa of the jiva was a spiritual body in Goloka, then I am sure Mahaprabhu would have made that known to Sanatan Goswami.

 

The term svarupa is used differently in different contexts.

 

In the verse below Srila Prabhupada translates svarupa as "constitutional position".(not spiritual body or siddha deha)

 

I guess figuring out what "constitutional position" actually means is important to understanding the translation.

 

My idea is that "constitutional position" means what we are by nature constituted to be.

We are all nitya Krishna das, even as we serve maya, the external energy of Krishna.

Either favorably or unfavorably all living beings are serving Krishna with love or in denial.

 

So, we are by constitution a servant of Krishna.

Problem is that we have been serving Krishna unfavorably, in denial since time eternal.

 

Anyway, svarupa means what we were originally meant for.

We are meant to serve Krishna.

That is our svarupa.

We have all been serving Krishna either with love or in denial since time eternal.

We have to learn to serve Krishna in love and not in denial.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109

 

jīvera 'svarūpa' haya — kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa'

kṛṣṇera 'taṭasthā-śakti' 'bhedābheda-prakāśa'

sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya

svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra 'śakti' haya

 

SYNONYMS

jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the constitutional position; haya — is; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nitya-dāsa — eternal servant; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; taṭasthā — marginal; śakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakāśa — manifestation; sūrya-aḿśa — part and parcel of the sun; kiraṇa — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvālā-caya — molecular particle of fire; svābhāvika — naturally; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; tina-prakāra — three varieties; śakti — energies; haya — there are.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.

 

 

The svarupa of the jiva is to serve Krishna.

There is no avoiding serving Krishna.

Liberation means that we agree to serve Krishna favorably with love and devotion.

 

We are already in our svarupa, as we are serving the external energy of Krishna.

We must make that service favorable and then we can go back to Srila Prabhupada's home - back to Godhead. (after we figure out in what way we want to exchange loving affairs with Krishna)

[realist]

 

Hare Krsna

 

The spiritual body revivalists use that same concept to inflate their mind with artificial self esteem. This is a trick by the false ego. It paralyzes the Jiva from recognizing the true state of fallenness and suffering they are in, and gives them a sense of already being finished with sadhana, when in fact they have fallen into sahajyaism.

 

There is much more gravity and vigor to ones awareness of their role of serving or offending in their immediate relationships when there is something they must attain by dint of their own effort built on purification of their TRUE CURRENT STATE OF FALLENESS AND MATERIAL SELFISH TENDENCIES, through taking poison (discipline) that turns to nectar later.

 

Srila Prabhupada mentions in Nectar of Devotion that a person who engages in regulative devotional service will, in time, discover that their regulative service BECOMES A SPONTANEOUS EVENT. This matches perfectly well with the awakening in the sadhakas mind of his desiring to emulate and serve a resident of Vraja dham. Thus the beginning of raganuga bhakti. As promised in NOD ch. 5.

 

No external pranali guru necessary. Just do your the regulative service offered by the Spiritual Master, and let the bliss begin.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

 

My question is are we re-awakening something we long ago abandoned or are we re-establishing something new as we become pure devotees? It leaves the question of our rasa with Krishna, does it already exist or does it develope with our devotional creeper?

[Guruvani]

In this verse is clearly says that it is an awakening.

It doesn't say reawakening.

It says that when we hear about the devotees of Vrindavan that we naturally become inclined toward a particular type of devotion.

So, the first necessisty is that we get the chance to hear about the devotees of Vrindavan through the Gaudiya shastra.

Then as we continue to hear and hear about these devotees we start to feel a certain attraction and attachment toward them and their particular relationship with Krishna.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.155

 

tat-tad-bhāvādi-mādhurye

śrute dhīr yad apekṣate

nātra śāstraḿ na yuktiḿ ca

tal lobhotpatti-lakṣaṇam

 

SYNONYMS

tat-tat — respective; bhāva-ādi-mādhurye — the sweetness of the loving moods (namely śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vātsalya-rasa and mādhurya-rasa) of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana; śrute — when heard; dhīḥ — the intelligence; yat — which; apekṣate — depends on; na — not; atra — here; śāstram — revealed scriptures; na — not; yuktim — logic and argument; ca — also; tat — that; lobha — of covetousness to follow in the footsteps; utpatti-lakṣaṇam — the symptom of awakening.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"'When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vṛndāvana — in the mellows of śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya — he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of śāstra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.'

 

 

If this was a reawakening as opposed to an awakening then surely Mahaprabhu would have used the term reawakening.

 

However, we must note that it says "the advanced, realized devotee" feels this spontaneous attraction when he hears about the devotees of Vrindavan and the pastimes of Krishna.

 

Until we become advanced and realized we cannot really sort these things out properly.

[realist]

I am just trying to correctly understand what the truth is I'm not interested in mental masturbation. What do you make of these quotes from Prabhupada, Im not challenging you I am just trying to understand.

 

If you type re-establish our relationship with Krishna, there are many quotes

 

'The human form of life is meant for reestablishing our relationship with God and acting according to that relationship. Even in ordinary dealings, one businessman who intends to do business with another must first establish some relationship with him, and then transactions can take place. Similarly, a husband and wife establish a relationship by marriage, and then they live together. In a similar way, human life is meant for reestablishing our relationship with God. The material world means forgetfulness of this relationship. There is no krishna consciousness in this material world, for as soon as there is Krsna consciousness, as soon as there is action on the basis of Krsna, it is no longer the material world but the spiritual world. Chapter 25: Unalloyed Devotion Teachings of Queen Kunti by Srila Prabhupada

 

69-12-13 Letter: Satsvarupa

'I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated December 7, 1969 along with the article of Acyutananda. Your decision not to publish this article is correct. To the neophyte devotees we should issue instruction that there are four stages of understanding the Absolute Truth. The first stage is re establishing our relationship with Krishna'.

[Guruvani]

 

I am just trying to correctly understand what the truth is I'm not interested in mental masturbation. What do you make of these quotes from Prabhupada, Im not challenging you I am just trying to understand.

 

If you type re-establish our relationship with Krishna, there are many quotes

 

'The human form of life is meant for reestablishing our relationship with God and acting according to that relationship. Even in ordinary dealings, one businessman who intends to do business with another must first establish some relationship with him, and then transactions can take place. Similarly, a husband and wife establish a relationship by marriage, and then they live together. In a similar way, human life is meant for reestablishing our relationship with God. The material world means forgetfulness of this relationship. There is no krishna consciousness in this material world, for as soon as there is Krsna consciousness, as soon as there is action on the basis of Krsna, it is no longer the material world but the spiritual world. Chapter 25: Unalloyed Devotion Teachings of Queen Kunti by Srila Prabhupada

 

69-12-13 Letter: Satsvarupa

'I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated December 7, 1969 along with the article of Acyutananda. Your decision not to publish this article is correct. To the neophyte devotees we should issue instruction that there are four stages of understanding the Absolute Truth. The first stage is re establishing our relationship with Krishna'.

 

Mahaprabhu instructed Sanatan Goswami that our original subtle nature is that we are a spiritual spark 1/10/000 the size of the tip of a hair.

 

What does that mean?

He taught that the jivas are coming out of the marginal potency which is situated between the material and spiritual world.

 

Does that mean that we fell from Goloka?

 

There is no such teaching anywhere in any shastra that jivas are fallen souls coming from Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Such a proposal has absolutely NO shastric support whatsoever.

 

In fact Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita that all the souls in the spiritual world are infallible.

If they are falling down like flies to become worms in stool, then obviously they are very fallible.

 

Infallible devotees in Goloka can never fall down.

They have NO exposure to maya whatsoever, so there is no chance for them to fall into maya.

 

Jivas are begotten from the marginal potency which Krishna manifests in the marginal plane between the material and spiritual worlds.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 purport,

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that the conclusion to all this confusion is that NO ONE FALLS from the spiritual world.

 

That is the conclusion.

Then END.

 

NO fall from the spiritual world.

 

So, what does that leave us to understand?

[realist]

I read where you are coming from yet there are so many quotes from Prabhupada that says we did fall from Goloka. Even your claim we never fall down is explained by him that we only dream we are fallen when in actual fact non of us ever fall down. What am I to believe? I just read that Prabhupada said we were originally with Krishna. How do you explain that?

[Guruvani]

 

I read where you are coming from yet there are so many quotes from Prabhupada that says we did fall from Goloka. Even your claim we never fall down is explained by him that we only dream we are fallen when in actual fact non of us ever fall down. What am I to believe? I just read that Prabhupada said we were originally with Krishna. How do you explain that?

 

The shastra says were are like sparks from the sun of Krishna.

Originally, the spark was part of the Sun, then a spark came out from the Sun.

So, originally we were integrated parts of Krishna and then just as a photon of light comes out from the Sun we came out from Krishna.

 

So, we came from Krishna.

We must return to Krishna.

But, we can return to Krishna as a servant rathen than as a spark of light in the effulgence of Krishna.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.9.44 purport,

 

The living beings who are in the material world are all disintegrated parts and parcels of the supreme whole, and they are no longer as important as the original parts and parcels. There are, however, more integrated living beings who are eternally liberated.

 

Like a spark of light becomes disintegrated from the Sun and comes out, we have come out of Krishna's effulgence.

But, now we have the chance to become a servant of Krishna in Goloka.

So, all is well that ends well.

 

Shastra has explained this matter quite clearly.

[mahak]

When I grow up, I wanna be a yamadhuita. I want a red buffalo and a noose made of diamonds. I want to associate always with the mahajana authority Lord Yamaraja. I want green skin, matted hair of ashes. I want to follow Yudhisthira and Vidura wherever they go........

[Guruvani]

 

When I grow up, I wanna be a yamadhuita. I want a red buffalo and a noose made of diamonds. I want to associate always with the mahajana authority Lord Yamaraja. I want green skin, matted hair of ashes. I want to follow Yudhisthira and Vidura wherever they go........

 

No problem.

But, it looks like you need to start worshiping Yamaraja!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Awakening, reawakening, it is the same thing for our purposes. We are now asleep so we must awaken. Even if we have some soft faith we may apply that to the consideration and decide that at the awakening, the Perfect Lord will reveal what we need to know about the type of relationship we are waking up to, and it will perfectly match our internal desires concerning our type of Love for him.

 

Remember we are always in our Original Constitutional Position of being at Service, even when we are serving Maha Maya Devi, we are serving the Lord through the personal representative of his own external material energy.

 

We awaken to the fact that we have the option to use our natural tendency to serve in service to the superior nature of Sri Krsna's internal potency, represented by Sri Guru.

 

Santa Rasa is the first stage, it appears to be neutral, but there is a very subtle dasya aspect because Krsna enjoys that there are living entities in Santa rasa, and therefore his pleasure is being served.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Can somebody trot out that popular quote from Thakur Bhaktivinoda again? It's from Jaiva Dharma, right? You know, the one where he talks about how, in the spiritual world there is no past, present or future--all events are happening simultaneously.

 

In that frame of reference, terms like "establish" and "reestablish" have little, if any meaning. There's nothing to explain, really.

 

 

I read where you are coming from yet there are so many quotes from Prabhupada that says we did fall from Goloka. Even your claim we never fall down is explained by him that we only dream we are fallen when in actual fact non of us ever fall down. What am I to believe? I just read that Prabhupada said we were originally with Krishna. How do you explain that?

[realist]

I don't think it is as clear as you believe, please explain this quote from Prabhupadas introduction to the Bhagavad Gita

 

"Our unique, individual relationship with the Lord is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. Unfortunately, in the present status of our conditioned life, we have not only forgotten the Lord, we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. By engagine in the process of devotional service, called svarupa, we can revive that eternal relationship".

 

Once again I am only trying to understand the truth yet it appears to me Prabhupada leans more to our origin being from Vaikuntha.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thakur Bhaktivinoda clearly explains that any such time-based terminology is used for the benefit of our puppy-brains, and has no absolute meaning.

 

I'm sorry if you're not satisfied, but there's no way I'll be able to make it any more clear than the acharya has!

 

Your best bet is to sit at the feet of a realized soul and ask these questions if the sayings and writings of the predecessor acharyas baffle you.

 

 

I don't think it is as clear as you believe, please explain this quote from Prabhupadas introduction to the Bhagavad Gita

 

"Our unique, individual relationship with the Lord is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. Unfortunately, in the present status of our conditioned life, we have not only forgotten the Lord, we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. By engagine in the process of devotional service, called svarupa, we can revive that eternal relationship".

 

Once again I am only trying to understand the truth yet it appears to me Prabhupada leans more to our origin being from Vaikuntha.

[Guruvani]

 

I don't think it is as clear as you believe, please explain this quote from Prabhupadas introduction to the Bhagavad Gita

 

"Our unique, individual relationship with the Lord is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. Unfortunately, in the present status of our conditioned life, we have not only forgotten the Lord, we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. By engagine in the process of devotional service, called svarupa, we can revive that eternal relationship".

 

Once again I am only trying to understand the truth yet it appears to me Prabhupada leans more to our origin being from Vaikuntha.

The relationship is that we were integrated with Krishna.

We must become reintegrated with Krishna.

By the blessings of the pure devotees we can integrate with Krishna as his devotee rather than as a spark of his effulgence.

 

Both conditions are integration with Krishna.