Choosing our rasa with Krishna

[Guruvani]

 

The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport.” LETTER TO Autralian devotees 1972

 

 

Maha-Vishnu is a form of Krishna and his creating the material world is one of his lilas or sporting pastimes.

We have always been with Krishna in his sport or lila because Krishna has always been in our heart guiding us through our material journey which is also part of his sport or lila.

We are right now with Krishna in his sport or lila of guiding conditioned souls toward eternal life of bliss and knowledge.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada has said nothing wrong or against the shastra or against the shastric conclusions here.

What he has said is a very tactical statement to support the claim that the eternal constitutional nature of the soul is to serve Krishna and that Krishna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind.

 

There is nothing false in the above statement of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It does not say that we fell from Goloka which is an erroneous conclusion that contradicts shastra praman.

[realist]

The more I reasch this Guruvani the more I discover what Prabhupada is actually saying, its an extremely fascinating revelation

Srila Prabhupada “There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self. The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva. In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness. This characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of awareness.

[realist]

This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is also a temporary dreaming dreamless state.

 

Srila Prabhupada “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.

 

Srila Prabhupada ‘Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease’.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada then recommends that we not waste time with the question of our origin. But note that he first gave clear answers to the question. We should follow the same policy. Answer the question as above, and then suggest we not waste further time with it.

[Guruvani]

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.34 purport

 

 

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees.

 

Krishna always protects his pure devotees.

There is no chance they can fall down.

[realist]

There are many, many devotees who follow this understanding. Your posts are very interesting Guruvani, don't feel threatened by seeking the truth, I am also only trying sincerely to get to the heart of what Prabhupada is saying. I have been studying your argument and quotes and others argument who reject our fall from Vaikuntha in this way by saying ‘When we cannot contact <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s lila’? And it is this way we are always with Krishna in His lila’? I have heard some say that when Srila Prabhupada earlier said that we were originally with Krishna in His lila, or sport, they thought that this might just mean that we were in contact with one of Krishna’s energies—maya or the brahmajyoti. In other words, it doesn’t mean we were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> personally. But this interpretation is not supported by Srila Prabhupada and he rejects their idea.

[realist]

Srila Prabhupada also has directly stated in this text that we were not originally in the brahmajyoti. And in the first part of the text he said: “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration.” So when Srila Prabhupada said we were in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s lila, he meant before we were covered by the material energy, maya. In this context, the only allowable reading of lila is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s pastimes, as we commonly understand them from the Tenth Canto of the Bhagavatam. But when we come to the material world, we remain in Krishna’s lila in the sense of being in contact with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s energies.

 

Drutakarma Dasa - ‘So in this famous crow and tal fruit message, which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls:

1. We were originally with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in His lila, or sport.

2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti.

3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet.

[realist]

4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<ST1:PlaceName w:st=" /><ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">River</ST1:PlaceType>.

5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.

On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer the questions raised at the beginning of this paper. Yes, we were originally with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. No, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PlaceName w:st="on">Viraja</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">River</ST1:PlaceType></st1:place>. No, our relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> was not undeveloped.

 

The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory.

 

To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements.

 

The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krishna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority”.

[Guruvani]

The fall-from-vaikuntha is faulty because the myth that all the jivas in the material world are fallen from Vaikuntha doesn't accomodate the fact that Krishna is always expanding his internal potency. With the expansion of the internal potency of Krishna his pastimes, associates and qualities are unlimitedly and eternally expanding.

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā:

 

 

"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your internal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them." The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn but also avyaya, inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible.

 

The conditioned souls of the material world are all a result of the ever expanding internal potency of Krishna.

Krishna expands his internal potency by impregnating prakriti with the seeds of jivas souls.

They are not fallen from perfection in Vaikuntha.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Problem is, we cannot actually divorce any position within the spiritual or material realms from being part of Krsna's lila.

 

And Krsna is experiencing it all personally, through his Paramatma feature.

 

While inconceivably remaining aloof from all but his experiences in his home village of Vrndaban.

 

It may be inconceivable, but that don't make it false.

 

There was never a time nor will there ever be where a living entity is not participating in Krsna's lila in a way in which Krsna is directly consciously aware of the factual existence and condition of that living entity.

 

That the living entity may not be aware of this truth is a different story, and has no bearing on the truth of the principle.

 

And then, there are those who are already in some realized rasa with Krnsa in the spiritual world, and they descend (not fall) into Maha Maya's realm, and they can get the experience, via Yoga Maya, of being in material nescience and then awakened by their Guru Maharaja. For these, they were "Formerly with Krsna in his Lila or Sport". They may be experiencing a motion from Santa rasa or any other rasa, to one higher.

 

The distinction being that while being with Krsna in his lila in a way where only he is Aware of it, is ONE yet Different than being with Krsna in his lila where you are aware and attracted to him and who he is.

 

Always expanding.

[Guruvani]

The fall-from-vaikuntha theory is a misconception because it is based upon the premise that liberated souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka are vulnerable to the four defects of a conditoned soul.

The Four Defects of the Conditioned Soul

1. Imperfect Senses (Karanapatava): The senses are limited and can easily be misled.
   
2. Illusion (Pramada): Accepting as real something that is not real.
   
3. Mistakes (Bhrama): "To err is human."
   
4. Cheating (Vipralipsa): To propagate falsehood, to present yourself as something you are not.

The shastra says in many places that the liberated souls of Vaikuntha are above these four defects.

 

The fall from Goloka theory is totally bogus because it is based on the faulty premise that in fact liberated souls have the defect of pramada - that they can become illusioned.

 

Liberated souls can never become illusioned.

As such, they cannot be in Goloka dreaming that they are in the material world as a conditioned living being.

They cannot even be in the material world and be in illusion.

 

This very evidence absolutely destroys the bogus fall-from-goloka theory that opposes all the shastra praman on the perfection of liberated souls.

 

Drutakarma dasa and his cronies are showing quite definitively that they are conditioned souls and suffering from illusion - the illusion that liberated souls can become illusioned and fall into maya.

[Guruvani]

The fall-from-goloka theory is the product of conditioned souls with the four defects.

 

1. Imperfect Senses (Karanapatava): The senses are limited and can easily be misled.
   
2. Illusion (Pramada): Accepting as real something that is not real.
   
3. Mistakes (Bhrama): "To err is human."
   
4. Cheating (Vipralipsa): To propagate falsehood, to present yourself as something you are not.

Because in fact liberated souls in Vaikuntha are above these four defects and have perfect senses, cannot become illusioned, never make mistakes and never propagate falsehood.

 

As such, there is no possibility that a liberated soul in Goloka, Vaikuntha or anywhere else can be victim of illusion.

 

The fall from Goloka theory challenges the authority of shastra and propagates falsehood that contradicts shastra on the infallibility of the nitya-siddhas.

 

The fall-from-goloka theory is a challenge to the shastric tradition as it propounds a new theory that cannot be found in shastra and in fact is totally refuted by shastric evidence.

[Guruvani]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.149 purport,

 

 

Since the kṛṣṇa-bhakta, the devotee of Kṛṣṇa, is satisfied with Kṛṣṇa, there is no possibility of falldown.

The devotees of Krishna are all totally satisfied with Krishna.

There is no chance that they would want to leave Krishna's service and go to serving Maya.

The theory that pure devotees in Goloka somehow become unsatisfied with Krishna's service and choose to leave Goloka is another ISKCON myth that is directly rejected by Mahaprabhu in his instructions to Rupa Goswami.