The Buddhist

[AncientMariner]

 

Since Buddhists believe, "there is repetition of birth and death", they're more advanced than Christians and our whole Western intellectual elite back and forth who say, there is no repetition of birth and death. Did Lord Caitanya preach to Christians, no, but He preached to the Buddhists.

In sum, Buddhists can't be so bad.

 

Don't know if it is true or not but I have heard some scholars say that original Christianity had the concept of reincarnation but it was later taken out. If this is so than it seems Christianity would be superior to to Buddhism because Christianity acknowledges the supremacy of God whereas my understanding of Buddhism is the Buddhist is trying to become God or become one with God or something.

[Guruvani]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 9.49

 

 

Following in the footsteps of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, all the preachers engaged in the service of ISKCON should be very expert in putting forward strong arguments and defeating all types of atheists.

 

So much for the namby-pamby warm and fuzzy approach?

[theist]

 

Since Buddhists believe, "there is repetition of birth and death", they're more advanced than Christians and our whole Western intellectual elite back and forth who say, there is no repetition of birth and death. Did Lord Caitanya preach to Christians, no, but He preached to the Buddhists.

In sum, Buddhists can't be so bad.

 

Well don't you find it significant that there were plenty of Buddhists in India, being the birth land of Lord Buddha and His field for preaching, and hardly any Christians? How could He preach to someone who isn't there?

 

The idea that Lord Caitanya who came to reclaim the most fallen is actually validating to some degree the lifestyle of those He preaches to makes no sense whatsoever.

[AncientMariner]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 9.49

 

 

 

So much for the namby-pamby warm and fuzzy approach?

 

Atheists are easy to defeat but it doesn't matter how much you defeat them they are so in the dark they still think they are right. I guess the empowered acaryas are so powerful they can even awake these sleepers. For me I can preach until I am blue in the face and the atheist still thinks he is right so mostly I just try to avoid them.

[Guruvani]

 

Well don't you find it significant that there were plenty of Buddhists in India, being the birth land of Lord Buddha and His field for preaching, and hardly any Christians? How could He preach to someone who isn't there?

 

http://www.webindia123.com/religion/christian/found.htm

 

 

Christianity in India is as old as Saint Thomas, one of the Apostles of Jesus Christ. He is believed to have landed some where near Cochin in Kerala, by the middle of the first century AD. After having preached Gospel and having founded several Christian communities, he went to Madras because of local antagonism to his religious activities. St. Thomas was finally killed there, by some of his opponents.

Until The sixteenth century the Christians of Saint Thomas formed a stable and well organized church. By about 1500 AD they were founded only in the central regions of modern Kerala, but later existed in many more places. The declining state of affairs among the St. Thomas Christians were due to the repeated invasions that affected nearly the whole of India.

 

[AncientMariner]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 9.49

 

 

 

So much for the namby-pamby warm and fuzzy approach?

 

 

I am actually a supporter of Prabhupada's proactive stance of declaring war on atheism in all of its forms. I remember reading a quote where he said we should declare war on atheistic nations etc. That would be cool but the problem is nobody has your back in this day and age.

[theist]

 

Quote:

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Well don't you find it significant that there were plenty of Buddhists in India, being the birth land of Lord Buddha and His field for preaching, and hardly any Christians? How could He preach to someone who isn't there?

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http://www.webindia123.com/religion/christian/found.htm

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Christianity in India is as old as Saint Thomas, one of the Apostles of Jesus Christ. He is believed to have landed some where near Cochin in Kerala, by the middle of the first century AD. After having preached Gospel and having founded several Christian communities, he went to Madras because of local antagonism to his religious activities. St. Thomas was finally killed there, by some of his opponents.

Until The sixteenth century the Christians of Saint Thomas formed a stable and well organized church. By about 1500 AD they were founded only in the central regions of modern Kerala, but later existed in many more places. The declining state of affairs among the St. Thomas Christians were due to the repeated invasions that affected nearly the whole of India.

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Thanks for making my point for me although I doubt you recognize it. I said hardly any Christians. As far as I know He never even ran into any of the handful that were sprinkled around the continent.

 

I take His meeting with the Muslim Kazi, whatever his name was, and showing him theism within the Koran as an example of how to speak to Christians also. Either show them theism in the Bible or leave them alone is my approach. Mostly I leave them alone.

[theist]

 

I am actually a supporter of Prabhupada's proactive stance of declaring war on atheism in all of its forms. I remember reading a quote where he said we should declare war on atheistic nations etc. That would be cool but the problem is nobody has your back in this day and age.

 

Yes I know that quote. He said specifically America should declare that war. BUT first America was to become really under the will of God and we know that has yet to be achieved. Understatement of the decade.

[suchandra]

 

How could He preach to someone who isn't there?

 

 

If the first Christians came 52 AD to India there must have been quite a lot till the 15th century.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India

 

"According to the 3rd century Acts of Thomas, the first Christians in India were converted by St Thomas the Apostle, who arrived at Kodungallur on the Malabar Coast of India in 52 AD. It is also important to note that the first Christian baptisms in India were performed by the saint.

 

The Syrian Malabar Nasrani people are an ethnic community in Kerala, South India. Their tradition goes back to the very beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that were established by St. Thomas the Apostle among the natives and the Jewish diaspora in Kerala. They follow a unique Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition which includes several Jewish elements along with some Hindu customs. Their heritage is Syriac-Keralite, their culture South Indian, their faith St. Thomas Christian, and their language Malayalam. According to the Acts of Thomas, the first converts made by Thomas in India were Malabari Jews, who had settled in Kerala since the time of King Solomon of Israel.

 

There is a general agreement among the historians that St. Thomas, a Jew himself by birth, visited India in search of Jews settled here.

 

Although the Christian ideals were foreign, many Hindus embraced the ideologies of baptism because of its similarities to bathing in the Ganges, which was first mentioned in the Rig Veda, the Mahabharata, and the Devi Bhagvatam . After evangelizing in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, the Apostle is believed to have been martyred at St. Thomas Mount in Chennai and buried on the site of San Thome Cathedral. Members of the Syro-Malabar Church, an eastern rite of the Catholic Church, adopted the Syriac liturgy dating from an unknown period before 4 th Century. In the 4th century, Apostle’s relics were taken to Edessa at the instance of the then Bishop of Edessa under whose jurisdiction the Kerala Church was and was later moved to Italy. The Christian community founded by St Thomas has since developed into a number of churches during the Portuguese persecution, including Syriac-rite churches in communion with the Roman Catholic, Antiochian Orthodox churches, and 'Nestorian' churches.

 

The arrival of St Thomas, and the subsequent establishment of the seven and a half churches is viewed with skepticism by Western historians. However, the theory has never been discounted, and the Keralites still attribute an apostolic origin to their church."

[theist]

 

If the first Christians came 52 AD to India there must have been quite a lot till the 15th century.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India

 

"According to the 3rd century Acts of Thomas, the first Christians in India were converted by St Thomas the Apostle, who arrived at Kodungallur on the Malabar Coast of India in 52 AD. It is also important to note that the first Christian baptisms in India were performed by the saint.

 

The Syrian Malabar Nasrani people are an ethnic community in Kerala, South India. Their tradition goes back to the very beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that were established by St. Thomas the Apostle among the natives and the Jewish diaspora in Kerala. They follow a unique Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition which includes several Jewish elements along with some Hindu customs. Their heritage is Syriac-Keralite, their culture South Indian, their faith St. Thomas Christian, and their language Malayalam. According to the Acts of Thomas, the first converts made by Thomas in India were Malabari Jews, who had settled in Kerala since the time of King Solomon of Israel.

 

There is a general agreement among the historians that St. Thomas, a Jew himself by birth, visited India in search of Jews settled here.

 

Although the Christian ideals were foreign, many Hindus embraced the ideologies of baptism because of its similarities to bathing in the Ganges, which was first mentioned in the Rig Veda, the Mahabharata, and the Devi Bhagvatam . After evangelizing in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, the Apostle is believed to have been martyred at St. Thomas Mount in Chennai and buried on the site of San Thome Cathedral. Members of the Syro-Malabar Church, an eastern rite of the Catholic Church, adopted the Syriac liturgy dating from an unknown period before 4 th Century. In the 4th century, Apostle’s relics were taken to Edessa at the instance of the then Bishop of Edessa under whose jurisdiction the Kerala Church was and was later moved to Italy. The Christian community founded by St Thomas has since developed into a number of churches during the Portuguese persecution, including Syriac-rite churches in communion with the Roman Catholic, Antiochian Orthodox churches, and 'Nestorian' churches.

 

The arrival of St Thomas, and the subsequent establishment of the seven and a half churches is viewed with skepticism by Western historians. However, the theory has never been discounted, and the Keralites still attribute an apostolic origin to their church."

 

Please read my response to Guruvani on this same point.

[AncientMariner]

 

Yes I know that quote. He said specifically America should declare that war. BUT first America was to become really under the will of God and we know that has yet to be achieved. Understatement of the decade.

 

 

True enough. America can't even get the atheism out of its school systems etc.

[theist]

 

True enough. America can't even get the atheism out of its school systems etc.

 

Yeah for sure. I have encountered devotees here that are also against allowing prayer in schools. Go figure.

[Guruvani]

 

Yeah for sure. I have encountered devotees here that are also against allowing prayer in schools. Go figure.

I never could figure out that fanaticism about prayer in school.

What they want is the right to make a public spectacle out of it.

 

Anybody can say a silent prayer any time they want and nobody has to even known.

 

The prayer in school movement is being pushed by fundamentalist Christians just like they would like to cram their religion down the throat of everybody if they could get away with it.

 

There is no need for a public prayer spectacle in school.

Silent prayer can be done anytime.

 

A student can pray silently at recess or in between classes or during class as far as that goes.

 

Mathew 6-6

 

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

So, Jesus said go pray in a closet.

There is no need for public prayer in school.

[AncientMariner]

Isn't there some story in the Vedas where the kids are going to their demonic school masters that want to teach them about economic development etc. but the one devotee child is only interested in chanting and singing Hare Krishna or something and all his schoolmates love him? Can't remember if that was Prahhlada Maharaja or who it was.

[AncientMariner]

 

I never could figure out that fanaticism about prayer in school.

What they want is the right to make a public spectacle out of it.

 

Anybody can say a silent prayer any time they want and nobody has to even known.

 

The prayer in school movement is being pushed by fundamentalist Christians just like they would like to cram their religion down the throat of everybody if they could get away with it.

 

There is no need for a public prayer spectacle in school.

Silent prayer can be done anytime.

 

A student can pray silently at recess or in between classes or during class as far as that goes.

 

Mathew 6-6

 

So, Jesus said go pray in a closet.

There is no need for public prayer in school.

 

 

I can understand your objections to religiosity being shoved down people's throats and I agree that has no place in the shool system as that is just merely harrassment but what you are saying here seems to me to be somewhat in conflict with what Prabhupada says in a purport from Canto 7, Ch. 6, Text 2 of Srimad Bhagavatam entitled Prahlada Instructs His Demoniac Schoolmates:

 

"In all the schools, colleges and universities, and at home, all children and youths should be taught to hear the instructions of Bhagavad Gita, to put them into practice in their lives, and thus to become strong in devotional service, free from the fear of being degraded to animal life."

 

I know personally I don't want to be in the camp of people that would silence Prahlada Maharaja. More power to Him as far as I am concerned and if he wants to pray out loud and instruct his schoolmates in devotional service then I don't have any objections.

[Guruvani]

 

 

"In all the schools, colleges and universities, and at home, all children and youths should be taught to hear the instructions of Bhagavad Gita, to put them into practice in their lives, and thus to become strong in devotional service, free from the fear of being degraded to animal life."

 

 

I didn't hear anything about praying in school.

It appears that Srila Prabhupada wanted the Bhagavad Gita to be an academic course in a secular school.

 

He didn't say anything about praying in school.

 

So, really I don't get your point.

 

Srila Prabhupada never said anything about prayer in public school.

 

He just suggested that Bhagavad Gita could be taught as an academic course.

 

That doesn't mean that everybody should drag their sentimental religion into school and turn school into a prayer meeting.

[AncientMariner]

 

I didn't hear anything about praying in school.

It appears that Srila Prabhupada wanted the Bhagavad Gita to be an academic course in a secular school.

 

He didn't say anything about praying in school.

 

So, really I don't get your point.

 

Srila Prabhupada never said anything about prayer in public school.

 

He just suggested that Bhagavad Gita could be taught as an academic course.

 

That doesn't mean that everybody should drag their sentimental religion into school and turn school into a prayer meeting.

 

 

Nevertheless I don't have any objections to kids praying out loud in school if that is their choice but whatever floats your boat.

[Guruvani]

 

Nevertheless I don't have any objections to kids praying out loud in school if that is their choice but whatever floats your boat.

 

But, to make such demands in a secular society based on separation of church and state is simply fanaticism.

Religious fanaticism will eventually cause the annihilation of mankind.

I am opposed to it.

 

If people want their kids to pray in school then they should find a parochial school that promotes religious practice.

 

God doesn't need to destroy the world for it's sins.

Religious fanaticism will do it soon enough.

[AncientMariner]

 

But, to make such demands in a secular society based on separation of church and state is simply fanaticism.

Religious fanaticism will eventually cause the annihilation of mankind.

I am opposed to it.

 

If people want their kids to pray in school then they should find a parochial school that promotes religious practice.

 

God doesn't need to destroy the world for it's sins.

Religious fanaticism will do it soon enough.

 

 

Fair enough but then those same parents shouldn't be forced to pay taxes to support the public schools but even then I can not in good conscience try to silence prayer in any form.

[Guruvani]

 

Fair enough but then those same parents shouldn't be forced to pay taxes to support the public schools but even then I can not in good conscience try to silence prayer in any form.

 

Devotees can go to the temple and pray in front of the deities.

There is no need to do it in school.

 

Prayers are supposed to be offered in the temple in front of the Lord.

 

They can pray before school and after school to their heart's content.

 

The school prayer movement is about religious bigotry and fanaticism.

It's not about God consciousness.

 

If we just remember God then he already knows our needs.

We don't need to beg him for anything.

He already knows what we need more than we do.

 

If we just remember God in our heart then that is as good as any prayer.

 

Remembering is a valid form of devotional service.

 

Prayer isn't the only form of devotional service.

[AncientMariner]

 

Devotees can go to the temple and pray in front of the deities.

There is no need to do it in school.

 

Prayers are supposed to be offered in the temple in front of the Lord.

 

They can pray before school and after school to their heart's content.

 

The school prayer movement is about religious bigotry and fanaticism.

It's not about God consciousness.

 

If we just remember God then he already knows our needs.

We don't need to beg him for anything.

He already knows what we need more than we do.

 

If we just remember God in our heart then that is as good as any prayer.

 

Remembering is a valid form of devotional service.

 

Prayer isn't the only form of devotional service.

 

Okay, I herby deputize you as a loyal member of the United States Government Prayer Police. You have the authority to arrest anyone praying in school or in any public place.

[Guruvani]

 

Okay, I herby deputize you as a loyal member of the United States Government Prayer Police. You have the authority to arrest anyone praying in school or in any public place.

Why can't they pray before they go to state school?

Why can't they pray after state school?

Why must they make a spectacle of prayer in a state school and demand official time for religion in a state school?

 

I've had three kids go through public school.

I could care less if the state school has official prayer time for religious zealots and bigots.

 

I guess I am an American and not a Hare Krishna when it comes to public schools.

 

I agree with Jesus.

Prayer should be done in your closet.

[AncientMariner]

 

Why can't they pray before they go to state school?

Why can't they pray after state school?

Why must they make a spectacle of prayer in a state school and demand official time for religion in a state school?

 

I've had three kids go through public school.

I could care less if the state school has official prayer time for religious zealots and bigots.

 

I guess I am an American and not a Hare Krishna when it comes to public schools.

 

I agree with Jesus.

Prayer should be done in your closet.

 

It is now your duty to travel the nation and remind anyone praying out loud in public that they shouldn't do that or they will be subject to fines and possible imprisonment. The fine is a 50$ ticket for the first offense, followed by 100$ and then community service. Prayer is now allowed only in official temples of the Lord and in homes. Any prayer outside of these venues will be punishable by the laws of the United States.

[Guruvani]

 

It is now your duty to travel the nation and remind anyone praying out loud in public that they shouldn't do that or they will be subject to fines and possible imprisonment. The fine is a 50$ ticket for the first offense, followed by 100$ and then community service.

Mahaprabhu took his movement to the streets, not into the public schools.

Srila Prabhupada was never one to rock the boat when it comes to breaking state laws.

He wanted his devotees to propagate the movement legally.

If it is illegal to pray in school, then so be it.

 

There is plenty of freedom to pray before school and after school, so we should be satisfied that a democractic society allows us that freedom.

 

School prayer is a movement of the fundanmentalist Christians.

I don't want to join their movement.

 

Hare Krishnas chant on the street and they have always been satisfied with that.

 

Srila Prabhupada never encouraged any movement to force prayer in public schools.

 

It's a Christian movement.

They can have it.

I don't need it.

[AncientMariner]

 

Mahaprabhu took his movement to the streets, not into the public schools.

Srila Prabhupada was never one to rack the boat when it comes to breaking state laws.

He wanted his devotees to propagate the movement legally.

If it is illegal to pray in school, then so be it.

 

There is plenty of freedom to pray before school and after school, so we should be satisfied that a democractic society allows us that freedom.

 

School prayer is a movement of the fundanmentalist Christians.

I don't want to join their movement.

 

Hare Krishna's chant on the street and they have always been satisfied with that.

 

Srila Prabhupada never encouraged any movement to force prayer in public schools.

 

It's a Christian movement.

They can have it.

I don't need it.

 

The streets are a public place so Hare Krishna's should only chant to themselves while on the street. No out loud chanting or prayer is now allowed in public places under your new authority as a member of the Prayer Police.