The Buddhist

[AncientMariner]

What do you make of this conversation:

 

 

Student: Yes. But, you see, right now you can't chant Hare Krsna in the schools. That law is still there on the books. You can't chant until somebody changes the law.

Srila Prabhupada: So my disciples can do that.

Student: They should try to fight the law?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just recently I heard that the senators and congressmen have set aside one special day each year for public prayer. Just one day--but they still want prayer. So if they actually want prayer, why are they prohibiting it all the rest of the year? Just see the contradiction! They have banned prayer because of their inexperience. And now they are experiencing, "This does not help us." Otherwise, what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that without prayer things have failed. That is a fact.

Student: You were saying earlier that fifty to sixty percent of the senators and congressmen are lawyers...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and nowadays "lawyer" means cheater. One who can tactfully break the law--he is a good lawyer. They will find some flaw in the letter of the law so that they can avoid the spirit of the law.

Student: Actually, to ban prayer in the schools they had to avoid the whole point of the First Amendment--that "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion." They said a prayer might trample an atheist's right not to pray.

Srila Prabhupada: So now the children cannot have a prayer in their schools. These government men are mostly lawyers, cheaters. Like Nixon. What is the situation now?

Student: Well, he couldn't get any less popular; so now he's getting more popular. People forget.

Srila Prabhupada: People have become cheaters, and that is why they elect such cheaters as their representatives. You Americans can make all the propaganda you want, but you will not be happy without offering prayer to God.

[Guruvani]

 

Do you still support the ban on the chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra in public schools?

 

Anybody can chant silently.

I chant silently at work all the time and nobody even knows I am chanting.

 

We don't have to make a spectacle out of it if it is illegal.

 

Fanaticism has never accomplished anything.

[AncientMariner]

 

Anybody can chant silently.

I chant silently at work all the time and nobody even knows I am chanting.

 

We don't have to make a spectacle out of it if it is illegal.

 

Fanaticism has never accomplished anything.

 

 

Prabhupada in the previous conversation seems to indicate that his disciples should fight the law that bans prayer in school. Are you in opposition to Prabhupada on that?

[AncientMariner]

 

Anybody can chant silently.

I chant silently at work all the time and nobody even knows I am chanting.

 

We don't have to make a spectacle out of it if it is illegal.

 

Fanaticism has never accomplished anything.

 

 

What is your recommended punishment for people caught chanting out loud?

[Guruvani]

 

What is your recommended punishment for people caught chanting out loud?

 

Look.

I am a realist.

I have been arrested before and done jail time.

Breaking the law and going to jail is stupid.

 

Go get the laws changed if you are so fired-up about it.

 

As long as it is illegal I say obey the law.

If somebody can change the law then fine.

I have better things to do with my life besides fighting the federal government to allow prayer in school.

 

Anybody can chant under their breath and nobody will even know.

Nobody can stop you from chanting if you do it right.

[AncientMariner]

 

Look.

I am a realist.

I have been arrested before and done jail time.

Breaking the law and going to jail is stupid.

 

Go get the laws changed if you are so fired-up about it.

 

As long as it is illegal I say obey the law.

If somebody can change the law then fine.

I have better things to do with my life besides fighting the federal government to allow prayer in school.

 

Anybody can chant under their breath and nobody will even know.

Nobody can stop you from chanting if you do it right.

 

 

You were the one telling me it is Prabhupada's program to endorse the ban on school prayer but it appears that is not the case.

[Guruvani]

 

What is your recommended punishment for people caught chanting out loud?

 

Well pal, I have already shown the loophole.

Chanting is not prayer.

It should not be illegal.

 

Chanting is advertising.

Is there a law against advertising God in school?

propably.....

[AncientMariner]

 

Well pal, I have already shown the loophole.

Chanting is not prayer.

It should not be illegal.

 

Chanting is advertising.

Is there a law against advertising God in school?

propably.....

 

 

Well apparently under the law they consider chanting the Hare Krishna mantra as a violation of the ban on school prayer. So I am glad you finally are in agreement with Prabhupada that his disciples should fight this law.

[Guruvani]

 

You were the one telling me it is Prabhupada's program to endorse the ban on school prayer but it appears that is not the case.

that's a cheap shot and it is not true.

 

Show me where Srila Prabhupada told his disciples to break the law and get arrested.

 

It doesn't matter to me even if he did.

I ain't going to jail over it because it doesn't accomplish anything.

 

I have already been arrested and put in jail for distributing books on the street.

The organizers didn't have my name on the permit.

 

So, I learned the hard way you have to obey the law or you end up in jail with nothing fit to eat.

[Guruvani]

 

Well apparently under the law they consider chanting the Hare Krishna mantra as a violation of the ban on school prayer. So I am glad you finally are in agreement with Prabhupada that his disciples should fight this law.

 

If the Christian majority in this country with all their wealth, power and influence can't get school prayer approved then a few Hare Krishna's with an agenda aren't going to make any difference.

[theist]

Such a confused soul. "Chanting a prayer is not prayer it is chanting. " LOL

 

Please revisit the story of Prahlada and his demonic father Hiranyakasipu, the lawmaker for the land. Did Prahlada worry about obeying the demon's law not to chant and teach about the Supreme Lord? Even in the face of being poisoned, hurled off a cliff, stomped on by an elephant and whatever else I can't remember Prahlada would not renounce his faith.

 

Guruvani sometimes we have to admit we made a mistake and got something wrong. It is so much easier to do that then to go through the tortured word games you are going through now even to the point of twisting Srila Prabhupada's words into backbending distortions to make yourself sound right. Nobody is buying your attempt and it is actually embarassing to witness.

[theist]

 

that's a cheap shot and it is not true.

 

Show me where Srila Prabhupada told his disciples to break the law and get arrested.

 

It doesn't matter to me even if he did.

I ain't going to jail over it because it doesn't accomplish anything.

 

I have already been arrested and put in jail for distributing books on the street.

The organizers didn't have my name on the permit.

 

So, I learned the hard way you have to obey the law or you end up in jail with nothing fit to eat.

OK you don't have the stomach for civil disobedience. I can understand that. Or you may just outright disagree with what Prabhupada said. That is all right also. I disagree sometimes to so i can't judge you for that. But to deliberately distort what he said and to broadcast that distortion on a public forum is shameless and strange behavior for someone who places ACBSP after his name.

[Guruvani]

 

But to deliberately distort what he said and to broadcast that distortion on a public forum is shameless and strange behavior for someone who places ACBSP after his name.

 

It's not a distortion.

Chanting the Maha Mantra is not a prayer.

 

It's a scientific process for connection ourself to Krishna and his energy.

 

Mantra japa is not a prayer.

 

Kirtan is not a prayer.

 

Sankirtan is not a prayer.

 

Never has been never will be.

 

It is an offering of service, not a prayer.

 

It is not a prayer and you can't show anywhere in the shastra where the Maha Mantra is said to be a prayer.

[theist]

You already demanded that you be shown where Srila Prabhupada said chanting was a prayer and AM pasted the conversation up. And now you ask again?

 

See you on another topic.

[Guruvani]

 

You already demanded that you be shown where Srila Prabhupada said chanting was a prayer and AM pasted the conversation up. And now you ask again?

 

See you on another topic.

I don't think Srila Prabhupada ever changed the meaning of mantra to "prayer".

Even if he did I don't accept it as anything more than a preaching tactic and not an actual fact.

 

It is just one more preaching device Srila Prabhupada used.

It is not an actual fact.

 

chanting is service, not prayer.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

"Chanting the Hare Krishna mantra is the easiest process of meditation in this age. As soon as one chants the Hare Krishna mantra, he sees the forms of Krishna, Rama and their energies and this is the perfect stage of trance. One should not artificially try to see the form of the Lord while chanting Hare Krishna but when the chanting is performed offenselessly the Lord will automatically reveal Himself to the view of the chanter. The chanter therefore has to concentrate on hearing the vibration and without extra effort on His part the Lord will appear automatically."

 

Here, Srila Prabhupada says chanting is meditation.

Nothing about prayer that I can see.

[AncientMariner]

 

If the Christian majority in this country with all their wealth, power and influence can't get school prayer approved then a few Hare Krishna's with an agenda aren't going to make any difference.

 

 

Fair enough but at least you have come to the point where you are in agreement with Prabhupada that this is a useless law. Before you were telling me how people shouldn't be allowed to pray out loud in school and if they do they should be locked in closets. I am proud of you for now seeing the light.

[Guruvani]

 

Fair enough but at least you have come to the point where you are in agreement with Prabhupada that this is a useless law. Before you were telling me how people shouldn't be allowed to pray out loud in school and if they do they should be locked in closets. I am proud of you for now seeing the light.

 

Well, I have been around this country long enough to know that a cult of Hare Krishnas aren't going to change federal law.

 

I go with the flow and adapt to the circumstances.

 

I don't live in LA-LA Land by living in fantasies and wasting my time on a lost cause.

 

Reality is that school prayer is illegal.

Until they change the law I recommend that people obey the law.

 

Hare Krishnas aren't going to change the law.

 

I deal with reality.

 

Somebody else can waste their time on fantasy.

[AncientMariner]

 

Well, I have been around this country long enough to know that a cult of Hare Krishnas aren't going to change federal law.

 

I go with the flow and adapt to the circumstances.

 

I don't live in LA-LA Land by living in fantasies and wasting my time on a lost cause.

 

Reality is that school prayer is illegal.

Until they change the law I recommend that people obey the law.

 

Hare Krishnas aren't going to change the law.

 

I deal with reality.

 

Somebody else can waste their time on fantasy.

 

 

Nevertheless it appears that Prabhupada recommended that his disciples fight the law that bans school prayer. You don't agree with Prabhupada that is fine but I don't think he was living in la-la land. I tend to agree with him. In fact the way I view things is Prabhupada was about the only sane man on the Earth and everyone else is basically living in la-la land but whatever floats your boat.

[Guruvani]

 

Nevertheless it appears that Prabhupada recommended that his disciples fight the law that bans school prayer. You don't agree with Prabhupada that is fine but I don't think he was living in la-la land. I tend to agree with him.

Fighting the federal government is big task.

Even in the predominantly Christian society most Christians do not even fight for prayer in school.

The Hare Krishnas don't have a chance.

 

I am am American.

I have lived in the country all my life.

Maybe Srila Prabhupada thought that the Hare Krishnas could change federal law, but I am not so optimistic.

 

Only the most fundy of the fundamentalist Christians even think there is a big need for prayer in school.

 

It's just bigotry and fanaticism to try and bring prayer into American schools.

 

I am against it no matter who has recommended it.

I deal with reality not idealism.

 

Somehow, sometime and someway we have to be realists and not idealists.

 

Idealism is a waste of time.

Realism will accomplish a lot more if we just learn to work within the law instead of fighting the federal government.

 

The school prayer movement is for bigots and hypocrites.

 

I don't want anything to do with it.

 

there is no material impediment to Krishna consciuosness.

 

The school prayer movement is a hobgoblin of false religionists.

[AncientMariner]

 

Fighting the federal government is big task.

Even in the predominantly Christian society most Christians do not even fight for prayer in school.

The Hare Krishnas don't have a chance.

 

I am am American.

I have lived in the country all my life.

Maybe Srila Prabhupada thought that the Hare Krishnas could change federal law, but I am not so optimistic.

 

Only the most fundy of the fundamentalist Christians even think there is a big need for prayer in school.

 

It's just bigotry and fanaticism to try and bring prayer into American schools.

 

I am against it no matter who has recommended it.

I deal with reality not idealism.

 

Somehow, sometime and someway we have to be realists and not idealists.

 

Idealism is a waste of time.

Realism will accomplish a lot more if we just learn to work within the law instead of fighting the federal government.

 

The school prayer movement is for bigots and hypocrites.

 

I don't want anything to do with it.

 

there is no material impediment to Krishna consciuosness.

 

The school prayer movement is a hobgoblin of false religionists.

 

 

I agree with you on one thing that the school prayer movement is a hobgoblin of false religionists. There is truth to that, but still banning prayer in school certainly appears to me to not only be unconstitutional but it is a useless Kali-yuga law. Your right that Hare Krishna's are probably not going to change it but nevertheless I find it interesting that Prabhupada recommended that his disciples fight the ban on school prayer but there are still Prabhupada disciples that advocate a ban on school prayer.

[Guruvani]

 

I agree with you on one thing that the school prayer movement is a hobgoblin of false religionists. There is truth to that, but still banning prayer in school certainly appears to me to not only be unconstitutional but it is a useless Kali-yuga law. Your right that Hare Krishna's are probably not going to change it but nevertheless I find it interesting that Prabhupada recommended that his disciples fight the ban on school prayer but there are still Prabhupada disciples that advocate a ban on school prayer.

Srila Prabhuapda wanted and arranged for ISKCON to have it's own schools.

 

I don't buy the argument that we was concerned about prayer in public schools.

 

Unlike a lot of cultists, I am an ex-military person who has also worked for government entities and I don't believe that there is some monster controlling things and stopping school prayer.

 

The people of American government are just ordinary working people with families and they want to do the best they can within the framework of the American constitution.

 

I am not a conspiracy nutjob that thinks the government is full of rakshasas out to destroy religion.

 

I will leave the conspiracy paranoia to somebody else.

I don't buy into all that psychotic illusion.

[AncientMariner]

"I don't buy the argument that he was concerned about prayer in public schools."

 

 

Nevertheless Prabhupada apparently did address the subject and his recommendation appears to be that his disciples would change the law.

[AncientMariner]

Do you think Prabhupada was a paranoid conspiracy theorist nutjob when he said the following?

 

Srila Prabhupada: So now the children cannot have a prayer in their schools. These government men are mostly lawyers, cheaters. Like Nixon. What is the situation now?

Student: Well, he couldn't get any less popular; so now he's getting more popular. People forget.

Srila Prabhupada: People have become cheaters, and that is why they elect such cheaters as their representatives. You Americans can make all the propaganda you want, but you will not be happy without offering prayer to God.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Nevertheless Prabhupada apparently did address the subject and his recommendation appears to be that his disciples would change the law.

 

it was a passing comment in a conversation that never came up again.

 

Jeez.... you guys make it sound like Srila Prabhupada was on a crusade to make school prayer legal.

He wasn't.

 

One comment in a conversation does not a crusade make.

 

I haven't read one word about school prayer in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I depend on shastra not conversations and passing comments Srila Prabhupada made on the spur-of-the-moment.

 

School prayer was not a serious issue that Srila Prabhupada ever really pushed.

 

He wanted ISKCON to have it's own schools.

 

I don't believe he really gave a damn about what public schools do.

 

He wasn't a fool.

He wanted ISKCON to have it's own schools.