The Buddhist

[Guruvani]

 

Do you think Prabhupada was a paranoid conspiracy theorist nutjob when he said the following?

 

Srila Prabhupada: So now the children cannot have a prayer in their schools. These government men are mostly lawyers, cheaters. Like Nixon. What is the situation now?

Student: Well, he couldn't get any less popular; so now he's getting more popular. People forget.

Srila Prabhupada: People have become cheaters, and that is why they elect such cheaters as their representatives. You Americans can make all the propaganda you want, but you will not be happy without offering prayer to God.

 

Any child can pray silently and nobody can stop them.

 

The school prayer movement believes in a boogeyman that doesn't exist.

 

Somebody was feeding Prabhupada some fundy fanaticism.

Any kid can pray in school.

 

He just doesn't have to make a public spectacle out of it.

 

Prayer shouldn't be a public spectacle anyway.

 

Prayer is between us and God.

 

We don't need to make a spectacle out of it.

 

It is a lie that kids can't pray in school.

 

Kids pray in school all the time.

They just don't make a spectacle out of it.

[AncientMariner]

 

it was a passing comment in a conversation that never came up again.

 

Jeez.... you guys make it sound like Srila Prabhupada was on a crusade to make school prayer legal.

He wasn't.

 

One comment in a conversation does not a crusade make.

 

I haven't read one word about school prayer in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I depend on shastra not conversations and passing comments Srila Prabhupada made on the spur-of-the-moment.

 

School prayer was not a serious issue that Srila Prabhupada ever really pushed.

 

He wanted ISKCON to have it's own schools.

 

I don't believe he really gave a damn about what public schools do.

 

He wasn't a fool.

He wanted ISKCON to have it's own schools.

 

 

Yeah I guess you are right. When someone was asking him questions Prabhupada just gave them meaningless spur of the moment answers. He didn't mean anything at all by them. He was just jerking their chain. You win.

[Guruvani]

 

Yeah I guess you are right. When someone was asking him questions Prabhupada just gave them meaningless spur of the moment answers. He didn't mean anything at all by them. He was just jerking their chain. You win.

Well I have had two kids go through public school and still have a child in public school and to tell you the truth I could care less if school prayer is legal or not.

 

There is plenty of time to pray before school and after school.

 

Praying in school is for fanatic bigots.

 

I prefer not to join their club.

 

Any devotee child can remember Krishna or chant silently and nobody even has to know.

 

The school prayer movement is about legalizing the public spectacle of prayer and I don't see any big need to legalize the spectacle.

 

God hears silents prayers to.

 

Nobody has to impose upon others to pray to God.

[AncientMariner]

 

Well I have had two kids go through public school and still have a child in public school and to tell you the truth I could care less if school prayer is legal or not.

 

There is plenty of time to pray before school and after school.

 

Praying is school is for fanatic bigots.

 

I prefer not to join their club.

 

Any devotee child can remember Krishna or chant silently and nobody even has to know.

 

The school prayer movement is about legalizing the public spectacle of prayer and I don't see any big need to legalize the spectacle.

 

God hears silents prayers to.

 

Nobody has to impose upon others to pray to God.

 

 

You have won me over. Congratulations. It was fun talking to you. Have a nice day.

[passionate_freak]

Well,

honestly I haven't gone through anything here.

Buddhists have rela Tantra with themselves than of Hindus though they got it from Sanatana or the Vedic cultures. But it doesn't mean all the buddhists are that much. Tantra in reality is a way to the enlightenment unlike to present practice. Heard of Avatari Lamas???

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Yeah. I think the bottom line here is: this the the wrong place to come if you want any reasonable, heart-felt discussion about Buddhism.

 

The above madness is the second time this thread has gone way off course (even farther than threads here tend to go).

 

How about a fast from prajalpa/gossip for Janmastami? Eh?

 

 

Well,

honestly I haven't gone through anything here.

Buddhists have rela Tantra with themselves than of Hindus though they got it from Sanatana or the Vedic cultures. But it doesn't mean all the buddhists are that much. Tantra in reality is a way to the enlightenment unlike to present practice. Heard of Avatari Lamas???

[Guruvani]

 

Thanks Guruvani! Those are excellent quotations - that's what I was looking for

 

 

 

So, we have pretty much presented the essential points regarding how Buddhism is veiwed by Mahaprabhu and the Gaudiya ACHARYAS.

 

Mahaprabhu rejected the Buddhist philosophy and defeated the Buddhists with argument.

His legacy is continued by all the acharyas in the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

So, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas are not sentimental about Buddhism or the Buddhists.

Buddhism is spiritually defunct.

 

The tradition of the Gaudiyas is to defeat Buddhists with Vedic knowledge.

The Vaishnavas aren't interested in having any kind of love-in with Buddhists.

 

Buddhists are seriously misguided and in total illusion.

They have no genuine spiritual knowledge.

They are spiritually bankrupt.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Just like you view the GBC, eh?

 

 

Buddhists are seriously misguided and in total illusion.

They have no genuine spiritual knowledge.

They are spiritually bankrupt.

[Guruvani]

 

Just like you view the GBC, eh?

The views I presented in regards to Buddhism aren't my personal views, rather the views toward Buddhism as presented by Mahaprabhu and his followers.

 

I presented shastric reference from the books of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta.

So, the views are not of my making.

I just try to accept what the acharya has given.

 

I personally have no grudge or no gripe with Buddhists.

 

The GBC?

 

There are thousands of devotees who think the GBC is defunct, so I am not alone in that view either.

 

As Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said "I pass urine on your GBC".

 

(I think he was referring to the Gaudiya Matha GBC, but maybe the ISKCON GBC too)

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Well, I just went back and re-read your quoted purport.

 

What struck me was the last bit about "mercy" (compassion). The Buddhist doctrine about compassion has always struck me as being a bit arrogant for the same reasons that Srila Prabhupada gives. In order to be compassionate, one must feel superior, right?

 

Still, while Srila Prabhupada is using logic in his purport, there *are* some major assumptions which, if not granted, undermine the logic of the presentation. Without going into detail, almost no rational person would grant that everything in this world is created.

 

Also, while Srila Prabhupada says that his followers ought to be *prepared* to defeat Buddhist logic with their own logic, nowhere does he say that Buddhists ought to be beaten over the head with Vaishnava logic whenever the name of Lord Buddha is mentioned.

 

Rather, isn't it the duty of the preacher to ascertain what the best approach is for any given seeker?

 

I've met many Buddhists here in Santa Cruz. More than one has apologized with something like "I ought to know more about it...".

 

Many Buddhists do *not* take the rational, logical approach to their faith (same with Christians, Gaudiya Vaishnavas, or what have you). For many of them, it is a spiritual discipline which they can engage in without needing to accept a concept of God. Yes, there are folks who are not *yet* at the stage of shanta rasa (neutral acceptance of God).

 

That is why the Lord, *IN HIS MERCY*, has provided this Buddhist path so that they too may live a life of regulation and discipline.

 

No doubt, many Buddhists have later "progressed" (if that's how you prefer to see it) to Vaishnavism. No doubt, it was not due to being logically-beaten by some pompous person.

 

 

The views I presented in regards to Buddhism aren't my personal views, rather the views toward Buddhism as presented by Mahaprabhu and his followers.

 

I presented shastric reference from the books of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta.

So, the views are not of my making.

I just try to accept what the acharya has given.

 

I personally have no grudge or no gripe with Buddhists.

 

The GBC?

 

There are thousands of devotees who think the GBC is defunct, so I am not alone in that view either.

 

As Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said "I pass urine on your GBC".

 

(I think he was referring to the Gaudiya Matha GBC, but maybe the ISKCON GBC too)

[AncientMariner]

"The above madness is the second time this thread has gone way off course (even farther than threads here tend to go)"

 

I apologize for participating in taking the thread way off course. Somewhere there was some mention that the acaryas or something did not have a mambi-pambi approach to atheism then somehow the issue of school prayer came up and things really snowballed out of control. I'll try to remember the original subject of the thread more often when commenting on the comments of others.

[theist]

 

"The above madness is the second time this thread has gone way off course (even farther than threads here tend to go)"

 

I apologize for participating in taking the thread way off course. Somewhere there was some mention that the acaryas or something did not have a mambi-pambi approach to atheism then somehow the issue of school prayer came up and things really snowballed out of control. I'll try to remember the original subject of the thread more often when commenting on the comments of others.

It happens with almost every thread. One statement leads to another and it just changes course. The conclusive answer to Mohankrishna's question was provided by Guruvani and as that was assimilated the thread could have been considered done and new one on school prayer started. But what doesn't show up is a football reference provided by Murali and my sunsequent reply about the Lord being a one time 49er fan. The moderators sent those posts to the void er... should I say pradhana.

 

Thanks to passionate freak for bring us back on track.

 

Yes Vaisnava's are at war with Buddhism. But in this war there is no place for displays of anger and self righteous attacks. This type of warfare necessitates love, respect for all others with differing philosophies as well as understanding siddhanta corretly. Defeating the opponent means making a friend of a one time adversary and not stepping on the chest of his body fallen in debate.

 

In one purport Srila Prabhupada wrote to the effect that Vaisnava's are happy to see others take to Lord Buddha but wondered if they would stop killing innocent animals or not and providing some meaning to accepting Budhhism. So we can request the Buddhists when we meet them and have such disccusions to please widen their practice of ahimsa by stopping all animal slaughter for food consumption.

 

Only one out of a billion trillion Buddhists will remain on the path until slipping into pradhana anyway. The desire for sense gratification is too strong. Whereas developing some pious karma by ahimsa can only help anyone progress.

 

Ultimately of course the theist sees Buddhism as a highly intellectual and developed suicide cult when carried to conclusion. So talking to a Buddhist can be seen like talking a person threatening to off jump off a bridge to come down safely. That is accomplished by first building raporrt with the person and giving them a reason to stick with life.

 

Perhaps less words and more love and warmth would be effective when dealing with others of differing faiths and beliefs?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

"The above madness is the second time this thread has gone way off course (even farther than threads here tend to go)"

 

I apologize for participating in taking the thread way off course. Somewhere there was some mention that the acaryas or something did not have a mambi-pambi approach to atheism then somehow the issue of school prayer came up and things really snowballed out of control. I'll try to remember the original subject of the thread more often when commenting on the comments of others.

 

Oh, I'm not complaining about *you* in the least!!

 

Maybe you missed it (thank the moderators if you did), but the first diversion ended up in a bunch of school-yard chest-beating. The school-prayer discussion was actually interesting (though I resisted chiming in with my own 2 cents on it).

[Guruvani]

Most "Buddhists" don't even have a clue what Buddhism actually teaches or how many different schools of Buddhism there are or that Buddhism originally started in India.

 

Most "buddhists" in American today are yuppies that feel all warm and fuzzy about being a Buddhist peace-nik.

 

They really don't have a clue what the real buddhist history or teachings actually are.

 

Mainly, they like it because it is supposed to be about peace and non-violence even though many of the the buddhists masters are carnivores deeply attached to the eating of flesh of animals.

 

At least the Jews require that the animal is killed without unnecessary pain.

These nutjob buddhists don't give a damn how much suffering the animal they are eating has gone through to make it to their plate.

 

I think the Jews are way beyond the Buddhists,

 

Modern buddhists are about equivalent to modern Christians in the level of bigotry and hypocrisy they practice.

 

The Jews are way beyond all of them.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Mazel Tov!!

Om Shalom!

 

Nobody has a monopoly on hypocrisy.

 

 

Most "Buddhists" don't even have a clue what Buddhism actually teaches or how many different schools of Buddhism there are or that Buddhism originally started in India.

 

Most "buddhists" in American today are yuppies that feel all warm and fuzzy about being a Buddhist peace-nik.

 

They really don't have a clue what the real buddhist history or teachings actually are.

 

Mainly, they like it because it is supposed to be about peace and non-violence even though many of the the buddhists masters are carnivores deeply attached to the eating of flesh of animals.

 

At least the Jews require that the animal is killed without unnecessary pain.

These nutjob buddhists don't give a damn how much suffering the animal they are eating has gone through to make it to their plate.

 

I think the Jews are way beyond the Buddhists,

 

Modern buddhists are about equivalent to modern Christians in the level of bigotry and hypocrisy they practice.

 

The Jews are way beyond all of them.

[Guruvani]

 

Mazel Tov!!

Om Shalom!

 

Nobody has a monopoly on hypocrisy.

 

Maybe not, but I am working on trying to get a patent on it.

[Guruvani]

Lord Buddha incarnated for the purpose of bewildering those who are envious of the theists.

So, "buddhists" are such people.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.24

 

tataḥ kalau sampravṛtte

sammohāya sura-dviṣām

buddho nāmnāñjana-sutaḥ

kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati

 

SYNONYMS

tataḥ — thereafter; kalau — the age of Kali; sampravṛtte — having ensued; sammohāya — for the purpose of deluding; sura — the theists; dviṣām — those who are envious; buddhaḥ — Lord Buddha; nāmnā — of the name; añjana-sutaḥ — whose mother was Añjanā; kīkaṭeṣu — in the province of Gayā (Bihar); bhaviṣyati — will take place.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.

 

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.24 purport,

 

 

Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order to save people from the vice of animal-killing as well as to save the poor animals from the slaughtering process of their big brothers who clamor for universal brotherhood, peace, justice and equity. There is no justice when there is animal-killing. Lord Buddha wanted to stop it completely, and therefore his cult of ahiḿsā was propagated not only in India but also outside the country.Technically Lord Buddha's philosophy is called atheistic because there is no acceptance of the Supreme Lord and because that system of philosophy denied the authority of the Vedas. But that is an act of camouflage by the Lord. Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Godhead. As such, he is the original propounder of Vedic knowledge. He therefore cannot reject Vedic philosophy. But he rejected it outwardly because the sura-dviṣa, or the demons who are always envious of the devotees of Godhead, try to support cow-killing or animal-killing from the pages of the Vedas, and this is now being done by the modernized sannyāsīs. Lord Buddha had to reject the authority of the Vedas altogether. This is simply technical, and had it not been so he would not have been so accepted as the incarnation of Godhead. Nor would he have been worshiped in the transcendental songs of the poet Jayadeva, who is a Vaiṣṇava ācārya. Lord Buddha preached the preliminary principles of the Vedas in a manner suitable for the time being (and so also did Śańkarācārya) to establish the authority of the Vedas. Therefore both Lord Buddha and Ācārya Śańkara paved the path of theism, and Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, specifically Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, led the people on the path towards a realization of going back to Godhead.

We are glad that people are taking interest in the nonviolent movement of Lord Buddha.

 

 

 

But will they take the matter very seriously and close the animal slaughterhouses altogether? If not, there is no meaning to the ahiḿsā cult.

 

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

We are glad that people are taking interest in the nonviolent movement of Lord Buddha.

I find it quite interesting that Srila Prabhupada said he was glad that people were taking to the ahimsa cult of Buddhism.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that ahimsa is becoming divorced from the Buddhist cult and meat eating is becoming acceptable.

 

Srila Prabhupada felt that if Buddhists don't practice ahimsa - the non-violence to animals and vegetarianism that there is no meaning to Buddhism.

 

Buddhism was built off of non-violence to animals.

If Buddhists eat meat then they are bogus Buddhists.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What about aspiring Vaishnavas who can't quite follow all the regulative principles perfectly? Is their/our Vaishnavism meaningless?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

I find it quite interesting that Srila Prabhupada said he was glad that people were taking to the ahimsa cult of Buddhism.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that ahimsa is becoming divorced from the Buddhist cult and meat eating is becoming acceptable.

 

Srila Prabhupada felt that if Buddhists don't practice ahimsa - the non-violence to animals and vegetarianism that there is no meaning to Buddhism.

 

Buddhism was built off of non-violence to animals.

If Buddhists eat meat then they are bogus Buddhists.

[krishnadasa]

 

Lord Buddha's (9th incarnation of Sri Vishnu) trick was to implement the worship of Him besides His teaching of voidism to a less intelligent audience.

Thus people who would meditate upon Lord Buddha would make further advancement and finally come to realize that Lord Buddha is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, although these folks wouldnt really be able to articulate.

 

Yes devaki nandan is famous for his trickery:) 3

 

hari bol