Where Does Evil Originate?

[suchandra]

Today it read in the newspapers, "Pope Benedict XVI Warmly Greets Exorcist Convention - It goes on to denounce Satan as “Prince of the World” and “Enemy of Human Salvation.” It ends: “Go back, Satan.”

A Vatican university announced last Thursday that for the second year running it will hold a course on exorcism and Satanism for Roman Catholic priests. ... The four-month course, which begins in October."

 

In other words, for quite some millions of people the evil of this world originates in Satan. But what do the Vedas say?

 

When for example examining the cause of the kurukshetra war, where 64,000,000 people were killed within 18 days, Krishna did not say anything that Satan has to be expelled, but instead, Krishna told Arjuna to give up non-violence and fight to re-establish religous principle.

 

Prabhupada: And the battle was finished within eighteen days, not lingering for some years. No. Fight to the best capacity and finish the business.

 

Somebody was criticizing me that “Swamiji, you are introducing this Hare Krishna movement. People are becoming coward. They simply chant Hare Krishna.” So I replied that “You will see the power of Hare Krishna movement in due course of time.” There were two battles in India: the battle between Ravana and Rama, Rama-Ravana, the battle of Ramayana; and another battle was Battle of Kuruksetra. And in these two battles the hero was Vaishnava and Vishnu. In the Rama-Ravana battle Lord Ramacandra was there and His devotee Hanuman, Vajrangaji. Similarly, in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, Krishna was there and His devotee Arjuna was there. So Vaishnavas, they do not simply chant Hare Krishna. If there is need, they can fight under the guidance of Vishnu and become victorious. A Vaishnava’s one qualification is… Out of the twenty-six qualifications, one qualification is daksa, expert. If there is need of fighting, they can fight like very expert. That is also needed. Krishna consciousness does not mean one-sided. Krishna as all-pervading, the Krishna consciousness movement also should be all-pervading. It should touch everything, even politics, sociology, everything, if required. That is the aim. Because Krishna’s mission is: yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7], paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [bg. 4.8]. There is two mission: not only to give protection to the devotees, but also to kill the demons. To kill the demons, that is one side. So the devotees of Krishna should be trained up both ways: not only to give protection to the devotees, to give them encouragement, but if need be, they should be prepared to kill the demons. That is Vaishnavism. It is not cowardism. It is not cowardism. When need be. Generally, a Vaishnava is non-violent. Just like Arjuna.

 

 

In the beginning he was non-violent, Vaishnava. He said, “Krishna, what is the use of this fighting? Let them enjoy.” So by nature he was non-violent, but he was induced by Krishna to become violent, that “Your non-violence will not help. You become violent. You kill them. I want.” So if Krishna wants we shall be prepared to become violent also. And Krishna, that is open secret, that paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [bg. 4.8]. Two business of Krishna, two side. So those who are devotees of Krishna, they should be trained up both ways, they should be prepared. But generally, there is no question of becoming violent, unnecessarily. As the modern politicians, unnecessarily they declare war, a Vaishnava does not do so. No, unnecessarily, there is no need of war. When it was completely impossible to settle up the things between the Pandavas and the Kauravas, then Krishna said, “All right, then there must be fight.” When Duryodhana declined to spare even a portion of land holding the sucyagra, the point of a needle… he refused that “I cannot spare even so much land which can hold the point of a needle.”

Then the war was declared. There is no question of settlement. Otherwise, Krishna requested that “These five Pandavas, they are ksatriyas. They cannot become merchant or brahmana. Brahmana’s profession is that he can take charity from others. A sannyasi can take charity from others. Not a ksatriya or a grhastha. No. That is not allowed.

“So they are ksatriyas; they cannot take the professions of a brahmana, neither they can take the profession of a mercantile man, business man. They must have some land so that rule over, take taxation. And that is their living means.

So spare only five villages to these five brothers and settle up.”

But Duryodhana replied, “No, Sir. What to speak of five villages, we cannot spare even so much land which can hold the point of needle.” Then the war was declared. So Vaishnava, they are non-violent. But if need be, they can become violent for Krishna’s sake.

(ACBSP - London, July 11, 1973)

[Guruvani]

Evil originates in the tatastha when the jiva makes the wrong choice and chooses to be the enjoyer of maya rather than the servant of Narayana.

 

But, due to the fact that marginal jivas are insufficienty blessed with hladini shakti - chit and ananda they are very prone to make the wrong choice due to a lack of knowledge.

 

When the conditioned jivas as blessed with biss and knowledge then they can easily cross beyond illusion and attain the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha.

 

We are still in that marginal position with the ability to turn from maya to the service of Krishna.

As such, evil originates in the refusal to surrender to Krishna.

[mahak]

Serving maya is not evil, it is service of krsna in illusion.

 

Evil is consciousness. Being asleep is unconsciousness.

 

IMO, and ill quote myself profusely on this one:eek: :eek: (I like that face), evil is attacking the innocent because they are innocent. To vilify the vaisnava is evil. To overpower another unfairly is evil. Even mundane law notes crimes without victim, and these are of lesser quality. Terrorism is evil, yet warfare may be allowed if justified and considered religious activity (a real and bogus stretch in the case of kali yuga warfare, which is all evil.)

 

Smokin dope, eatin hot dogs, having a girlfriend, these things are not evil. Unconscious behavior, certainly, but if all lumped in, then "evil" has no meaning.

 

Haribol, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

Evil

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

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<!-- start content --> For other uses, see Evil (disambiguation).

In religion, evil refers to anything against the will or law of the god(s). In ethics, evil refers to violations of an empathetic ideal which manifests as morally or ethically objectionable thought, speech, or action; behavior or thought which is hateful, cruel, violent, or devoid of conscience. Evil is sometimes defined as the opposite of good, or anything that opposes the force of life, for instance. In most cultures, evil is used to describe acts or thoughts which are contrary to an established religion, or which could bring about suffering and death — the opposite of good. To most religious believers evil consists of more than a series of individually destructive or hurtful acts, constituting a powerful and mysterious supernatural or metaphysical force that lies behind individual instances of hurt and suffering. Thus they believe certain acts that are not specifically hurtful can bring about suffering simply because they are inherently evil. At the very least most proponents of the term believe that evil is a moral category whose definition is permanently set and not contextual. Critics of the term argue that it is inextricably bound to a particular religious worldview and that it allows believers to ignore the specific or complex causes for social problems in favor of one generalized simplistic cause (evil).<sup class="noprint Template-Fact">[citation needed]</sup>

[theist]

 

Today it read in the newspapers, "Pope Benedict XVI Warmly Greets Exorcist Convention - It goes on to denounce Satan as “Prince of the World” and “Enemy of Human Salvation.” It ends: “Go back, Satan.”

A Vatican university announced last Thursday that for the second year running it will hold a course on exorcism and Satanism for Roman Catholic priests. ... The four-month course, which begins in October."

 

In other words, for quite some millions of people the evil of this world originates in Satan. But what do the Vedas say?

 

When for example examining the cause of the kurukshetra war, where 64,000,000 people were killed within 18 days, Krishna did not say anything that Satan has to be expelled, but instead, Krishna told Arjuna to give up non-violence and fight to re-establish religous principle.

 

I will quibble a bit with your example of the Pope and the Catholic exorcism. I believe vedic brahmanas had their rites also for casting out malevolent invaders of human minds and bodies.

 

There is a statement in the Bible, " The weapons of our warfare are not carnal." The brahmana or priest also has his tools of war and battlegrounds on which the war is conducted and this is not the same as that employed by the Kysatriyas. Actually it is more subtle.

 

I appreciate the talk Srila Prabhupada (blessed be his appearance) gave concerning Vaisnava's not being irrevocably tied to nonviolence. Devotees often try and superimpose their ideas of pacifism onto the Vaisnava and Vishnu. It is as if they never read the Bhagavad-gita even once.

 

Krsna consciousness means to act under the direction of Krsna even if that is not the devotees personal desire. From Arjuna's, "Govinda I shall not fight." [to]"I am now a soul surrender to You. Please instruct me."

 

And Lord Jesus's prayers at Gethsemane before the crucifixion, "Let this cup pass from me...." [to] "Not my will but Thy will be done."

 

Exact same example of surrendered wills to the Supreme Will.

 

In one very real sense the war is within but at the same time it is coducted externally also. This dual meaning of the conflict is obvious in the Bhagavad-gita.

[theist]

Guruvani's approach is to first define evil and I agree. It is hard to discuss something without a clear understanding of the term. The Wikipedia quote is enlightening in this regard.

[theist]

 

When for example examining the cause of the kurukshetra war, where 64,000,000 people were killed within 18 days, Krishna did not say anything that Satan has to be expelled, but instead, Krishna told Arjuna to give up non-violence and fight to re-establish religous principle.

 

Well I don't think this example matches up well against the priestly exorcism, as I said different battlefields.

But then again it does in that Arjuna described the mind of Duryodhana as evil and wanted to see those that stood with him ready to please him and Krsna told Arjuna to dispell them all.

 

The only difference is Duryodhona was embodied and not a ghost.

[clown hidden]

Good and evil are only creations of the human mind. When you see that human beings aren't much more than bugs crawling around eating each other you won't be so impressed by their ideas. Where does evil originate? In your own mind.

[Guruvani]

In this verse of Bhagavad Gita, Srila Prabhupada shows that EVIL is in fact what is known in Vedic terms as asat or that which is temporary.

 

Evil is the temporary happiness we get in contact with sense objects devoid of service to Krishna.

 

So, evil is the illusion that sense pleasure is real happiness.

Evil is the idea that we can be happy without Krishna.

 

 

<center>Chapter 13. Nature, the Enjoyer, and Consciousness</center>

 

TEXT 22

 

 

purusah prakrti-stho hi

bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan

karanam guna-sango 'sya

sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species.

[suchandra]

 

Good and evil are only creations of the human mind. When you see that human beings aren't much more than bugs crawling around eating each other you won't be so impressed by their ideas. Where does evil originate? In your own mind.

It seems there's something personified which is called, Maya devi, and as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja points out in his purport, below, "Even in casting His glance He has no contact with the deluding energy because the spiritual (cit) potency Rama then carries the function of His glance as His unpolluted ever-submissive potency."

In other words, Maya devi is something like opposed to Krishna, something like Satan is described, who tries to keep us away from surrendering to Krishna.

 

TEXT 7

 

mayayaramamanasya

na viyogas taya saha

atmana ramaya reme

tyakta-kalam sisrksaya

 

Krishna never consorts with His illusory energy. Still her connection is not entirely cut off from the Absolute Truth. When He intends to create the material world the amorous pastime, in which He engages by consorting with His own spiritual [cit] potency Rama by casting His glance at the deluding energy in the shape of sending His time energy, is an auxiliary activity.

 

PURPORT by His Divine Grace Srila Bjaktisiddhanta Maharaja

 

Mayadevi and Buddha's birth

 

The illusory energy has no direct contact with Krishna, but has got indirect contact. Vishnu the prime cause, lying in the Causal Ocean, the plenary portion of Maha-Sankarsana who has His scat in Maha-Vaikuntha the sphere of Krishna’s own extended transcendental pastimes, casts His glance towards the deluding energy. Even in casting His glance He has no contact with the deluding energy because the spiritual (cit) potency Rama then carries the function of His glance as His unpolluted ever-submissive potency. The deluding energy as the maidservant of the spiritual (cit) potency Rama, serves the manifested plenary portion of Godhead consorted with Rama, the time energy representing the force of activity and instrumentality of Rama; hence there is found the process of masculinity or the creative force.

 

Bs5.8

[clown hidden]

Though you may associate Maya Devi with evil, I would not. Of course at root of much of evil is the false ego which is related to Maya, but it the mind and actions that are evil not Maya Devi who is serving the Lord by arranging the material energy to fufill the perverted desires of the conditioned soul.

[gHari]

These evil desires all come from eons of past lives in millions of different species. Together they form our gestalt, our ahankara, our burden on this world. What is normal for a tiger is not normal for a human. And in today's Western world what is normal for a human is not normal for a spirit soul.

 

So what serpent tempts us to leave the shelter of the spirit soul to fall prey to the ahankara desires of the lower world? Leave the apple on the tree for when we contemplate the objects of the senses we start the apple rolling.

[suchandra]

 

These evil desires all come from eons of past lives in millions of different species. Together they form our gestalt, our ahankara, our burden on this world. What is normal for a tiger is not normal for a human. And in today's Western world what is normal for a human is not normal for a spirit soul.

 

So what serpent tempts us to leave the shelter of the spirit soul to fall prey to the ahankara desires of the lower world? Leave the apple on the tree for when we contemplate the objects of the senses we start the apple rolling.

 

Mayadevi came to test Haridas Thakur's determination for three days. So, yes, we start the apple rolling, but Mayadevi makes the whole view irresistible attractive unless we become real Vaishnavas. People were very kind to Haridas Thakur, giving him food and tried to serve him in every respect. He went to Shantipur, to Advaita Acarya’s home. But in the cave where Haridas Thakur was living, Mayadevi came to test him and took Harinam from him. Mayadevi tested him for three nights and wanted to make an illusion, but Haridas Thakur could not be polluted by illusion. Then Mayadevi took shelter and said, “Lord Siva gave me Rama Nama. Please, you give me Krishna Nama.”

[Guruvani]

Krishna Book ch.6

 

 

Mother Yasoda was firmly convinced that she should protect her child from different kinds of evil spirits and ghosts--namely Dakinis, Yatudhanis, Kusmandas, Yaksas, Raksasas, Vinayakas, Kotara, Revati, Jyesthas, Putanas, Matrkas, Unmadas and similar other evil spirits, who cause persons to forget their own existence and give trouble to the life airs and the senses. Sometimes they appear in dreams and cause much perturbation; sometimes they appear as old women and suck the blood of small children. But all such ghosts and evil spirits cannot remain where there is chanting of the holy name of God.

 

There are evil spirits in this world.

[Guruvani]

Krishna Book ch. 7

 

 

Yasoda picked the child up on her lap and called the learned brahmanas to chant holy Vedic hymns to counteract the evil spirits.

[clown hidden]

All of these demons and evil spirits have their history which brought them to that state, and the greater majority of the ones in Krishna Lila become liberated from their contact. It is the deluded mind and the unhealthy activities that make one act and assume the form of demons and evil spirits. They can rise from that and the pious can fall to that based on conciousness or lack of it. There is no evil really, just the absolute harmony of the complete whole and the inability of the deluded mind to see that.

[suchandra]

 

Krishna Book ch. 7

Another thing is, although the Bible doesnt teach immortality of soul, suddenly, Lucifer who was once an angel in God's Kingdom, becomes the eternal Satan?

 

 

 

 

Lucifer became terribly frustrated in God's Kingdom and out of protest left to become Lucifer or Satan?

 

 

[sanatan]

This question is the reason I brought up the example of Srila Madhvacarya awhile back.

 

To my knowledge there's no baseline, absolute reason for the existence of evil expressed in the body of Vedic literature that is comparable to what is given in the Bible, with its tales of Lucifer's fall from heaven and the Fall of Man.

 

Madhvacarya's concept of an eternally-existing tripartite division of souls has appeared to scholars, and appears to me as well, to be an attempt to logically/philosophically reconcile this lack in the Vedic tradition.

 

There's speculation that his ideas borrowed on what he heard from Christian missionaries.

 

My limited brain can't wrap itself around the idea that a living entity of originally-pure consciousness can descend to the depths of the terrifyingly-demoniac personalities that are commonly seen in relatively recent (past 2,000 years) history, and in the present era, and then make a real, Back-to-Godhead spiritual turnaround at some point.

[theist]

 

Another thing is, although the Bible doesnt teach immortality of soul, suddenly, Lucifer who was once an angel in God's Kingdom, becomes the eternal Satan?

 

 

 

 

Lucifer became terribly frustrated in God's Kingdom and out of protest left to become Lucifer or Satan?

 

 

 

 

I can identify with Lucifer here. "Everybody likes Krsna more than me.Boo hoo. I want to be the central enjoyer for a change."

 

I am sure I had a similar pouty look on my face. Oh I forgot. This story is a metaphor for the souls descending into the Mahat-tattva. It is me.

[clown hidden]

Evil is an existential reality. Evil is seeking pleasure by inflicting pain on others. Evil is a uniquely human passion. A lion killing its prey is not considered evil. A person in

authority causing pain to those in their care is indeed evil. Hitler who gassed 6 million Jews is considered the

epitome of evil. Who created evil? What is the source of evil? God the all-compassionate couldn't be the source

of evil. The source of evil has to be sought in the ignorance veiling human mind. It is the unhappy human,

alienated from his/her spirit, who indulges in the wanton acts of evil. Wherever it appears evil has to be resisted

by good people. Evil should not be confused with a stand point. Neither personal agendas nor evil means are to

be adopted in the name of resisting evil. He alone who sees Divinity in everybody has the moral authority and

stature to oppose evil.

- From the description of a video of Swami Bodhananda Saraswati of the Sambodha Society

[Murali_Mohan_das]

In brief, evil stems from the illusion of separate interest.

 

When we see the "other" as other rather than as part of the same whole of which we are part, we can justify to ourselves our exploitative actions.

 

 

Evil is an existential reality. Evil is seeking pleasure by inflicting pain on others. Evil is a uniquely human passion. A lion killing its prey is not considered evil. A person in

authority causing pain to those in their care is indeed evil. Hitler who gassed 6 million Jews is considered the

epitome of evil. Who created evil? What is the source of evil? God the all-compassionate couldn't be the source

of evil. The source of evil has to be sought in the ignorance veiling human mind. It is the unhappy human,

alienated from his/her spirit, who indulges in the wanton acts of evil. Wherever it appears evil has to be resisted

by good people. Evil should not be confused with a stand point. Neither personal agendas nor evil means are to

be adopted in the name of resisting evil. He alone who sees Divinity in everybody has the moral authority and

stature to oppose evil.

- From the description of a video of Swami Bodhananda Saraswati of the Sambodha Society

[mahak]

Okay, we see evil, we get influenced by evil, but this is just us, not real, not permanent, zero.

 

There is goodness, passion, and ignorance. Nothing about evil. Just like those who consider a beautiful form of a female to be maya devi, there is nothing that can be traced to another the fact that in this world, we fit into these three catagories, perhaps blended all together. It is not the female form that is maya, maya is the lust in the heart of the individual. The pure damsels playing naked in the pool recognize this, they cover themselves as vyasadeva passes, but make no aqttempt to cover themselves when Sukadeva Goswami passes, because they recognize maya, and it has nothing to do with their pure forms.

 

Our conception of evil has been decided by the courts. There is no evil in the mode of ignorance, this is animal consciousness or unconsciousness. No active reswponsibility for being in the mode of ignorance, no planning, no envy, no vengence. All our false ideas of evil spring from the mode of passion. The desire to lord it over others. This is the same sin, the same evil, regardless of what shape it takes, from a brutal puffed up superviosr at work, the sadistic teacher who should never have contact with children, not paid $50,000 a year to administer rutilin and then isolate the children as the problem(for this type of teacher, see the Wall, by pink floyd, who admit "in town it is well known, at night, their fat psychopathic wives will thrash em to within inches of their lives", what a song, what a group, alas, I again digress), to the agreessive banker who loves foreclosing, to the sadist who loves killing little furry things, to the rapist who will never know reciprocal love. "It is lust only, Arjuna...."

 

The mode of passion is where evil springs from. and it is up close and personal. In other words, the false christians plea of "the devil made me do it" is not accepted in the court of My Lord Yamaraja. Passion is OUR possession, no one elses, and when we recognize the picture of evil is not a renaissnace painting of some naga or reptilian, not an overgrown chupacabra, not a haunting spectre of dream world. The picture of pure evil is what stares at you while ya try to shave the fuzz off your face. I digress again, but I feel like quotin something, the guru of Tommy (the rock opera, by the Who) has the miracle cure, and says, "Go to the mirror, boy".

 

Evil originates in the heart of man. Strictly an individual possession, nothing to blame on anyone else. There is nothing new in the news, all the sins are committed now as well as then, and dont hold your breath for the sinless future. Because the mode of passion is here for the duration.

 

Avoidance of evil is at the feet of Lord Krsna, suddha sattwa, pure goodness that cannot be soiled by tama and raja guna, nor sattwa guna for that matter.

 

Evil and goodness are two sides of the same coin, and both only exist in the world of speculative duality. Any religion that teaches of a battle between god and the devil espouse atheism, because there is no battle there, the devil does not compete with god. Before Krsna killed paundraka, he laughed at him. As far as real origination, all the "evils" we face, war, famine, disease, death, these are by-products of the anger of Lord Brahma. He is no longer angry, but the scorpions live on.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

barbies made with leaded paint, this is where evil originates. Slaves in china making barbies.

 

 

 

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

 

 

:eek:walmart:eek:

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

 

 

[clown hidden]

 

barbies made with leaded paint, this is where evil originates. Slaves in china making barbies.

 

I'd place the blame on the corporations not the slaves, they're the ones in charge of using toxic materials in order to maximize profits.

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I agree with you that, since evil stems from illusion, it is itself illusory.

 

Evil is just a trick of perspective--from our limited perspective so many things appear as evil. In the grand scheme of things, all of these evils are nothing.

 

Also, as you say, there are the modes of material nature which are influencing us. There is no Divine Malevolence conspiring to defeat us.

 

 

Okay, we see evil, we get influenced by evil, but this is just us, not real, not permanent, zero.