Constitutional Position of the Soul

[Acyutananda das]

Dear Guruvani pr!

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa. According to the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this extremly concentrated love for Krishna is characterized by mamanta (possessivenes) or madiyatamaya-bhava - the feeling of "You are mine". This is only possible in personal relationship. In the shanta rasa one only have the tadiyatamaya bhava - the feeling of "I'm Yours". So there's no prema in shanta rasa. But the verse speaks about prema. So our original position is a personal relationship (not shanta rasa) with the Lord.

 

ys, Acyutananda das

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Sri Krsna is a person.

 

If a living entity has a relationship with Sri Krsna in the mellow of Santa Rasa, we can speak of the relationship as personal. That (no longer) conditioned living entity is consciously giving his full attention to the person of Sri Krsna with a neutral mood. The spiritual bodily form that Living entity is acting through is not a limiting factor in considering it a personal relationship at that time.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

Dear Guruvani pr!

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa. According to the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this extremly concentrated love for Krishna is characterized by mamanta (possessivenes) or madiyatamaya-bhava - the feeling of "You are mine". This is only possible in personal relationship. In the shanta rasa one only have the tadiyatamaya bhava - the feeling of "I'm Yours". So there's no prema in shanta rasa. But the verse speaks about prema. So our original position is a personal relationship (not shanta rasa) with the Lord.

 

ys, Acyutananda das

You are not substantiating your position with shastra and verse proper.

You are presenting your own summary paraphrase.

 

I don't accept summary paraphrase as actual evidence.

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has stated that shanta-rasa is the basic platform of devotiona service.

 

Shanta-rasa wouldn't "rasa" if there were no love of Godhead in the rasa.

 

That is why it is called "neutral" LOVE OF GODHEAD. (SHANTA-RASA) RASA RASA RASA...... note the word RASA.

 

It is love of Krishna with no particular preference towards any specialty in devotional service.

 

There are many entities in Goloka in shanta-rasa.

[Guruvani]

 

Dear Guruvani pr!

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa. According to the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this extremly concentrated love for Krishna is characterized by mamanta (possessivenes) or madiyatamaya-bhava - the feeling of "You are mine". This is only possible in personal relationship. In the shanta rasa one only have the tadiyatamaya bhava - the feeling of "I'm Yours". So there's no prema in shanta rasa. But the verse speaks about prema. So our original position is a personal relationship (not shanta rasa) with the Lord.

 

ys, Acyutananda das

 

Krishna says that his impersonal form is also murti.

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.4

 

mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

mayā — by Me; tatam — pervaded; idam — this; sarvam — all; jagat — cosmic manifestation; avyakta-mūrtinā — by the unmanifested form; mat-sthāni — in Me; sarva-bhūtāni — all living entities; na — not; ca — also; aham — I; teṣu — in them; avasthitaḥ — situated.

 

 

TRANSLATION

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

 

 

Shanta-rasa is love of the avyakta-murti impersonal form of Krishna.

(avyakta-mūrtinā — by the unmanifested form) FORM!!

 

Ultimately, even Krishna's impersonal form is a form of Krishna.

Krishna is never formless.

 

In shanta-rasa the devotee thinks the impersonal form of Krishna is his!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

in the mellow of Santa Rasa

 

I've heard that Santa Rosa is pretty mellow. Last time I drove through it, though, the traffic was pretty bad (road repairs).

 

There I go again, being nitya-silly (perpetually-perplexed).

[Guruvani]

 

I've heard that Santa Rosa is pretty mellow. Last time I drove through it, though, the traffic was pretty bad (road repairs).

 

There I go again, being nitya-silly (perpetually-perplexed).

 

The four Kumaras were incarnations of Godhead. (I will have to find the quote later, I am busy now) and they were in shanta-rasa before they smelled the Tulasi leaves at the feet of the Lord.

 

This put down of shanta-rasa is blasphemy.

 

Anybody who says shanta-rasa is to be dismissed does not know Bhagavat siddhanta.

 

Shanta-rasa is perfection in neutral love of Godhead.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Amen, brother!!

 

I'm still *aspiring* for shanta-rasa. Currently, I'm mostly filled with hate and anger (much of it directed at myself).

 

 

The four Kumaras were incarnations of Godhead. (I will have to find the quote later, I am busy now) and they were in shanta-rasa before they smelled the Tulasi leaves at the feet of the Lord.

 

This put down of shanta-rasa is blasphemy.

 

Anybody who says shanta-rasa is to be dismissed does not know Bhagavat siddhanta.

 

Shanta-rasa is perfection in neutral love of Godhead.

[theist]

From the Sun

 

 

 

 

Lord Caitanya Preached Pure Devotional Service

BY: NANDANANDANA DAS (ACBSP)

 

Sep 16, ALACHUA, FLORIDA (SUN) —

Kshamabuddhi dasa's recent article, "

Lord Caitanya on the Constitutional Position of the Soul

", is misleading. I don’t know if he is an impersonalist, but that is the idea that he conveys:

 

• “In conclusion, Lord Caitanya does not teach that the constitutional position of the soul is anything more than impersonal realization of Lord Krishna in his impersonal Brahman effulgence.”
  
  

 

That is Kshamabuddhi's own conclusion, that is not what Srila Prabhupada explains, neither what Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja is saying in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, nor the conclusion of the acaryas.

 

His own words are contradictory:

 

• “Lord Caitanya explains to Rupa Goswami that shanta-rasa does not possess even the smallest of intimacy with Lord Krishna and that the impersonal Brahman and the Paramatma are prominent.”
  
  

 

Paramatma realization is not impersonal realization:

 

• “Real yogis meditate upon the transcendental form of the Lord as He stands on the whorl of the lotus of their hearts, the jewellike nails of His lotus feet glittering.” (
  Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.8.50
  )
  
  

 

And there are many other quotes in the sastras in this regard.

 

This constitutional position is explained by Lord Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita (18.54). The brahma-bhuta stage is the realization of

aham bhramasmi

, “I am not this matter, I am spirit soul, I am of the nature of Brahman”. At this stage is when real bhakti begins. The Vaisnava’s realization is that if he is brahman then his nature is to be engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord. To be engaged in activities of the nature of Brahman, not in material activities. This is also the explanation of the famous

tat tvam asi

sutra. The Vaisnava acaryas had explained it to mean, “You are of the same nature of the Supreme therefore your nature is to be engaged in the spiritual activities of devotional service to the Lord.” Or it also means, “You are His”. You belong to the Supreme Lord and therefore you have an eternal relationship of service to Him.

 

• brahma-bhutah prasannatma
  
  
  na socati na kaksati
  
  
  samah sarvesu bhutesu
  
  
  mad-bhaktin labhate param
  “One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.”
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhuta, oneness with the Absolute… This is the brahma-bhuta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one’s individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents’ teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled… Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age. (
  Bhagavad-gita 18.64
  )
  
  

 

Lord Caitanya Himself says:

 

 

• jivera ‘svarupa’ haya--krisnera ‘nitya-dasa’
  “It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna”.
  
  

 

Not the impersonal position! This quality of service to the Lord is the basic ingredient. Next is the further realization:

 

• Gopi-bhartur pada-kamalayor dasa-dasa-dasa-dasanudasa

To serve Sri Krishna who is the Lord of the gopis, always accompany by Srimati Radharani. But one cannot serve Him directly, but rather thru the servant of the servant of the servant of the gopis. Our link to this chain of servants of the Lord is our spiritual master, and we cannot give him up as the Mayavadis do.

This is the progression on this chapter of Sri Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya 19, about shanta rasa and the other mellows:

• “When one is fully attached to Krishna’s lotus feet, one attains the samata stage. The word ‘samata’ is derived from the word ‘sama’; therefore santa-rasa, the position of neutrality, means being fully attached to the lotus feet of Krishna. This is the verdict from the mouth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. This state is called self-realization. (
  Text 211
  )
  
  
  “‘These are the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: “When one’s intelligence is fully attached to My lotus feet but one does not render practical service, one has attained the stage called santa-rati, or sama.” Without santa-rati, attachment to Krishna is very difficult to achieve.’ (
  Text 212
  )
  
  
  “‘The word “sama” or “santa-rasa” indicates that one is attached to the lotus feet of Krishna. “Dama” means controlling the senses and not being deviated from the Lord’s service. Endurance of unhappiness is “titiksa,” and “dhriti” means controlling the tongue and the genitals.’ (
  Text 213
  )
  
  
  “Giving up all desires not connected with Krishna is the business of one who is in santa-rasa. Only a devotee of Krishna can be situated on that platform. He is thus called a santa-rasa-bhakta. (
  Text 214
  )
  
  
  “When a devotee is situated on the platform of santa-rasa, he desires neither elevation to the heavenly planets nor liberation. These are the results of karma and jñana, and the devotee considers them no better than hell. A person situated on the santa-rasa platform manifests the two transcendental qualities of detachment from all material desires and full attachment to Krishna. (
  Text 215
  )
  
  
  These are the two qualities of shanta rasa present in all the other mellows as Srila Prabhupada explains in text 217, "the two transcendental qualities of detachment from all material desires and full attachment to Krishna". The qualities of shanta rasa and bhrama-bhuta stage explained in Bhagavad-gita 18.54 are the same. Na socati na kaksati, “He never laments nor desires to have anything”; he has no material aspirations. In text 214 Srila Prabhupada explains, “When one is not agitated or disturbed, he can immediately realize his relationship with Krishna. A santa-rasa devotee is therefore always fixed in realization. This instruction was given by the Lord Himself to Uddhava. The beginning of pure devotional service is called anyabhilasita-sunya. When one is situated on the platform of neutrality, he is freed from the material platform and fully situated in spiritual life”.
  
  
  In this text 215 is mentioned that the devotee does not desire elevation to the heavenly planets nor liberation. These are the results of karma and jnana, and the devotee considers them no better than hell. In his purport to Bg. 18.54, Srila Prabhupada says, “This is the brahma-bhuta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one’s individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents’ teeth.”
  
  
  “‘A person who is devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, is not afraid of anything. Elevation to the heavenly kingdom, condemnation to hell and liberation from material bondage all appear the same to a devotee.’ (
  Text 216
  )
  
  
  “These two qualities of the santa stage spread through the lives of all devotees. They are like the quality of sound in the sky. Sound vibration is found in all material elements. (
  Text 217
  )
  
  
  “It is the nature of santa-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramatma is prominent. (
  Text 218
  )
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the santa-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramatma). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. [One must read Srila Prabhupada’s puport to text 228 to gain further understanding].
  
  
  “On the platform of santa-rasa, one realizes only his constitutional position. But when one is raised to the platform of dasya-rasa, he better understands the full opulence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (
  Text 219
  )
  
  
  “On the dasya-rasa platform, knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is revealed with awe and veneration. By rendering service unto Lord Krishna, the devotee in dasya-rasa gives constant happiness to the Lord. (
  Text 220
  )
  
  
  “The qualities of santa-rasa are also present in dasya-rasa, but service is added. Thus the dasya-rasa platform contains the qualities of both santa-rasa and dasya-rasa. (
  Text 221
  )
  
  
  “The qualities of santa-rasa and the service of dasya-rasa are both present on the platform of sakhya-rasa. On the platform of fraternity, the qualities of dasya-rasa are mixed with the confidence of fraternity instead of awe and veneration. (
  Text 222
  )
  
  
  “On the sakhya-rasa platform, the devotee sometimes offers the Lord service and sometimes makes Krishna serve him in exchange. In their mock fighting, the cowherd boys would sometimes climb on Krishna’s shoulders, and sometimes they would make Krishna climb on their shoulders. (
  Text 223
  )
  
  
  “Awe and veneration are absent on the platform of fraternity, since this rasa is predominated by service imbued with confidentiality. Therefore sakhya-rasa is characterized by the qualities of three rasas. (
  Text 224
  )
  
  
  “On the platform of sakhya-rasa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kåñëa is controlled by the devotees who are intimate with Him and think themselves equal to Him. (
  Text 225
  )
  
  
  “On the platform of parental love, the qualities of santa-rasa, dasya-rasa and sakhya-rasa are transformed into a form of service called maintenance. (
  Text 226
  )
  
  
  “The essence of fraternal love is intimacy devoid of the formality and veneration found in dasya-rasa. Due to a greater sense of intimacy, the devotee functioning in parental love chastises and rebukes the Lord in an ordinary way. (
  Text 227
  )
  
  
  “On the platform of parental love, the devotee considers himself the Lord’s maintainer. Thus the Lord is the object of maintenance, like a son, and therefore this mellow is full of the qualities of four rasas-santa-rasa, dasya-rasa, fraternity and parental love. This is more transcendental nectar.
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  In his Amrita-pravaha-bhasya, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives us a short summary of this complicated description of the different rasas. He states that by becoming firmly fixed in the Lord’s service, one is devoid of all material desires. These are the two transcendental qualities on the santa-rasa platform. Just as sound vibration is found in all the material elements, these two qualities of santa-rasa are spread throughout all the other transcendental mellows, which are known as dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa and madhura-rasa. Although in santa-rasa there is attachment for Krisha in awe and veneration-since the two valuable transcendental qualities of this rasa are attachment for Krishnaa and detachment from material desires-nonetheless the sense of intimacy is lacking. The reason for this is that in santa-rasa attachment for impersonal Brahman and localized Paramatma is prominent. In other words, the sense of intimacy by which one thinks of Krishna as one’s only shelter and friend is absent in santa-rasa because one accepts Krishna as the impersonal Parambrahma or localized Paramatma. This understanding is based on the speculative knowledge of the jñani. However, when this knowledge is further developed, one is convinced that the Paramatma, the Supreme Lord, is the master and that the living entity is His eternal servant. One then attains the platform of dasya-rasa. In dasya-rasa the Lord is accepted with awe and veneration. Thus the active service that is absent in santa-rasa becomes prominent in dasya-rasa. In other words, in dasya-rasa the qualities of santa-rasa are present, and service also becomes predominantly visible. Similarly, when this same rasa is developed into fraternity (sakhya-rasa), a friendly intimacy is added. There is no awe or veneration in sakhya-rasa. Therefore sakhya-rasa is invested with the qualities of three rasas-santa, däsya and sakhya. Similarly, on the platform of parental love, the qualities of çänta-rasa, dasya-rasa and sakhya-rasa are fully developed in another form-the sense of maintaining the Lord. Therefore on the platform of parental love there exists a combination of the qualities of four transcendental mellows-santa, dasya, sakhya and parenthood. The mellow of parenthood puts the devotee in the position of a maintainer. Indeed, without formality the devotee takes the position of maintainer and regards the Lord as the object of maintenance. Thus on the platform of parental love the qualities of four transcendental mellows of love of Krishnaa are present. (
  Text 228
  )
  
  
  “The exchange of spiritual happiness between Krishna and His devotee in which Krishna is controlled by His devotee is compared to an ocean of nectar into which the devotee and Krishna plunge. This is the verdict of learned scholars who appreciate Krishna’s opulence. (
  Text 229
  )
  
  
  “‘Again let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. O my Lord, I offer my obeisances hundreds and thousands of times with all affection because by Your personal pastimes You plunge the gopis into an ocean of nectar. Appreciating Your opulence, devotees generally declare that You are always subjugated by their feelings.’ (
  Text 230
  )
  
  
  “On the platform of conjugal love, attachment for Kåñëa, rendering service unto Him, the relaxed feelings of fraternity and the feelings of maintenance all increase in intimacy. (
  Text 231
  )
  
  
  “On the platform of conjugal love, the devotee offers his body in the service of the Lord. Thus on this platform the transcendental qualities of all five rasas are present. (
  Text 232
  )
  
  
  “All the material qualities evolve one after another in the material elements, beginning from ether. By gradual evolution, first one quality develops, then two qualities develop, then three and four, until all five qualities are found in earth. (
  Text 233
  )
  
  
  “Similarly, on the platform of conjugal love, all the feelings of the devotees are amalgamated. The intensified taste is certainly wonderful.” (
  Text 234
  )
  
  
  “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then concluded, “I have simply given a general survey describing the mellows of devotional service. You can consider how to adjust and expand this. “When one thinks of Krishna constantly, love for Him manifests within the heart. Even though one may be ignorant, one can reach the far shore of the ocean of transcendental love by Lord Krishna’s mercy.” (
  Text 235-236
  )
  
  

 

One cannot remain in the brahma-bhuta stage without engaging in the service of the Lord:

 

• “The yogi whose mind is fixed on Me verily attains the highest happiness. By virtue of his identity with Brahman, he is liberated; his mind is peaceful, his passions are quieted, and he is freed from sin.”
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  Brahma-bhuta is the state of being free from material contamination and situated in the transcendental service of the Lord. Mad-bhaktim labhate param. One cannot remain in the quality of Brahman, the Absolute, until one’s mind is fixed on the lotus feet of the Lord. Sa vai manah Krishna -padaravindayoh. To be always engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, or to remain in Krishna consciousness, is to be factually liberated from the mode of passion and all material contamination. (
  Bhagavad-gita 6.27
  )
  
  
  In the word of Srimad-Bhagavatam unless one is engaged in the service of the Lord one should fall from the brahman realization due to fail to take shelter of the transcendental Lord Sri Krishna, whose eyes are like lotus petals, and therefore having an impure intelligence.
  
  
  “Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.”
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  The Lord has already explained to Arjuna the knowledge of brahmabhuta. One who is in the brahma-bhuta condition is joyful; he never laments, nor does he desire anything. That is due to confidential knowledge. Krishna also discloses knowledge of the Supersoul. This is also Brahman knowledge, knowledge of Brahman, but it is superior. (
  Bhagavad-gita 18.63
  )
  
  
  “Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit.”
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone’s heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, “Just always think of Me.” The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gita. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Krishna, a pure devotee of Krishna. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Krishna is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities. (
  Bhagavad-gita 18.64
  )
  
  
  “Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.”
  
  
  PURPORT
  
  
  The most confidential part of knowledge is that one should become a pure devotee of Krishna and always think of Him and act for Him…These words stress that one should concentrate his mind upon Krishna -the very form with two hands carrying a flute, the bluish boy with a beautiful face and peacock feathers in His hair. There are descriptions of Krishna found in the Brahma-samhita and other literatures. One should fix his mind on this original form of Godhead, Krishna. (
  Bhagavad-gita 18.65
  )
  
  

 

So, we should meditate upon that beautiful bluish boy Who plays His wonderful pastimes in Vrindavana.

 

Pranamami sada prabhupada padam

I offer my respectful obeisances unto Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet eternally.

 

Pranamami saci-suta-gaura-varam

I offer my respectful obeisances unto Gaura, the beautiful Son of Mother Saci.

 

Amara aparadha guchi suddha nama ruci

When my offenses will cease there will be taste for the pure holy name.

 

 

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

[Guruvani]

What is wrong with the above article by Nandanandana das is that he presumes and proposes that the constitutional positions of some fallen jivas are dasya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa, sakhya-rasa or madhurya-rasa which is in effect operating on the timeless ISKCON myth that pure devotees of Krishna fall down from Goloka.

 

His concept also disgregards the instructions of Mahaprabhu on the nature of the bhakti-lata bija that is planted by the spiritual master.

 

All jivas are the same.

 

Their rasa with Krishna is determined by the type of seed planted by the spiritual master.

 

You can't plant an apple seed and grow an Orange tree.

 

The seeds being planted in the Gaudiya sampradaya have a certain quality.

 

No fallen soul had any particular relationship with Krishna other than impersonal shanta-rasa before he fell from that position.

 

All fallen souls in the material world are coming from the constitutional position of impersonal shanta-rasa without any personal conception of the absolute truth. Spirit sparks of Krishna's effulgence are also servants of Krishna in shanta-rasa.

That is why they fell down.

They didn't have any service to the Lord other than being a spirit spark in his effulgence.

That is also a form of service but it is a neutral position and therefore succeptible to falldown.

 

So, my article has flushed out the ISKCON myth that I will scientifically and systematicaly dismantle with the books of Srila Prabhupada.