Our constitutional body is eternal, presently we are all dreaming

[gHari]

This would help distinguish between quotes and non-quotes: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/blockquote.html

 

 

Like this:

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>

"Myquote"

</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

There is no origin to our individual ‘svarupa or nitya-siddha body' which is the full identity of all marginal living entities in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

 

Every marginal living entity has an authentic nitya-siddha svarupa or sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can realize while trapped in their lower nitya-baddha dreaming self if they turn to Krishna Conscious, or can never realize if they continue to choose to misuse their free will and not seek out their original Krishna Consciousness

 

Srila Prabhupada – “By the grace of Krishna only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Krishna. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

 

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya' kabhu naya

 

 

 

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

 

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata".

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

 

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked, “What does this mean?” We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again, “What does this mean?” We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said, “Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.” Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the 'seen' disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Nope, that sentence is still not English. Sorry.

 

"...is an Krishna enter the..."??!?!?!?!

 

It looks like you're having some trouble with HTML. There's a button in the top right corner of the editor that lets one switch into HTML-editing mode. It looks like this:

 

You'll either need to use that to clean up the text you are copying and pasting, or else copy the text into a plain text editor like Notepad (on Windows) and clean it up there before pasting into the Forum.

 

I apologize for my snarky remarks. I am in no way superior to anyone, and your input is certainly welcome.

 

 

 

Because the Kingdom of laceName>God</ST1:PlaceName> is an <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "]<st1:City" /><st1:place>Milton</st1:place> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p]< o:p>

.

<font size=" /><st1:Street><st1:address>Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place</st1:address></st1:Street> that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe).

</o:p]<>

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

There is something wrong with the net I did not post the above Here is what I tried to post

 

 

'Because the Kingdom of Krishna s an <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:P< ns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<o:p]

.

<font size=" prefix="st1" <?xml:namespace an is ST1:P></ST1:P<><st1:Street><st1:address>Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place</st1:address></st1:Street> that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime orrelationship with Krishna, can change in the spiritual universe of Goloka-Vrndavana)."Myquote"

[Sarva gattah]

 

Prabhu, the choice to leave could only come from an eternal servant, Like Jaya and Vijaya, and that is not a fall down. It is a descent.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

[Murali_Mohan_das]

There's nothing wrong with the "net". You're seeing some "bugs" in the forum software. The forum software accepts both HTML as well as "smart-tags" like the "quote" tag (with square brackets around it).

 

Certain features of HTML seem to confound the forum's software. I made a couple of suggestions earlier in the thread as to how you can get the text you want into the forum without corruption. Copying the text into "Notepad" or something like that which would strip the HTML from it and then copying into the forum might be the simplest approach.

 

 

 

There is something wrong with the net I did not post the above Here is what I tried to post

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

This would help distinguish between quotes and non-quotes: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/blockquote.html

 

 

 

Like this:

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>

"Myquote"

</BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you prabhu for the tip I used it in the previous post

[Sarva gattah]

 

Actually there is no choice to leave. That is misunderstanding of the situation. Such a weighing of options could only take place on a mundane intellectual level well where all cost benefit analysis takes place, in which case the subject is already fallen out of Goloka.

 

The fall idea hinges on a raw simple bare naked desire to experience life as the central enjoyer at which point one immediately begins his sojourn outside of his natural svarupa or rasa body. The same one he returns to when he reawakens to his svarupa.

 

The objection is, "no one sleeps or dreams in Goloka." Of course not. That is because when he reawakens he not only goes back to the same svarupa but also to the same moment because THERE IS NO PAST OR FUTURE IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.

 

This is the argument. Rather one chooses to accept this or not you should at least understand what you are disagreeing with.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

 

SB 4.28.53 portion of purport:

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varaha Purana, He expands Himself in visnu-tattva (the svamsa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnamsa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the Prema-vivarta it is said:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body.

 

 

 

So, according to this, it is possible that some jivas fall down from the service of the Lord, (not to be misconstrued with serving Maha Maya who is "one with the Lord.")

 

We fall down because we develop a consciousness of duality, this causes us to hate something we are already on some level cognizant of, service to the Lord. So we want to be him or at least imitate him.

 

This is congurent with the neutrality of being a living entity on the shore of the Viraja river and being in full view, in awe, of the spiritual kingdom. This witnessing with awe is pleasing to the Lord so could be considered our first service to him. But there is no mood of service on our part, and Maha Maya is pretty awesome too, being invested with his own potency.

 

And since Krsna desires to expand his pastimes through the impregnating of jivas into the material world, this all works out quite nicely. We leaned toward her.

 

 

 

Time to do the needful to fortified with the mellow of service so as not to flirt with the unsteadiness of impersonal awe, at least throw some reverence into the mix, there is a person to revere more than our self, and Maha Maya put together. That really kicks off the infinite spiral of service, but requires quite a humble attitude regarding our own self estimation.

 

 

 

Jaya Prabhupada, Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupad had two was of preaching.

One was with shastric siddhanta and the other was with fairytale.

 

The fall-from-goloka is the fairytale because nitya-siddhas are nitya-siddha.

 

What part of "nitya-siddha" is it that the fall from Goloka theorists do not understand?

 

If nitya-siddhas fall down there there is no such thing as a nitya-siddha.

[Guruvani]

None of the disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur believe in any fall-from-goloka theory.

Such a theory is an ISKCON fairytale that never existed in the Gaudiya sampradaya until some hippies from the USA invented the fairytale.

 

If they bothered to read the books of Srila Prabhupada they would have to give up their fairytale.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I very much like the way you phrase your comments here.

 

Also, it's interesting to note that, in this purport, nowhere does Srila Prabhupada specifically mention Goloka.

 

The Brahmajyoti is also part of Godhead, isn't it? So, when the impersonalists merge with the Brahmajyoti, aren't they, in a sense, "going back to Godhead"?

 

Furthermore, with regards to "hating the service of the Lord", that can happen anywhere can't it? Just like we can serve the Lord anywhere.

 

 

SB 4.28.53 portion of purport:

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varaha Purana, He expands Himself in visnu-tattva (the svamsa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnamsa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the Prema-vivarta it is said:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body.

 

 

 

So, according to this, it is possible that some jivas fall down from the service of the Lord, (not to be misconstrued with serving Maha Maya who is "one with the Lord.")

 

We fall down because we develop a consciousness of duality, this causes us to hate something we are already on some level cognizant of, service to the Lord. So we want to be him or at least imitate him.

 

This is congurent with the neutrality of being a living entity on the shore of the Viraja river and being in full view, in awe, of the spiritual kingdom. This witnessing with awe is pleasing to the Lord so could be considered our first service to him. But there is no mood of service on our part, and Maha Maya is pretty awesome too, being invested with his own potency.

 

And since Krsna desires to expand his pastimes through the impregnating of jivas into the material world, this all works out quite nicely. We leaned toward her.

 

 

 

Time to do the needful to fortified with the mellow of service so as not to flirt with the unsteadiness of impersonal awe, at least throw some reverence into the mix, there is a person to revere more than our self, and Maha Maya put together. That really kicks off the infinite spiral of service, but requires quite a humble attitude regarding our own self estimation.

 

 

 

Jaya Prabhupada, Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

 

Furthermore, with regards to "hating the service of the Lord", that can happen anywhere can't it? Just like we can serve the Lord anywhere.

 

I think the word "hate" is a very strong word that does not match the shastric version.

 

The shastra mentions "attraction" and "aversion".

 

As far as I am concerned "aversion" is not hatred.

 

I am averse to certain things, people and ideas but that does not mean I "hate" them.

 

The living entity falls from the brahmajyoti because of aversion to the service of the Lord.

 

They avoid it.(because of lack of knowledge)

They don't "hate" it.

 

This is where I have to consider that Srila Prabhupada's choice of words in this regard are too strong and part of his fairtytale method of preaching.

 

Sometimes this ISKCON fairytale legacy makes me feel like I just want to reject my whole affiliation with ISKCON and my pseudo ritvik intiation that I think was a rip-off.

 

I gave my life to ISKCON and I never even got one world with Srila Prabhupada even when he was 5 feet in front of me and I was giving my life and my material possessions to ISKCON and I couldn't even get a smile or a glance from Srila Prabhupada.

 

I might eventually just reject my whole ISKCON connection and try to get a genuine diksha initiation someday.

 

I didn't get one in ISKCON.

 

It was a haox as far as I am concerned.

 

I am not a disciple of anyone.

 

I can't identify with ISKCON anymore or give any credibility to the hokey initiation I got in the corperate institution.

[Guruvani]

The claim that pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka come to "hate the service of Krishna" is to me the most bizarre and confused conception that has ever been attached to Gaudiya siddhanta.

It completely contradicts everything that shastra and the acharyas say about the love of the pure devotees.

 

I am personally very confused why Srila Prabhupada would even infer such an idea even by remote suggestions.

 

To me it is just a contradiction and a very confusing concept.

 

It completely defeats the whole conception of nitya-siddha and the concept of liberation and perfection in devotional service.

 

I don't believe Srila Prabhupada EVER directly said such a thing but I do concede that he almost encourages the idea indirectly.

 

I don't understand or appreciate that tactic because in the long run it has become something that has alienated ISKCON from the greater Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya.

 

What seemed useful and effective in the early days of introducting KC to the western world has now become a burden and an obstacle to ISKCON keeping in the forefront of the global Gaudiya Vaishnava society.

 

These old ISKCON fairytales have doomed ISKCON to being an anomoly in Gaudiya Vaishnavism that is crippling ISKCON and dooming it to become the laughing stock of the greater Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

I guess that is where it belongs.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavism will march on in the western world and leave ISKCON in the dust of fairytales and myths.

[Guruvani]

I also believed in the fall-from-goloka fairytale for many years.

Then in the last few years I have spent many, many days and hours studying the books of Srila Prabhupada and the books showed me a different light.

 

I usually spend at least 20 hours a weeks studying the books.

Some weeks I will spend upwards to 40 or 50 hours reading the books.

 

In the books, I don't find any fall-from-goloka fairytale, but I do find an indirect allegorical concept that sort of encourages that conclusion.

 

Myself, I don't need the fairytale to encourage to me accept Krishna and his devotional service.

 

Maybe I am diffferent than many western devotees.

 

I think the authentic shastric version is a lot more inspiring to me.

 

If Krishna devotees are falling down from Goloka then I might as well become a jnani and create my own Vaikuntha planet as a devotee of Sada-siva, become one with Sada-siva and have my own eternal realm.

 

Shivoham!!!!!!!!!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

I gather it is a split second thing.

 

You know the Jiva is either absorbed in the body of Visnu (post universal dissolution) awaiting redistribution according to past desires and advancement, or just being newly created from the marginal potential energy, in which case the appearance in pure neutrality at the banks of the Viraja could stimulate the original movement of that jiva to go either way.

 

The only way anyone could have a memory of who they were last, would be by Krsna's arrangement, and I gather this does not happen very often.

 

The point is that in the split second of desiring to enjoy one's self, which leads to developing the consciousness of duality, and thus hatred (aversion) to serving the Lord, must happen to one who never actually enjoyed conscious reciprocally loving service of the Lord.

 

They simply had an awesome darshan of the Lord and his associates from a distance, while glancing over their shoulder after already enticed by Maha Maya to head for the realm of illusory pleasure.

 

Apparently this is enough for us to remember the Lord unconsciously when in great distress, such as in the womb.

 

Srila Prabhupada took a very extended lateral liberal view of "serving the Lord in Godhead".

 

As Guruvani repeatedly points out, this must have been a preaching method to reach the extraordinarily false-egocentric westerners, and was technically the truth of the siddhanta. A master preacher.

 

He hooked them in real nicely, and gave them everything they wanted, including a big fat institution they could run to the ground.

 

Simultaneously, he gave the more discriminating among us the goods to see the higher level of how to understand who we are and where we came from.

 

And the most discriminating don't even care much or speak of the issue because they consider it irrelevant to the path ahead, Crow and Tal fruit for sure.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

 

Jaya Bolenatha

[Guruvani]

 

 

And the most discriminating don't even care much or speak of the issue because they consider it irrelevant to the path ahead, Crow and Tal fruit for sure.

 

I hear that same position and attitude from many people on this forum.

For me, I don't see it that way.

These philosophical idiosyncracies will make ISKCON a freak of Gaudiya Vaishnavism as western Vaishnavas become conversant with the Gaudiya canon and the classic philososphy that ISKCON has strayed away from.

 

Personally, I hate to see Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON reduced down to the laughing stock of the Gaudiya world in the 21st century.

 

Crow and Tal fruit?

 

I don't see the mutilation of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada as any such thing.

I think it is just sad and regrettable.

 

I wanted and expected great things from ISKCON.

 

I don't think ISKCON will ever meet the goals and expectations of Srila Prabhupada now that there are literate western Vaishnavas that are shooting holes in the ISKCON myths.

 

Before Srila Prabhupada this fall-from-goloka myth never existed in the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I think the fairytale allegorical presentation is going to backfire on ISKCON in the 21st century and is even erroding my own faith in Srila Prabhupada's approach to preaching in the western world.

 

I can't be a part of such a circus.

[Guruvani]

the bottom life for me is this fall-from-goloka myth that Srila Prabhupada seemed to encourage gives a mixed-message - a contradiction in teachings.

 

Myself, the one thing I never expected and would never accept in any spiritual faith is contradictions and a mixed-message.

 

When it comes down to being told two different versions of the truth then I will start to have doubts and become skeptical.

 

I see a mixed message in this fall-from-goloka fairytale that Srila Prabhupada encouraged and other things that are in his books and the shastra.

 

I don't want to hear two different conflicting versions of something in shastra.

 

If it comes down to the fact that this mixed-message cannot ever be reconciled then I will just try to find solace somewhere I find consistency.

 

Srila Prabhupada never directly stated a fall-from-goloka conclusion but he did seem to encourage and allow his disciples to create the myth.

 

I am not satisfied with that.

I personally don't think this fairytale was actually necessary to get westerners to accept Kc.

 

Srila Prabhupada seems to have thought it was useful.

 

I don't really think it was.

[Vigraha]

(marginal) we are". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 -- San Francisco, March 28, 1968 </p>

 

<font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. <b><i>(Lectur

[Guruvani]

 

(marginal) we are". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 -- San Francisco, March 28, 1968

 

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure.

That statement contradicts what Lord Krishna says about the liberated souls being infallible.

In other words it goes against what Lord Krishna has said in Bhagavad-Gita.

So, what to do?

There only thing I can do is just dismiss it as some preaching tactic that Srila Prabhupada thought was useful for the time being.

In the end I think it will backfire and do more harm than good.

Lord Krishna says his devotees are infallible.

Srila Prabhupada says they are fallible.

Why the contradiction?

It's a bad policy if you ask me.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada has also said that living in the Hare Krishna temple was Vaikuntha.

So, because these guys extract partial statements from conversations, they like to compare falling from ISKCON with falling from Goloka.

 

Well, even if the temple is Vaikuntha, if you are not a liberated soul it doesn't matter.

 

So, sure you can fall from Vaikuntha if you leave the Krishna temple.

But, you were never liberated and never realized it was Vaikuntha so what does it matter?

 

But, the fall-from-goloka theorists isolate statements of Srila Prabhupada out of context and use that to support their bogus theory that Srila Prabhupada does not support in his books.

[Vigraha]

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu – “When we "return" to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth” Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

 

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked, “What does this mean?” We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again, “What does this mean?” We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said, “Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.” Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.29.2b.

 

The eternal 'reality of sevice to Radha and Krishna' is shown below within the lotus flower abode of Lord Krishna and Lord Chaitanya. The surronding Vaikuntha planets are also within the realms of 'eternal' reality of servitude to Lord Vishnu..

 

It is only within a dark petal of that lotus flower as shown below, that the 'perpetual reality' of the Spiritual Sky is divided into past, present and future and under the control of Maha-Vishnu who is actually dreaming all the activities within that petal or dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky.

The side effect of this phenomenon is everything is impermanent within the mahat-tattva (material creation) dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The material world is like a day

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

 

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu’ Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation, however no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation. We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada saw all the same things we saw; the buildings, the cars, the people, the oceans, the mountains.

 

So, was Srila Prabhupada dreaming?

 

I thought that liberated souls weren't dreaming.

I thought they were awake to reality.

 

The only dream is that we don't realize that all this material creation is Krishna's creation made of material energy.

The dream is not seeing things with proper knowledge.

The dream is that we think that we are these material bodies.

 

We have a material body.

That is not a dream.

 

The dream is that we think we are these material bodies.

 

For the pure devotee of Krishna this material world is as real as the spiritual world because he is serving Krishna even while in the material world.

 

Is the deity made of marble also a dream?

 

We don't have to leave the material world to be awake from dreaming.

[suchandra]

 

 

The dream is that we think we are these material bodies.

 

 

Scientists have identified distinct stages that your mind and body go through while you sleep - they speak of five stages of sleep. What stage of sleep do you ( Japa Jim ) refer to as dreaming stage?

[Guruvani]

 

Scientists have identified distinct stages that your mind and body go through while you sleep - they speak of five stages of sleep. What stage of sleep do you ( Japa Jim ) refer to as dreaming stage?

 

Maybe I won't answer that point because I am not sure of it's relevance.

 

What I will say is that the word "dream" has another meaning of popular usage that might help us understand things a little better.

 

Dreaming is also desiring.

Martim Luther King said "I have a dream".

 

His dream was equal rights for blacks and the end of racism in America.

 

When I was a young man I "dreamed" of being a rock star.

 

Srila Prabhupada dreamed of fulfilling the orders of his spiritual master and spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world.

 

So, dreaming is also conceptualizing our ambitions, goals and aspirations.

 

You don't have to be asleep to dream.

 

President Bush dreamed of freeing Iraqis from a cruel tyrant and establishing democracy in Iraq.

 

So, in exactly what way Srila Prabhupada was using the term can be up for challenge.

 

I don't buy into the fall-from-goloka theorists version of dreaming.

That I can say for sure.