Our constitutional body is eternal, presently we are all dreaming

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WE ARE NOT THESE MATERIAL (ETHEREAL AND BIOLOGICAL) BODIES!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As long as we think we are the gross disgusting biological human body and mind, then how can we ever understand the deep secrets of Spiritual life?

 

Being marginal, which ALL of us eternal are, means we can use our free will to choose to remain as who we really are eternally in Goloka AS our fully Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or we can ‘sub-consciously’ drift off into a ‘dream’ that is out of synch (eternal time in Goloka) from that perpetual body serving Krishna in Goloka and enter the perishable material creation, NOT as our eternal devotional Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body, but as a bodiless non-Krishna conscious DREAMING projection known as the nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

 

 

 

 

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

This extended conscious projection, known as the nitya-baddha consciousness, is then provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu. This enables the inferior non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity to enter His dreaming mahat-tattva creation and seek out their mistaken desires of grandeur.

[Vigraha]

In this way the secondary nitya-baddha consciousness creates its own counterfeit bodily forms or vessels of ethereal and biological structure facilitated and provided by the creator of the material creation or mahat-tattva Maha-Vishnu. Only through His provisions, can the nitya-baddha bodiless conscious projection of the marginal living entity, live out their non-Krishna conscious dreams ‘embodied’ within the mahat-tattva. The marginal living entity in their secondary lower nitya-baddha consciousness chases their dreams of self-importance throughout the three worlds of the unlimited universes within the maha-tattva.

Maha-Vishnu, an expansion of the Supreme Lord, gives facility to those who choose to forget Krishna. Such forgetfulness can almost seem an eternity but when they revive their original nitya-siddha identity, the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness will be as if it never happened and simply fades away like all dreams do!!

In this way it is important to understand that all marginal living entities are created as persons first, as a perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna conscious devotee with an eternal ‘svarupa’ body that always serves Krishna even if we cannot remember that vigraha (bodily form) or personal bodily relationship (rasa) with Krishna. Forgetting ones Krishna Conscious bodily origin is due to the free will and choice to be absorbed in our non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha conscious protrusion that is compared to one who chooses darkness rather than light.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

 

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, so the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. (68-12-02)

Srila Prabhupada - 'So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God.

Srila Prabhupada - 'After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. (68-12-02)

 

 

This clearly means they fall down as their nitya-baddha secondary dreaming consciousness and not as their perpetual ‘svarupa’ body

 

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada - 'There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down'. Bhag.-gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha devotee is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.”

There is no mention of originally being in or coming from the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya or the Viraja River.

Srila Prabhupada therefore clearly tells us that we have never been always conditioned because we first originated from Vaikuntha and not tatastha, although as complicated as it may be to understand, our nitya-baddha conscious condition does originate from tatastha. This is because it is activated by our non-Krishna conscious desires. Both those desires and the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada tells us that our original position is nothing less than being a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee eternally serving Krishna as our eternal self (nitya-siddha) in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness that is restricted by the ‘eternal present’ (only existing in Goloka and Vaikuntha) being divided into past, present and future within the mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: “We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . .”

 

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

One can leave if they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal svarupa Krishna Conscious body, which is ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ nitya-baddha secondary conscious state is nothing other than a dreaming phenomenon emanating from ones ‘imperishable’ marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha personality. The full expression of the marginal living entity (nitya-siddha) is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect that deludes the lowly nitya-baddha consciousness which is trapped in forgetfulness within ethereal and biological bodies within the time and space of the material creation or mahat-tattva..

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya is only attained after one (nitya-baddha consciousness) first enters the mahat-tattva in a dreaming state projected from the sub-consciousness of their perpetual original and nitya-siddha authentic body in the Vaikuntha’s. Impersonal liberation is only attained when one abandons their original perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha and further abandons the ethereal and biological vessels one has ‘consciously’ transferred to within the mahat-tattva. It is only after spending billions of life times trapped in the maha-tattva’s ornaments (ethereal and biological vessels) can one enter the impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti. Such. This is what His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada means when he says:

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

This is an important revelation at a time (the beginning of the 21st century) when some Vaishnava traditions foolishly mislead others to believe their origins are from the Brahma-sayujya, Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Tatasta. All these states of impersonal consciousness are only attained after ones nitya-baddha consciousness first passing through the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada – “Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence, but his relationship with krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the lord which is his original or constitutional position. the relationship of the living entity with krsna is eternal as both krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new. 70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. but those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Srila Prabhupada – ‘In the present status of our life we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position’ Introduction to Bhagavad Gita as it is

[Guruvani]

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.23 purport

 

Because they are atomic individual souls eternally (sanātana), they are prone to be covered by the illusory energy, and thus they become separated from the association of the Supreme Lord, just as the sparks of a fire, although one in quality with the fire, are prone to be extinguished when out of the fire. In the Varāha Purāṇa, the living entities are described as separated parts and parcels of the Supreme.

Atomic souls fall down.

Not pure devotees of Krishna.

[Guruvani]

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.23 purport

 

Because they are atomic individual souls eternally (sanātana), they are prone to be covered by the illusory energy, and thus they become separated from the association of the Supreme Lord, just as the sparks of a fire, although one in quality with the fire, are prone to be extinguished when out of the fire. In the Varāha Purāṇa, the living entities are described as separated parts and parcels of the Supreme.

 

Atomic souls fall down.

Not pure devotees of Krishna.

 

In the spiritual world the soul and the body are the same thing.

So, devotees of Krishna are not atomic souls when they attain a spiritual body.

 

Like sparks from a fire, living entities are falling down from association with the Lord as a sparks of his effugence.

[Guruvani]

Are you saying that spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti cannot falldown?

 

You are funny.

 

According to the fall-from-goloka theory only devotees falldown and the spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti never falldown.

 

It's just ridiculous.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.”

There is no mention of originally being in or coming from the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya or the Viraja River.

Here is an example of your cheating.

You put the statement of Srila Prabhupada in quotation marks and then added you own attachment that says "There is no mention of originally being in or coming from the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya or the Viraja River." in a way as to lead people to think that it was part of the statement of Srila Prabhupada.

People who do no pay enough attention to your trickery would not catch this attempt to manipulate and cheat.

Leaving pure consciousness as a pure spiritual spark in the Viraja is also giving up Krishna.

The sparks of Krishna's effuglence are also associated with Krishna as a spark of his effulgence.

Fallen souls falldown from the position of pure consciousness to become covered by illusion and overcome by material desire.

[Guruvani]

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.24 purport,

 

 

After liberation from material contamination, the atomic soul may prefer to REMAIN as a spiritual spark in the effulgent rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the intelligent souls enter into the spiritual planets to associate with the Personality of Godhead.

Note that Srila Prabhupada says that after liberation the spirit spark may REMAIN as a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti or enter into the spiritual planets and associate with Krishna.

Note the use of the word REMAIN as a spirit spark.

[Guruvani]

The fall-from-goloka theory appears to totally reject the fact that there is an unlimited realm of unembodied jivas that make up the brahmajyoti.

The fall-from-goloka theorists seem to suggest that even if one considers that the brahmajyoti exists he must be a mayavadi.

 

According to the fall-from-goloka theory only the eternal pure devotees of Krishna like gopis and cowherd boys falldown and all of the jivas in the brahmajyoti are eternally secure.

 

Of course, this theory is totally absurd and ridiculous.

 

Despite that fact that Srila Prabhupada says many times in his books that the liberated associated of Krishna never fall down, the fall-from-goloka theorists deny that and keep proposing that all the fallen souls were originally pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka who got envious and fell down to material existence.

[theist]

 

The fall-from-goloka theory appears to totally reject the fact that there is an unlimited realm of unembodied jivas that make up the brahmajyoti.

The fall-from-goloka theorists seem to suggest that even if one considers that the brahmajyoti exists he must be a mayavadi.

 

 

Never heard this one from anyone before. Might be a case of build a strawman, pummel it for awhile, then declare victory.

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Here is an example of your cheating.

 

What you ascribe to cheating, I ascribe to laziness and incompetence.

 

More than once, we've asked Vigraha and friends to format their quotes in a more consistent and clear manner, but they refuse to oblige. It seems like the same stuff they keep copying and pasting in without any attempt to clean it up or format it.

 

I was trying to read it all in order to be informed of their position, but I've given up.

 

Now it's just like so many flies buzzing.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The true facts of Spiritual identity

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<font][size=/><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and that will be realised when one is liberated.

is the best." /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

The meaning of the sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - "Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes.

PRABHUPADA - "All tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and that will be realised when one is liberated.

HANSADUTTA: So that's fixed already.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krishna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relationship with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

HANSADUTTA: I see.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No. That is not... Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Chaitanya-charitamrita. Why don't you see?

HANSADUTTA: And Nectar of Devotion.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the best."

HANSADUTTA: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--

PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

 

 

PRABHUPADA: Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 10 February 1971, Gorakhpur

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

It is stated in the Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila, Chapter 22 "The Process of Devotional Service, text 107,

 

 

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

 

 

 

 

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

<FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada – “"Pure love for <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/ /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. <font color=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. <FONT color=blue><FONT color=black>http://caitanyacaritamrta.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black><FONT size=4>com/madhya/22/...<FONT color=black><FONT size=3>http://caitanyacaritamrta

<FONT color=black>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black><FONT size=4>Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti -- love for Krishna <FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT size=4>-- and in the association of genuine devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107): <FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black><FONT size=4><FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT size=4><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT color=black><FONT color=black><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black>Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant devotional service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, dormant love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service”. Guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija.http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/madhya/19/...

<FONT color=black>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black>Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> exists in everyone's heart, and it simply has to be awakened by the regulative process of devotional service. One has to learn to use a typewriter by following the regulative principles of the typing book. One has to place his fingers on the keys in such a way and practice, but when one becomes adept, he can type swiftly and correctly without even looking at the keys. Similarly, one has to follow the rules and regulations of devotional service as they are set down by the spiritual master; then one can come to the point of spontaneous loving service”.

<FONT color=black>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black>This love is already there within the heart of everyone (nitya-siddha krishna-prema). http://caitanyacaritamrta.

<FONT color=black><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">com/madhya/22/...<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">

<FONT color=blue><FONT color=#0000ff>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=black>Srila Prabhupada – “<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness is dormant in everyone's heart, and when one comes in contact with devotees, it is awakened. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness is not artificial. Just as a young boy awakens his natural attraction for a young girl in her association, similarly, if one hears about <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in the association of devotees, he awakens his dormant <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness”.

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

Jayapataka Swami - "The Caitanya-caritamrta describes that pure love of Godhead can never be obtained externally, but it is internally present within us. It is simply covered over. By clearing the contamination covering the heart that love of God will arise. But how do you cleanse the heart? By sravanadi-by hearing and chanting ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

So everyone is already a member of this movement. Everyone is already internally related to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. It is only a question of purifying the mind of all materialistic contamination. Then, freed from all materialistic misconception, we can realize <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as our eternal master and shelter". From the book "Vaishnava Khe? by Jayapataka Swami

[Sarva gattah]

Also, even though one can enter the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya as a spark of inactive effulgence, this state of temporary dreaming inactive or comatose consciousness is not ones original or perpetual fullness.

 

 

 

The fullness of the jiva soul is sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA or ones nitya-siddha-svarupa bodily identity that is eternally situated in Goloka or Vaikuntha beyond of mundane concept of divided time that only exists within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

 

 

Only ones nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva. It is only after much struggle trapped in ethereal and biological vessels, ones nitya-baddha consciousness may find the mistaken illusionary freedom within the impersonal characteristic of ones marginal consciousness known as the collective (along with other nitya-baddha consciousnesses) impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha. Individuality is never lost within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti nor is the connection to ones original authentic nitya-siddha bodily self ever broken, it is only forgotten.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

[Sarva gattah]

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal svarupa Krishna Conscious body, which is ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ nitya-baddha secondary conscious state is nothing other than a dreaming phenomenon emanating from ones ‘imperishable’ marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha personality.

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comLetter to Aniruddha, dated </B><st1:date Year=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned" Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Year="1968" Day="14" Month="11">November 14, 1968</st1:date>,

Srila Prabhupada – "Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a... Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--...That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

"This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

This extended conscious projection, known as the nitya-baddha consciousness, is then provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu so one can give their dreams form within His mahat-tattva creation. This enables the inferior non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity to enter His dreaming mahat-tattva creation and seek out their mistaken desires of grandeur.

All life enters the maha-tattva originally from Goloka or Vaikuntha, no life or jiva souls can originate from the mahat-tattva or Maha-Vishnu, He only facilitates those nitya-siddhas who use their free will in Goloka or Vaikuntha to choose to enter His impermanant creation.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Unless one enters the mahat-tattva as a pure devotee or is playing a part within <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s pastimes, one can only otherwise enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that beomes trapped in a world of forgetfulness divided into past, present and future. In this way the nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva soul is encaged in perishable ethereal and biological bodies which are ornaments or vessels that are non different from the mahat-tattva or material creation.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, Sunday, December 24, 1967

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna" Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - "When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna".Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

Prabhupada - "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down" 760708ed.wdc Conversations

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, "what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?", in the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses". 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya's atmosphere and develop a material body". 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world".69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. for the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole vedic literature. 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete. 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

Srila Prabhupada - "A spirit soul who falls down from the brahmajyoti to the kingdom of maya may have a chance of associating with a pure devotee, and then he may be elevated to the spiritual planets of vaikuntha or to goloka vrindaban. from the brahmajyoti there is no direct promotion to the spiritual planets, and it is clearly stated in the bhagavatam that such souls fall down: patanty adha". 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.” But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived. “So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

 

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships. This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears. “After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”

 

Tatastha consciousness is actually the dreamless dreaming state of the nitya-baddha consciousness ACHIEVED after passing through the mahat-tattva. Therefore jiva tatastha is not the foundation or origin of whom the living entity really is. No living entity can originate from tatastha condition of individual consciousness, they can only enter that dreamless dreaming conscious condition temporarily.

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'He (the living entity) thinks that (impersonal Brahmajyoti) may be his origin , but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

And why is this so? Because the permeant imperishable condition of all living entities is their perpetually nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally liberated and always situate in Goloka or Vaikuntha, even if one is 'dreaming' as there nitya-baddha consciousness that can manifests as jiva bhutah (actively conditioned in the mahat-tattva) and can eventually manifest as jiva-tatastha (dormant or inactive consciousness) for a temorary time and then again falls back to being embodied within the mahat-tattva.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha condition of consciousness. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained. Also the meaning of the Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by -

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

 

Actually what you are presenting are misconceptions and a collection juggled quotes that give an incorrect presentation of Srila Prabhupada teachings. What you are trying to present to others is not understanding the essence of his teachings nor the depth, in fact it appears to be polluted by other so called Vishnava sects that also could never understand that Srila Prabhupada made it very clear we all never originated from 'tatastha consciousness'.

 

Also it was Srila Prabhupada who said we never originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of individual consciousness. He made it very clear we did not originate from tatastha consciousness which is the impersonal condition of ones nitya baddha dreaming consciousness, which is a secondary conditional state of the marginal living entity activated when they want to attempt to be lord and forget Krishna and their own nitya-siddha eternal body.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.29.2b.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousnesses. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

The nitya baddha dreaming consciousness that enters the material dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu as self centred dreams can later proceed to the tatastha impersonal condition of a dreamless dream. This is certainly not a separate place, but rather a conditional state of individual consciousness manifesting in a cluster called the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Tatastha is simply a state of individual consciousness sometimes referred to as jiva tatastha or s’akti, or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti sometimes called jiva sparks or rays of living individual particles of light, which is really a cluster of marginal living entities manifesting as their dreaming dreamless nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

Every marginal living entity has both a perpetual nitya-siddha body and the propensity to manifest a nitya baddha consciousness due to free will. Without free will everything would be all one consciousness

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krishna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies". (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles).

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual sky of the Brahmajyoti there is no change of various kalpas or millenniums, and there are no creative activities in the Vaikuntha worlds. The influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The rays of the transcendental body of the Lord, the unlimited Brahmajyoti, are undeterred by the influence of material energy. Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.3 purport,

 

This goes way deeper than many can presently comprehend. There is a paradox in trying to understand this. You are right if you say the nitya-baddha consciousness does not come from Goloka because only the nitya-siddhas are in Goloka. So what is nitya-baddha consciousness? If it does not came from Goloka where does it come from? This is hard to understand and explain in English.

 

I think the best way to understand this is let’s compare the nitya-siddha body to a bright Sun and the nitya-baddha consciousness to darkness. In the presents of the sun there is no darkness, it simply does not exist. In the same way, in the presents or awareness of ones nitya-siddha body, there is no nitya-baddha consciousness, it simply does not exist. Also when there is darkness (nitya-baddha) it's not that there is no sun (nitya-siddha), it simply means we cannot see it.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

The darkness or the nitya-baddha consciousness is compared also to the tatastha condition of consciousness that is a characteristic born of darkness, such consciousness is tatastha s’akti of the jiva. In fact within that darkness also exists the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Now this place is a real manifestation in the spiritual Sky that takes up 25%, so it is not an illusion it is simply a temporary phenomenon

 

Srila Prabhupada – “.We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

In this way the jiva as there nitya-baddha secondary self originates from the darkness, from tatastha however, the full potential of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna.

 

It is very clear that we never originated from tatastha consciousness because we are already a resident of Goloka and have been there without beginning or end; presently we cannot see that because we are dreaming.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - ‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes.

 

Our full spiritual identity does not originate from tatastha only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva and then the tatastha condition of inactive or dormant consciousness.

 

We (our full constitutional nitya-siddha body) certainly do not originate from tatastha consciousness; no jiva soul (marginal living entity) originates from such an impersonal foundation that is not possible because perpetually we are eternal bodily servants of Krishna in Goloka.

[suchandra]

 

Our full spiritual identity does not originate from tatastha only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva and then the tatastha condition of inactive or dormant consciousness.

 

We (our full constitutional nitya-siddha body) certainly do not originate from tatastha consciousness; no jiva soul (marginal living entity) originates from such an impersonal foundation that is not possible because perpetually we are eternal bodily servants of Krishna in Goloka.

 

Thanks Sarva gattah, yes, Prabhupada and all the great acaryas of our sampradaya and all the other sampradayas surely explained things in such way that it is meant for the understanding of everyone - easily to be understood. Why things should be complicated?

 

[Guruvani]

 

Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.61, purp.)

The fairytale of illusionment in Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subsequent fall of the jiva is based on a theory that contradicts what Srila Prabhupada has taught in this purport.

 

The eternal devotees of Krishna NEVER come in contact with the material energy - NEVER.

 

So, the suggestion that they have, did, could or would is preposterous and contradicts shastric statement to the contrary.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ

sattvaḿ ca miśraḿ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ

na yatra māyā kim utāpare harer

anuvratā yatra surāsurārcitāḥ

 

 

SYNONYMS

pravartate — prevail; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ tamaḥ — the modes of passion and ignorance; tayoḥ — of both of them; sattvam — the mode of goodness; ca — and; miśram — mixture; na — never; ca — and; kāla — time; vikramaḥ — influence; na — neither; yatra — therein; māyā — illusory, external energy; kim — what; uta — there is; apare — others; hareḥ — of the Personality of Godhead; anuvratāḥ — devotees; yatra — wherein; sura — by the demigods; asura — and the demons; arcitāḥ — worshiped.

 

 

TRANSLATION

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees.

 

 

So, maya cannot touch any devotee in the spiritual world.

That being said there is no way for them to fall into illusions and think that they would be better off not serving Krishna.

[shiva]

The ridiculousness from you guys just doesn't stop.

 

Look at the dumb statements you are making. You claim the jiva is the marginal energy, but then claim that the jiva is not tatastha sakti. GAAAAWWDD.

 

Look guys, "marginal energy" is how Prabhupada translated "tatastha sakti" into english, jeez.

 

 

e dui,----bhavera 'svarupa', 'tatastha' laksana

premera laksana ebe suna, sanatana

 

SYNONYMS

 

ei dui--these two; bhavera--of emotion; sva-rupa--constitutional; tatastha--marginal; laksana--symptoms; premera--of love; laksana--the symptoms; ebe--now; suna--hear; sanatana--O Sanatana.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Bhava [emotion] has two different symptoms-constitutional and marginal. Now, My dear Sanatana, listen to the symptoms of love.

 

PURPORT

 

The word suddha-sattva-visesatma means "situated on the transcendental platform of pure goodness." In this way the soul is purified of all material contamination, and this position is called svarupa-laksana, the constitutional symptom of bhava, emotion. By various tastes, one's heart is softened, and there is an awakening of one's loving propensity to render spontaneous service to the Lord. This is called tatastha-laksana, the marginal symptom of bhava.

 

 

Marginal means "on the margin or border". That is what Tatastha means as well.

 

taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 18.126

taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.356

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 20.357

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.362

taṭastha-lakṣaṇe — marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 22.106

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptom; CC Madhya 22.151

taṭastha — marginal; CC Madhya 23.6

 

From Srila Prabhupada Nectar of Instruction

 

 

Human life is meant for plain living and high thinking. Since all

conditioned living beings are under the control of the Lord's third

energy, this material world is designed so that one is obliged to work.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead has three primary energies, or

potencies. The first is called antaranga-sakti, or the internal potency.

The second is called tatastha-sakti, or the marginal potency. The third

is called bahiranga-sakti, or the external potency. The living entities

constitute the marginal potency, and they are situated between the

internal and external Potencies. Being subordinate as eternal servants

of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the jivatmas, or atomic living

entities, must remain under the control of either the internal or

external potency.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

 

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is;

 

krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation;

 

These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna.

 

Get it?

 

Got it?

 

Good!

[theist]

I see my last short post in agreement with shiva was deleted fpr some odd reason. But let me state it again. It is a simple point and shiva is absolutely correct.

 

If we are not marginal then what is free will?

[Guruvani]

 

 

If we are not marginal then what is free will?

 

Free will is an eternal opportunity for the soul.

That does not change in Goloka.

 

But, in Goloka, that free will is never misused.

They are perfect souls with full knowledge and absolute satisfaction serving and loving Krishna.

 

In Goloka that free will is used properly in ragatmika bhakti to serve Radha and Krishna in a spontaneous serving opportunity.

 

So, free will is perfected in Goloka and Vaikuntha.

 

The option to leave Krishna is always there.

 

But, perfected souls have perfect discretion and absolutely no influence of ignorance or passion that would take them away from serving Krishna.

 

Being liberated does not end free will.

Liberation simply is the perfection of free will in eternal knowledge and bliss.

[suchandra]

 

That does not change in Goloka.

 

 

 

This might be the crux - we try to understand with our tiny brains what is the situation in the transcendental world - an attempt which is an antagonism in itself. Therefore we find the great acaryas quite reserved to encourage such proceeding. Or as it is said, such things can only be understood when it is revealed to you be genuine spiritual mercy, by chanting the Holy Names it will be finally revealed.

 

"This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed."

BG 9.2