Our constitutional body is eternal, presently we are all dreaming

[Guruvani]

The jivas have grown out of the

jiva-shakti

of Sri Krishna.

Chit-shakti

is Sri Krishna's full (plenary)

shakti,

whereas the

jiva-shakti

is the incomplete

shakti.

From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the

jivas

as atomic

chit...

When he desired to have His adherent attendance '

nitya parshada

' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana, Vaikuntha, etc, He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as

nitya-mukta jivas

at those divine worlds... Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate

jivas

for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of

jiva-shakti

as Paramatma,

creates

the

jiva-souls

of

tatastha shakti.

These

jivas

are susceptible to the influence of

maya

... As such, the

conclusion

is that it is the

jiva-shakti

that begets the

jivas,

and not the

chit-shakti.

" (Bhaktivinode Thakura,

Jaiva Dharma,

Chapter 15)

According to

Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita

and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the

tatastha

energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in

Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti.

(

Bhag.

4.30.5, purport)

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (

C.c. Madhya-lila

5.22)

 

[Guruvani]

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance... (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, we can understand from this verse that since none of the material facilities available in any of the universal planetary systems can distract a pure devotee of the Lord, such a devotee can never possibly fall or become inimical to the Lord's service. (Bhag. 11.2.53, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada)

In the spiritual world... no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.)

In the spiritual world, there is no forgetfulness by the living entities, who are free from all kinds of contaminations resulting from the forgetful state of existence... the whole atmosphere of the spiritual world is called

vidya,

or full of knowledge. (Bhag. 2.6.21, purp.)

. . . in that pure conscious state [in the spiritual world] the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (Bhag. 2.9.1, purp. last parag.)

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

A

nitya-mukta

never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is

nitya-mukta

. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are

nitya-mukta,

everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (

Bhag.

6.1.34-6, purp.)

A man with full knowledge knows perfectly well that there cannot be any existence without Krsna. (

Bhag.

7.15.58, purp.)

An exalted and pure devotee like Maharaja Ambarisa is in full awareness of Paramatma, Brahman,

maya,

the material world, the spiritual world, and how things are going on everywhere. (

Bhag.

9.5.25, purp.)

... he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (

Cc. Madhya-lila

20.118, purp.)

. . .the

nitya-siddhas

are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

[the

nitya-mukta

living entity] never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (

Cc. Madhya-lila

20.118, purp.)

The living beings in Vaikunthaloka are never forgetful of their identities: they are eternally cognizant of their relationship with God (

Cc. Madhya-lila

5.22, purp.)

Within this material world there are different grades of forms, and according to the grade, knowledge is proportionately manifested. For example, the knowledge in the body of a child is not as perfect as the knowledge in the body of an adult man. Everywhere there are different grades of living entities–in aquatic animals, in the plants and trees, in the reptiles and insects, in birds and beasts and in the civilized and uncivilized human forms of life. Above the human form of life there are demigods, Caranas and Siddhas on up to Brahmaloka, where Lord Brahma lives, and among these demigods there are always different grades of knowledge. But past this material world, in the spiritual sky, everyone is in full knowledge, and therefore all the living entities there are engaged in devotional service to the Lord, either in the Vaikuntha planets or in Krsnaloka. (

Krsna Book,

Ch 28)

The description of the spiritual world...

Suddha-sattva

means simply goodness, pure goodness... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything... So the living entities there, they are full of knowledge. Therefore they do not come into this material world. (661217CC.NY)

Root of forgetfullness is

avidya,

which is not present in the spiritual world. (cf.

Cc. Madhya-lila

6.155)

Cit

means that he's full of knowledge. That is not in ignorance. This material happiness is in ignorance. And spiritual happiness is

suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva

means pure goodness...

Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam.

That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV)

In the spiritual world the form is

sac-cid-ananda-vigraha.

Every form is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. That is the difference between material world and spiritual world. (760419BG.MEL)

Nitya-siddhas

means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is

nitya-siddha

. Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

 

[Guruvani]

. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

Deathlessness, fearlessness and freedom from the anxieties of old age and disease exist in the kingdom of God. (

Bhag

. 2.6.19, text)

The spiritual world... is especially meant for those who will never be reborn. (

Bhag

. 2.6.20, text)

The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purport)

In the

Padma Purana,

Uttara-khanda

, it is stated ...the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (

Bhag

. 2.9.10, purport)

The three-fourths part manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without any deterioration. (720426SB.TOK)

The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation known to be the Vaikunthalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion and no past and present. With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the Vaikuntha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Let me as a very simple question, if I may.

 

Regardless of whether everybody's "true position" is as nitya-siddha or not, can anybody tell me how seeing ourselves as nitya-siddha is consistent with the teaching of Sriman Mahaprabhu to be humbler than a blade of grass?

 

Regardless of how *we* see them, did Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada or any of the great acharyas *see themselves* as nitya-siddha? What was the mood they expressed in their devotional writings? Is this not the mood to which we should aspire?

 

OK, that was a few questions.

[Sarva gattah]

It seems it is difficult for many to understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. To many of us, the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not correctly understood.

 

The fact is that many devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending 'present' as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

 

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

 

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

“Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

 

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

 

In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The rays of the sun are compared to the living impersonal Brahmajyoti which is the ‘collective’ individual jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) that are like particles of light that makes up the sunshine and consequently appear in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) This in between state is called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman.

 

It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non Krishna conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha.

 

"Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Is this a discussion, or are you just talking to hear yourself speak?

 

 

It seems it is difficult for many to understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. To many of us, the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not correctly understood.

 

...

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's right. All you seem to be capable of is copying and pasting the same material over and over again. I shouldn't expect any answer from you to my questions.

 

What was I thinking?!?!

 

 

Is this a discussion, or are you just talking to hear yourself speak?

[Svarupa]

 

TOKYO 1972:

zrI zuka uvAca

Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan

parasyAnubhavAtmanaH

na ghaTetArtha-sambandhaH

svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA

[sB 2.9.1]

 

 

[...]

 

Karandhara: "SrI-zukaH uvAca--SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said; Atma-- the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mAyAm--the energy; Rte-- without; rAjan--O King..."

 

PrabhupAda: RAjan.

 

Karandhara: RAjan--O King.

 

PrabhupAda: It is address, addressing. Nominative is rAja and addressive is rAjan. Go on.

 

Karandhara: ParasyAsya...

 

PrabhupAda: Parasya.

 

Karandhara: Parasya.

 

PrabhupAda: Parasya. Yes.

 

Karandhara: "Parasya--of the pure soul; anubhava-AtmanaH-- of the purely conscious; na--never; ghaTeta--it can so happen; artha-- meaning; sambandhaH--relation with the material body; svapna-- dream; draSTuH--of the seer; iva--like it; aJjasA--completely."

 

PrabhupAda: AJjasA.

 

Karandhara: "AJjasA--completely. Translation: SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working."

 

PrabhupAda: So, purport?

 

Karandhara: "Purport. The question of MahArAja ParIkSit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind."

 

PrabhupAda: It is a very important question. ParIkSit MahArAja inquired... Many people inquired that "How the living entity was with KRSNa, he became fallen in this material world?" Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that "How the living entity who was with KRSNa became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?" So this is the answer. Read the translation.

 

Karandhara: "SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: O king, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead..."

 

PrabhupAda: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

 

PrabhupAda: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a mAyA, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, "I am fallen. I am material." That is the reason. He is thinking, "I am this body." Actually the body has no connection with me. That is experienced, that the body has no connection with the soul. The body is changing, dying. But I am the same. The same example, the moon: The cloud is passing over in different way. The moon is far away from the cloud, and it has nothing to do with the cloud, but it appears the moon is moving. [break] Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan. Except Atma-mAyA, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of KRSNa. This illusory energy develops when we forget KRSNa. That's all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up KRSNa and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore KRSNa is giving us...

Just like when you play some part in a drama, if you feel that "I am king," then you can talk very nicely. And if you feel that "I am Karandhara," then you cannot play nicely king. Is it not? Feeling must be there. If you are playing the part of a king, then you must have the same courage and belief that "I am king." You have to forget that you are Karandhara. Then your part will be very nicely played. It will be appreciated. But if you think simultaneously that "I am Karandhara. I am taking, playing the part of the king," then you cannot play. So because we wanted to play the part of KRSNa, enjoyer, KRSNa is giving us chance that "You feel like Me."--"I am king. I am KRSNa. I am God." (laughter) All these rascals, those who are feeling like that, "I am master. I am king. I am KRSNa. I am God," they are all simply in that feeling only. That's all. And this feeling is created by KRSNa: "All right. You want to play the part of a king. I shall train you in such a way." Just like director means, dramatic director means, he creates a feeling. His direction is nothing but how to feel.

Sometimes we played in our younger age Caitanya-lIlA. I introduced. And one big director, Amrtalal Chosa, he was just like grandfather. He was one of the, just like in England Shakespeare and others, big, big dramatic, well-known persons. This Amrtalal Chosa and Girish Chandra Chosa, they introduced in India theatric... So we called him to give us direction. He was giving us direction, and repeatedly he was telling that "You feel like that," especially to me. "You feel like that." So actually, when we played according to his direction, the audience were all crying. And we could not understand how they cried. We could not understand. On the stage when we played, it was so perfect that all audience were crying. Actually we saw they were smearing over their eyes with... But the whole thing is artificial, but the effect to the audience became so nice. So similarly, we are... Actually we have nothing to do with this material world, But we have been trained by the illusory energy in such a way that we are thinking, "I am Indian. I am American. I am this. I am that. I am brAhmaNa. I am zUdra. I have to do this. I have got so much duty," all these illusions, simply thinking. We have nothing to do with all this nonsense, but still, we are taking it very serious. "I have to do like that. I have to do like that. I am this. I am that." That's all. That is explained. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan: "Except the influence of that AtmA-mAyA, the illusory energy of KRSNa..." Atma-mAyA. Read. Atma-mAyAm Rte rAjan parasyAnu. Read it?

 

Karandhara: ParasyAnubhavAtmanaH.

 

PrabhupAda: ParasyAnubhavAtmanaH. Na ghaTeta artha-sambandha. There cannot be any relation at all. Na ghaTeta. Cannot be. Artha sambandhaH. Svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA. The very exact example is given, svapna-draSTuH. Just like a man seeing dream: "Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!" He is crying. Another man is, "Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?" But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: "The tiger has attacked me." Therefore this example is given, na ghaTetArtha-sambandhaH. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly we have created this material world and activity. People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors." All these things are created exactly like that, svapna-draSTur ivAJjasA, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That's all.

So the answer is, when somebody asks you that "When one has become in contact with this material nature?" He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, KRSNa has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate KRSNa, so KRSNa has given an opportunity: "All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.' " That is the... So everyone in this material world, they are playing some part. They wanted, "I want to be prime minister.All right.I want to become very big business magnate.I want to be leader.I want to be a philosopher.I want to be a scientist." So all this nonsense, they are trying to play--KRSNa is giving him the opportunity: "All right." But it is a nonsense, all nonsense. Simple dreaming. Just like you are dreaming. Next moment when the dream is gone, everything is finished. No more tiger, no more jungle, no more... Everything is finished. Similarly, so long this body is continuing, I am thinking, "I am a responsible leader, I am this, I am that." But as soon as this body is finished, oh, these are (indistinct) gone.

Sarva-haraz cAham. The death means... KRSNa says, "I am death. I take it away, all, everything. Gone." Now just think of our past life. Suppose I was a king or something like that. From BhRgu-saMhitA it was ascertained. They said--I do not know--that I was a big physician in my last life, very spotless character, no sins, like that. He explained me. So it may be. But actually I have no remembrance that I was a physician. So what do we know? I might have been a very big physician, influential physician, having a good practice, but where is all...? All gone. So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our KRSNa consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply KRSNa's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of KRSNa conscious. "Oh, KRSNa is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly. Now what is the purport? Come on.

 

Karandhara: "The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life."

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. Distinct. Always distinct. Next?

 

Karandhara: "But he is absorbed in such a material conception because of being influenced by the external energy of the Lord, called Atma-mAyA. This is already explained in the First Canto in connection with VyAsadeva's realization of the Supreme Lord and His external energy. The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy."

 

PrabhupAda: KRSNa says, mAm eva ye prapadyante mAyAm etAM taranti te: [bg. 7.14] "As soon as one surrenders unto Me, he has no more illusion." MAyAm etaM taranti. Immediately. So people are conditioned, encaged. So many big, big words The MAyAvAdIs, they are undergoing austerities or penances just to become liberated. Yogis, they are also trying to become one. So many endeavors are going on. But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, "It was illusion. I was dreaming. I am KRSNa's," finished. All gone. "I am KRSNa's. I am KRSNa's eternal servant. These are all nonsense"--he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of KRSNa. Sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja [bg. 18.66]. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by VyAsadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called zAstra. In two lines. Then read the purport.

 

Karandhara: "The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord, being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gItA also the same thing is confirmed, that the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity and all consciousness and forgetfulness of the living entity are influenced by the Lord."

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. Because... Now, people may say that, "Why KRSNa within the heart gives one type of consciousness to one, and another type of consciousness...?" Because I wanted. I wanted to forget KRSNa, so KRSNa is giving consciousness: "All right, you can forget Me in this way." That is His kindness. Just like the MAyAvAdIs, the so-called yogis and karmIs, they wanted to forget. KRSNa is giving him intelligence. "All right. You forget Me like this." That's all. Go on. And if you want to again revive your relationship, KRSNa will give you intelligence. Buddhi-yogaM dadAmi taM yena mAm upayAnti te: "I shall give intelligence." So KRSNa is... Ye yathA mAM prapadyante [bg. 4.11]. As you want, KRSNa gives you facility. Go on.

 

Karandhara: "Now the next question will automatically be made as to why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be engaged in his pure consciousness as the part and parcel of the Lord, and thus be engaged in loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made. But because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become independent as the Lord is. The whole nondevotee class of living entities are all desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are..."

 

PrabhupAda: They will never be God, but we see so many persons. By the influence of the illusory energy they think, "I am God. I am God. I shall become God by pressing my nose like this, doing this." So this is going on. They will never be able. That is not possible. Otherwise, there is no meaning of God. If everyone can become God, then there is no meaning of God. But by influence of... Just like karmIs are saying "I shall become millionaire. I shall become trillionaire. I shall become head of the state. I shall become prime minister." This struggle, this is another struggle: "I shall become God." This is another struggle. But it is illusion. It is illusion. So KRSNa gives them opportunity, some yogic success. Just like in India there is a rascal. He makes like that, and there is immediately some gold. And people become after him: "Oh, he is God. He is God." By producing a little gold, he becomes God. Another yogi, he gives immediately two rasagullA. So by producing two rasagullA, four annas' worth, he becomes God. You see? This is illusion. These rascals, they do not know that, "What is this rasagullA, two rasagullA? I can purchase from the market for four annas. So he is becoming God by four annas?" But they have no sense. "Oh, he is God. He can produce rasagullA." RasagullA I can produce in our kitchen. But they are so rascal. "Oh, wonderful." So the yogic siddhis... So KRSNa gives him some power of yogic siddhi and he thinks that "I have become God," and some flatterers, they also think, "Oh, you are God." The same dream. And as soon as death comes, everything finished, your Godhood and everything finished. Now becomes doghood, come to the stage of doghood. Again, another dream: "I am dog." First of all "I am God," then next stage, "I am dog." This is going on. Therefore Bhaktivinoda ThAkura said, keno mAyAr boze jAccho bhese': "Why you are being washed away by the waves of mAyA? Just fix up. Stand up." JIv kRSNa-dAs ei vizwAs korle to Ar duHkho nAi. You simply remain fixed up on this standpoint, that, "I am eternal servant of KRSNa." Then there is no more dream. And if you allow yourself to be washed away, KRSNa gives you facility, "All right, come on. Be washed away." Then?

 

Karandhara: "The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him."

 

PrabhupAda: Yes.

 

Karandhara: "As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmI and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of Atma-mAyA by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is ‘mine' and this is ‘I.' The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as ‘I' or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is ‘mine.' Thus in dream only the misconception of ‘I and mine' persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love."

 

PrabhupAda: That's all.

Devotees: All glories to you SrIla PrabhupAda. (offer obeisances)

 

Trivikrama: SrIla PrabhupAda? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read...

 

PrabhupAda: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, "Oh, tiger is there." It is simply dreaming condition.

 

Trivikrama: But so many VaiSNavas are praying...

 

PrabhupAda: So as soon as you understand that "This is not... I am not in contact with tiger. It is all a dream," then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand, "All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of KRSNa," then you are liberated. That is KRSNa conscious. If you keep in KRSNa consciousness, that "I am eternal servant of KRSNa," then you are liberated. Sa guNAn samatItyaitAn brahma-bhUyaa kalpate [bg. 14.26], KRSNa says. Immediately brahma-bhUtaH. Brahma-bhUtaH prasannAtmA na zocati na kAGkSati [bg. 18.54]. He has no more lamentation, no more hankering. SamaH sarveSu bhUteSu. He can see everyone on equal vision. Because he knows, "Here is also another living entity." He is not a Chinaman. He is a part and parcel of God. He is not a Christian. He is not a Hindu. He is simply thinking like that. So give him KRSNa consciousness. That is real benefit, to bring him to the original position. Yes?

CintAmaNi: If, when we realize KRSNa, then we have no more desire, then how can we desire...

 

PrabhupAda: You create desire. If you simply keep this contact with KRSNa, then there is no more any other desire than to serve KRSNa. That's all.

 

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...

 

PrabhupAda: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of KRSNa. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in KRSNa's service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of mAyA. You see?

Devotee: Even at that state, still the body is affected by the modes of nature. We are experiencing desires.

 

PrabhupAda: You are not experiencing. Your body is experiencing. You are feeling cold due to this body. You are not feeling cold. You are not feeling cold.

Devotee: But I think I am feeling cold.

 

PrabhupAda: You are thinking. That is illusion. That is illusion.

Devotee: So rise above that.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. But not artificially, but this is the fact. You have to gradually rise to that platform. The fact is this. Just like when you are feverish, actually you are healthy, but it has come. So in the feverish condition you are thinking, "I am now feverish." But this feverish will not, condition, will not stay. You will come to the healthy stage. Therefore don't be disturbed with the feverish condition. Go on with your duty. Don't misidentify, "Now I have become feverish. Everything is finished." No. That is external. It has come; it will go. That is given in the Bhagavad-gItA. MAtrA-sparzAs tu kaunteya zItoSNa-sukha-duHkha-dAH [bg. 2.14]. Just like seasonal changes. Sometimes it is very hot, sometimes very cold, sometimes warm. So these are coming and going. So if there is some feeling of pain and pleasure, simply just tolerate it, but don't be absorbed in that thought. That's all. Therefore titikSava. The first symptoms of a saintly person is titikSava, tolerant. Tolerant. So go on reading, go on understanding. Everything will be clear. So next? There is kIrtana, or finished? (end)

 

 

 

The fact is that many devotees like Murali_Mohan_das find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential (svarupa)of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their nitya-siddha body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending 'present' in their original rasa serving relationships with Krishna, regardless if YOU are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected THEIR idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,

1975)

[Sarva gattah]

Guruvani, Kulapavana, fish, sevabhakta, Beggar, Murali_Mohan, Shakti-Fan etc - “so, yes, we have not fallen down from Goloka. We have never been in Goloka to fall from there”

 

That is not what Srila Prabhupada taught us

 

It’s complicated because technically we do not fall down in our eternal body. Therefore Srila Prabhupada explains further that we CAN fall down from ‘our devotional service’ in Goloka. That’s a another way of seeing it from a different angle of perception than trying to explain over and over again, that factually we can never ever fall down as our eternal bodily form in Goloka. Our svarupa is always there in Goloka serving Krishna : -

 

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . .” Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

“A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly.” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

 

“The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. - Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101.

 

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes. In its diseased condition, the spirit soul engages in material activities under the material covering. Real sense enjoyment is possible only when the disease of materialism is removed. In our real spiritual form, free from all material contamination, pure enjoyment of the senses is possible”. Srī Isopanisad 11 Srila Prabhupada’s purport Text 11 purport

 

The pratisthacharya of the Sri sampradaya, Srila Ramanujacharya also explains the jiva has an original perpetual bodily form -

 

 

 

atma-svarupa-matrasya prag eva siddhatve’pi karma-bandha-vinirmuktaparicchinna-jnanadi-svarupasya hy atravirbhava ucyate.

 

 

“Here it’s stated that the specific form of the jiva’s constitutional body was known, existing in perfection. Upon the manifestation of that form of unlimited knowledge, the jiva is freed from karmic bondage”. - Vedanta-sara commentary on Vedanta sutra 4.4.2

 

“Upon attaining the goal of the Supreme Soul, He serves in his own personal luster and colour and in his own personal form of bliss. At that time, the jiva again attains his imperishable form, completely uncovered and free from impediment”. - Pada-ratnavali commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Jiva Gosvami’s commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam is states the jiva has an eternal form without beginning 11.11.3:

 

 

 

vastuto nitya-mukto’pi pratitito ‘nadi-baddha

iti yugapad ubhayatvam ghatata ity arthah.

 

 

“Simultaneously, both are transpiring: the jiva is eternally liberated in substantive form and is bound without beginning”.

 

We are considered eternally conditioned, because it has been such a long, long time. The history can never be traced out. The history may well be previous to this kalpa’s Brahma. The history of our conditioning is before the material creation:

 

“And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are–I mean to say–sent to this material world”. - Srila Prabhupada Lecture, Buffalo, April 23, 1969

 

“We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Srila Prabhupada letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

NOTE - Eternally conditioned means nitya baddha. Eternally liberated means nitya siddha

 

The eternal condition of the jiva tatastha (marginal living entity) is their perpetual bodily form that is always in Vaikuntha, even if they are in a state of non devotional Krishna Conscious stupor in the material universe.

 

CCC from Chile has posted - Srila Prabhupada is very clear.

 

Is not posible to fall down from Vaikhunta because maya can't enter there, but if you want to leave by your free will why not? are you a slave of Krsna? NO He is not a tyrant, you have free will and if you want to leave for a while, Krsna can't do nothing, He can say you don't go is not a very good place and advise you, but He is not responsible for this, moreover, He come with us as paramatma and see all what are we doing and when we are exhausted here He made the arrangement to go back to home, also the soul may know what is hapening in the material world but the soul has not the experience, so for the soul is like and adventure to come here the soul is not aware of what means to come to the material world and Krsna let him to come because that soul will get the experience. In all this journey He knows all past present and future of the spirit soul and He knows that He will attain again liberation in the future, If Lord Krsna don't give permission to the soul to come to this spiritual world, that means that He is imperfect and not complete and limited.

 

As Srila Bhaktisidanta says in brahma samhita, "tatastha means Jiva". we are not matter and we are not God, we are part and parcel of God and qualitatively up to 78% we are equal to Krsna, but in power and quantity there is a huge difference.

 

"His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya."

[Beggar]

If we believe that we have either come down from a position in our sthayi bhava rasa with Krsna in Goloka ( or we are there and dreaming), then we will see no difference between ourselves and the eternal servitors of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in the transcendental realm. There in Goloka, everything is of a higher spiritual quality than ourselves. Within spiritual life there is variegatedness and hierachy. The inhabitants of the Spiritual World are our gurus. When a former conditioned soul attains bhava and prema and goes back home back to Godhead, he enters into what Sridhar Maharaja calls, "the land of gurus". You may be able to find so many quotes that if taken out of context will appear to contradict this reality, yet they really don't. Hierachy is everywhere including the spiritual realm therefore the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami or the Rupanugas are always his followers as they follow him in his spiritual form in Goloka (when they are in their spiritual forms or swarupas). Rank beginners in the Krsna Consciousness Movement are not able to properly harmonize apparently contradictory statements made by sastra and the sastra guru. (in this case Srila Prabhupada). Thus there is always the need for divine guidance.

[Sarva gattah]

 

If we believe that we have either come down from a position in our sthayi bhava rasa with Krsna in Goloka ( or we are there and dreaming), then we will see no difference between ourselves and the eternal servitors of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in the transcendental realm. There in Goloka, everything is of a higher spiritual quality than ourselves. Within spiritual life there is variegatedness and hierachy. The inhabitants of the Spiritual World are our gurus. When a former conditioned soul attains bhava and prema and goes back home back to Godhead, he enters into what Sridhar Maharaja calls, "the land of gurus". You may be able to find so many quotes that if taken out of context will appear to contradict this reality, yet they really don't. Hierachy is everywhere including the spiritual realm therefore the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami or the Rupanugas are always his followers as they follow him in his spiritual form in Goloka (when they are in their spiritual forms or swarupas). Rank beginners in the Krsna Consciousness Movement are not able to properly harmonize apparently contradictory statements made by sastra and the sastra guru. (in this case Srila Prabhupada). Thus there is always the need for divine guidance.

 

Srila Prabhupada has clearly confirmed that we did indeed come from Goloka and we can fall down (not as our perpetual svarupa body as already explained) from Goloka if we choose to miss use our free will

 

Prabhupada - So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupada - He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupada: - That means you lose your independence.

 

Vipina - And no love.

 

Prabhupada - That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape? - 760708ed.wdc Conversations.

 

We always have choice, even in Goloka

[Beggar]

 

We always have choice, even in Goloka

 

This is not the issue. Are you as good as Srila Rupa Goswami? What is your relationship with him in the spiritual world? At least from a theorectical perspective?

[Guruvani]

 

 

We always have choice, even in Goloka

 

That material energy is not accessible from Goloka.

So, the option to choose maya is not really an option there.

Krishna protects his devotees better than that.

 

The devotees of Goloka have no access to maya.

They cannot fall down.

Their free will is utilized in deciding which way they want to serve Krishna.

The option to enter maya is not available from Goloka.

Maya can only be reached from the Maha-tattva - not Vaikuntha/Goloka.

 

No matter what the fairytale says, I don't buy it.

Maya cannot be reached from Goloka.

The choice to leave Goloka is a myth.

The fairytale of free will of the jiva does not mean that a devotee in Goloka can choose maya.

He cannot, no matter what the fairytale told by Srila Prabhupada says.

 

When you enter Goloka you become eternal slave of Krishna.

If you don't want to be the eternal slave of Krishna, then don't go to Goloka.

There is no return ticket from Goloka.

It's a one way ticket.

[Beggar]

Because your "swarupa body" is in Goloka and Srila Rupa Goswami's swarupa body is there, what is your position in relation to his spiritual form when you awaken from your dream. Is he still guru? What about Raghunatha das Goswami?

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada didn't want to spook devotees with the truth that in Goloka you become the eternal slave of Krishna.

So, he told some fairytale about free will in Goloka.

Free will to fall down and leave Krishna does not exist in Goloka.

 

Not a single devotee has ever fallen from Goloka since time eternal.

Divine slavery.

That is our hope, our dream and our goal.

To be the eternal slave of Krishna is the highest perfection of the soul.

[suchandra]

 

That material energy is not accessible from Goloka.

So, the option to choose maya is not really an option there.

Krishna protects his devotees better than that.

 

The devotees of Goloka have no access to maya.

They cannot fall down.

Their free will is utilized in deciding which way they want to serve Krishna.

The option to enter maya is not available from Goloka.

Maya can only be reached from the Maha-tattva - not Vaikuntha/Goloka.

 

No matter what the fairytale says, I don't buy it.

Maya cannot be reached from Goloka.

The choice to leave Goloka is a myth.

The fairytale of free will of the jiva does not mean that a devotee in Goloka can choose maya.

He cannot, no matter what the fairytale told by Srila Prabhupada says.

 

When you enter Goloka you become eternal slave of Krishna.

If you don't want to be the eternal slave of Krishna, then don't go to Goloka.

There is no return ticket from Goloka.

It's a one way ticket.

If we consider that 1 in 136 of US citizens are behind bars in US prisons, the material world seen as a whole , remember the example of a bucket of mustard seeds, so many universes are there, could be quite likely the prisonhouse of a huge spiritual world. If the living entity, jiva-tattva, becomes manifested in the mahat-tattva, what the heck should be the crime to be born in the material world? After all to be conditioned in the material realm is not just a learning course, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavam mam prapadyate vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabah, to become wise after many births and finally surrender unto Lord Vasudeva, but some kind of punishment. According to coming into existence within the mahat-tattva for the first time, punishment because of what?

[Sarva gattah]

 

This is not the issue. Are you as good as Srila Rupa Goswami? What is your relationship with him in the spiritual world? At least from a theorectical perspective?

 

I am only repeating what Srila Prabhupada told us in 1972, thats all. He is my eternal Spiritual Master

 

Also tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotional service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love?

 

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.

[Sarva gattah]

 

That material energy is not accessible from Goloka.

So, the option to choose maya is not really an option there.

Krishna protects his devotees better than that.

 

The devotees of Goloka have no access to maya.

They cannot fall down.

Their free will is utilized in deciding which way they want to serve Krishna.

The option to enter maya is not available from Goloka.

Maya can only be reached from the Maha-tattva - not Vaikuntha/Goloka.

 

No matter what the fairytale says, I don't buy it.

Maya cannot be reached from Goloka.

The choice to leave Goloka is a myth.

The fairytale of free will of the jiva does not mean that a devotee in Goloka can choose maya.

He cannot, no matter what the fairytale told by Srila Prabhupada says.

 

When you enter Goloka you become eternal slave of Krishna.

If you don't want to be the eternal slave of Krishna, then don't go to Goloka.

There is no return ticket from Goloka.

It's a one way ticket.

 

You must be having another one of your nightmares Guruvani me good old

sparing partner, you'll be right mate, just keep up the chanting of Hare Krishna and in time you will wake up from this mad dream you are having and eventually realize that your authentic bodily identity is already situated and founded in Goloka and has always has been there.

 

Prabhupada - "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve

Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down".

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupada - He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupada: - That means you lose your independence.

 

We all originate from Goloka

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You're still avoiding my very simple question(s). How do the Vaishnava Acharyas see themselves? How is it useful to think of ourselves as nitya siddha? As long as you keep avoiding these questions, I will keep asking them (until I get bored and go away ).

 

That said, the logic below is pitiful. Forget about "impersonal". Why are you so hung up on "impersonal"? Why not focus on the Person?

 

When we focus on the Person, all of these quibbles become meaningless.

 

 

The fact is that many devotees like Murali_Mohan_das find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential (svarupa)of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their nitya-siddha body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending 'present' in their original rasa serving relationships with Krishna, regardless if YOU are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected THEIR idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

[Beggar]

Here's to expound a little bit on some of the questions that myself and Murali Mohan have been asking of the Vigrah and Swarupa crowd:

1.). How do the Vaishnava Acharyas see themselves?

2.) How is it useful to think of ourselves as nitya siddha? How does this relate to one's feeling humbler than a blade of grass?

3.) If we are nitya siddha and dreaming from our "swarupa bodies "then does that make us the same as all of the eternal residents of the the transcenental abodes. Are we not then equal to our gurus, Mahaprahu's and Krsna's eternal associates? And if so, do we therefore have a direct relationship with Krsna? (This relates to earlier posts where I was asking about the Rupanuga devotee's eternal relationship with Srila Rupa Goswami and his camp).

4.) If we are dreaming this material existence from our swarupa bodies then why are those devotees who are proceeding to the spiritual planets trained up in the material earth planet where Krsna is currently performing his nara lila?

5.) Why does Krsna say in BG 15.6, yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama, One who reaches it (My Abode) never returns to this material world. Wouldn't that put the devotees who have fallen or at least are dreaming that they are fallen in a superior position to those eternal associates of Sri Krsna who have not yet fallen? Wouldn't this make a nitya baddha superior to a nitya siddha? In fact why would Srila Prabhupada translate yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama as One who reaches it (My Abode) never returns to this material world. How could we return to a place where we have never been? Even if you disagree, do you not see the apparent contradictions?

6.) Oh, here's another, It appears that the Fall Theory and the Dream Theory advocates ascribe to Srila Prabhupada a unique realization of devotional conclusions on this subject which contradicts Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivnode Thakur. How is this? Some have the audacity to say that the translations given by Srila Prabhupada's godbother's Maths were purposefully mistranslated into the Bengali. But no one who is a Bengali translator into English has ever made this claim!

[Guruvani]

 

Prabhupada - "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve

Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down".

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupada - He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupada: - That means you lose your independence.

 

We all originate from Goloka

 

 

Not a single soul has fallen from Vaikuntha since time eternal.

Jaya and Vijaya did not fall down or reject the Lord.

They didn't want to leave the Lord's service.

So, I don't call that a falldown.

They caught some jnanis trying to enter Vaikuntha and they did their job and stopped them.

They committed no offense.

 

But, Lord Narayana wanted the incident to occur for his own pleasure and pastimes.

Jaya and Vijaya did not falldown.

They came to the material world to serve the Lord according to his pleasure and his mission.

[sevabhakta]

 

Prabhupada - "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve

Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down".

 

Let us not forget the fact that is illustrated in the last part of the purport to

 

 

CC Adi 4. 21-22

 

"Flawless execution of regulative principles is exhibited in the Vaikuntha planets. By strictly executing these principles one can be elevated to the Vaikuntha planets. But spontaneous pure loving service is found in Krsnaloka alone."

 

 

There is a difference between the service of Sri Narayana and Sri Krsna.

 

The 4 types of liberation in service to Sri Narayana are not aspired to by Krsna bhaktas.

 

Those 4 types manifest their features in the Vaikunthas.

 

This is the lynchpin to this debate.

 

I believe that subtly, we want to become God, so we get one of the 4 types of liberation in Vaikuntha, but there is another stage to get to, and the crucible ground for realizing this is in the material world, amidst Krsna's lila.

 

Srila Prabhupada used the word "fall" down in the above quote. (Which is presented without proper references by the way, but what else is new from the Snoozevadis).

 

But if we look at all quotes from SP regarding this issue, we find that this is the only time fall is used to describe what an eternal associate of Lord Visnu does when descending to the material world in order to have a chance to learn about Krsna bhakti.

 

If we adjust our sense of proportion, speaking relative to the phenomenon of purely spontaneous loving service to Sri Krsna Proper, descending from Vaikuntha due to wanting to be Krsna can also be considered a fall, as it is an offense, Just like Jaya and Vijaya committed an offense, though it was manufactured by the will of Lord Narayana, it was still an offense and thus technically a fall, but not the same type of fall that a conditioned soul makes when falling from sadhana, or leaning toward the material world from the tatastha so long ago.

 

So what about the offenses committed in Goloka?

 

What about the descent from Goloka into the body of a demon by Sudama, who became Sankachuda and married Tulsi on Earth?

 

He offended Srimati Radharani, and was cursed to descend to earth.

 

Or should I say fell to earth?

 

So maybe we are all present in Goloka, and just think we have fallen into demonic bodies here in the material world, if the Cowherds can do it, maybe we are all here on a mission to increase the Lord's pleasure??

 

The real question is, are you going to let the fact that we are simultaneously existing in our eternal swarupa in Goloka keep you puffed up and stuck in the other side of that simultaneous coin, that you are just a bumbling conditioned soul who can't even follow the four regs properly and are a long way from realizing and enjoying your "already existing" eternal relationship with Krsna??

 

Apparently some are very close to fitting that description. Beware. It is inconceivable for a reason. Hear it, accept it, but don't dwell on it, or you will make ZERO advancement toward LIVING it.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

 

What about the descent from Goloka into the body of a demon by Sudama, who became Sankachuda and married Tulsi on Earth?

 

He offended Srimati Radharani, and was cursed to descend to earth.

 

 

That's an interesting point.

Where did you find that story and what is the reference?

 

I don't remember reading that in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

I must have missed that part.

 

anyway, you won't find it in Gaudiya books that I know of.

That tale is told by Shaivas who claim the story comes from the Siva Purana.

 

When we start using Shaiva texts translated by bogus Shaivas to debate Gaudiya siddhanta we have strayed way off track.

 

Personally, I think such accusations against a parshada of Krishna is outragious.

 

 

 

The Siva Purana was compiled by Romaharshana - the guy that Lord Balarama killed with a straw of grass for being a puffed-up fool.

[sevabhakta]

Perhaps that is true about the story of Sudama and Tulsi devi. I have the story on a word file. I will have to examine it more closely. Only read it twice.

 

I hope the questionable nature of that story doesn't detract from the rest of my post, because the rest is bona-fide verifiable Prabhupada nectar.

 

I know I am more puffed up than Romaharsana could ever be, so please forgive me.