Our constitutional body is eternal, presently we are all dreaming

[suchandra]

 

Perhaps that is true about the story of Sudama and Tulsi devi. I have the story on a word file. I will have to examine it more closely. Only read it twice.

 

I hope the questionable nature of that story doesn't detract from the rest of my post, because the rest is bona-fide verifiable Prabhupada nectar.

 

I know I am more puffed up than Romaharsana could ever be, so please forgive me.

In Brahma Vaivrata Purana or Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Tulasi devi who is an eternal consort of the Lord, says: "O Lord, you are like a stone! You are merciless! You violated my chastity by deception. And by this means you have killed my husband. O Lord, you are merciless! Yes, Your heart is like a stone. Therefore, I curse you to become a stone. Those who call you holy are doubtlessly wrong. Your devotee committed no offence and yet, for the sake of others, You killed him! Why?"

Overpowered with grief and sadness, Tulasi cried loudly and repeatedly lamented.

Seeing her so upset, Narayana, who is an ocean of mercy, tried to console her according to dharmic rules. He said, "O exalted one, you performed austerities for a long time to get Me as your husband. And Sankhacuda also performed austerities for a long time to get you as his wife. By that austerity, he fulfilled his wish. It was then necessary for Me to fulfil your wish. For this reason, I did what I did. Now leave your earthly body and assume a spiritual body--and be married to Me. Be like Laksmi. Your body will become a famous river known as Gandaki, a virtuous, pure and transparent river in this holy land of India. Your hairs will be transformed into holy trees; and since the trees will be born of you, they will be known as Tulasi trees. All the residents of the three worlds will perform worship with the leaves and flowers of this tree. Thus, you, Tulasi, will reign as the best among trees and flowers."

 

source: http://www.salagram.net/parishad95.htm

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu

Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

 

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

“Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

 

“It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

 

“By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

 

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:Originally Posted by shiva

Marginal means "on the margin or border". That is what Tatastha means as well.

 

taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 18.126

taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.356

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 20.357

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.362

taṭastha-lakṣaṇe — marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 22.106

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptom; CC Madhya 22.151

taṭastha — marginal; CC Madhya 23.6

 

From Srila Prabhupada Nectar of Instruction

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

 

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is;

 

krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation;

 

These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna./ END Quotes From Shiva

 

COMMENT

 

We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s'skti IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu and Shiva also correctly explained to us.

 

The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

 

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

 

Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

 

How have we fallen to the material world?

 

We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation.

 

Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha.

 

The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).

 

"If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings.

 

Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this -

 

“For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?” Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 - 21

 

“The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 - 24

 

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka. Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity.

 

This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love?

 

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.

[Guruvani]

ISKCON guru Sivarama Swami does not accept the fall theory.

 

 

 

 

"The sadhana-siddhas are novices to Sri Krsna's pastimes and have truly not met Him. Their purva-raga is a consequence of associating with the eternal associates." (Venu Gita p.52 by Sivarama Swami)

[Guruvani]

"Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

 

 

 

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.

 

 

Anybody that reads this can understand a proper conception of things as they are.

[Guruvani]

"Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

 

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Guruvani]

A BBT website also does not support the fall theory;

 

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/philosophy2.htm#4

 

 

Jiva and his falldown In the second chapter of his book "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda (page 86 in ISKCON edition from 1999), Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:

"Who are the Harijanas, or Vaisnavas, and what makes them different from the nondevotees? I am quoting various evidence from the scriptures and sentiments of devotees in this Hari-jana-khanda to answer these questions.

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD [emphasis mine], he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.

"The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and nondevotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

"Maya, the external energy of the Supreme Lord, then induces the marginal living entity to enjoy this world through her covering and throwing potencies and thus shows the living entity the reality of being averse to the Lord's service.

"At that time the living entity considers himself the king of enjoyers, and being situated in the mode passion he takes the position of Brahma and creates progeny. The living entities who are born from Brahma, the grandfather of everyone, expand themselves in families of Aryans and brahmanas. In this world of duality, however, living entities who are covered and thrown under the control of the external energy naturally become envious. This enviousness further creates pride, illusion, greed, anger, and lust and induces the living entities to dance frantically in aversion to the Lord. At that time they forget both that they were born from Grandfather Brahma and the Lord's instructions in the Vedas.

"And on the platform of progress, if a living entity cultivates transcendental sound vibration and revives the process of remembering the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, he then achieves scientific spiritual knowledge. By this process, all anarthas are destroyed and he becomes situated in a supremely auspicious position.

"The mood that arises when one is manipulating his senses is called vilasa, or enjoyment. The meaning of vairagya, or renunciation, is to become averse to the accumulation of sensual knowledge. The conditioned souls who are overwhelmed by the illusory energy of Hari become temporary enjoyers of this world under the control of Maya's covering and throwing potencies. But if such persons fortunately meet devotees who are constantly remembering Krsna, then they can give up insignificant material enjoyment and receive the opportunity to attain transcendental knowledge.

"Although due to forgetfulness of Krsna the perverted movement of the senses is considered temporary and adverse, when they are properly employed in eternal subjects their disease of transience is destroyed and they give up the desire to embrace such transient objects. Then that person appreciates the following verse from the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which is the mercy of Sri Sanatana and compiled by Srila Gopala Bhatta, the disciple of Tridandipada Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati, who was a servant of Sri Gauranga and born in an Andhra brahmana family.

 

 

grhita-visnu diksako

visnu-puja-paro narah

vaisnavo 'bhihito 'bhijnair

itaro 'smad avaisnavah

 

"One who is initiated into Sri Visnu's mantras and who is devoted to worshiping Lord Visnu is called a Vaisnava by those who are learned. One who is devoid of these practices in not a Vaisnava."

"Although the eternal living entity is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord, due to his indifference towards the eternal service of the Lord he is eligible for being controlled by Maya. When one tries to measure material objects with his sensual knowledge, he simply increases his enjoying propensity day after day. That he is eligible for achieving transcendental knowledge - this ancient memory he also often forgets. As a result of being covered and thrown and considering himself the enjoyer of this world, such a person has no power to discriminate between good and bad, rather he considers temporary and unreal subjects as permanent and favorable for his enjoyment."

The jiva is the eternal servant of Krsna because he "is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord", but before falling down he serves Him only in santa-rasa which in fact is not direct pure devotional service. As for the higher rasas, Srila Prabhupada says that the pure devotee can never forget Krsna and we cannot argue with that.

 

 

[Guruvani]

An official BBT website also rejects the fall theory.

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/philosophy2.htm#4

 

 

The jiva is the eternal servant of Krsna because he "is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord", but before falling down he serves Him only in santa-rasa which in fact is not direct pure devotional service. As for the higher rasas, Srila Prabhupada says that the pure devotee can never forget Krsna and we cannot argue with that.

[Guruvani]

So, it all boils down to our resident sleepervadi accusing ISKCON gurus,

the entire Gaudiya Matha, BBT scholars and a whole host of learned devotees of not understanding the siddhanta while SArva Gattah has it all figured out.

 

He is just a small voice talking out from the depths of misconception as so many learned devotees and scholars rejects his fall-from goloka thesis that he has plastered all over the internet.

[Guruvani]

I have spent several months in close association with Sivarama Swami (many years ago) and in my opinion he is 1st class.

I always guessed that he was not the type of person to spout off bogus fairytale siddhanta.

He is very serious and very grounded in the books.

I am glad to hear that he is not a party to the ISKCON fairytale gang.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I have spent several months in close association with Sivarama Swami (many years ago) and in my opinion he is 1st class.

I always guessed that he was not the type of person to spout off bogus fairytale siddhanta.

He is very serious and very grounded in the books.

.

 

I haven't seen Sivarama Swami for years also, so to help him understand the true facts, pass the following on to him and any other Swami or Guru friends you know prabhu.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

 

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

 

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

 

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

 

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

 

Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world"

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness

 

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

 

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

[Guruvani]

Sarva Gattah:

 

Read the books.

Your misconceptions would be resolved if you ever got around to reading the books of Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

You think you know better than BBT scholars, ISKCON gurus, Gaudiya Matha gurus and all the previous acharyas because you found some letter from Srila Prabhupada that you find easy to expoit with your bogus sleepervadi nonsense.

 

The Admin here should just censor your nonsense and put a stop to your foolish rant to confuse people with bogus concepts.

[Sarva gattah]

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand how we originally feel down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Here is Srila Prabhupada's response.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

 

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

 

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

 

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

 

Read this over and over again Guruvani, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand.

[Sarva gattah]

Read the previous post over and over again Guruvani, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. That DOES not mean all marginal living entities fall 'consciously' from Goloka.

 

Guruvani, you are right when you say Krishna's devotees never fall down because most never enter the material dream world and forget Krishna, that is their choice.

 

Most marginal living entities choose to never ever come here however, that is a choice, their is free will.

 

Thats the point Srila Prabhupada is making. Most devotees (75%) have always reamained aware of who they are and what their service is to Krishna and NEVER 'dream' of coming here to forget Krishna.

 

But once again, that is their choice. This is an important point to understand.