Is ISKCON philosophy outdated?

[Guruvani]

 

 

At the same time he clearly wanted to create a global movement to take over the world. Small groups were just the start.

 

I would have to see the words of Srila Prabhupada saying he wanted to take over the world.

 

How does the "take over the world" concept harmonize with his preaching that he wasn't out to convert the world but that everyone should follow the religion they believe in?

[bhagavad-gita]

This thread is a load of rubbish that has arisen out of one's weakness of heart and an undetermined mind to follow the instructions as given by Srila Prabhupada. It's unfortunate that you are finding fault with Srila Prabhupada's purports rather than your inability to follow them. I wish this thread be removed right away.

[passionate_freak]

 

That's a good reminder, friend!

 

Let us remember that we each have our free will (however minute) and we are part of the Cosmic Dance.

 

Also, as you say, despite any efforts on our part to approach Divinity, we can only gain entrance there by the invitation of Sri Guru.

 

 

Sure we need a Guru. But Guru is categorized in many forms such as: Shikshyak ( teacher) who teaches not to drink/smoke but drinks/smokes hem/herself, Acharya- one who teaches and applies the things self and GURU- puts us into the light picking us up from the darkness, means spiritual realms. A Guru is like a scholar who talks whole life about the same things. Consider a Ph.D holder, who if continues can extend his knowledge in few more subjects. And then comes SADGURU, who can teach and talk about anything with no interruption, it may be Ayurveda, Astrology, Sun Science, Tantra, Philosophy, science, scriptures, soul, universe and holds the authority over the universe and iw with the ability to relate anyone to the divinity ...i mean anything. So our search must be limited to Sadguru only. Still, there are more catogories of Gurus like Para Guru, Pram Guru, Paratpar Guru, Paaramesthi Guru etc...each having own significant. We all are being fooled by so called Gurus around, be it in the name of YOga, be it in the name of Tantram, philosophy and so on.It's why no one ever could realize the divinity...

 

Do you agree?

 

regards

[Kulapavana]

 

I would have to see the words of Srila Prabhupada saying he wanted to take over the world.

 

How does the "take over the world" concept harmonize with his preaching that he wasn't out to convert the world but that everyone should follow the religion they believe in?

 

Morning Walk, March 15, 1974, Vrndavana

 

 

Prabhupada: Arcye visnau... (break) ...when it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna..." (laughter) We want that. Marching with military band, "Hare Krsna." You maintain this idea. Is it not good?

 

Hrdayananda: Yes, Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: When there will be military march of Krsna conscious soldiers. Anyone who does not believe in Krsna, "Blam!" (laughter) Yes. The same process as the Mohammedans did, with sword and Koran, we'll have to do that. "Do you believe in Krsna or not?No, sir.Blam!" Finished. (laughter, Prabhupada laughs) What do you think, Madhudvisa Maharaja? Is that all right?

Madhudvisa: Yes

---------------------------

 

I have heard from persons who were part of this conversation, or were in the audience. The general impression was that Srila Prabhupada was speaking about the future, when the movement becomes big and strong.

[Kulapavana]

 

Caitanya Caritamrita. Madhya 22.107.

 

nitya-siddha krsna-prema ‘sädhya’ kabhu naya

çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

“Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens."

 

... so there is no contradiction. The Sastra explains that in our original position we have Krsna prema. In santa rasa (that is our original position in your opinion )can we find Krsna prema?

 

you need to read the earlier verses to understand the context. like this one (Madhya 22.105):

 

TRANSLATION

"'When transcendental devotional service, by which love for Kṛṣṇa is attained, is executed by the senses, it is called sādhana-bhakti, or the regulative discharge of devotional service. Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice.'

PURPORT

This verse is found in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.2). Because living entities are minute, atomic parts and parcels of the Lord, devotional service is already present within them in a dormant condition. Devotional service begins with śravaṇaḿ kīrtanam, hearing and chanting. When a man is sleeping, he can be awakened by sound vibration; therefore every conditioned soul should be given the chance to hear the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanted by a pure Vaiṣṇava. One who hears the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra thus vibrated is awakened to spiritual consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this way one's mind gradually becomes purified, as stated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu (ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. 20.12]). When the mind is purified, the senses are also purified. Instead of using the senses for sense gratification, the awakened devotee employs the senses in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the process by which dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened.

----------------------

 

so our original position is certainly not krsna-prema, but merely a POTENTIAL (dormant state) for devotion.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani pr!

 

Caitanya Caritamrita. Madhya 22.107.

 

You wanted sastric evidences...

 

Caitanya Caritamrita. Madhya 22.107.

 

nitya-siddha krsna-prema ‘sädhya’ kabhu naya

çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

 

“Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens."

 

... so there is no contradiction. The Sastra explains that in our original position we have Krsna prema. In santa rasa (that is our original position in your opinion )can we find Krsna prema?

We have to remember that the brahmajyoti is the impersonal form of Krishna. He has two forms - personal and impersonal.

 

Shanta-rasa is love of Krishna in his impersonal form or the personal form if it reaches to Paramatma realization. There are two forms of shanta-rasa; impersonal realization and Paramatma realization which are both forms of Krishna.

 

Even though love of Krishna is eternally in the heart it cannot "AWAKEN" without the seed of devotional service which is recieved from the spiritual master.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.151

 

brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

 

SYNONYMS

brahmāṇḍa bhramite — wandering in this universe; kona — some; bhāgyavān — most fortunate; jīva — living being; guru — of the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa — of Kṛṣṇa; prasāde — by the mercy; pāya — gets; bhakti-latā — of the creeper of devotional service; bīja — the seed.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.

 

So, without the seed of DEVOTIONAL SERVICE the Krishna-prema in the heart of the jiva cannot awaken and blossom to it's fullest potential.

 

Without the seed of devotional service, all the soul can understand is love of the impersonal form of Krishna in shanta-rasa.

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

The spiritual master can plant the seed of a higher kind of Krishna-prema in a higher form of devotional service.

 

Shanta-rasa is NEUTRAL love of Krishna.

The bhakti-lata-bija allows active, positive and progressive love of Krishna in one of the higher rasas.

[Guruvani]

 

Morning Walk, March 15, 1974, Vrndavana

 

 

Prabhupada: Arcye visnau... (break) ...when it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna..." (laughter) We want that. Marching with military band, "Hare Krsna." You maintain this idea. Is it not good?

 

Hrdayananda: Yes, Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: When there will be military march of Krsna conscious soldiers. Anyone who does not believe in Krsna, "Blam!" (laughter) Yes. The same process as the Mohammedans did, with sword and Koran, we'll have to do that. "Do you believe in Krsna or not?No, sir.Blam!" Finished. (laughter, Prabhupada laughs) What do you think, Madhudvisa Maharaja? Is that all right?

Madhudvisa: Yes

---------------------------

 

I have heard from persons who were part of this conversation, or were in the audience. The general impression was that Srila Prabhupada was speaking about the future, when the movement becomes big and strong.

I think we need to be able to differentiate when Srila Prabhupada was joking and having fun and when he was being serious.

 

That was humour, not serious talking.

 

Srila Prabhupada said many times that people should follow their own religion.

 

If anyone thinks he was seriously proposing that Hare Krishna devotees should start killing all non-devotees then they need their head examined and probably need professional counseling.

 

This joke doesn't correspond the the general teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The weapon of Mahaprabhu was his beauty.

Similarly, its the beauty of the KC movement is the weapon of ISKCON, not guns.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 3.52 purport

 

In other descents the Lord sometimes used weapons to defeat the demoniac, but in this age the Lord subdues them with His all-attractive figure as Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī explains that His beauty is His astra, or weapon, to subdue the demons.

The weapon of the Sankirtan movement is beauty. That is the Gaudiya heritage - not violence.

 

This notion that Hare Krishnas are supposed to kill all the infidels is stupid and illegal.

 

Srila Prabhupada was joking.

He had a sense of humour too!

[suchandra]

 

Srila Prabhupada was joking.

He had a sense of humour too!

 

Somehow I'm missing Guruvani prabhu speaking about the ongoing privatization of ISKCON and how this is opposed to a movement which is meant to forward Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Movement and to spread the rays of the benediction moon. Without the sanctioning of the great acaryas turning the Sankirtan Mission into a private business, how to expect that this movement is able to deliver the fallen souls and reveal the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Already we see that ISKCON leaders admit, nobody wants to join anymore -

Nobody wants to join "the prime benediction for humanity at large" and "the ocean of transcendental bliss and ecstasy", anandambudhi-vardhanam?

Could it be that all these qualities have already left the ISKCON private org?

 

cheto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha--davagni-nirvapanam

shreyah-kairava-chandrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamritaswadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krishna-sankirtanam

Glory to the Sri-Krsna-Sankirtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This sankirtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.

[Guruvani]

 

 

I have heard from persons who were part of this conversation, or were in the audience. The general impression was that Srila Prabhupada was speaking about the future, when the movement becomes big and strong.

 

ISKCON will never become "big and strong" if they keep repeating outdated and comical remarks of Srila Prabhupada as if it is ISKCON doctrine.

 

In its current condition ISKCON will never become big and strong even without repeating that kind of stuff that I am sure Srila Prabhupada would not have wanted broadcast on international media.

 

Srila Prabhupada was laughing all through that statement.

It was a joke.

 

Anyone that takes it seriously is suffering from a severe cult mentality.

 

Mainstream?

Yet, kill all the infidels?

 

This is ridiculous.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I prefer the term "classic" to "outdated". Srila Prabhupada's humor is timeless.

 

If ISKCON wants to become "big and strong", it better eat its shak (spinnach)!!! Of course, honoring some tulasi leaves is very beneficial as well.

 

Here's to "Prabhupada Classic" as opposed to "New and Improved Prabhupada with 20% Extra Obfuscation"!!

 

 

ISKCON will never become "big and strong" if they keep repeating outdated and comical remarks of Srila Prabhupada as if it is ISKCON doctrine.

 

In its current condition ISKCON will never become big and strong even without repeating that kind of stuff that I am sure Srila Prabhupada would not have wanted broadcast on international media.

 

Srila Prabhupada was laughing all through that statement.

It was a joke.

 

Anyone that takes it seriously is suffering from a severe cult mentality.

 

Mainstream?

Yet, kill all the infidels?

 

This is ridiculous.

[theist]

 

Prabhupada very much aimed at the masses. Just read his introduction to Bhagavatam. I doubt very much he wanted to simply spread Gaudiya Vaishnavism - he was thinking about creating a universal religion. It is quite obvious especially in his early writings.

 

The way I hear it, yes he was speaking to the whole world and at the same time giving Gaudiya Vaisnavaism. It is no secret plan. The Universal religion is Bhakti-yoga centered around the chanting of the Holy Names of God in which there are no limitations due to cultural or religious affiliation, gender, birth caste, rich or poor, intelligent or simpleton, child or old man on the death bed or even species. Absolutely universal. Is this somehow now a secret plan?

 

Now of those that wish to take to God consciousness (Vaisnavism in particular) in a more intimate way he also presented the specifics of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Afterall he is from that land himself so naturally he directed his students there also.

 

So in this way he was teaching on different levels simulataneously according to the level of those listening. We all plug in at our own level in accord with our desire and adhikar.

 

If someone just wants to present Krsna consciousness in a strict manner according to Hari Bhakta Vilasa that is all right but it lacks the universal vision of Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.

 

It is offensive to think Srila Prabhupada wanted to take over the world. The devotee of Krsna is one who has given up his desire to control anything and is happy in his service to the Supreme Controller. He made clear many many times that he wanted to be free of Iskcon concerns even and just spend his days in writing and personal bhajan.

 

Clearly he did want Krsna conscious to take over the world. But that is another thing entirely from himself wanting to control the world. Lord Caitanya showed the same desire to inundate the world in Krsna consciousness.

[Kulapavana]

 

ISKCON will never become "big and strong" if they keep repeating outdated and comical remarks of Srila Prabhupada as if it is ISKCON doctrine.

 

Based on the comments of Subala Prabhu and Hridayananda Maharaja (which I have heard personally) these words were spoken only half in jest. Because these words of Srila Prabhupada were so out of place, some devotees seeked to clarify them later and asked SP about it. Supposedly (based on Subala's account) SP said that killing was only for truly big demons, like Mao or other asuras, when the movement becomes very powerful.

[Kulapavana]

 

Clearly he did want Krsna conscious to take over the world. But that is another thing entirely from himself wanting to control the world.

 

Yes, I agree. It was simply his vision, for what (at that time) seemed like a not too distant future.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes, I agree. It was simply his vision, for what (at that time) seemed like a not too distant future.

 

It looked bright back in them days.

Now, ISKCON is all about about a gang of saffron elite trying to gather up enough followers to support his jet-set lifestyle so he can be a career ISKCON guru.

ISKCON will never see the light of day with it's present small-time guru operation.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavism has a bright future around the the world but not under the flag of the ISKCON cult.

 

There will be more learned and high-class Indian Gaudiyas coming to the forefront as ISKCON continues to lose it's monopoly on in the western world.

 

Indian gurus will always do better than western devotees.

People just like Indian gurus when they get into Eastern religion.

 

Mahaprabhu especially wanted Vaishnavas from India to preach all over the world.

I would never have accepted a western guru if I hadn't got in during the time when I could get an official initiation in ISKCON as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't expect to make it back to Godhead in this lifetime, but if I could be born in a nice Vaishnava family in India and become a decent devotee I would feel this life to be quite a success.

[Acyutananda das]

Dear Guruvani pr!

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa. According to the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this extremly concentrated love for Krishna is characterized by mamanta (possessivenes) or madiyatamaya-bhava - the feeling of "You are mine". This is only possible in personal relationship. In the shanta rasa one only have the tadiyatamaya bhava - the feeling of "I'm Yours". So there's no prema in shanta rasa. But the verse speaks about prema. So our original position is a personal relationship (not shanta rasa) with the Lord.

 

ys, Acyutananda das

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It's like that movie "Groundhog Day"!!!

 

I'm going to wake up each day and find that I'm stuck in shanta rasa!!!

 

Well, it could be worse. I could be stuck in Santa Rosa.

 

 

Dear Guruvani pr!

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa. According to the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this extremly concentrated love for Krishna is characterized by mamanta (possessivenes) or madiyatamaya-bhava - the feeling of "You are mine". This is only possible in personal relationship. In the shanta rasa one only have the tadiyatamaya bhava - the feeling of "I'm Yours". So there's no prema in shanta rasa. But the verse speaks about prema. So our original position is a personal relationship (not shanta rasa) with the Lord.

 

ys, Acyutananda das

[theist]

 

It's like that movie "Groundhog Day"!!!

 

I'm going to wake up each day and find that I'm stuck in shanta rasa!!!

 

Well, it could be worse. I could be stuck in Santa Rosa.

 

Hehe

 

You guys can put down santa rasa all you like but for me it's a lofty goal, a safe glorious state where the evils of birth and death can't reach me and I'll be free to move higher if I like without all the static of the material conception constantly interuppting and harrasing me.

 

I've been to Santa Rosa and it is certainly no santa-rasa.

[Guruvani]

 

Dear Guruvani pr!

 

So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard.

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa. According to the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this extremly concentrated love for Krishna is characterized by mamanta (possessivenes) or madiyatamaya-bhava - the feeling of "You are mine". This is only possible in personal relationship. In the shanta rasa one only have the tadiyatamaya bhava - the feeling of "I'm Yours". So there's no prema in shanta rasa. But the verse speaks about prema. So our original position is a personal relationship (not shanta rasa) with the Lord.

 

ys, Acyutananda das

 

Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanya says that devotees in shanta-rasa have FULL attachment to Krishna. How can their be attachment without love?

They LOVE the impersonal form of Krishna.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.215

 

svarga, mokṣa kṛṣṇa-bhakta 'naraka' kari' māne

kṛṣṇa-niṣṭhā, tṛṣṇā-tyāga — śāntera 'dui' guṇe

 

SYNONYMS

svarga — the heavenly kingdom; mokṣa — liberation from material bondage; kṛṣṇa-bhakta — a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa; naraka kari' māne — considers as good as hell; kṛṣṇa-niṣṭhā — being fixed at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa; tṛṣṇā-tyāga — giving up all material desires; śāntera — of one on the neutrality platform; dui guṇe — two transcendental qualities.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"When a devotee is situated on the platform of śānta-rasa, he desires neither elevation to the heavenly planets nor liberation. These are the results of karma and jñāna, and the devotee considers them no better than hell. A person situated on the śānta-rasa platform manifests the two transcendental qualities of detachment from all material desires and full attachment to Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

ISKCON gurus cannot defeat the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

Mahaprabhu says that the constitutional position of the soul is realized in shanta-rasa.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.219

 

kevala 'svarūpa-jñāna' haya śānta-rase

'pūrṇaiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna' adhika haya dāsye

 

SYNONYMS

kevala — only; svarūpa-jñāna — knowledge of the constitutional position of one's self; haya — there is; śānta-rase — in the mellow of neutrality; pūrṇa-aiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna — knowledge of the full opulences of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; adhika — greater; haya — becomes; dāsye — in the transcendental mellow of servitude.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"On the platform of śānta-rasa, one realizes only his constitutional position. But when one is raised to the platform of dāsya-rasa, he better understands the full opulence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

Nothing can change what Mahaprabhu has said.

Krishna-prema is eternally established in the heart on the basic platform of shanta-rasa.

 

Even the gopis have shanta-rasa.

The cowherd boys also have shanta-rasa.

 

Shanta-rasa is included in all the higher rasas.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.217

 

ei dui guṇa vyāpe saba bhakta-jane

ākāśera 'śabda'-guṇa yena bhūta-gaṇe

 

SYNONYMS

ei dui — these two; guṇa — transcendental qualities; vyāpe — expand; saba bhakta-jane — in the lives of all devotees; ākāśera — of the sky; śabda-guṇa — the quality of sound; yena — like; bhūta-gaṇe — other

material elements.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"These two qualities of the śānta stage spread through the lives of all devotees. They are like the quality of sound in the sky. Sound vibration is found in all material elements.

 

 

PURPORT

The two qualities of śānta-rasa mentioned in verse 215 are present in all kinds of devotees, whether they are in dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vātsalya-rasa or madhura-rasa. The example of sound is given herein. Sound not only exists in the sky, or ether, but it is also present in air, fire, water and earth. This is a scientific explanation of devotional service. Just as sound is present in all material elements, the qualities found in śānta-rasa are present in all devotees, whether they are on the platform of dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vātsalya-rasa or madhura-rasa.

 

 

These ISKCON gurus need to read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

But, they are too busy with external things to study the books properly.

 

They cannot defeat these shastric conclusions with their myths.

[suchandra]

 

These ISKCON gurus need to read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

But, they are too busy with external things to study the books properly.

 

They cannot defeat these shastric conclusions with their myths.

 

 

There is surely good basic approach in your posts but somehow things quickly tend to divert into intellectual/spiritual meaninglessness.

I would greatly appreciate to have more sastrical niveau and content when taking the time to surf to the contributions of a senior Prabhupada disciple.

 

 

I am receiving many astounding letters regarding the new propaganda work by our four Sannyasis. I do not know why these boys are doing such nonsense and wasting their time. I received their letter from Detroit about a week ago and I have replied them duly intimating therein that instead of wasting time in that way let them work constructively. Please advise them on my behalf not to waste time in such fruitless endeavor. I hope I shall receive their reply by the grace of Krsna in the meantime.

Sunday, 13 September, 1970

 

 

Calcutta, 13 September 1970

"Yes, I am so glad that your center is doing so well and all the devotees are now appreciating the presence of their Spiritual Master by following His instructions although He is no longer physically present--this is the right spirit.

Please keep me informed of your activities regularly.

 

Hope this will meet you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami"

[Kulapavana]

 

There's no Krshna-prema in shanta rasa.

 

Even if that is true, there is no krsna-prema without first achieving shanta-rasa. Thus there is no krsna-prema without shanta-rasa, which is a basis for all rasas, and which is an integral element of every rasa.

 

It is like combining colors, with shanta rasa being the most basic color. Each subsequent higher rasa only adds to the existing base. Thus there can be no dasya rasa without the base of shanta rasa, and no vatsalya rasa without dasya rasa being there first. Without achieving a true shanta rasa nobody can achieve any higher rasas. Jumping to madhurya rasa without first achieving the lower rasas is a complete joke, lost on many western Vaishnavas.

[theist]

 

Jumping to madhurya rasa without first achieving the lower rasas is a complete joke, lost on many western Vaishnavas.

 

 

Well let's not single out "western" Vaisnava's. Sahajism showed up in India first.

[Kulapavana]

 

Well let's not single out "western" Vaisnava's. Sahajism showed up in India first.

 

actually, most western devotees know nothing about Sahaja philosophy - it is simply a bad name for them, used to denote cheap imitation of devotion and debauchery performed in the name of devotional service. however, by that definition all of us were sahajyas at one time (and some of us still are). yet the real Sahaja philosophy is quite a bit different and much more benign then what most devotees imagine about it.

 

the Christian concept of Pharisees is actually what we are talking about here: imitation of devotion to God, and using scriptures / religious arguments for materialistic pursuits.

[theist]

 

actually, most western devotees know nothing about Sahaja philosophy - it is simply a bad name for them, used to denote cheap imitation of devotion and debauchery performed in the name of devotional service. however, by that definition all of us were sahajyas at one time (and some of us still are). yet the real Sahaja philosophy is quite a bit different and much more benign then what most devotees imagine about it.

 

the Christian concept of Pharisees is actually what we are talking about here: imitation of devotion to God, and using scriptures / religious arguments for materialistic pursuits.

 

True. I don't know the details of any specific sahajiya philosophy myself. Imitation seems to be a symptom of the mixed devotee either western or eastern.

 

It seems to me the only safe position is to follow the teaching of Lord Caitanya and not consider oneself to be a servant of Krsna but rather a servant of the servant of Krsna so many times removed. It is hard to keep up a pretense of such humilitry for any length of time.

 

What you said about santa rasa really resonates with me. It seeems highly unlikely that anyone who cannot appreciate the presence of the Lord within oneself and in others is going to be developed in madhurya rasa with the same Supreme Person.

[sanatan]

 

There will be more learned and high-class Indian Gaudiyas coming to the forefront as ISKCON continues to lose it's monopoly on in the western world.

 

Indian gurus will always do better than western devotees.

People just like Indian gurus when they get into Eastern religion.

 

Mahaprabhu especially wanted Vaishnavas from India to preach all over the world.

I would never have accepted a western guru if I hadn't got in during the time when I could get an official initiation in ISKCON as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't expect to make it back to Godhead in this lifetime, but if I could be born in a nice Vaishnava family in India and become a decent devotee I would feel this life to be quite a success.

 

I don't think that's necessarily true about western Vaisnavas...the western zonal acharyas of the immediate post-Srila Prabhupada period attracted many, many new followers.

 

These particular individuals had it all to blow, and they blew it, but new disciples are coming continually to others actively preaching.

 

Recently two well-known American-born ISKCON gurus were here. I had no motivation to drive 10 minutes to hear either of them speak.

 

Absolutely no animosity or ill-feeling involved on my part, just not interested.

 

However, when Bhakti Caru Swami visits, I always make at least a couple of classes. IMO, he exemplifies what you referred to...a "learned and high-class Indian Gaudiya".

[Sarva gattah]

 

It's like that movie "Groundhog Day"!!!

 

I'm going to wake up each day and find that I'm stuck in shanta rasa!!!

 

Well, it could be worse. I could be stuck in Santa Rosa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The material world is like a day dream