Is ISKCON philosophy outdated?

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The material world is like a day dream

 

No its not.

Pradhan is not a daydream.

Maya-shakti is not a daydream.

The Viraja is not a daydream.

 

The material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world.

Reflections in water are not daydreams.

They are real reflections.

The Moon reflected in the ocean is a real reflection.

It is not any daydream.

 

The only daydream going on is the fall-from-goloka fairytale.

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The material world is like a day dream

 

 

 

Here is what Srila Prabhupada says about the material world in the introduction of Bhagavad-gita As It Is.

 

 

This material manifestation takes place at a certain interval, stays for a while and then disappears. Such are the workings of prakṛti. But this cycle is working eternally. Therefore prakṛti is eternal; it is not false. The Lord refers to this as "My prakṛti."

 

Krishna's prakriti is not your daydream.

You think mighty highly of yourself if you think Krishna's prakriti is YOUR daydream.

 

Daydream?

I don't see Srila Prabhupada saying that anywhere or at anytime in his books.

 

You invented this daydream idea.

It has nothing to do with the teachings of shastra.

[theist]

i

tathabhiniveso 'yam

yad guneshv artha-drig-vacah

yatha manorathah svapnah

sarvam aindriyakam mrisha

 

SYNONYMS

vitatha—fruitless; abhinivesah—the conception; ayam—this; yat—which; guneshu—in the modes of material nature; artha—as a fact; drik-vacah—the seeing and talking of; yatha—just as; manorathah—a mental concoction (daydream); svapnah—a dream; sarvam—everything; aindriyakam—produced by the senses; mrisha—false.

 

TRANSLATION SB 7.2.48

It is fruitless to see and talk of the material modes of nature and their resultant so-called happiness and distress as if they were factual. When the mind wanders during the day and a man begins to think himself extremely important, or when he dreams at night and sees a beautiful woman enjoying with him, these are merely false dreams. Similarly, the happiness and distress caused by the material senses should be understood to be meaningless.

 

PURPORT

The happiness and distress derived from the activities of the material senses are not actual happiness and distress. Therefore Bhagavad-gita speaks of happiness that is transcendental to the material conception of life (sukham atyantikam yat tad buddhi-grahyam atindriyam [bg. 6.21]). When our senses are purified of material contamination, they become atindriya, transcendental senses, and when the transcendental senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, Hrishikesa, one can derive real transcendental pleasure. Whatever distress or happiness we manufacture by mental concoction through the subtle mind has no reality, but is simply a mental concoction. One should therefore not imagine so-called happiness through mental concoction. Rather, the best course is to engage the mind in the service of the Lord, Hrishikesa, and thus feel real blissful life.

There is a Vedic statement apama-somam amrita abhuma apsarobhir viharama. With reference to such a conception, one wants to go to the heavenly planets to enjoy with the young girls there and drink soma-rasa. Such imaginary pleasure, however, has no value. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (7.23), antavat tu phalam tesham tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam: "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." Even if by fruitive activity or worship of the demigods one is elevated to the higher planetary systems for sense enjoyment, his situation is condemned in Bhagavad-gita as antavat, perishable. The happiness one enjoys in this way is like the pleasure of embracing a young woman in a dream; for some time it may be pleasing, but actually the basic principle is false. The mental concoctions of happiness and distress in this material world are compared to dreams because of their falseness. All thoughts of obtaining happiness by using the material senses have a false background and therefore have no meaning.

 

[Guruvani]

 

The mental concoctions of happiness and distress in this material world are compared to dreams because of their falseness.

The mental concoctions of happiness and distress are the dreams.

The material world is not our daydream.

 

Our dreaming is that we imagine that there is happiness and distress in this material world of Krishna's.

[theist]

 

The mental concoctions of happiness and distress are the dreams.

The material world is not our daydream.

 

Our dreaming is that we imagine that there is happiness and distress in this material world of Krishna's.

That is exactly what you have been arguing against without realizing it. Yes it's Krsna's illusory energy which is emanating from the mind of Maha-Vishnu as He lies in His yoga-nidra or mystic sleep. IOW's it's Vishnu's dream energy that we are dreaming we are a part of.

 

 

It's real...a real dream.

This material world is a product of the mahat-tattva, which is a state of the Lord's dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord's dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations. He can therefore bring everything under His transcendental control, and thus whenever and wherever He does appear, He does so in His fullness. SB 1.16.26 purport

Now rather you accept that we are originating from Vaikuntha or the the Brahmajyoti does not alter the fact that we are dreaming. The alternative is to accept the material body as the self.

[vmsunder]

Naturally - there are three major stages of bhakthi yoga

 

The Dwaita Margam - is the initial stage

The Visishtaadvaita Maargam - next stage

The Adwaitha Maargam - the ultimate result.

 

Sri Prabupadas philosophy is solely in line with Madhwa philosophy.

 

Dwaita maargam is for beginners - like explaining maths or science to mass thru stories - the stories and its characters are only containers and carriers of the truth - they themselve are not the truth.

 

Krisna and Goloka - are like this containers - one has to necessary go beyond the stories and seek the truth. if someone doesnt cross beyond the stories it defeats the very purpose of it.

 

Stories are for the beginners.

 

The next stage is Visishtaadvait - which Ramanuja, after a huge thought, introduced.

 

The God can not be belonging to human community alone - there are many unexplained mystries in the universe - we dont know them. and a person sitting in a planet controls the whole universe will look like beuractic nature of system which never exists. If God is somewhere then He can not be here, if He is herenow and he can not be with a form sitting somewhere.

 

It is like marriage and love, first the girl is the other person, then after marriage she becomes your wife you love her and she becomes part and parcel of your life, the more you love her the more u understand and unite at heart - then you become soulmate - that is Adwait - thats the reason in stories and in histories you notice many spouse feels the pain or happiness the other is encountering and even leave the world once their soulmate has departed(even western Romeo and juliet).

 

Thats the Third ultimate state is Adwaith - you dont see god as different from you. The god is not against or for the happenings in the world - it all happens on its own -thru the wheel of maya. He/She is least touched least bothered about it - infact its all a game of maya and He/She enjoys it thoroughly.

 

If God wanted he can correct the happenings in the whole world by wherever he is - with just a thot. No need of showing miracles and magics to prove his godliness as in the case of Krsna or Jesus. They are all realised souls thats all - yet those miracles are just a simple things infront of Yoga sidhdhies.

 

Thanks & regards

vmsunder

[Guruvani]

 

That is exactly what you have been arguing against without realizing it. Yes it's Krsna's illusory energy which is emanating from the mind of Maha-Vishnu as He lies in His yoga-nidra or mystic sleep. IOW's it's Vishnu's dream energy that we are dreaming we are a part of.

 

 

Now rather you accept that we are originating from Vaikuntha or the the Brahmajyoti does not alter the fact that we are dreaming. The alternative is to accept the material body as the self.

 

Wrong.

I am not contradicting myself.

You are not hearing what I am saying.

You are hearing what you want to hear.

 

The dream is that we can be happy in a temporary world.

We are not in Goloka dreaming we are in maya.

 

We are in the material world dreaming that we can be happy by some temporary arrangement.

 

This material world is not our daydream.

Our daydream is that we are the enjoyers of the material energy.

 

We are in "some corner" of the spiritual sky in a cloud of the Mahat-tattva.

We are not in Goloka dreaming we are enjoyers of maya.

 

The dream is that we think we can find happiness as the false enjoyers of the material energy.

 

You guys keep twisiting the words of Srila Prabhupada to support your bogus fall-from-theory but you can't prove your theory without twisting and distorting the meanings of Srila Prabhupada's words.

[suchandra]

 

Wrong.

I am not contradicting myself.

You are not hearing what I am saying.

You are hearing what you want to hear.

 

The dream is that we can be happy in a temporary world.

We are not in Goloka dreaming we are in maya.

 

We are in the material world dreaming that we can be happy by some temporary arrangement.

 

This material world is not our daydream.

Our daydream is that we are the enjoyers of the material energy.

 

We are in "some corner" of the spiritual sky in a cloud of the Mahat-tattva.

We are not in Goloka dreaming we are enjoyers of maya.

 

The dream is that we think we can find happiness as the false enjoyers of the material energy.

 

You guys keep twisiting the words of Srila Prabhupada to support your bogus fall-from-theory but you can't prove your theory without twisting and distorting the meanings of Srila Prabhupada's words.

This can only be explained without even refering to sastra by someone who is fully liberated from the material energy and is fully realized soul, jai Guruvani prabhu!

Although Srila Prabhupada was surely also a fully liberated Vaishnava, still in order to teach us he would always back up his explanations of the constitutional position of the living entity.

 

Prabhupada: Now the soul is in this body. Next time the soul is in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I think myself American. Next life, if I get a body of a dog, then I think myself dog, designate. According to the body I create my designations. But one has to become free from all designations. That is called liberated stage. This is own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material modes of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation. "I am American.I am Englishman.I am Hindu.I am Muslim.I am this.I am that." These are all designations. So real perfection of life is without designations. And that is the real constitutional position. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. Actually, position of the living entity (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for, to come to that transcendental position, without any designations. Our Krsna consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Krsna or God. That position is perfect (indistinct). And if one keeps himself in that designation-less position, always thinking of (indistinct) spiritual, as part and parcel of God, then next life he goes back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti. After quitting this body he does not come back again to take another material body. He takes spiritual body, or develops a spiritual body and goes back to home, back to Godhead, which means eternal, blissful life of knowledge. This Krsna consciousness movement is for that purpose. We are trying to bring all men..., beforehand I mentioned different divisions, to come to this position, always thinking that I am part and parcel of God. My real position is to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. The business of the finger is to serve the body. So long it is in normal condition, the finger is meant for serving the body. When the finger is painful or in abnormal condition it cannot serve the body. Similarly, the living entity, being part and parcel of God, when we cannot serve God that is his abnormal condition. And when he serves God that is his normal condition. That is designation-less position. That is our (indistinct).

 

Mensa member : That's very interesting. To my mind the nearest approach in the Christian religion is the Unitarian position, which I don't know if you (indistinct).

 

Prabhupada: Christian religion is practically, from the name it appears--Christian and "Krsnian". Original word of this "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christo".

 

Mensa member: Anointed.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. This "Christa" is Krsna.

 

Mensa member: From the Sanskrit?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsta is the popular word for Krsna. And Krsna is always anointed with tilaka. We follow this tilaka, Krsna has anointed, with this sandal pulp. So, so far I see, there is some very nearest relationship with this Christian and "Krsnia". Krsta means love, love of Godhead or love. We are teaching also the same philosophy. Try to... Not try. The love of Krsna is there in everyone's heart, but it is covered. And being covered, it is misplaced. We are loving our society, loving this body, loving our family, loving our kinsmen, or loving internationally human society. But this love is actually perverted reflection of real love of God. Because the love is not placed in the real place. Therefore we are being frustrated in love. Just like in our country Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very much. But at the last moment the countrymen shot him down. He was shot down by his own countrymen. The love was paid by shotting him and he lost his life. There are many instances.

 

Mensa member: Socrates, Christ, plenty.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. So here the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree it is simply waste of time. If you pour water on the root then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your, automatically your love is distributed to everyone. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country... Just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians they put their love in God there will be no more fighting. Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje. That is first-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God. And as soon he becomes a lover of God... Just like I am Indian, but I have come to western countries to teach love of God. It is not that I am satisfied only in myself that I love God, that's all right. But due to my love to God I love others also, because I am trying to teach them to love God, the same philosophy. So if people take seriously this movement, how to love God, then human society will be first-class.

 

Mensa member: May I suggest you've already made one contribution from India which is almost the antithesis, and corroborate your suggestion about pouring water on the root. We do get leaves from India, we pour water on them and we make that delicious drink, tea, which is one of those drinks which are used for inculcating the brotherhood of man.

 

Prabhupada: That's all right but do you think it is natural to pour water on the leaves?

 

Mensa member: Well, why not then, that for leaves, water's natural.

 

Prabhupada: No. If you pour water on the leaves, but you don't water on the root, it will dry up. If you put food on your nose, on your eyes, the eyes will be blind and the nostril will be suffocated, but if you put in the proper place, in the stomach, the energy will be distributed.

 

Mensa member: You know that's just an analogy.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. This is natural. Similarly, if God is the root of everything, as we understand from Vedanta-sutra. God means the original root of everything. Janmady asya yatah. The description of Absolute Truth, of God is there in the Vedanta-sutra. The first aphorism is, "What is God?" Athato brahma-jijnasa, inquiry about God. The next aphorism is "God is that which is the root of everything, from which everything emanates." That is the perfect definition of God, the origin of everything. So the same example as God, that the root is the origin of the whole tree.

 

Mensa member: The seed is the origin of the whole tree, if I may say.

 

Prabhupada: How you can be origin because you are the effect?

 

Devotee: The seed.

 

Prabhupada: Huh?

 

Syamasundara: The seed.

 

Prabhupada: The seed. Yes. The seed is described in the Bhagavad-gita: bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. Everything that is living, the root or the seed is nonsense. The seed is God. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. Just like the rose tree, it has got the seed, but wherefrom this seed comes? (guests entering room) Come on. Hare Krsna. Give him another... Seed, original seed is God. Your theory of seed is very nice but the original seed of everything is God, the cause of all causes. In the Brahma-samhita it is said,

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

 

Karanam. Karana means cause, cause of all causes, seed of all seeds. There are different seeds.

 

Mensa member: Causa causam. (Latin)

 

Prabhupada: Ah, cause of all causes.

 

Devotee: Is that Latin?

 

Mensa member: Yes.

 

Devotee: It's similar.

 

Prabhupada: What is that?

 

Mensa member: A Latin legal phrase: causa causam, the cause of the cause.

 

Prabhupada: So God is cause of all causes. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is explicitly said,

 

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

 

"I am the original source of everything. Everything is emanating from Me." Iti matva, understanding like this, budha. Budha means those who are conversant, thoroughly in knowledge. Iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava samanvitah, in ecstasy, "Oh, here is the original cause of all causes." So in this way those who are advanced in knowledge, budha, they engage themselves in the service of the original cause of all causes. He's the cause of all causes, but He has no cause. That is God. Anadir adir govindam. He has no cause, but He's the cause of all life. That is God. Just like I am the effect, my father is the cause. Similarly, my grandfather is the cause of my father. My grandfather is the effect of the cause of great-grandfather. You go on searching out, searching out. So when you find out the original cause, that is God. That is the definition of God.

 

Guest: (indistinct) ...prime mover (indistinct). What is the necessity for a first cause? Would you agree with that?

 

Mensa member: Well, I think it's inherent in your definition of something that's omnipotent, that it's very like saying it's necessary to have no beginning in order to have no end. It's really a concept. Whether it exists or not it doesn't matter.

 

Guest: Yes. Then even negatives imply imitation. If something has only positive attributes, it's limited in, to exclude negative attributes. Or is that just a...

 

Mensa member: Well no, if something has all attributes, the only cause or call them to be caused, positive or negative because we have a tendency to want to think in terms of dichotomies, good and bad, whereas, really if you're a scientist you say this exists. It's only when morals come in, you say some things are good and some things are bad, and you start making antinomies. Really your Godhead would contain all those things, and to Him there's no such thing as good or evil, but to Him they are all of value. It's man who saw the good and evil.

 

Guest: I wasn't particularly thinking of the good and evil. I was simply thinking of negative attributes.

 

Mensa member: Well, I'm sorry, I don't know quite what you mean, unless you define the negative attribute, I'm not quite sure what it is.

 

Guest: Not beginning.

 

Mensa member: Well that, with good respect, I think, doesn't really follow because there're some things that don't have opposites or negatives although (in) nature. This is what I say that there are certain categories of things to which if somebody said, "Now what's the opposite of that?" You'd have to say, "There isn't an opposite," because it isn't the sort of thing to have an opposite.

 

Guest: So you would accept the problem is variety?

 

Mensa member: Well, it's not an argument, it's a postulate. I don't accept it. I mean, you have to accept it if you're going to... You know the (indistinct), so to speak. You can't have it half way.

 

Prabhupada: This word positive and negative. Just like the sun-the backside is the negative and the front side is the positive, light and darkness.

 

Mensa member: Well the sun doesn't have a backside of darkness. It's light all round.

 

Prabhupada: I mean to say, in relationship with the sun, the planet, the planet, in the front side there is light. In the backside there is darkness. The darkness is the effect of the light. Where the light is absent there is darkness.

 

Mensa member: Only to an observer. If there's no observer there, there's no difference between light and dark.

 

Prabhupada: No, this is the actual position. Just like this is sun, but this side is light, this side is darkness. So light and darkness, two opposite elements. But it is due to the same cause. Absence of light is darkness. And presence of light is light.

 

Mensa member: Or I say there are some things that have those dichotomies and others don't.

 

Prabhupada: So actually the cause is one. But in different position, one side is light, one side is darkness. Therefore the cause cannot be different. The cause is one. But under different position it appears, "This is light.This is darkness." So bad, which you consider bad, that is also caused by the Supreme Cause. In the Supreme there is no good or bad. Everything is absolute. Just like the sun is always light, but, in relationship with sun, the planet, one side is dark, one side is light. So black means that is also caused by the light, absence of light, that is black, dark.

 

Mensa member: With respect, it's not caused by the light. It's the absence of light.

 

Prabhupada: Absence, that I'm saying. It is also indirectly, the cause is the light.

 

Mensa member: No, because your illustration you gave of the light of the sun falling on one side and making that light, on the other side dark. But you can also have a body which is in the complete absence of any light anyway so there won't be any differentiation.

 

Prabhupada: No. There is light. The light is now visible. Light is there. Just like we say that our relationship with God is there. One is conscious. Another is unconscious. Otherwise God consciousness is there. Therefore any process that awakens that consciousness, that is perfect process. The consciousness is there. That is stated in Caitanya-caritamrta, an authorized book. Nitya siddha krsna bhakti.... This God consciousness is not something artificial. The God consciousness is there. Just like these European boys and girls, they're now devotees of Krsna. Not that artificially we have imposed this Krsna consciousness. The Krsna consciousness was there, but under certain process of treatment that has been awakened.

 

Mensa member: That's why I think it's better to accept that as it is rather than make analogies which are dangerous.

 

Prabhupada: I may make analogy or not analogy but the thing is that Krsna consciousness is there but it is covered. As soon as its covering is taken away, it is uncovered, the original position comes out.

 

full conversation

[theist]

 

Wrong.

I am not contradicting myself.

You are not hearing what I am saying.

You are hearing what you want to hear.

 

The dream is that we can be happy in a temporary world.

We are not in Goloka dreaming we are in maya.

 

We are in the material world dreaming that we can be happy by some temporary arrangement.

 

This material world is not our daydream.

Our daydream is that we are the enjoyers of the material energy.

 

We are in "some corner" of the spiritual sky in a cloud of the Mahat-tattva.

We are not in Goloka dreaming we are enjoyers of maya.

 

The dream is that we think we can find happiness as the false enjoyers of the material energy.

 

You guys keep twisiting the words of Srila Prabhupada to support your bogus fall-from-theory but you can't prove your theory without twisting and distorting the meanings of Srila Prabhupada's words.

 

You still don't get it and I won't waste anymore time on you. I am not even taking a side in the fall theory debate. As I have said this is a separate issue. Hundreds of Prabhupada quotes are available and many have been presented to you and still you cannot admit you are wrong.

 

For anyone else; The material varieties in the material world are caused by the soul's imaginative and whimsical attempt to enjoy separately from Krsna. This example is given to us in the form of the shining lotus stem of Lord Brahma. What the lotus is composed of is the subtle desires that were held by the embodied souls at the time of the previous devastation and are now reappearing in the new creation.

 

Without the whimsical (dreaming) desires of the wayward living entities there would not be a material manifestation at all...not even one blade of grass. Krsna has no personal need for the material world. So it is based on the dreams of living entities trying to be the prime enjoyer. What is based on subtle dreams is also dream matter. For instance, aman may desire to build a huge skyscraper building. That desire is a dream which represents his need to be seen as a big man. So his desire to be a big man is a dream of the mind and the specific plan to accomplish this is by building a skyscraper is a dream of under the influence of intelligence. When he starts to build the building in gross matter he is just solidifying the same dream into a more external level where it can be perceived by the gross senses. Remember gross matter itself is a product of subtle matter and is therefore dream energy vibtating at a frequency that makes it perceiveable to a denser form of senses.

 

Everything you perceive in this field is a dream until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of is innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still dreaming.

 

The best analogy is a lucid dreamer. A lucid dreamer is someone who while in the midst of a dream realizes he is dreaming and the drteasm body his mind created for participating in the dream is not his real self. The dream body still exists for a time after he realizes his identity apart from the dream body because dream matter is real. This is where we part company with the impersonalists. It is real...a real dream.

 

It is so clearly taught by Srila Prabhupada that it is mind boggling how anyone cannot see this.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Where I come from, the word dream has its root in the activity done while ones physical body is at rest. Day or Night. We may experience a dream.

 

The difference between the perceptual experience of the dream state, for most people, even lucid dreamers, is vastly different from their day to day waking experience on the physical 3D dimension of the earthly loka, and thus easily identified as a dream.

 

The simple analogy is that it is something that is done while sleeping, and certain things may occur to our personal body in a dream that has no bearing on our personal body upon awakening.

 

So if we can perceive, in our own lives, the experience of wanting to enjoy separately from Sri Krsna, then this is a sure sign that we are becoming aware that we are ignorant of what we are assured is our most blissful and constitutional position.

 

And that ignorance is analagous to being asleep, while the sudden awareness of it is like becoming aware of being in a dream.

 

But the material world is quite real, and eternal. Even if it is simply a dream for Maha Visnu.

 

Since we can be present within his dream with full awareness of who he is, and with full awareness of having a confidential and loving relationship with his personal servants, such an acheived state must be considered to be like being AWAKE. NOT DREAMING OF SEPERATE MATERIAL DESIRES AND EXPERIENCING THE RESULTANT PROCESS OF MENTALLY CONCOCTED SPECULATIONS. AWAKE. While geographically situalted in Sri Visnu's dreamscape.

 

All glories to Maha Visnu's sublime dream of pleasing his beloved.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

The dreamer theory says that we are all just dreaming that we are here in the material world when actually we are not.

They think that since we are dreaming all we need is for somebody to shake us and wake us up and voila we are in Goloka.

 

What the dreamer theory doesn't understand is that waking up from the dream means to be surcharged with hladini shakti by a gradual progression through different stages of spiritual growth.

 

Mahaprabhu has described the attainment of Goloka like the planting of a spiritual seed by the spiritual master and the growing of the creeper of devotion through higher planes and eventually penetrating the material coverings of the universe, entering the viraja and then growing further and futher through the brahmajyoti to Vaikuntha and then farther and farther through Ayodhya and then ultimately reaching to Goloka.

 

So, it is not as easy as just "waking-up".

It involves a subjective evolution of consciousness through progressively higher and higher spiritual strata until the creeper of devotion reaches Vaikuntha.

 

The dreamer theory negates the whole science of cultivating the devotional creeper and going higher and higher until the final desination of Goloka is attained.

 

You don't just wake up in Goloka.

You have to make gradual progress as Srila Sanantan Goswami has narrated in his Brihat Bhagavatamritam.

 

The dreamer wake-up theory is a simplistic idea that has no basis in the true Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Srila Prabhupada's kindergarten letters and lectures just give elementary understandings.

 

His books deal with the siddhanta in a more scientific process.

 

Those who build their careers off of the letters of Srila Prabhupada are actually cheaters because Srila Prabhupada wanted his followers to go beyond the elementary school and get an advance understanding eventually.

[theist]

 

Since we can be present within his dream with full awareness of who he is, and with full awareness of having a confidential and loving relationship with his personal servants, such an acheived state must be considered to be like being AWAKE. NOT DREAMING OF SEPERATE MATERIAL DESIRES AND EXPERIENCING THE RESULTANT PROCESS OF MENTALLY CONCOCTED SPECULATIONS. AWAKE. While geographically situalted in Sri Visnu's dreamscape.

 

Yes, this is why lucid dreaming is perhaps the best analogy, while no analogy is perfect I have yet to here a better one.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

Therefore prakṛti is eternal; it is not false. The Lord refers to this as "My prakṛti."

 

Nothing of Krishna's is a dream.

The dream is that we are lords of Prakriti when actually Krishna is the Lord of Prakriti and we are worms in stool.

 

We are dreaming that we are not worms is stool when actually we are.

[theist]

 

Bhagavän says, tathä dehäntara-präptiù. Dehino 'smin yathä dehe kaumäraà yauvanaà jarä, tathä dehäntara [bg. 2.13]. Dehäntara-präptiù is there. As we are getting dehäntara. We have got experience every day. Just like in daytime we have got this body. At night, when we dream, we have got a different body. We go elsewhere; we're working differently, forgetting this body, and again, daytime, we forget our body which was seen in the dream. That is also dream; this is also dream. This is daydream, and that is night dream. But the seer, the soul, is permanent. He is in the daytime and he is also nighttime. So this is our position. We are changing our body. Bg 4.17 lecture

[shiva]

Guruvani and theist, you are both right, I don't think you are speaking in defined terms which you guys have agreed upon, therefore there is confusion.

 

Theist is correct in his statements concerning the dream nature of the material world and how matter is manfiest as maya in the vision of conditioned souls. The problem with understanding what he is saying is that he is using the word "dream" when it might be better understood by using the word "illusory". For example when you wrote:

 

"Everything you perceive in this field is a dream until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of is innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still dreaming"

 

That might make more sense to some devotee if it is stated like this:

 

"Everything you perceive in this field is illusory until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of is innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still in illusion"

 

Or when you wrote:

 

"Without the whimsical (dreaming) desires of the wayward living entities there would not be a material manifestation at all...not even one blade of grass. Krsna has no personal need for the material world. So it is based on the dreams of living entities trying to be the prime enjoyer. What is based on subtle dreams is also dream matter. For instance, aman may desire to build a huge skyscraper building. That desire is a dream which represents his need to be seen as a big man. So his desire to be a big man is a dream of the mind and the specific plan to accomplish this is by building a skyscraper is a dream of under the influence of intelligence. When he starts to build the building in gross matter he is just solidifying the same dream into a more external level where it can be perceived by the gross senses. Remember gross matter itself is a product of subtle matter and is therefore dream energy vibtating at a frequency that makes it perceiveable to a denser form of senses."

 

It might be better phrased like this:

 

"Without the illusory desires of the wayward living entities there would not be a material manifestation at all...not even one blade of grass. Krsna has no personal need for the material world. So it is based on the illusory desires of living entities trying to be the prime enjoyer. What is based on illusion is also illusion. For instance, aman may desire to build a huge skyscraper building. That desire is illusory which represents his need to be seen as a big man. So his desire to be a big man is an illusion of the mind and the specific plan to accomplish this is by building a skyscraper is illusory under the influence of intelligence. When he starts to build the building in gross matter he is just solidifying the same illusion into a more external level where it can be perceived by the gross senses. Remember gross matter itself is a product of subtle matter and is therefore subtle energy vibtating at a frequency that makes it perceiveable to a denser form of senses."

 

 

What guruvani said is also correct. You cannot just jump to the level of being free from all dreaming or illusion, that is the state of liberation, jivan mukta, that comes from following a process, although somepeople may gain that state faster then others due to their level of attainment in a previous life.

 

This is from Srila Prabhupada

 

Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.9.7

 

My Lord, You are the supreme one, but by Your different energies You appear differently in the spiritual and material worlds. You create the total energy of the material world by Your external potency, and after creation You enter within the material world as the Supersoul. You are the Supreme Person, and through the temporary modes of material nature You create varieties of manifestation, just as fire, entering into wood of different shapes, burns brilliantly in different varieties.

 

Purport

 

Dhruva Maharaja realized that the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, acts through His different energies, not that He becomes void or impersonal and thus becomes all-pervading. The Mayavadi philosopher thinks that the Absolute Truth, being spread throughout the cosmic manifestation, has no personal form. But here Dhruva Maharaja, upon realization of the Vedic conclusion, says, “You are spread all over the cosmic manifestation by Your energy.” This energy is basically spiritual, but because it acts in the material world temporarily, it is called maya, or illusory energy. In other words, for everyone but the devotees the Lord’s energy acts as external energy. Dhruva Maharaja could understand this fact very nicely, and he could understand also that the energy and the energetic are one and the same. The energy cannot be separated from the energetic.

[theist]

 

What guruvani said is also correct. You cannot just jump to the level of being free from all dreaming or illusion, that is the state of liberation, jivan mukta, that comes from following a process, although somepeople may gain that state faster then others due to their level of attainment in a previous life.

 

 

This is not his objection however. He is saying that no one is dreaming .His position makes no sense to me but he insists it to be some esoteric Gaudiya Vaisnava teaching that is beyond what Prabhupada taught because Prabhupada on taught beginners. That is the whole point of this thread apparently.

 

 

 

Yes but Shiva the word in question is "dreaming". The fact that dreams are illusions and illusions are dreams is exactly the point I am trying to make. Srila Prabhupada has used the word dreaming as in night dream and day dream therefore mydself and others also feel perfectly at ease in using the word dream which seems to irritate our friend Guruvani to no end.

 

For guruvani to disagree with the word dream as used is simply wrong headed. Thanks for trying to harmonize the situation but if is going to reject Srila Prabhupada's clear instructions on the matter I see no reason to think he would accept my words so I have given up on trying to convince him.

 

We have Prabhupada's version and his version and people will take the version that most attracts them.

[shiva]

 

This is not his objection however. He is saying that no one is dreaming .His position makes no sense to me but he insists it to be some esoteric Gaudiya Vaisnava teaching that is beyond what Prabhupada taught because Prabhupada on taught beginners. That is the whole point of this thread apparently.

 

 

 

Yes but Shiva the word in question is "dreaming". The fact that dreams are illusions and illusions are dreams is exactly the point I am trying to make. Srila Prabhupada has used the word dreaming as in night dream and day dream therefore mydself and others also feel perfectly at ease in using the word dream which seems to irritate our friend Guruvani to no end.

 

For guruvani to disagree with the word dream as used is simply wrong headed. Thanks for trying to harmonize the situation but if is going to reject Srila Prabhupada's clear instructions on the matter I see no reason to think he would accept my words so I have given up on trying to convince him.

 

We have Prabhupada's version and his version and people will take the version that most attracts them.

 

I think the problem is semantics. The use of the word dream in sastra is metaphoric, it is used as an analogy trying to show that a conditioned soul and a person experiencing a dream while sleeping are similar because neither one is fully conscious of reality. They both take what is an illusory reality as being real. When you are in a dream (except lucid dreaming which has no relevance to the analogy) you don't know you are dreaming, you don't know that what you are experiencing is an illusion which seems like reality. Similarly conditioned souls are unaware to varying degrees of the actual spritual reality they exist within and as a part of in this world. So they are compared to people living in a dream world.

 

But Guruvani is correct when he states that the material is not a dream in the sense of not being a real place. The first post of his to comment on dreams was in response to this statement:

 

"The material world is like a day dream"

 

He then rejected that as false and said:

 

"No its not.

Pradhan is not a daydream.

Maya-shakti is not a daydream.

The Viraja is not a daydream.

 

The material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world.

Reflections in water are not daydreams.

They are real reflections.

The Moon reflected in the ocean is a real reflection.

It is not any daydream.

 

The only daydream going on is the fall-from-goloka fairytale."

 

Guruvani was right because the material world isn't like a daydream, the dream is not recognizing reality for what it really is, the material world is real, not recognizing the material world for what it is and how it works creates a dream like reality for conditioned souls. We don't dream that our bodies or rocks and cars are real, they are real, they are not dreams, the dream is not realizing that God manifests all these things and controls them. I know you understand this because you wrote:

 

"Everything you perceive in this field is a dream until you become Krsna conscious then you realize it is all Krsna in the form of one of his innumberable energies. If we have the concept of "material" then we are still dreaming."

 

So, neither of you are wrong, you just don't seem to understand what the other is saying.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The material world is like a day dream

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

 

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu’ Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation, however no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation. We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

 

[Guruvani]

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 13.27

 

yāvat sañjāyate kiñcit

sattvaḿ sthāvara-jańgamam

kṣetra-kṣetrajña-saḿyogāt

tad viddhi bharatarṣabha

 

 

SYNONYMS

yāvat — whatever; sañjāyate — comes into being; kiñcit — anything; sattvam — existence; sthāvara — not moving; jańgamam — moving; kṣetra — of the body; kṣetra-jña — and the knower of the body; saḿyogāt — by the union between; tat viddhi — you must know it; bharata-ṛṣabha — O chief of the Bhāratas.

 

 

TRANSLATION

O chief of the Bhāratas, know that whatever you see in existence, both the moving and the nonmoving, is only a combination of the field of activities and the knower of the field.

 

 

 

So, according to the dreamer theory there really is no field of activities.

According to them it is just a dream and doesn't really exist.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

The material nature is created by Him, and the superior nature is placed in this material nature, and thus all these activities and manifestations take place.

According to the dreamer theory then Krishna didn't really create material nature and the conditioned souls aren't really in the material nature field of activities - they only dream that they are.

 

The soul is placed in the material nature by Krishna.

 

Sorry kiddies, but that is no dream.

It is for real.

[Guruvani]

I disagree with the "dreamer theorists" because they use the dreaming analogy of Srila Prabhupada to support their bogus theory that we are all in Goloka actually but that we are only dreaming that we aren't in Goloka right now in a spiritual body that has lapsed into a coma.

 

We aren't in Goloka dreaming.

We are in the material universe dreaming we are the enjoyers of prakriti.

 

We don't have a spiritual body.

We have a material body.

 

We attain a spiritual body if and when we attain perfection in devotional service and the relationship we choose to have with Krishna.

 

So, that is why I am arguing with the dreamers theorists.

Because they are abusing the dreamer analogy to support some cock and bull story that we are actually in Goloka with a spiritual body and all we need to do is wake up and abrakadabra, presto-chango we discover that our billions of lifetimes in the material world was just a split second lapse of memory and that actually we were really in Goloka in a spiritual body the whole time.

 

I don't buy that bull manure.

It doesn't correspond to the science of self-realization that is described in shastra.

 

The dreamer theorists are trying to use the analogy to support their fall-from-goloka theory which is also a load of manure.

[suchandra]

 

I disagree with the "dreamer theorists" because they use the dreaming analogy of Srila Prabhupada to support their bogus theory that we are all in Goloka actually but that we are only dreaming that we aren't in Goloka right now in a spiritual body that has lapsed into a coma.

 

We aren't in Goloka dreaming.

We are in the material universe dreaming we are the enjoyers of prakriti.

 

We don't have a spiritual body.

We have a material body.

 

We attain a spiritual body if and when we attain perfection in devotional service and the relationship we choose to have with Krishna.

 

So, that is why I am arguing with the dreamers theorists.

Because they are abusing the dreamer analogy to support some cock and bull story that we are actually in Goloka with a spiritual body and all we need to do is wake up and abrakadabra, presto-chango we discover that our billions of lifetimes in the material world was just a split second lapse of memory and that actually we were really in Goloka in a spiritual body the whole time.

 

I don't buy that bull manure.

It doesn't correspond to the science of self-realization that is described in shastra.

 

The dreamer theorists are trying to use the analogy to support their fall-from-goloka theory which is also a load of manure.

Thanks Guruvani prabhu ("Japa Jim") for presenting your oppinion, guess that everyone accepts that you feel you have to write down all this. Only question might be raised, why you are against it that others are presenting their oppinions?

[Guruvani]

 

Thanks Guruvani prabhu for presenting your oppinion, guess that everyone accepts that you feel you have to write down all this. Only question might be raised, why you are against it that others are presenting their oppinions?

 

Opinion?

I am sorry you see it that way.

I have shown many quotes and verses that support my "opinion".

 

The fall-from-goloka theory contradicts the statements of Lord Krishna and shastra that liberated devotees in Vaikuntha are infallible.

 

That seems to be the point some of you don't get.

I am not presenting an opinion.

I am presenting shastric evidence that illustrates my position in the issue.

 

The fall-from-goloka theorists are extracting a false conclusion from allegorical conceptions and producing a conclusion that contradicts Lord Krishna and the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Before some confused ISKCON people invented the fall-from-goloka theory there was no such idea in the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

None of the learned and experienced disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur accept the fall-from-goloka theory.

Neither Keshava Maharaja, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Puri Maharaja or any other senior Gaudiya Vaishnava ever advocated or supported any fall-from-goloka theory.

Narayana Maharaja does not support it either.

 

The fall-from-goloka story is an ISKCON myth.

It has never been integral to the Gaudiya siddhanta.

It is simply an ISKCON fairytale.

 

I have shown and proven my "opinion" with shastric verses and the direct words of Lord Caitanya on the constitutional position of the soul.

 

All the fall-from-goloka theorists can do is twist and manipulate statements of Srila Prabhupada to draw false conclusions.

 

Srila Prabhupada never ONCE said that any devotee has ever fallen from Goloka or become in illusion in Goloka.

 

It is simply absurd to even propose that he was saying that.

[theist]

Thanks again shiva for your attempt to harmonize things, however I do understand my/our position and the nature of the conversation at hand. It is not simply semantics. Have you read the whole thread? Guruvani is not saying the same thing as we are. He is just not coherent on the subject. It really is that simple. His objections have been answered time and time again with abundant staements from Srila Prabhupada and it is obvious he is not even listening but continues to post the same objections over and over. Is anyone home there? I think not and feel my point has been made and the same point is being continually held up by others so it's time for me to exit this excercise in futility.

 

ps Nice to see you rejoining us here as it has been awhile since you made your presence known.

 

Haribol

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani is not saying the same thing as we are. He is just not coherent on the subject.

 

Haribol

This material world is not our dream.

It is the dream of Maha-Vishnu.

If Maha-Vishnu is a form of Krishna, the ultimate reality then is his dream also not real?

Is the dream of Maha-Vishnu unconnected with reality?

 

Is Maha-Vishnu's dream the same phoney illusion as our dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport what the dream of the living entity is.

The dream is the false understanding of the material nature and the illusion that we are these bodies.

Our dream is simply a misunderstanding of reality.

We are not dreaming we are in the material world.

We ARE in the material world - the material energy of Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada defines what he means about the dreaming condition of the living entity.

 

 

Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord.

 

Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is "mine" and this is "I." The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as "I" or falsely thinks that he is the Lord and that everything in connection with that material body is "mine." Thus only in dream does the misconception of "I" and "mine" persist life after life. This continues life after life, as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord.In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly defines that the dreaming of the soul is simply his misunderstanding of who he is and what his relationship with Krishns is.

 

We are not in Goloka in spiritual bodies dreaming that we are worms in stool.

We actually are worms in stool until we realize that we are not these bodies and need to develop a spiritual body to serve Krishna.

 

The material world is not a product of OUR imagination.

It is real.

The pure devotee does not see the material world as material.

He sees it a part of the kingdom of God.

 

Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.245-253

New York, December 16, 1966

 

Whenever there is, I mean to say, discrepancies in the maintenance of law and order of this material nature, there is need of avatara, incarnation. Because it is God's kingdom, it is also secondary kingdom.

The secondary kingdom of God is a reality.

The dream of Maha-Vishnu is also very real.

It is not a fairytale like the fall-from-goloka theory.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.22, purport

 

 

The universe is real. In his commentary on Vedanta-sūtra, Śrīla Madhvācārya has confirmed this by quoting the following statement from the Vedic śruti-mantras: satyaḿ hy evedaḿ viśvam asṛjata. "This universe, created by the Lord, is real." The perfect authority of the Vedas thus certifies this universe to be real; nevertheless, because our knowledge is stolen by illusion (as indicated here by the words asta-dhiṣaṇam), we cannot properly understand this universe or the Supreme Lord who has created it. As the expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa, the universe is real and is meant for being engaged in His service. One who accepts the kingdom of God as home, the Lord Himself as the object of love, and the material universe as paraphernalia for being engaged in the Lord's service dwells within eternal reality wherever he may go within the material and spiritual worlds.