Is ISKCON philosophy outdated?

[Pita das]

Srila Prabhupada never ONCE said that any devotee has ever fallen from Goloka or become in illusion in Goloka.

 

It is simply absurd to even propose that he was saying that.

 

<!-- / message -->Agreed

[Vigraha]

 

Srila Prabhupada never ONCE said that any devotee has ever fallen from Goloka or become in illusion in Goloka.

 

It is simply absurd to even propose that he was saying that.

 

<!-- / message -->Agreed

No, you do not understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada!

 

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,

1975)

 

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

[Guruvani]

 

No, you do not understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada!

 

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,

1975)

 

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Read Bhagavad-Gita.

Then Maybe you will get the picture that living entities are spiritual sparks in the Brahmajyoti and are falling down from impersonal shanta-rasa.

 

Fallen souls come from the brahmajyoti in the spiritual sky not not from the spiritual planets.

 

Pure devotees of Krishna never fall down from spiritual planets.

Srila Prabhupada has said that many times in his books.

 

The fallfown comes from impersonal positions in the brahmajyoti.

That is why they fall down.

They have no service to Krishna.

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.17 purport,

 

Such atomic particles of the spirit whole are compared to the sunshine molecules. In the sunshine there are innumerable radiant molecules. Similarly, the fragmental parts of the Supreme Lord are atomic sparks of the rays of the Supreme Lord, called by the name prabhā, or superior energy.

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: “We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . .”

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Srila Prabhupada – “Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence, but his relationship with krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the lord which is his original or constitutional position. the relationship of the living entity with krsna is eternal as both krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new. 70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

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Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. but those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

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Srila Prabhupada – ‘In the present status of our life we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position’ Introduction to Bhagavad Gita as it is

[Guruvani]

I guess the fall-from-goloka theorists believe that devotees are falling down from spiritual planets and all the living entities in the brahmajyoti are secure?

 

You people need to read the books.

[Pita das]

Srila Prabhupada has said that once going back to Godhead one will not again fall back to the material world .His Divine Grace's example was that of placeing ones hand in fire ,once we understand what is fire we will not place our hands in into fire again.

 

So whom here will place thier hand in fire to be burned ,we certianly all advoid that, we have the abilty to but no one would do it willfully.

 

Once we go back Home Back to Godhead we do not willfully return back to the material world .To serve Krishna tho if ordered the devottee will whatever is His pleasure

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada has said that once going back to Godhead one will not again fall back to the material world .His Divine Grace's example was that of placeing ones hand in fire ,once we understand what is fire we will not place our hands in into fire again.

 

So whom here will place thier hand in fire to be burned ,we certianly all advoid that, we have the abilty to but no one would do it willfully.

 

Once we go back Home Back to Godhead we do not willfully return back to the material world .To serve Krishna tho if ordered the devottee will whatever is His pleasure

The fall-down-from-Goloka-only-once and then lesson learned is another old ISKCON myth.

There is no evidence I have seen that Srila Prabhupada started the myth.

 

Other than that you are probabably referring to a verse of Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-gita.

 

Lord Krishna says that

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 8.15

 

mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saḿsiddhiḿ paramāḿ gatāḥ

 

SYNONYMS

mām — Me; upetya — achieving; punaḥ — again; janma — birth; duḥkha-ālayam — place of miseries; aśāśvatam — temporary; na — never; āpnuvanti — attain; mahā-ātmānaḥ — the great souls; saḿsiddhim — perfection; paramām — ultimate; gatāḥ — having achieved.

 

 

TRANSLATION

After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

 

Lord Krishna says that after attaining him one does not return to the material world.

The old ISKCON devotees added their own interpretation this means that you only fall from Goloka one time and then you never come back because you learned your lesson.

As far as I am concerned this idea is absurd.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Srila Prabhupadas teachings are always fresh and new and can never be out dated

 

 

QUESTION Does the nitya-baddha consciousness come from tatastha'?

ANSWER ' When the nitya-siddha chooses to miss use their free will in Goloka or Vaikuntha, they enter the mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body but as a secondary dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha), they then become deluded over billions of life times by the impermanance of the mahat-tattva, then seek out impersonal liberation and find temporary refuge in tatastha. .

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

No, I do not agree with your interpretation of Shastra, our nitya baddha consciousness may appear to come from tatastha which I believe your quote is referring too, but originally we are all nitya-siddha and in a state of perpetual servitude to Krishna beyond time and space. In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming in the maha-tattva or tatastha. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

Also the meaning of the sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - "Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes. Our full spiritual identity does not originate from tatastha only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva and then the tatastha condition of inactive or dormant conaciousness. We (our full constitutional nitya-siddha body) certainly do not originate from Tatastha, no jiva soul (marginal living entity) originates from such an impersonal foundation, that is not possible because perpetually we are eternal bodily servants of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

Srila Prabhupada – “This love is already there within the heart of everyone (nitya-siddha krishna-prema). http://caitanyacaritamrta.

com/madhya/22/...

Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> exists in everyone's heart, and it simply has to be awakened by the regulative process of devotional service. One has to learn to use a typewriter by following the regulative principles of the typing book. One has to place his fingers on the keys in such a way and practice, but when one becomes adept, he can type swiftly and correctly without even looking at the keys. Similarly, one has to follow the rules and regulations of devotional service as they are set down by the spiritual master; then one can come to the point of spontaneous loving service”.

Srila Prabhupada - 'Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti -- love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> -- and in the association of genuine devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

Srila Prabhupada – “"Pure love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. http://caitanyacaritamrta.

com/madhya/22/...

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - " Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the best."

HANSADUTTA: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--

:Srila Prabhupada - " No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

 

Srila Prabhupada - " Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, <st1:date Year="1971" Day="10" Month="2">10 February 1971</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Gorakhpur</st1:place></st1:City>

Even though one can enter the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya as a spark of inactive effulgence, this state of temporary dreaming inactive or comatose consciousness is not ones original or perpetual fullness.

The fullness of the jiva soul is sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA or ones nitya-siddha-avarupa identity that is eternally situated in Goloka or Vaikuntha beyond of mundane concept of divided time that only exists within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Only ones nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva or tatastha. It is only after much struggle trapped in ethereal and biological vessels, ones nitya-baddha consciousness may find the mistaken illusionary freedom within the impersonal characteristic of marginal consciousness known as the collective (along with other nitya-baddha consciousnesses) impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha. Individuality is never lost within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti nor is the connection to ones original authentic nitya-siddha bodily self ever broken, it is only forgotten.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal svarupa Krishna Conscious body, which is ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ nitya-baddha secondary conscious state is nothing other than a dreaming phenomenon emanating from ones ‘imperishable’ marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha personality.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<i>Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Year=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned" Letter to Aniruddha, dated november 14th 1968

 

Srila Prabhupada – "Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with

<FONT size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi" (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got original relationship with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comNovember 14, 1968</st1:date>,<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a... Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--...That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - "This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

This extended conscious projection, known as the nitya-baddha consciousness, is then provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu so one can give their dreams form within His mahat-tattva creation. This enables the inferior non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity to enter His dreaming mahat-tattva creation and seek out their mistaken desires of grandeur.

All life enters the maha-tattva originally from Goloka or Vaikuntha, no life or jiva souls can originate from the mahat-tattva or Maha-Vishnu, or its delusional temporary escape (Brahma-sayuyja or tatastha) Maha-Vishnu facilitates those nitya-siddhas who use their free will in Goloka or Vaikuntha to choose to enter His impermanant creation. Like darkness can only exist when light is absent, the nitya-baddha consciousness only exists when one chooses to turn away from their nitya-siddha bodily identity.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

 

Unless one enters the mahat-tattva as a pure devotee or is playing a part within <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s pastimes, one can only otherwise enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that becomes trapped in a world of forgetfulness divided into past, present and future. In this way the nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of the jivatma or soul (nitya-siddha) is encaged in perishable ethereal and biological bodies which are ornaments or vessels that are non different from the mahat-tattva or material creation.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

</B>

 

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by ffice:smarttags" /><st1:city><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:city> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

 

Srila Prabhupada;

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> After liberation from material contamination, the atomic soul may prefer to REMAIN as a spiritual spark in the effulgent rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the intelligent souls enter into the spiritual planets to associate with the Personality of Godhead.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Going back to Godhead can also be as a spiritual spark in the brahmajyoti.

The outerspace of Goloka is filled with limitelss jivas in the brahmajyoti.

 

Going back to Godhead doesn't have to mean attaining a spiritual form for pastimes with Krishna.

[Guruvani]

 

Read Bhagavad-Gita.

Then Maybe you will get the picture that living entities are spiritual sparks in the Brahmajyoti and are falling down from impersonal shanta-rasa.

 

Fallen souls come from the brahmajyoti in the spiritual sky not not from the spiritual planets.

 

Pure devotees of Krishna never fall down from spiritual planets.

Srila Prabhupada has said that many times in his books.

 

The falldown comes from impersonal positions in the brahmajyoti.

That is why they fall down.

They have no service to Krishna.

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.17 purport,

[Guruvani]

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada never said that.

It is just your imagination running away with you.

You are twisting and manipulating the words of Srila Prabhupada to match your fairytale.

Show me one statement where Srila Prabhupada ever said a pure devotee of Krishna from Goloka has ever fallen down.

You can't.

Because Srila Prabhupada never said that and he never intended to say that.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Prabhupada;

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>After liberation from material contamination, the atomic soul may prefer to REMAIN as a spiritual spark in the effulgent rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the intelligent souls enter into the spiritual planets to associate with the Personality of Godhead.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Going back to Godhead can also be as a spiritual spark in the brahmajyoti.

The outerspace of Goloka is filled with limitelss jivas in the brahmajyoti.

 

Going back to Godhead doesn't have to mean attaining a spiritual form for pastimes with Krishna.

 

Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti -- love for <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> -- and in the association of genuine devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Srila Prabhupada – "Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--...That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

 

PRABHUPADA - "All tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and that will be realised when one is liberated.

 

HANSADUTTA: So that's fixed already.

 

PRABHUPADA: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krishna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service

 

HANSADUTTA: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--

 

PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Pure love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. http://caitanyacaritamrta.

 

The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krishna as their nitya-siddha-svarupa BODILY origin. A Jiva as the nitya-baddha-tatastha consciousness (border line) or potency of Krishna exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity. In other words when one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition to exist.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead". Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Unless one enters the mahat-tattva as a pure devotee or is playing a part within <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s pastimes, one can only otherwise enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that becomes trapped in a world of forgetfulness divided into past, present and future. In this way the nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of the jivatma or soul (nitya-siddha) is encaged in perishable ethereal and biological bodies which are ornaments or vessels that are non different from the mahat-tattva or material creation.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

The nitya-baddha consciousness originates from the nitya-siddha MARGINAL body and is instantaneously in the mahat-tattva, divided time and space when one chooses to forget Krishna.

Its not that we have two different selves, no, it’s not like that, there is only one marginal self that chooses to be with Krishna or reject Krishna. The simple choice all marginal living entities have is accepting ones Krishna Conscious perpetual body in Vaikuntha, while the other is rejecting Krishna and being confined to counterfeit temporary bodily forms in the mahat-tattva.

 

The difference is eternal time in Goloka or Vaikuntha world beyond past and future that exists in the perpetual present in contrast to a mahat-tattva or material world that is governed by time, space, past, present and future. In other words it is not that we have an eternal body in Vaikuntha and we are simultaneously in the material world, no our 'svarupa' body in Goloka or Vaikuntha is always there however, we are also in the material world due to free will or choice. What separates our awareness from our perpetual niya-siddha-svarupa body and our present nitya-baddha consciousness trapped in an ethereal and biological body, is the concept of time that can place us in both places at the same time.

 

What makes our consciousness appear to be sometimes divided into two (nitya-siddha and nitya baddha), where one is our perpetual Krishna conscious svarupa individual body,and the other our non-Krishna conscious state, is free will. We all have the choice to be with Krishna as our perpetual bodily identity or we can 'dream' of being something else. So how can we also be in the material world (mahat-tattva) and Goloka similtaniosly?

 

The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self however, the nitya-siddha is always referred to as the eternal form or higher self of the marginal living entity, while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is called the secondary conscious projected lower self.

 

It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. Just like in the presents of light darness cannot exist however, when there is no light then darkness is everwhere.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

 

These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing mercy of the Spiritual Master.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing mercy of the Spiritual Master.

 

So, you've gotten that mercy and now this is all very clear to you?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Prabhupada never said that.

It is just your imagination running away with you.

 

You are twisting and manipulating the words of Srila Prabhupada to match your fairytale.

 

Show me one statement where Srila Prabhupada ever said a pure devotee of Krishna from Goloka has ever fallen down.

 

You can't.

Because Srila Prabhupada never said that and he never intended to say that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down". 760708ed.wdc Conversations

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT". 760708ed.wdc Conversations

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

 

 

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

 

 

 

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

'We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka'

 

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada writes: “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

 

 

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

 

 

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Prabhupada never said that.

It is just your imagination running away with you.

 

You are twisting and manipulating the words of Srila Prabhupada to match your fairytale.

 

Show me one statement where Srila Prabhupada ever said a pure devotee of Krishna from Goloka has ever fallen down.

 

You can't.

Because Srila Prabhupada never said that and he never intended to say that.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. but those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down. 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence, but his relationship with krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the lord which is his original or constitutional position. the relationship of the living entity with krsna is eternal as both krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new. 70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘In the present status of our life we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position’ Introduction to Bhagavad Gita as it is

[suchandra]

 

I guess the fall-from-goloka theorists believe that devotees are falling down from spiritual planets and all the living entities in the brahmajyoti are secure?

 

You people need to read the books.

At least fall downs in ISKCON are reported and yes, it seems even advanced devotees can fall down:

 

By the GBC Executive Committee, September 17, 2007

The GBC Executive Committee, after much deliberation and consultation, has no alternative but to sadly report the deviations of and the abuses to devotees carried out by Balabhadra dasa (ACBSP), previously known as Bhakti Balabh Puri Goswami.

Notwithstanding his fall-downs the GBC offered Balabhadra Prabhu shelter and guidance provided he work under their guidance, absorbing himself in sadhana. Unfortunately he has recently defied this agreement, the guidance of his friends, the direction of GBC members and the authority of this Society, thus in effect leaving ISKCON and acting independently. Therefore, as he has plans to continue some independent form of “preaching” and collections, we have no option but to inform the devotees of his deviations. What follows is a brief history of Balabhadra dasa’s disturbing behaviour, behaviour which led to his stepping down from guruship, sannyasa and finally membership of ISKCON.

————-

Report on Balabhadra dasa, formerly Bhakti Balabh Puri Goswami

This report was compiled for the GBC by the committee dealing with this case, Sivarama Swami, BB Govinda Swami and Praghosa dasa and has been approved by the GBC Executive Committee. It has been reproduced here in full, and thus may contain more information than expected from a general article.

Introduction

Balabhadra dasa was always eccentric and even in the early 80’s showed a penchant for cars, cameras and handling money. However his wife, his godbrothers, and his own strong spiritual practices, namely sadhana and deity worship, generally kept his eccentricity and indulgences to a tolerable level. Otherwise he was known as a good preacher, inspirational sankirtana leader, and a caring devotee.

The death of his wife seemed to be a visible turning point in his life. His sadhana deteriorated, his bodily weight increased and he became increasingly involved in the lives of his female disciples, despite his having entered the renounced order. There was a “special” relationship with one female disciple, who was the person with whom he later, repeatedly fell down. Balabhadra dasa’s distancing Sivarama Swami from Scotland and the latter’s eventual resignation as GBC for the UK left Balabhadra dasa more or less unsupervised and uncontrolled. Although the exact chronology of events is not perfectly represented above, it does give a cursory indication of Balabhadra dasa’s decline over time.

Findings of the Working Committee

Over three years ago Balabhadra dasa’s sexual abuse of his female disciple came to light and in investigating that abuse, a Pandora’s box of equally serious deviations gradually came to light, all of which were made known to the GBC Executive. The committee working with Balabhdara dasa first removed him from all positions of authority and suspended his guruship, later they restricted him to residence in Vrndavana and finally negotiated with him his retirement from active service. The conclusion of the three years discussions and consultation was a final meeting in Scotland, the results of which are recorded later in this report.

Years of investigations and meetings with Balabhadra and his disciples revealed Balabhadra’s degradation into a disoriented person who could in no way be considered fit for a position of authority in this movement, what to speak of spiritual leadership. This assessment is shared by all the senior devotees in Scotland and substantiated by many practical examples, only some of which are cited below. (He was sent to a professional psychiatrist for six weeks, however he blocked us from obtaining the results of the analyst’s report.)

To disciples and later to the committee dealing with him Balabhadra dasa has admitted that he thought of himself as a personal associate of Lord Caitanya and/or Krsna. In addition, his conception of guru was one in which he was the proprietor of his disciples, of ISKCON’s assets and especially of ISKCON Scotland’s monies. And because a guru, he thought, takes the karma of his disciples he deemed that he was above Srila Prabhupada’s order to co-operate with the GBC secretary and the GBC body.

Balabhadra would become physically abusive to disciples, sometimes violently hitting and kicking them, even to the extent of drawing blood. In the name of ‘helping’ two female disciples he performed many explicit sexual and voyeuristic acts by exploiting the obedience of his female disciples. Considering himself proprietor of the Society’s funds Balabhadra wasted money by the frivolous purchase of, amongst other things, expensive cars, motor-homes, cameras and dozens of guitars.

His dealings with disciples were contradictory, duplicitous, manipulative, intimidating and abusive. To his disciples he openly criticized senior devotees, sannyasis and friends, both in private and in public classes and lengthy istaghostis.

Despite all these obvious deviations, to date, at the repeated request of those who have been trying to assist him he has not, and by his own admission cannot, document the reasons leading to his gross deviations. He is unable to understand the severity of his transgressions, or the reactions of those in knowledge of them. He still believes his good motivations overshadow any faulty methodology.

Preliminary Recommendations

While there are many other symptoms and examples of Balabhadra’s deviation, the words above do not do full justice in portraying the hurt devotees have suffered at his hands. Our society must be clear that such abuse will not be tolerated, especially from gurus, those who are meant to show the ideal example of the humble Vaisnava.

Therefore the working committee considered it inappropriate that our Society allow him to continue as a spiritual master or sannyasi, invest in him any managerial or spiritual responsibility, or put him in a position of trust. Having seen how he has abused the trust placed in him by the Society, the devotees, and his disciples; having seen how grievous his conduct and deeds were, the committee was convinced that Balabhadra dasa could no longer be put forward as a representative of this society in any capacity.

August Meeting in Scotland

With these conclusions in mind the working committee along with six senior devotees of the Scottish yatra sat with Balabhadra dasa to work out an agreement. It was accepted that if Balabhadra dasa continues to work under ISKCON authority, then his basic needs would be looked after by the Scottish yatra. The desire to look after Balabhadra dasa was in recognition of the years of dedicated service he performed prior to his problems arising and the heartfelt appreciation of the Scottish devotees for the help he had given them. In every meeting with Balabhadra dasa over the years, including at this final meeting, his great services and good intentions were always acknowledged. Yet those could not negate his offenses.

After two full days of discussion the following mutual agreement was reached with Balabhadra dasa:

o The Scottish Yatra would support Balabhadra with a monthly allowance and give him the permanent use of an apartment in Sridhama Mayapura, where he was to move. In addition Scotland would cover budgeted travel, medical and miscellaneous expenses. o Balabhadra dasa agreed to step down both as a guru and as a sannyasi o Balabhadra dasa would serve under the guidance of Sivarama Swami, BB Govinda Swami and Praghosa dasa, until further notice, staying at Kusum Sarovara and as soon as the necessary arrangements are made, move to Mayapur where he will be under the supervision of a senior vaisnava o Balabhadra dasa would only travel by prior agreement o Balabhadra dasa agreed to undergo further counseling as soon as it could be arranged.

Even during the meeting Balabhadra dasa gave up his sannyasa cloth and we continued amicably calling him Balabhadra Prabhu rather than Puri Maharaja. At the conclusion of the meeting Balabhadra dasa departed from Scotland and everyone appeared satisfied with the above agreement, especially since all the points were mutually agreed upon without much ado.

The Scottish Devotees

Until this year, the only devotee in Scotland aware of all the deviations and subsequent restrictions on Balabhadra dasa was the temple president, Prabhupada Vani dasa. Others thought he had semi-retired for health reasons.

In the beginning of the year news gradually leaked to other senior devotees and since that time we have had many meetings to inform and then help those disciples. These disciples included all the senior and leading devotees of the yatra. With the exception of two (mentioned below) all devotees accept Balabhadra’s stepping down as both guru and sannyasi and have stopped all worship of and appellation in regards to him. Many have sought shelter from other senior Vaisnavas.

The devotees are all united around and supportive of Prabhupada Vani dasa as temple president, who is doing an admirable job in that service, in an otherwise trying situation. Balabhadra’s son and daughter, also living near the temple, are fully aware of his transgressions and fully supportive of the working committee, its decisions, and the Scottish temple management.

There appears to be two die-hard supporters of Balabhadra who show no apparent change in allegiance to their “guru”, even after being made aware of all the transgressions and abuses. These devotees are now being engaged by Balabhadra for his purposes.

With those exceptions, who are now leaving the devotee community, the yatra, the temple and the congregation is stable, the devotees mature and the mood upbeat. There have been many visitors recently, such as Hari-sauri prabhu, Madhavananda prabhu, Dhananjaya prabhu and Indradyumna Swami and more are expected. In short the isolation is over.

Subsequent Development

Within one month of this agreement being reached, Balabhadra dasa reneged on it. Instead of fulfilling certain duties and communications assigned him, he turned up at the temple in Scotland, at midnight, on Janmastami, unannounced and without permission. Obviously the devotees there were both shocked and intimidated. He spoke to some proclaiming that he was now a free man and not working under any authority. He also stated that he had friends and collecting abilities, thus he would not be affected by losing the support of the Scottish Yatra, or of ISKCON.

Unless and until Balabhadra submits himself to the working committee and the authority of ISKCON, he should be considered as his own agent, not a representative of ISKCON. Thus whatever project he promotes, or funds he collects for, are not with the approval of ISKCON. Thus temples and temples’ congregation should be appropriately informed.

This report completes the work of the committee assigned to this case.

The reason this issue is being announced on Dandavats is twofold;

1. It was made clear to Balabhadra dasa that if he broke the agreements regarding his rectification, restriction, and future service, and if he chose to do as he liked, his case would be made public in order to protect devotees of the Society from him.

2. Since Balabhadra dasa is now his own man, with no means of livelihood, he will seek to raise funds from the international society of devotees who should be informed that supporting him is not supporting any ISKCON approved project or person.

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[Murali_Mohan_das]

At least?!?!?!?!

 

This was the example set by Srila Prabhupada? He would be pleased by this?

 

 

At least fall downs in ISKCON are reported

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[stonehearted]

 

At least fall downs in ISKCON are reported

Eventually, when they completely lose control of the situation and their control of money and human resources is threatened.

 

and yes, it seems even advanced devotees can fall down

Of course advanced devotees may encounter difficulties; the essential question here, though, is what you mean by advanced. In the Eigth Canto of the Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada assures us that whenever Krishna tests His devotees, he also gives them the strength to overcome any difficulties.

 

I've never met this gentleman. It sounds as though he and his wife gained much mercy from Srila Prabhupada by their dedicated service over many years. It also sounds as though the risk he took in accepting disciples and the sannyasa order didn't work out for him. Perhaps remarrying would have worked better for him in the long run.

 

I think this is, unfortunately, yet another clear indication that ISKCON's leadership often has difficulty grasping guru-tattva. Their system for certifying (???or whatever it is???) gurus and for conferring sannyasa don't imspire much confidence in many devotees. Couple that with their penchant for vilifying (however you might dress it up) those who work beyond the GBC's influence, and you have a recipe for problems. Too bad.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Nice insights, Prabhu.

 

What I'm wondering is how does this international denunciation help me in my own spiritual life? How does it help any of the devotees around the world who most likely will never meet this person? Is it truly called-for and appropriate?

 

Is it really being done in a mood of service, or is it being done in a mood of retribution?

 

 

Eventually, when they completely lose control of the situation and their control of money and human resources is threatened.

 

Of course advanced devotees may encounter difficulties; the essential question here, though, is what you mean by advanced. In the Eigth Canto of the Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada assures us that whenever Krishna tests His devotees, he also gives them the strength to overcome any difficulties.

 

I've never met this gentleman. It sounds as though he and his wife gained much mercy from Srila Prabhupada by their dedicated service over many years. It also sounds as though the risk he took in accepting disciples and the sannyasa order didn't work out for him. Perhaps remarrying would have worked better for him in the long run.

 

I think this is, unfortunately, yet another clear indication that ISKCON's leadership often has difficulty grasping guru-tattva. Their system for certifying (???or whatever it is???) gurus and for conferring sannyasa don't imspire much confidence in many devotees. Couple that with their penchant for vilifying (however you might dress it up) those who work beyond the GBC's influence, and you have a recipe for problems. Too bad.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Is it really being done in a mood of service, or is it being done in a mood of retribution?

 

It's a political stunt by the GBC to try and maintain some semblance of authority.

To preserve the authority of the GBC they will make a sacrificial lamb out of the troublemakers.

[Vigraha]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada and the 10,000-Year Prophecy of ISKCON

The Golden Age within Kali-yuga

 

 

The prophecies regarding the Hare Krishna movement are quite compelling evidence of the bona fides of Srila Prabhupäda and ISKCON. They follow the scriptures and the previous acaryas with an accuracy that is quite remarkable.

 

In the course of another conversation, Srila Prabhupäda is reported to have said that his books would be the law books for those 10,000 years.

 

Ramesvara - "Srila Prabhupada, when I first came to this, to your movement, the first thing I was told is that Lord Caitanya’s movement in this age will, like a moon, rise for ten thousand years. I was told that number, ten thousand years. Is that true?"

 

Srila Prabhupada - Hm.

 

Ramesvara: "And then after that, they will..."

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This movement will go for ten thousand years without any impediment". —From a Morning Walk conversation on June 5, 1976.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This movement will go for ten thousand years without any impediment". —From a Morning Walk conversation on June 5, 1976.

ISKCON ran into a whole gang of impediments shortly after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

Either he was talking about the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu and not ISKCON in particular or he was wrong about ISKCON not meeting with impediments.

Right now ISKCON is it's own worst enemy.

The biggest enemy of ISKCON is within ISKCON.

 

The outside forces cannot create a fraction of the impediment that ISKCON has created within.

 

ISKCON is tripping over itself thanks to the GBC.

[Sarva gattah]

 

ISKCON ran into a whole gang of impediments shortly after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

Either he was talking about the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu and not ISKCON in particular or he was wrong about ISKCON not meeting with impediments.

Right now ISKCON is it's own worst enemy.

The biggest enemy of ISKCON is within ISKCON.

 

The outside forces cannot create a fraction of the impediment that ISKCON has created within.

 

ISKCON is tripping over itself thanks to the GBC.

 

No, they are growing pains of a young pioneering movement establishing itself so it WILL last for the next 10,000 years. For instance the Catholic and Protestant church have been abusing their congregation for thousands of years, child abuse has only become an issue with them in the last 10 years it has always been there under the surface and covered up

The fortunate awareness that ISKCON has experienced over the last 40 years in the struggle to establish genuine spiritual activities is that such impurities in human society CAN effect everyone but it must be dealt with to protect future generations.

 

In other words what the Catholic Church is now facing has taken over a thousand years and the Protestants over 500 years to address, where as ISKCON has realized these faults of humanan degradation and weakness right at the beginning of its birth within Global Society. In other words it has taken ISKCON less than 40 years to address issues that other religions have covered up for thousands of years.

 

I remember an incident at primary school in 1959, we had to describe two birds sitting on a fence, some described their colours others building a nest while I said because it was the beginning of the Spring season they are preparing to mate. The Nun was horrified that I used the ‘mate’ word and viciously wiped me over the back with a stick and sent me to the Head Masters office. Do most aspiring devotees today understand what establishing ISKCON in the West Srila Prabhupada was up against? The violence and ignorance we have all come out of?

 

It was only 60 years ago that 6000,000 Jews where murdered simply because of their religion. What Srila Prabhupada established in 1965 was very bold and revolutionary. It is a fact History is never recognised in its own time; therefore I am convinced that a time will come, hopefully in the 21 century, that the greatest achievement and recognition of the 20<SUP>th</SUP> Century will be the coming of His Divine Grace AC Bhabtivedanta Swami Prabhupada in 1965.

 

The physical, psychological and sexual abuse of children, the physical abuse of women and the ‘impersonal’ domineering and arrogant treatment of devotees and congregation is being dealt with in a very serious way today by ISKCON leaders such as Tamohara Prabhu, Hari Sauri prabhu, Ravindra Svarupa prabhu, Jayapartaka Swami and many others, they clearly understand that WHAT IS DONE TO CHILDREN IS WHAT THEY DO TO SOCIETY. .

 

We also have to learn from our mistakes and implement the lessons in such a way that even the most fallen and offensive can also be saved. Only Lord Chaitanya Movement can do that and this mercy we all must somehow realize in a Knowledgeable and compassionate way by many of the present and future ISKCON management. There are still realizations and improvements going on because we are still in the pioneering stage of ISKCON.

 

Many in ISKCON and coming to ISKCON will take time to be purified from the background of 21st and 20<SUP>th</SUP> centuries therefore what ‘tripping over themselves’ I prefer to call growing pains. We are at war with Maya therefore there will be causalities however, unlike the mundane religions who have covered up their transgressions, ISKCON is dealing with it and will survive because it is the prophecy of Lord Chaitanya.

 

I think these verse are especially relishable because they express the profound depth of humility which is the foundation of Srila Prabupadas real ISKCON - Caitanya-caritamrita – Madhya Lila by His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada - CC 2.2.188-206:

 

 

 

jaya jaya sri-krsna-caitanya daya-maya

 

patita-pavana jaya, jaya mahasaya

 

 

 

"All glories to Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the most merciful savior of the fallen souls! All glories to the Supreme Personality!

 

 

 

nica-jati, nica-sangi, kari nica kaja

 

tomara agrete prabhu kahite vasi laja

 

 

 

"Sir, we belong to the lowest class of men, and our associates and employment are also of the lowest type. Therefore we cannot introduce ourselves to You. We feel very much ashamed, standing here before You.

 

 

 

mat-tulyo nasti papatma

 

naparadhi ca kascana

parihare 'pi lajja me

kim bruve purusottama

 

 

 

"Dear Lord, let us inform you that no one is more sinful than us, nor is there any offender like us. Even if we wanted to mention our sinful activities, we would immediately become ashamed. And what to speak of giving them up!"

 

 

 

patita-pavana-hetu tomara avatara

 

ama-ba-i jagate, patita nahi ara

 

 

 

Both brothers submitted, "Dear Lord, You have incarnated to deliver the fallen souls. You should consider that in this world there is none so fallen as us.

 

 

 

jagai-madhai dui karile uddhara

 

tahan uddharite srama nahila tomara

 

 

 

"You have delivered the two brothers Jagai and Madhai, but to deliver them You did not have to exert Yourself very much.

 

 

 

brahmana-jati <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>tara</st1:place>, navadvipe ghara

 

nica-seva nahi kare, nahe nicera kurpara

 

 

 

"The brothers Jagai and Madhai belonged to the brahmana caste, and their residence was in the holy place of Navadvipa. They never served low-class persons, nor were they instruments to abominable activities.

 

 

 

sabe eka dosa tara, haya papacara

 

papa-rasi dahe namabhasei tomara

 

 

 

"Jagai and Madhai had but one fault--they were addicted to sinful activity. However, volumes of sinful activity can be burned to ashes simply by a dim reflection of the chanting of Your holy name.

 

 

 

tomara nama lana tomara karila nindana

 

sei nama ha-ila <st1:place>tara</st1:place> muktira karana

 

 

 

"Jagai and Madhai uttered Your holy name by way of blaspheming You. Fortunately, that holy name became the cause of their deliverance.

 

 

 

jagai-madhai haite koti koti guna

 

adhama patita papi ami dui jana

 

 

 

"We two are millions and millions of times inferior to Jagai and Madhai. We are more degraded, fallen and sinful than they.

 

 

 

mleccha-jati, mleccha-sevi, kari mleccha-karma

 

go-brahmana-drohi-sange amara sangama

 

 

 

"Actually we belong to the caste of meat-eaters because we are servants of meat-eaters. Indeed, our activities are exactly like those of the meat-eaters. Because we always associate with such people, we are inimical toward the cows and brahmanas."

 

 

 

mora karma, mora hate-galaya bandhiya

 

ku-visaya-vistha-garte diyache phelaiya

 

 

 

The two brothers, Sakara Mallika and Dabira Khasa, very humbly submitted that due to their abominable activities they were now bound by the neck and hands and had been thrown into a ditch filled with abominable stoollike objects of material sense enjoyment.

 

 

 

ama uddharite bali nahi tri-bhuvane

 

patita-pavana tumi----sabe toma vine

 

 

 

"No one within the three worlds is sufficiently powerful to deliver us. You are the only savior of the fallen souls; therefore there is no one but You.

 

 

 

ama uddhariya yadi dekhao nija-bala

 

'patita-pavana' nama tabe se saphala

 

 

 

"If You simply deliver us by Your transcendental strength, then certainly Your name will be known as Patita-pavana, the savior of the fallen souls.

 

 

 

satya eka bata kahon, suna, daya-maya

 

mo-vinu dayara patra jagate na haya

 

 

 

"Let us speak one word that is very true. Plainly hear us, O merciful one. There is no other object of mercy within the three worlds but us.

 

 

 

more daya kari' kara sva-daya saphala

 

akhila brahmanda dekhuka tomara daya-bala

 

 

 

"We are the most fallen; therefore by showing us Your mercy, Your mercy is most successful. Let the power of Your mercy be exhibited throughout the entire universe!

 

 

 

na mrsa paramartham eva me

 

srnu vijnapanam ekam agratah

yadi me na dayisyase tada

dayaniyas tava natha durlabhah

 

 

 

" 'Let us submit one piece of information before You, dear Lord. It is not at all false but is full of meaning. It is this: If You are not merciful upon us, then it will be very, very difficult to find more suitable candidates for Your mercy.'

 

 

 

apane ayogya dekhi' mane pan ksobha

 

tathapi tomara gune upajaya lobha

 

 

 

"We are very depressed at being unfit candidates for Your mercy. Yet since we have heard of Your transcendental qualities, we are very much attracted to You.

 

 

 

vamana yaiche canda dharite cahe kare

 

taiche ei vancha mora uthaye antare

 

 

 

"Indeed, we are like a dwarf who wants to capture the moon. Although we are completely unfit, a desire to receive Your mercy is awakening within our minds.

 

 

 

bhavantam evanucaran nirantarah

 

prasanta-nihsesa-mano-rathantarah

kadaham aikantika-nitya-kinkarah

praharsayisyami sanatha-jivitam

 

 

 

" 'By serving You constantly, one is freed from all material desires and is completely pacified. When shall I engage as Your permanent eternal servant and always feel joyful to have such a fitting master?' "