Who is the Jesus of Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

[Guruvani]

If in the Gaudiya Vaishnava culture there would be ONE central saviour and master as in Christianity would that GREAT MASTER be Mahaprabhu Lord Chaitanya or Srila Prabhupada or Bhaktivinoda or Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur etc.?

 

Who is the Jesus of Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

Or, are there many Jesus-like saviours in KC?

 

Some western devotees consider Srila Prabhupada like a Jesus figure - the ONE saviour of the western world.

 

But, is that really how we should be thinking?

[mahak]

This can be a nice istagosthi discussion, so be nice, guruvani, you used the jesus word first, dont pee on your own topic, okay:eek::eek:

 

By istagosthi, I am meaning that a bunch of friends get together and talk story, the central theme being our common interest of pleasing Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga. PHILOSOPHICAL speculation is deemed differently than mental speculation, especially when devotees are sharing realizations with each other. I wish I had the quote where Srila Prabhupada mede the distinction between the two, I just saw it a couple weeks ago, darn, maybe I oughta get a index hot key veda base.

 

Your question is thought provoking, so here are my provoked thoughts.

 

You infer that Jesus set himself as a master of all times, which is not correct. His teachings, some approved by churches (canon), some not (extra biblical documents like kebra nagast, nag hamadhi, Q, Gospels of Jesus, Mary, Thomas, etc) are indicative that he wished that his disciples be like him, meaning that a million with the same potency and authority of Jesus is what He wants, just like all the Vaisnava Acaryas. His actual teachings deny self service to place oneself at the top in perpetuity.

 

Yet Jesus is THE central figure of an entire theology. But who has made this happen? Not jesus, who died a criminals death, who had a mere handful of outcasts for disciples, whose wave of popularity was met by political desire of extermination of all who held his teachings to heart.

 

<center>EMPOWERMENT OF THE DISCIPLE (Matt 16: 15-19)</center> One day, Lord Jesus Christ asked His disciples, "Who do the people say that I am?" Looking to Simon Peter, He asked, "Who do you say I am?" Simon responded, "You are the annointed one, the Son of the Living Lord."

In response, The Lord said, "You are to be congratulated, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father. You are the foundation of My mission that no one can overcome, and you possess the keys to both the eternal and temporal kingdoms. But you must not tell others that I am the annointed, for they must come to Me in the same way."

 

 

 

So, from here we see the actions of not Jesus, but Supersoul. Supersoul is the central figure in all spiritual movements. Supersoul is the one who makes one a christian, muslim, or vaisnava. The savior of christianity is the savior of Vaisnavism, The Supreme Lord. Now this Supreme Person, he can have agents, whom He sends at will to help rescue His own. He can reach us even though we hide in a culture of false notions of god as the avenging angel, the blond european with the perfect beard and flowing brown hair, the crusty ol troll that michaelangelo graffittied all over that ceiling in rome.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada IS the Lord Jesus Christ for western vaisnavas who were influenced by his foundation, ISKCON. Sridhar and Puri are the GM equivalents. And they also wish those who have taken them as their life and soul to follow in their footsteps, and reach out to influence others, to become the link for someone who may need a little guidance.

 

 

 

The temples in west india that the portugeese slave traders found celebrating Lord Jesus were built for Thomas, not Jesus. Thomas is their Jesus. The Cathars worshipped the Queen of Magdalia, she is their Jesus. And the followers, though fully compliant with the theology of Jesus, were, as the verse above confirms, confirmed not by Jesus, not by flesh and blood, but by the central figure of any authentic theology, the Supreme Lord, who is always in personal contact with all sentient beings by his expansion of Lord Sesa Balarama.

 

 

 

Anyway, this is how I see it. There is no Jesus figure in Gaudiya Vaisnavism and many, but that holds true in real christianity as well.

 

 

 

 

<center>YOGA OF SRI GURUDEVA (Matt 10:25-30)</center> Lord Jesus Christ Prayed, "I praise You, Abah (Father), Lord of heaven and earth, because You hide from the learned scholars while revealing Yourself to the poor and needy. You have turned everything over to the Son, and nobody knows the Son except the Father, nor does anybody know the Father except the Son and those with ears to hear from the Son and are pleasing to the Son. All you poor and needy, come to the Son and I will refresh you. Take My Yoke (Yoga) upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and modest and you may confide in Me. My Yoke is comfortable and My load is light."

 

 

 

So, a particul;ar person may be sent, and may be honored as God Himself, but such a kind person is representative, not central.

 

 

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

 

the above are from the bible, mahaksadasa version:eek::eek::eek:

[suchandra]

 

If in the Gaudiya Vaishnava culture there would be ONE central saviour and master as in Christianity would that GREAT MASTER be Mahaprabhu Lord Chaitanya or Srila Prabhupada or Bhaktivinoda or Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur etc.?

 

Who is the Jesus of Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

Or, are there many Jesus-like saviours in KC?

 

Some western devotees consider Srila Prabhupada like a Jesus figure - the ONE saviour of the western world.

 

But, is that really how we should be thinking?

I would say there were/are dozens of charismatic Vaishnava leaders who would have been honoured even more than Prabhupada was honoured during those 10 years, due their being 100% loyal towards their guru. But because these Vaishnava gentlemen couldnt remain humble and presented themselves as servants but demanded to be recognized as genuine mahabhagavats, spiritual masters, pure devotees, bonafide acaryas etc etc etc, they were not only rejected by people in general, spiritual laymen but by the majority of Vaishnavas as well. The Jesus of Vaishnavism would be a devotee like Vishnujana Swami, who first of all doesnt demand to be the biggest leader but has enough intelligence how to remain humble. As you see, this is to be found nowhere, instead the opposite happens, people demand reservation of building ground for their future great acarya samadhis next to Srila Rupa Goswami's samadhi and that SRILA is put in front their names although their preaching performance is still invisible. In sum the consulting service of all these probands for a genuine Vaishnava leading figure doesnt actually function at all - even the materialists are better counseled when it comes to set up proper publicity campaign to put someone in perspective..

[Guruvani]

 

This can be a nice istagosthi discussion, so be nice, guruvani, you used the jesus word first, dont pee on your own topic, okay:eek::eek:

Ok, I get your point.

But, this topic is not about Jesus per se but about if there is a Jesus-like central saviour in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

I certainly am not up to another battle about the authenticity of Jesus as a historical figure.

 

The topic seeks to explore the question as to whether or not Gaudiya Vaishnavism has any such conception as ONE saviour with many apostles or if Gaudiya Vaishnvism has a multiplicty of Jesus-like saviours.

 

Jesus was the saviour and he had apostolic disciples.

There is ONE saviour in Christianity.

 

How does Gaudiya Vaishnava ontology compare with the Christian model?

[mahak]

guru and gauranga are words held together, always. There is no one without the other.

 

Personally, I think revisionism is what makes messaiah figures. Just as 2000 years ago, with the advertizing campaigns of politicians needed to place an Icon up there.

 

vaisnavism has many. Take your pick if you want one. I couldnt pick between guru (madhavenndra puri) and disciple (iswara puri), so I take both with tears in my eyes. Prabhupada did not give me prabhupada, he gave me vyasadeva and krsnadas kaviraja.

 

Am I skirting the issue? Dont mean to, but vaisnavism has thousands of jesus figures. Other schools are more apt to promote jesus figures, like the meher baba folks, sai bubbas, even the swaminarayana people who promote their jesus on these pages. I dont see it outside of rtvikism in the Gaudiya field, Ill be interested in what follows on this topic.

 

mahak

[Guruvani]

 

guru and gauranga are words held together, always. There is no one without the other.

 

mahak

 

yes, but in this purport Srila Prabhupada equates Guru-Gauranga with Sri-Sri Gaura-Nitai.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.31

 

 

For an ordinary man, worship of Śrī Caitanya and Nityānanda Prabhu or the Pañca-tattva is easier than worship of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Unless one is very fortunate, he should not be induced to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa directly. A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should not indulge in the worship of Śrī Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa or the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Even if he does so, he cannot get the desired result. One should therefore chant the names of Nitāi-Gaura and worship Them without false prestige. Since everyone within this material world is more or less influenced by sinful activities, in the beginning it is essential that one take to the worship of Guru-Gaurāńga and ask their favor, for thus despite all his disqualifications one will very soon become qualified to worship the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa vigraha.

 

It's very interesting too that in this purport Srila Prabhupada says that persons who are not sufficiently enlighted should not chant Hare Krishna.

For them they should chant the Panca-tattva mantra or the names of Nitai-Gauranga.

 

Very interesting....

[theist]

 

Who is the Jesus of Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

I would say Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu without question.

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

[Guruvani]

 

I dont see it outside of rtvikism in the Gaudiya field, Ill be interested in what follows on this topic.

 

mahak

 

Yes, the ritviks seem to promote Srila Prabhupada as the modern Jesus-like figure of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

He might be the Jesus of ISKCON and I have never had a problem with that, but ISKCON is only one branch of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with Srila Prabhupada being the JESUS of ISKCON.

But, I do not limit the Gaudiya sampradaya to only being represented by ISKCON.

[Laulyam]

Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else’s.

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.

 

In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:

<CENTER>tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

</CENTER>"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth."

Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly.

[suchandra]

 

Yes, the ritviks seem to promote Srila Prabhupada as the modern Jesus-like figure of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

He might be the Jesus of ISKCON and I have never had a problem with that, but ISKCON is only one branch of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with Srila Prabhupada being the JESUS of ISKCON.

But, I do not limit the Gaudiya sampradaya to only being represented by ISKCON.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with Guruvani prabhu being the JESUS of ISKCON.

But, I do not limit the Gaudiya sampradaya to only being represented by ISKCON as long ISKCON seems to stuck....

[Guruvani]

 

I would say Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu without question.

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

our first vote for Mahaprabhu as the Jesus of the Gaudiyas.

[suchandra]

 

our first vote for Mahaprabhu as the Jesus of the Gaudiyas.

 

Another thing could be that bhajans like this are missing - bhajans who are so full of real devotional feeling. Only HH Vishnujana Swami came close to it.

 

[Guruvani]

 

Another thing could be that bhajans like this are missing - bhajans who are so full of real devotional feeling. Only HH Vishnujana Swami came close to it.

 

 

 

But, Jesus said he was THE ONLY WAY because no man can come to God but through him.

 

How does Vishnujana Maharaja compare to the conception of a central saviour within a particular sampradaya.

 

I don't see the comparison in a devotee like Vishnujana Maharaja.

 

Can any man come to Goloka except through Mahaprabhu?

[suchandra]

 

But, Jesus said he was THE ONLY WAY because no man can come to God but through him.

 

How does Vishnujana Maharaja compare to the conception of a central saviour within a particular sampradaya.

 

I don't see the comparison in a devotee like Vishnujana Maharaja.

 

Can any man come to Goloka except through Mahaprabhu?

This is of course right - thing is probably that Jesus' biography is so heartbreaking for all kind of people, it's hard to surpass this scenario of dieing on a cross and at the same time this is being done to extinguish your sinful living. Next, how he was born, his parents were on the run, he was born in a cowshed, etc. It is all so dramatic. Is there something similiar in Vaishnavism? At least it doesnt move the heart of Westerners like Jesus did.

[Guruvani]

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with Guruvani prabhu being the JESUS of ISKCON.

But, I do not limit the Gaudiya sampradaya to only being represented by ISKCON as long ISKCON seems to stuck....

 

I would more like a Jagai or Madhai of ISKCON.

 

But, I am not much of and ISKCON man anymore because as far as I am concerend ISKCON is gone.

 

It departed for Goloka with Srila Prabhupada when he went back home.

 

Now we have a Maya ISKCON like Sitadevi became Mahadevi when she was captured by Ravana.

[Guruvani]

 

This is of course right - thing is probably that Jesus' biography is so heartbreaking for all kind of people, it's hard to surpass this scenario of dieing on a cross and at the same time this is being done to extinguish your sinful living. Next, how he was born, his parents were on the run, he was born in a cowshed, etc. It is all so dramatically. Is there something similiar in Vaishnavism? At least it doesnt move the heart of Westerners like Jesus did.

 

But, when Haridas was being caned in all the market places, Mahaprabhu accepted all that pain and punishment himself and had the marks on his back to prove it.

So, Mahaprabhu also absorbs the suffering of his devotees like the Christian Jesus.

[suchandra]

 

But, when Haridas was being caned in all the market places, Mahaprabhu accepted all that pain and punishment himself and had the marks on his back to prove it.

So, Mahaprabhu also absorbs the suffering of his devotees like the Christian Jesus.

It is probably that all this is NOT presented properly for the understanding of the Westerners mentality. It is all presented in such a way that Westerners can't be fascinated. What could that be, faulty packing, missing film adaptation? Yes, it is Bollywood! Bollywood didnt make wonderful films about Ramayana etc, all cheap halfhearted botch. The many film adaptation of Jesus' life is done first class.

[theist]

 

But, Jesus said he was THE ONLY WAY because no man can come to God but through him.

 

How does Vishnujana Maharaja compare to the conception of a central saviour within a particular sampradaya.

 

I don't see the comparison in a devotee like Vishnujana Maharaja.

 

Can any man come to Goloka except through Mahaprabhu?

 

Most Bible scholars say that that verse "The only Way.." is an interplotation and not the words of Christ but a later add on. But even so it is correct when seen through theeyse of Vaisnava teaching.

 

To make sense of such a statement one must realize who and what Jesus is. He is not speaking as false ego glorifying himself he is speaking a pure ego glorifying pure bhakti to krsna. IOW's the pure bhakta IS bhakti personified. Bhakti personified in each of us is the only way to God.

 

Any suddha bhakta can say the same for they are one in the nature of their pure loving devotion.

 

" Can any man come to Goloka except through Mahaprabhu?"

 

I would say no in the same sense. He is the reservoir of all these loving moods which are particular to the mood of Vraja. "Sri Krsna Caitanya Radha Krsna nahe anya" He is Radha Krsna combined. He is especially tasting the mood of Srimati Radharani. How can anyone enter Vraja lila without her grace? And how can one get her grace without the grace of Mahaprabhu who actually IS Her grace.

[Guruvani]

 

Bollywood didnt make wonderful films about Ramayana etc, all cheap halfhearted botch.

 

But my outlook is that if ISKCON had not floundered after the passing od Srila Prabhupada, due to a bad post-samadhi plan by the GBC, that ISKCON would have flourished such that very wonderful and marvelous movies and videos about Mahaprabhu Avatar could have been within reach and inspiring millions of people to appreciate the KC movement and millions of people could have been enlightened.

A first class documentary on the life of Mahaprabhu could have immeasurable effect on the whole world.

[Guruvani]

 

 

" Can any man come to Goloka except through Mahaprabhu?"

 

I would say no in the same sense. He is the reservoir of all these loving moods which are particular to the mood of Vraja.

 

Agreed.

I think that without Mahaprabhu nobody is going to Goloka to serve Krishna.

[suchandra]

 

 

"Can any man come to Goloka except through Mahaprabhu?"

 

 

The actual thing what happened is the picturization/film adaptation of Lord Jesus Christ's life and all the many different consequences up to all those films about Jean d'Arc and the life of the apostles, or the Name of the Rose.

Hollywoods work, that is what made Jesus really getting into peoples mind. All those films made in India are just flub compared to what Hollywood did. Are there films being made about Lord Caitanya? Only stuff you better don't look at. It is all like embarrassing laymen theater what they produced in Bollywood about Krishna-lila and Lord Caitanya. And here lies the crux - Westerners grow up with tv - because they made so many wonderful films about Jesus therefore he will always be number one in the West. Bollywood is a great disservice and a shame. And just imagine the wonderful backdrop of India's landscape they had. Now these Bollywood idiots make hundreds of stupid films in Switzerland and Austria - they think the Alps are beautiful.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with Guruvani prabhu being the JESUS of ISKCON.

 

Would somebody pass the hammer and nails?

[Guruvani]

 

Would somebody pass the hammer and nails?

 

I'll ship them UPS.

Give me your address.

[suchandra]

 

Would somebody pass the hammer and nails?

Good point, but there has to be first a disciplinary hearing.

Another thing is, millions of high value paintings of Jesus were painted....

Since through the Middle Ages there was no TV or modern printing press, all those paintings were done with such great care, nobody is able to paint like that today.

Now I heard that many ISKCON artists left their job to paint Krishna-lila art and work for the karmis. In this way, how we can expect that Krishna-lila is getting prepared in such a way to reach the Westerners perception?

[Guruvani]

This starting to become a Jesus topic rather than a topic about the who is the saviour in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Let stay on track folks.

Start another topic about Jesus if you like.

 

This topic is about Mahaprabhu - the Jesus of the Gaudiyas.