Love Against Terrorism

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Women in the west have been given all the liberties they have demanded.

 

It's not quite as simple as that to me.

 

I see "Women's Liberation" in similar terms to the "liberation" of the former colonies by the Europeans/US. Ostensibly, it's about freedom for the people living there. In practice, what we see is the same sort of colonial exploitation going on, but without the former *responsibility* the colonial powers had to maintain the well-being of their client-states.

 

So, men are certainly complicit in "Women's Lib" and not for purely selfless motivations. No doubt, whether consciously or not, many men welcome the "benefits" of "liberation".

 

 

Women in the west get decent treatment.

Nothing is perfect not even in Vedic culture.

 

My point is, if that's true, where do we get the gumption to be all high-and-mighty and superior to the Muslims?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

So, men are certainly complicit in "Women's Lib" and not for purely selfless motivations. No doubt, whether consciously or not, many men welcome the "benefits" of "liberation".

 

It used to be that, in many cultures, if a man had sex with a woman, he was then responsible for providing for and protecting her.

 

Now that women are "liberated", the men are free to have a one-night stand with them and send them on their way in the morning with no intention to ever call them, let alone see them again.

[theist]

 

I fail to see your point. The thought is that, when there is a strong deterrent against breaking laws, folks will be more hesitant to break them. Thus women (and men) ought to be more "protected" from the ills of "sin" overall.

 

Well, if you're a death penalty proponent, then you'd have to admit the deterrent factor of being stoned to death in public has got to be greater than being executed behind closed doors by the government the way it is done in most Western countries (that have the death penalty).

 

 

You are really blowing my mind Murali. OK let's start cutting off the lips of all ganja smokers in the US where it is against the law. That should prevent people from taking up the evil weed and protect them from the ills of society. Sound good to you? I didn't think so.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Individually and collectively, we all have choices. Choices about which laws to create and how to enforce them are made at a collective level. Individuals may disagree with the collective choice, but are still obliged (under threat of some penalty) to comply with those choices.

 

What irks me is when folks from a particular culture get self-righteously indignant about another culture's choices, especially when their own culture of origin has made many questionable choices itself.

 

That said, cutting off the lips of ganja smokers would certainly be much more effective a deterrent than writing them a ticket (for possession of less than an ounce).

 

 

You are really blowing my mind Murali. OK let's start cutting off the lips of all ganja smokers in the US where it is against the law. That should prevent people from taking up the evil weed and protect them from the ills of society. Sound good to you? I didn't think so.

[theist]

 

Individually and collectively, we all have choices. Choices about which laws to create and how to enforce them are made at a collective level. Individuals may disagree with the collective choice, but are still obliged (under threat of some penalty) to comply with those choices.

 

What irks me is when folks from a particular culture get self-righteously indignant about another culture's choices, especially when their own culture of origin has made many questionable choices itself.

 

Well I see some basic human rights that transcend cultural distinctions. As in slavery of other humans is wrong no matter who does it under whatever laws they may have written for themselves.

 

 

That said, cutting off the lips of ganja smokers would certainly be much more effective a deterrent than writing them a ticket (for possession of less than an ounce).

Yeah I know. But it was a rhetorical question to show how completely absurd the idea of penalties being levied just for the sake of deterrents is. There is also the idea of justice meaning the penalty must fit the crime. You know like stoning a woman to death for adultry or shooting woman in the head in a soccer stadium for not covering her face in public may be going overboard a bit.

 

Perhaps give yourself some time to rethink your defence of these sub-humans and read the account of how Christ dealt with those that wanted to stone a woman and who brought her before Christ and asked what should be done with her. Remember His response. "He that is without sin can cast the first stone." All the would-be stone throwers left the area ashamed with their heads down.

 

You should lighten upon the woman prabhu afterll we so-called men of today don't measure up to some righteous Vedic standard for manhood ourselves. Maybe the women should stone us for our failings.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What do you mean by "lighten upon the woman"? Am I somehow being harsh to women? I'm trying *not* to make any value judgements here, simply point out the hypocrisy of pointing fingers at others (the "let he who is without sin" concept you bring up) when our own houses are far from clean.

 

"*Everybody* must get stoned" --Bob Dylan

 

Jai Radhe!!! (22 more minutes of fasting )

 

 

You should lighten upon the woman prabhu afterll we so-called men of today don't measure up to some righteous Vedic standard for manhood ourselves. Maybe the women should stone us for our failings.

[theist]

 

What do you mean by "lighten upon the woman"? Am I somehow being harsh to women? I'm trying *not* to make any value judgements here, simply point out the hypocrisy of pointing fingers at others (the "let he who is without sin" concept you bring up) when our own houses are far from clean.

 

"*Everybody* must get stoned" --Bob Dylan

 

Jai Radhe!!! (22 more minutes of fasting )

 

I think you are underestimating the barbaric nature of being stoned to death.

 

Just because some man may have slapped his wife in the past doesn't mean he is disqualified from intewrvening when he sees his neighbor beating his wife to death with a bat.

 

I find all these old so-called religious codes found in the Old Testament of the Jews, the Sharia laws of the Muslims and the Manu Samhita of the Vedic period to rather grotesque personally and I question the divinity of their origin to begin with.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I think you are underestimating the barbaric nature of being stoned to death.

 

I've seen some videos. I was horrified. It also stands to reason that these events are not frequent occurrences.

 

 

Just because some man may have slapped his wife in the past doesn't mean he is disqualified from intewrvening when he sees his neighbor beating his wife to death with a bat.

 

I don't accept that analogy. To me, it's more like meddling with our neighbors while our wives are having on-line affairs because of our crappy attitudes and our daughters are slashing their wrists because their lives are so meaningless and there's no way they can live up the ideals of beauty that surround them.

 

We ("we" being the USA) have no business trying to fix anybody else's culture while ours is spiralling rapidly downwards.

 

 

I find all these old so-called religious codes found in the Old Testament of the Jews, the Sharia laws of the Muslims and the Manu Samhita of the Vedic period to rather grotesque personally and I question the divinity of their origin to begin with.

 

I'm with you here.

[theist]

Let me explain my perspect in a more clear way Murali. I don't see myself as the USA. I see the USA as an entity external to myself which can have an effect on on another entity external to myself in this case the Muslim countries.

 

Now not all of the effects will be truly benefical in a higher sense. here is a good example that shows truth to your point of view. A couple years back some co., Revlon I think, wanted to take advantage of the "liberation" of women in Afghanistan and did by sending over representives to offer workshops showing the Afghani women how to apply make-up to achieve a more western look!!! That truly is a form of madness. I agree the false concept of beauty is a subtle form of slavery. But you know there are male counterparts to that kind of pressure also which you are neglecting to mention.

 

Anyway I see it as "Plucking out a thorn with another thorn." If I have one enemy which is a bigger threat to me then another enemy, I am happy to see the bigger enemy killed by the lesser enemy. This does not mean I am a cent per cent backer of the lesser enemy, he is still my enemy but now my position is a little more secure.

 

Oh and BTW stonings are not rare they are common place. What is rare is a video being smuggled out to show the actual deed. Same with so-called honor killings.

[Guruvani]

This is a topic where Theist and myself seem to be in agreement.

As such, I don't think I will be posting anymore on this topic.

I'll let him speak for both of us.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Anyway I see it as "Plucking out a thorn with another thorn." If I have one enemy which is a bigger threat to me then another enemy, I am happy to see the bigger enemy killed by the lesser enemy. This does not mean I am a cent per cent backer of the lesser enemy, he is still my enemy but now my position is a little more secure.

 

Fair enough. It is all the will of the Lord, somehow.

 

 

Oh and BTW stonings are not rare they are common place. What is rare is a video being smuggled out to show the actual deed. Same with so-called honor killings.

 

Do you have a reference for that? Iran doesn't issue statistics regarding capital punishment there, but the Amnesty International figure was in the mid-100s for last year. Of those, I can't imagine many were women.

 

Furthermore, I found a page yesterday that claims that a top religious authority in Iran has issued a fatwah *against* the issuing of death-sentences by stoning.

 

Right now, there is a propaganda war going on regarding Iran (and Muslims in general). I would treat any "information" about Iran that is currently circulating as suspect.

[theist]

 

Fair enough. It is all the will of the Lord, somehow.

 

 

 

Do you have a reference for that? Iran doesn't issue statistics regarding capital punishment there, but the Amnesty International figure was in the mid-100s for last year. Of those, I can't imagine many were women.

 

Furthermore, I found a page yesterday that claims that a top religious authority in Iran has issued a fatwah *against* the issuing of death-sentences by stoning.

 

Right now, there is a propaganda war going on regarding Iran (and Muslims in general). I would treat any "information" about Iran that is currently circulating as suspect.

 

Guruvani and I are on the same page with this one. I like that.

 

As for you whippersnapper that is a different story. I believe the words of those who smuggle the tapes out risking their lives to do so over ant offical stats issued by the govt. of Iran. But using Amnesties figures of mid 100's we will call that 150 or so to me that is a hell of alot of stoning people to death. That is one ever 2 1/2 days or so. And you "imagine" not many were woman. Well I imagine they may have all been women.

 

Anyway this is more of a World Review thread anyway so this is my last post here about it. If it pops up on the proper thread I may join in.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Anyway this is more of a World Review thread anyway so this is my last post here about it. If it pops up on the proper thread I may join in.

 

Well, we turned it into one with our knee-jerk reactions.

 

The original point stands: as aspiring Vaishnavas it behooves us to distribute love of Godhead to any and all--even those we may consider to be "sub-human".

 

From that nice quote of Jagai and Madai that was recently posted, it's clear that the Lord came to deliver the *most* fallen, not just the slightly fallen.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Well, we turned it into one with our knee-jerk reactions.

 

Maybe you don't notice, but it's quite obvious when your knee and Guruvani's knee are jerking and when you're actually putting some thought into your comments.

 

I can't blame you, though. From your conditioning, seeing the word "terrorist" elicits an acid reflux of hatred and a total forgetfullness of Sri Krishna, which is the same thing that happens when Guruvani sees the word "Jesus".

 

I have my own conditioned responses, to be sure.

[theist]

 

Maybe you don't notice, but it's quite obvious when your knee and Guruvani's knee are jerking and when you're actually putting some thought into your comments.

 

I can't blame you, though. From your conditioning, seeing the word "terrorist" elicits an acid reflux of hatred and a total forgetfullness of Sri Krishna, which is the same thing that happens when Guruvani sees the word "Jesus".

 

I have my own conditioned responses, to be sure.

 

What a pompous thing to say.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

What a pompous thing to say.

 

Pompous but true?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Yeah right. Let's all sing Kum-by-ya and all the mean nasty terrorists will just leave us alone.

 

This one is pompous *and* snide.

 

Live by the pompous, die by the pompous.

[theist]

 

Pompous but true?

No pompous and wrong. I used the example of Arjuna being incited to fight by Krsna while he himself wanted to leave the battlefield and play peaceful brahmana. That is not knee jerk anything that is the core of this philosophy. Were you not brought up hearing Bhagavad-gita from infancy? How has this hippie mind think overcome you? Brahmana's generally avoid battlefields where swords arrows and nukes are flying around taking limbs and lives while Ksyatriyas are to "be happy when such fighting oppurtunities come to them unsought opening the door to the heavenly realms."

 

if you are a brahmana pacifist you don't preach that everyone else should be a brahmana pacifist, you preach that everyone must act according to their nature and offer the results to Krsna.

 

"Do thou fight for the sake of fighting..."

 

Perhaps the twitch is in your own knee Murali. I believe the philosophy as taught by Srila Prabhupada backs up my position and I am prepared to thoughtfully defend it.

[theist]

 

This one is pompous *and* snide.

 

Live by the pompous, die by the pompous.

 

Certainly meant to be dripping with sarcasm.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The below drives home why it is safest for us to focus on Sriman Mahaprabhu, even to the exclusion of Sri Sri Radha Krishna.

 

To me, Mahaprabhu's teachings in Siksastakam take precedence over anything said by even Sri Krishna Himself. "Humility, giving honor to others, and tolerance" is the guiding principle.

 

Sri Krishna came for the previous age. Nityananda dethroned Balarama and declared Mahaprabhu supreme.

 

There are no kshatriyas today from where I'm sitting.

 

Love the terrorists. There is no other way.

 

 

No pompous and wrong. I used the example of Arjuna being incited to fight by Krsna while he himself wanted to leave the battlefield and play peaceful brahmana. That is not knee jerk anything that is the core of this philosophy. Were you not brought up hearing Bhagavad-gita from infancy? How has this hippie mind think overcome you? Brahmana's generally avoid battlefields where swords arrows and nukes are flying around taking limbs and lives while Ksyatriyas are to "be happy when such fighting oppurtunities come to them unsought opening the door to the heavenly realms."

 

if you are a brahmana pacifist you don't preach that everyone else should be a brahmana pacifist, you preach that everyone must act according to their nature and offer the results to Krsna.

 

"Do thou fight for the sake of fighting..."

 

Perhaps the twitch is in your own knee Murali. I believe the philosophy as taught by Srila Prabhupada backs up my position and I am prepared to thoughtfully defend it.

[theist]

Love everyone of course because the person THE SOUL is neither terrorist or good citizen.

 

But still the Ksyatriya must act as a protector of the innocent.

 

Loving someone does not make one impotent to do the needful. How about some love for the future would be victims of terrorism. Forget about them? Someone comes to attack your family in your home some night (God forbid). What are you going to do. Ask the home invader to, "Please chant Hare Krsna dear soul."

 

Hippy philosophy and you try to attach Nityananda's name to it.

[Guruvani]

Theist, you just don't understand.

 

In Santa Cruz, California "it's all good bro".

[theist]

 

Theist, you just don't understand.

 

In Santa Cruz, California "it's all good bro".

 

Oh that's right. Close our eyes and say "It's a happy day" three times and all our troubles disappear.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Prahlada Maharaja didn't need any depleted uranium munitions. His faith in his "hippy" mantra made all his troubles disappear.

 

I'm glad you see my point, though, about love. I agree with you that sometimes violence may be called for, but there's no reason why we cannot love and feel some compassion for those who are our aggressors while defending that which we hold dear. Truly, we may be blinded by anger and hate.

 

It's one thing to tolerate the smelly street-person at the Sunday Feast, but our faith in the Lord is truly tested when we face those who, for whatever reason, wish us harm.

 

 

Oh that's right. Close our eyes and say "It's a happy day" three times and all our troubles disappear.

[theist]

 

Prahlada Maharaja didn't need any depleted uranium munitions. His faith in his "hippy" mantra made all his troubles disappear.

 

I'm glad you see my point, though, about love. I agree with you that sometimes violence may be called for, but there's no reason why we cannot love and feel some compassion for those who are our aggressors while defending that which we hold dear. Truly, we may be blinded by anger and hate.

 

It's one thing to tolerate the smelly street-person at the Sunday Feast, but our faith in the Lord is truly tested when we face those who, for whatever reason, wish us harm.

 

Neither you or I are anything close to being Prahlada, Jesus Christ, or Haridas Thakur. But don't you see that for every Haridas there is a Hanuman who gave sever lessons to Ravanna. Or Parasurama.

 

So you agree violence may sometimes becalled for. If you don't see that that time is now in opposition to these Muslim extremists then there is little hope for you.

 

Perhaps you could give an example of a tme when that violence you spoke of is called for. That would go far to clarify your position.