Love Against Terrorism

[krishnadasa]

Look guys, the equation is simple

 

Create the element for destruction and it will come and kill you

 

 

US created a Bomb and now its killing US..

 

Had US not created it, perhaps ther wouldnt be any suicide attacks.

afterall Muhammad didnt know that US in the future at all create any bombs which can be used for " Jehad"

[theist]

 

Look guys, the equation is simple

 

Create the element for destruction and it will come and kill you

 

 

 

Oh is this a metaphysical truth of some kind? Remember Kysatriyas were supposedly able to throw tactical nukes called brahmastras by mantra. Does that mean that it's ok to now nuke India?

 

There may be some truth in your equation but not left as such an ill defined blanket statement like the above quote. Care to refine it krsnadasa?

[Guruvani]

Well, France is ready to lauch a pre-emptive strike against Iran if they don't back down from their nuclear ambitions.

 

I am glad to see that the USA and Britain are not the only world leaders that are willing to use force to stop Islam from getting nuclear weapons.

 

Setting back and letting Islamic radicals get nuclear weapons is worse than stupid.

 

At least in the democatric western countries the KC movement is allowed freedom of expression and religious canvassing.

 

Any country that does not allow that is up for annihilation as far as I am concerned.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Neither you or I are anything close to being Prahlada, Jesus Christ, or Haridas Thakur. But don't you see that for every Haridas there is a Hanuman who gave sever lessons to Ravanna. Or Parasurama.

 

And neither of us are anything close to Arjuna, or Hanuman. What is your point? Are you saying that, instead of trying to be brahmanas and doing a poor job, we ought to try to be kshatriyas and to a poor job (while killling innocent people)?

 

 

So you agree violence may sometimes becalled for. If you don't see that that time is now in opposition to these Muslim extremists then there is little hope for you.

 

Perhaps you could give an example of a tme when that violence you spoke of is called for. That would go far to clarify your position.

 

Not long ago, I quoted Param-Gurudev saying that we should not sit idly by or offer our respects when someone comes to harm the Deities or the Devotees. That is an instance in which violence might be justified.

 

As for Muslim extemists, they don't worry me in the least. I fear my own government far more than I fear them. Even if I concede that the 9/11 attacks were not in any way supported or intentionally allowed to happen by the US Government, the "terrorists" attacked a symbol of all that I find reprehensible and disgusting in this world--the rampant greed and disregard for human and animal suffering that consumes the West and threatens to consume the East.

 

The Muslim extremists are not shooting up cars full of American civilians. Rather, it's US troops shooting up cars full of Muslims (many of which are not extremists, presumably).

 

If we value freedom of religion, then the Muslims should be free to practice their faith as they see fit, provided they do so in a manner which does not disrupt others.

 

Unless I am mistaken, most Muslims live in countries where they are free to leave if they do not like the conditions.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

At least in the democatric western countries the KC movement is allowed freedom of expression and religious canvassing.

 

In your ideal Varnashrama society, would you tolerate Mormon or other Christian missionaries?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Ksatriyas do not rape and kill a 14-year old girl after she just watched her family being gunned down.

 

Ksatriyas do not associate with folks who would do that.

 

 

Neither you or I are anything close to being Prahlada, Jesus Christ, or Haridas Thakur. But don't you see that for every Haridas there is a Hanuman who gave sever lessons to Ravanna. Or Parasurama.

[Guruvani]

 

In your ideal Varnashrama society, would you tolerate Mormon or other Christian missionaries?

In varnashrama society there were all kinds of religions; shaktas, shaivas,suriyas, moon-god worship, Advaitins, etc. etc.

 

As long as another religion did not suppress or assault other religions then I would think they would be welcomed.

 

However, the Vedic kings would have shut-down the slaughter houses of the Christians and if they didn't obey the Vedic laws of non-violence to animals they would be attacked and defeated and forced to comply or die.

 

In the Vedic law animals can only be killed in religious sacrifices.

Anyone disobeying that law would be forced to obey on the strength of military force.

 

But, your question seems to be irrelevant to me.

We live in a democractic society, so the hypothetical you have proposed is moot.

[theist]

 

Ksatriyas do not rape and kill a 14-year old girl after she just watched her family being gunned down.

 

Ksatriyas do not associate with folks who would do that.

 

 

 

???????????????

 

I don't see where I have anything more to add to this topic with you Murali.

[Guruvani]

 

Ksatriyas do not rape and kill a 14-year old girl after she just watched her family being gunned down.

 

Ksatriyas do not associate with folks who would do that.

There is a saying of Chanakya Pandit that goes something like "Sometimes in order to save the family you must sacrifice a member of the family. Sometimes in order to save the village you might have to sacrifice a family. Sometimes in order to save the country you must sacrifice a village."

 

He goes on to say that sometimes in order to save your own soul you might have to sacrifice the whole world.

 

But, his point is meaningful.

 

Sure, there are thousands of innocents that have died in the war to save the world from Saddam Hussein.

It is a sad but necessary price to pay for the welfare of mankind.

 

Sure, occasionally a soldier will violate the codes of armed conflict and kill innocent people.

 

However, it is a necessary evil that comes with the task of saving the world from tyrants and madmen who make the world too dangerous to just let them go and do as they wish.

 

In a perfect war no innocent people would be killed.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect war.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

???????????????

 

I don't see where I have anything more to add to this topic with you Murali.

 

You're said that more than once now.

 

If you think these guys are Kshatriyas, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1810326,00.html

 

 

Five US soldiers in Iraq rape and murder inquiry

 

· Pentagon pursues fourth war crime investigation

· Woman's body burnt and family killed in home

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington

Saturday July 1, 2006

The Guardian

US Marines question men in a family house in Ramadi, Iraq. Photo: Jacob Silberberg/AP

 

The Pentagon said yesterday it was pursuing a new war crimes investigation into five American soldiers, alleged to have raped and murdered a young Iraqi woman and killed three members of her family in their home.Yesterday's investigation is the fourth alleged war crime in Iraq to come to light in a matter of weeks, putting the Pentagon's legal system to its most stringent test since the Vietnam war.

In the latest suspected war crime, it is believed the woman's body was burnt, and that a child was killed along with two other Iraqi adults in the family's home.

<!-- This site/section combo is not set up to show MPU's -->The alleged rape and murders are believed to have taken place in the town of Mahmoudiya, about 18 miles south of Baghdad several months ago. The events were brought to the attention of the authorities on June 23 by two soldiers who saw blood on their comrades' clothing and heard them talking about the incident.

A day later the army launched an investigation. "A preliminary inquiry conducted by MND-Baghdad found sufficient information existed to recommend a criminal investigation into the incident," according to a statement released yesterday.

Military officials in Baghdad and Washington gave only sparse details of the incident. However, it is believed that at least one of the soldiers had confessed to involvement in the incident and four had had their weapons taken away and were confined to barracks. All are believed to be enlisted men.

The investigation, ordered by Major General James Thurman, the commander of coalition forces in Iraq, was announced at a time when the Pentagon is under severe pressure to improve the image of its troops - and its judicial system - following a series of high-profile atrocities against Iraqi civilians.

The most damaging of these are the events in the town of Haditha last November in which US Marines are accused of killing two dozen Iraqi civilians in retaliation for the death of one of their own in a roadside bombing. Separate Marine units attempted to cover up the deaths.

The killings, which have been widely likened to the notorious My Lai massacre at Vietnam, might never have come to light if not for a report in Time magazine.

More recent episodes have also exposed efforts by soldiers to cover up crimes against Iraqi civilians. Last week four enlisted men were charged with killing three Iraqi men at a former chemical plant and threatening a fellow soldier if he reported the deaths.

Meanwhile, seven Marines and one sailor were charged with killing a disabled Iraqi man in the town of Hamdania, west of Baghdad, placing a shovel near his body to suggest he had been planting a makeshift bomb.

On this occasion, however, the Pentagon appears to have responded with almost unprecedented speed, announcing it had launched an investigation within days of the incident.

"They are probably getting better at recognising that one part of transparency is timely transparency," said Eugene Fidell, a military lawyer in Washington.

The soldiers in the most recent investigation are believed to be members of the 502nd Infantry Regiment, based in Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Two weeks ago two soldiers from the same platoon were kidnapped by an al-Qaida affiliate at a checkpoint in the town of Yusufiya, 12 miles south of the Iraqi capital. Several days later, their brutalised and beheaded corpses, rigged with explosives, were discovered on waste ground near an electrical plant in the town.

Soldiers from the unit have been undergoing stress counselling since the capture and killing of the two men.

However, a military official told Associated Press news agency that the killing appeared to be unrelated to the kidnappings, describing them as a "crime of opportunity". The soldiers had not been under attack and had noticed the woman on previous patrols.

Until the two soldiers came forward, officers had believed the family's death was due to sectarian violence in the town.

 

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[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But, your question seems to be irrelevant to me.

We live in a democractic society, so the hypothetical you have proposed is moot.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply regarding religion under Varnashram. I may not accept all of your points, but I won't challenge any of them.

 

Regarding the above quote "we" in the US live in an *ostensibly* democratic society (let's not even go there).

 

People in Saudi Arabia live in a monarchy. Even folks living in a Muslim democracy ought to have the rights to protect their children from predatory missionaries.

 

I imagine Christian missionaries are seen in devout Muslim countries in the same manner that folks in the US see child molesters--they are corrupters of the youth.

 

Of course, in other cultures, having sex with children might be seen as acceptable, just as killing cows is seen as acceptable in the West.

 

As long as the government is not keeping folks who dislike the established system from leaving and going elsewhere, I have no issue with them trying to preserve the purity of their faith.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

If we want to rid the world of tyrants, let's start at home. Let's banish the tyrant that's dwelling in our own heart. Let's topple the tyrant in the mirror.

 

After that, let's topple the tryrant leading the US into a bottomless abyss of misery.

 

If you believe Saddam was a threat to the world and not just tiny, corrupt Arab states surrounding Iraq, then you're crazier than the Decider!!

 

As far as "occasional" abuse, I'm of the mind that what we see in the news is just the tip of the iceberg. Usually, the coverups (involving destruction of evidence, intimidation of witnesses, etc.) are successful in suppressing the truth.

 

This "war" (which is really a terrorist action) is rotten to the core.

 

 

There is a saying of Chanakya Pandit that goes something like "Sometimes in order to save the family you must sacrifice a member of the family. Sometimes in order to save the village you might have to sacrifice a family. Sometimes in order to save the country you must sacrifice a village."

 

He goes on to say that sometimes in order to save your own soul you might have to sacrifice the whole world.

 

But, his point is meaningful.

 

Sure, there are thousands of innocents that have died in the war to save the world from Saddam Hussein.

It is a sad but necessary price to pay for the welfare of mankind.

 

Sure, occasionally a soldier will violate the codes of armed conflict and kill innocent people.

 

However, it is a necessary evil that comes with the task of saving the world from tyrants and madmen who make the world too dangerous to just let them go and do as they wish.

 

In a perfect war no innocent people would be killed.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect war.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I still say we need to love the terrorists--starting with their ringleader, George W. Bush.

[Guruvani]

 

 

If you think these guys are Kshatriyas, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

 

 

They are modern Ksatriyas.

They are not vedic Ksatriyas but they are military men.

Military men are known as Ksatriya in the Vedic culture.

 

If it wasn't for the modern Ksatriyas defending your freedom you wouldn't be on the computer now speaking freely as you wish.

 

You sound like a typical immature person who doesn't appreciate the sacrifice and struggle that the American military men have been through to protect the freedoms you take advantage of daily.

 

Maybe one day you will get enough life experience that you will grow out of your "rebel without a cause" phase and start to appeciate the country that Srila Prabhupada chose to launch the global Sankirtan movement.

 

You are just speaking from immaturity as far as I am concerned.

 

I did a stint in the US Navy and have a lot of appreciation for the military might of the USA.

 

You?

Too young and naive to get the picture and appreciate the "karmis" that have fought and died for your freedom.

[Guruvani]

 

I still say we need to love the terrorists--starting with their ringleader, George W. Bush.

 

Grow-up.

You sound like one of them pot-smoking hippies from Santa Cruz, California.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

All I can say to that is: how much does Costa Rica spend on its military to keep it safe?

 

There are many "free" societies in this world that manage to stay free without raping and pillaging their neighbors.

 

Our military is doing nothing to preserve my "freedoms". They are doing lots to make life more dangerous for me, though.

 

 

They are modern Ksatriyas.

They are not vedic Ksatriyas but they are military men.

Military men are known as Ksatriya in the Vedic culture.

 

If it wasn't for the modern Ksatriyas defending your freedom you wouldn't be on the computer now speaking freely as you wish.

 

You sound like a typical immature person who doesn't appreciate the sacrifice and struggle that the American military men have been through to protect the freedoms you take advantage of daily.

 

Maybe one day you will get enough life experience that you will grow out of your "rebel without a cause" phase and start to appeciate the country that Srila Prabhupada chose to launch the global Sankirtan movement.

 

You are just speaking from immaturity as far as I am concerned.

 

I did a stint in the US Navy and have a lot of appreciation for the military might of the USA.

 

You?

Too young and naive to get the picture and appreciate the "karmis" that have fought and died for your freedom.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It's astounding that folks who are otherwise intelligent continue to spout such crap.

 

To any sincere student of history, such claims are seen for what they are--empty.

 

Every war in the past century has been about political/economic interests and have had very little to do whatsoever with "freedom".

 

If WWII was about "freedom", would we have allowed Russia to keep Poland under it's thumb after the war???? That's just one example of many, many, many.

 

 

You sound like a typical immature person who doesn't appreciate the sacrifice and struggle that the American military men have been through to protect the freedoms you take advantage of daily.

[Guruvani]

 

 

If you believe Saddam was a threat to the world and not just tiny, corrupt Arab states surrounding Iraq, then you're crazier than the Decider!!

 

 

The US invaded Iraq because the CIA was telling the White House that Saddam had thousands of tons of chemical and biological weapons.

 

Like most all Americans I supported the invasion.

 

I believe that Saddam did have biological and chemical weapons but managed to hide them good enough that they haven't found them to this day.

 

You are obviously very naive and uniformed about the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and the gassing of thousands of Kurds and torturing thousands of political enemies.

He took power in an armed overthrow of the goverment.

 

His two sons were monsters and I was very happy to hear that they died a violent and painful death.

 

Monsters should be killed if at all possible.

 

I supported the invasion, but I think we should have helped the Iraqis form a proper Islamic theocracy like most Muslims want.

 

If we could have encouraged them to form a nice Islamic theocracy then we would have been the liberators and friend of the Iraqi people.

 

I don't like the idea that we are cramming constitutional democracy down their throats.

 

Otherwise, I support the invasion of Iraq and the elimation of Saddam Hussein and his two monster boys.

 

The US didn't handle it right after the elimination of Saddam Hussein.

 

They should have supported an Islamic theocracy and we would have made a good friend in the middle-east.

[Guruvani]

 

It's astounding that folks who are otherwise intelligent continue to spout such crap.

 

To any sincere student of history, such claims are seen for what they are--empty.

 

Every war in the past century has been about political/economic interests and have had very little to do whatsoever with "freedom".

 

If WWII was about "freedom", would we have allowed Russia to keep Poland under it's thumb after the war???? That's just one example of many, many, many.

 

You political views are very naive and misguided.

I hope this country never falls in the hands of people like you.

 

You don't know as much as you think you do.

 

When you grow-up you will understand.

Right now you are spouting-off hippie philosophy and pot-head politics.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So, the Darfur situation in Sudan is a "civil war", but the gassing of the Kurds by Saddam demands an international invasion?????

 

How gullible can you be?

 

Of course we know Saddam has WMDs--we *SOLD* them to him when we were supporting him in his war against Iran!!

 

If you haven't seen it yet, you simply *must* take the time to see "Beyond Treason". It details a lot of this as well as our betrayal of our own troops by exposing them to all sorts of harmful stuff (depleted uranium munitions and untested vaccines being two of them).

 

Beyond Treason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0WVuNZ-b8s&mode=related&search

 

 

The US invaded Iraq because the CIA was telling the White House that Saddam had thousands of tons of chemical and biological weapons.

 

Like most all Americans I supported the invasion.

 

I believe that Saddam did have biological and chemical weapons but managed to hide them good enough that they haven't found them to this day.

 

You are obviously very naive and uniformed about the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and the gassing of thousands of Kurds and torturing thousands of political enemies.

He took power in an armed overthrow of the goverment.

 

His two sons were monsters and I was very happy to hear that they died a violent and painful death.

 

Monsters should be killed if at all possible.

 

I supported the invasion, but I think we should have helped the Iraqis form a proper Islamic theocracy like most Muslims want.

 

If we could have encouraged them to form a nice Islamic theocracy then we would have been the liberators and friend of the Iraqi people.

 

I don't like the idea that we are cramming constitutional democracy down their throats.

 

Otherwise, I support the invasion of Iraq and the elimation of Saddam Hussein and his two monster boys.

 

The US didn't handle it right after the elimination of Saddam Hussein.

 

They should have supported an Islamic theocracy and we would have made a good friend in the middle-east.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

And you and theist watch *way* too much TV!!

 

 

 

You political views are very naive and misguided.

I hope this country never falls in the hands of people like you.

 

You don't know as much as you think you do.

 

When you grow-up you will understand.

Right now you are spouting-off hippie philosophy and pot-head politics.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Much of this program consists of interviews with Iraq war veterans themselves and at least one of the weapons inspectors.

 

So, you don't have to take it from me, but *do* give a listen to the troops you claim to support.

 

 

If you haven't seen it yet, you simply *must* take the time to see "Beyond Treason". It details a lot of this as well as our betrayal of our own troops by exposing them to all sorts of harmful stuff (depleted uranium munitions and untested vaccines being two of them).

 

Beyond Treason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0WVuNZ-b8s&mode=related&search

[Guruvani]

 

So, the Darfur situation in Sudan is a "civil war", but the gassing of the Kurds by Saddam demands an international invasion?????

 

How gullible can you be?

They don't have biological and chemical weapons in Darfur that Islamic terroists can get their hands on.

It is an internal civil war.

 

Don't you understand grasshopper that a man can carry enough biological weapons in a handbag to destroy the whole human race?

 

You need to watch more TV!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"World War III--Let it be"

 

But let's not kid ourselves about it being a "just" war. It's all about the marriage of cats and dogs (and unconscionable war-profiteering).

 

 

They don't have biological and chemical weapons in Darfur that Islamic terroists can get their hands on.

It is an internal civil war.

 

Don't you understand grasshopper that a man can carry enough biological weapons in a handbag to destroy the whole human race?

 

You need to watch more TV!

[Guruvani]

 

"World War III--Let it be"

 

But let's not kid ourselves about it being a "just" war. It's all about the marriage of cats and dogs (and unconscionable war-profiteering).

As long as I am here enjoying the freedoms of a modern democratic society I will not bite the hand that feeds me.

 

I think WWIII should be about stamping out militant Islamic extremists.

We need to smash them like we smashed Japan in WWII.

 

That is the only thing they will respond to.

 

I hope the western coalition does destroy the Iranian army like they are planning to do already.

 

Let it be!

Halleluja!!!!

 

They calculate that it would take only 3 days to destroy the Iranian army.

We should do that and then get out of Iraq and let them sort it out themselves.

 

The difference is that we wouldn't invade Iran.

We would just turn their army into a smoldering heap and walk away.

Now that is a plan I can get behind.