Why did Srila Prabhupada promote the fairytale?

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying its best to bring people back to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in its pure form, but the pāṣaṇḍīs and atheists, who are cheaters, are so numerous that sometimes we become perplexed and wonder how to push this movement forward.

That is why he allowed the fairytale to perpetuate.

He was trying to find a way to preach without encouraging Mayavada.

 

But, the facts are that jivas don't fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha planets.

Srila Prabhupada allowed his children to think that because that is what they seemed to want to believe.

The truth however is not so simple.

 

Srila Prabhupada said he was perplexed.

So, the fall-from-goloka myth was allowed to spawn.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm glad you're out there finding quotes to balance out those of the "dreamers". Context is everything, and the quote you present puts everything into perspective.

 

From looking at the transcripts of his lectures and discussions, it's obvious how hard Srila Prabhupada struggled to present these transcendental concepts to us in a manner we would find accessible.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said he was perplexed.

So, the fall-from-goloka myth was allowed to spawn.

[theist]

Nonsense. He spoke very frankly and freely. What difference would such a thing as the "fall" have in terms of promoting Krsna consciousness in the west?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

That is why he allowed the fairytale to perpetuate.

He was trying to find a way to preach without encouraging Mayavada.

 

But, the facts are that jivas don't fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha planets.

Srila Prabhupada allowed his children to think that because that is what they seemed to want to believe.

The truth however is not so simple.

 

Srila Prabhupada said he was perplexed.

So, the fall-from-goloka myth was allowed to spawn.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada never said that.

It is just your imagination running away with you.

 

You are twisting and manipulating the words of Srila Prabhupada to match your fairytale.

 

Show me one statement where Srila Prabhupada ever said a pure devotee of Krishna from Goloka has ever fallen down.

 

You can't.

Because Srila Prabhupada never said that and he never intended to say that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: - So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down". 760708ed.wdc Conversations

 

Srila Prabhupada: - "Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT". 760708ed.wdc Conversations

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

 

 

 

 

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu

Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada writes: “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Nonsense. He spoke very frankly and freely. What difference would such a thing as the "fall" have in terms of promoting Krsna consciousness in the west?

If Srila Prabhupada says he was perplexed then I accept the message he wanted to send by that statement.

If he didn't want the readers of his books to understand the perplexity he felt in trying to spread the movement in a way that would not encourage Mayavada, then he wouldn't have wrote it in his books.

 

So, the nonsense is in not allowing Srila Prabhupada the right to be perplexed and struggling with exactly how he should present Krishna consciousness in a suitable form that he thought westerners could deal with.

 

In the end, the fall-from-goloka fairytale will be exposed as western devotees gather the genuine conclusions from shastra.

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: - So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down". 760708ed.wdc Conversations

 

 

You keep trying to deny the fact that the jivas in the brahmajyoti are also in Vaikuntha.

 

You need to understand that the brahmajyoti is the outerspace of Vaikuntha.

The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.

Get this through your head and quit accusing Krishna of letting his pure devotees fall down.

 

 

 

[shvu]

 

You keep trying to deny the fact that the jivas in the brahmajyoti are also in Vaikuntha.

 

You need to understand that the brahmajyoti is the outerspace of Vaikuntha.

The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.

Get this through your head and quit accusing Krishna of letting his pure devotees fall down.

 

 

 

Why is ths position a fairytale by Prabhupada? Is it not standard Gaudiya philosophy written down by people before him?

 

As an aside, other Vaishnava traditions all agree that liberation is irreversible. It is surprising that the Gaudiya school would take a different position on this. One takes countless births to get there and can yet fall again and will have to redo everything all over again is a depressing thought.

 

Holding the position that liberation is reversible is also in complete contrast with Krishna's statement in Gita 8.16.

 

Cheers

[Guruvani]

 

Why is ths position a fairytale by Prabhupada? Is it not standard Gaudiya philosophy written down by people before him?

 

 

No.

The fall-from-goloka/vaikuntha idea is not accepted or promoted by any senior disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarastwati Thakur or any genuine Gaudiya Vaishnava.

It is an idea that is exclusive to ISKCON type devotees.

It was manufactured by the hippies that joined the Krishna movement of Srila Prabhupada.

It is found nowhere in shastra.

It is a myth that has been erroneously extrapolated from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Before ISKCON, no Gaudiya Vaishnavas ever promoted any falldown from pure devotion to the personal form of Krishna.

Such a theory contradicts Lord Krishna, Srimad Bhagavatam and all the writings of the direct disciples of Mahaprabhu.

[Pita das]

Guruvani Srila Prabhupada did not like waisting time on endless orgin debates

to continue to do so is useless.To aquate the words of the acraya as fairy tales will not help you in your progress to reawaken your dormate Krishna Consciousness.It seems you walk on thin ice and are about to fall in.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani Srila Prabhupada did not like waisting time on endless orgin debates

to continue to do so is useless.To aquate the words of the acraya as fairy tales will not help you in your progress to reawaken your dormate Krishna Consciousness.It seems you walk on thin ice and are about to fall in.

 

It not a matter of "origins".

 

It is a matter of foolish devotees promoting falibility of liberated pure devotees and the failure of Krishna to protect his pure devotees from the witch of Maya.

 

If the "origins" debate was not important then why did the GBC commission an official position paper to be written about it.

 

It's not just about origins.

 

It's about deviating from Gaudiya siddhanta and promoting false conclusions that create schisms in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya.

 

ISKCON mythologies are not going to help spread Krishna consciousness.

They are unnecessary and worse than useless.

 

Srila Prabhupada was a simple man.

He wasn't a superman.

 

He was human.

He was perplexed about exactly how to push forward the KC movement in the western world.

 

I don't see Srila Prabhupada as a superman.

He was a simple Vaishnava from India trying to find a forumula for preaching to mlecchas and hippies.

It worked good for a time.

 

That time is gone.

Western people are starting to see beyond the ISKCON fairytales.

[Pita das]

western people have not started yet .Now you want to cristise Krishna also who are you to be so intelligent.?This kind of intelligence dooms one

[shiva]

 

You keep trying to deny the fact that the jivas in the brahmajyoti are also in Vaikuntha.

 

You need to understand that the brahmajyoti is the outerspace of Vaikuntha.

The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.

Get this through your head and quit accusing Krishna of letting his pure devotees fall down.

 

 

 

 

Not quite. Vaikuntha is the realm of lila. The brahmajyoti is the undifferentiated plane of consciousness, there is no lila there. Jiva Goswami writes in his commentary on Brahma Samhita

 

 

Although Lord Govinda and the impersonal Brahman are the same Godhead, when He manifests His qualities He is Govinda, and when He does not manifest His qualities He is the impersonal Brahman. His first feature, that of Govinda, is situated within the circle of light that is Brahman.

 

Prabhupada wrote in Srimad Bhagavatam 9.11.19

 

 

The brahmajyoti is the beginning of the spiritual world, and beyond the brahmajyoti are the Vaikuntha planets. In other words, the brahmajyoti stays outside the Vaikuntha planets, just as the sunshine stays outside the sun. To enter the sun planet, one must go through the sunshine. Similarly, when the Lord or His devotees enter the Vaikuntha planets, they go through the brahmajyoti. The jnanis, or monistic philosophers, because of their impersonal conception of the Lord, cannot enter the Vaikuntha planets, but they also cannot stay eternally in the brahmajyoti. Thus after some time they fall again to this material world. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah (Bhag. 10.2.32). The Vaikuntha planets are covered by the brahmajyoti, and therefore one cannot properly understand what those Vaikuntha planets are unless one is a pure devotee.

 

It can be said that Prabhupada invented the idea that we were originally with Krishna or that we can fall from Vaikuntha. Clearly Prabhupada said these things many times. But if we study what he said in it's entirety and we are well educated in vedic knowledge then we can see that he was always speaking metaphorically. Saying we are originally with Krishna is a metaphor in a literal sense. In the Gita Prabhupada writes

 

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam this conception of the Absolute Truth is explained thus:

 

vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam

brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate

 

"The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan." (Bhag. 1.2.11) These three divine aspects can be explained by the example of the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, the sun's surface and the sun planet itself.

 

The Brahmajyoti or Brahman is Krishna. Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan are nondual, they are all Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly said in Srimad Bhagavatam 4.30.5

 

 

As stated in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 22.31):

 

krsna -- surya-sama; maya haya andhakara

 

yahan krsna, tahan nahi mayara adhikara

 

The Lord is just like the effulgent sun. Consequently, whenever the Supreme Personality of Godhead is present, there cannot be darkness or ignorance. Actually this dark universe is illuminated by the sun, but the sun and moon simply reflect the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Lord. In Bhagavad-gita (7.8) the Lord says, prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh: "I am the illuminating energy of both the sun and the moon." The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Saying that we could fall from Vaikuntha was something that Prabhupada was doing to inspire his neophyte disciples not to think they were above falling down. In fact he usually used the example of Jaya and Vijaya to explain that you can fall from Vaikuntha. But in reality they fell because the Lord caused them to fall so he could perform pastimes with them. Srila Prabhupada mentioned this:

 

Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag.7.1.35, purport).

 

Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there. (Bhag. 3.16.29, purport)

 

More from Srila Prabhupada

 

Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds. (Bhag. 1.5.19, purport)

 

Therefore, the devotees never fall down, but the materialists, i.e., the fruitive workers and the speculative philosophers, do fall down, being forced by their respective modes of nature. (Bhag. 1.6.31, purport)

 

The expansions of His separated forms are called living entities, and these living entities are classified according to the energies of the Lord. They are divided into two classes--eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature, and therefore they do not have any experience of material life. They are eternally engaged in Krishna consciousness, or devotional service to the Lord, and they are counted among the associates of Krishna. (TLC. Ch. 10)

 

The last word in knowledge is not self-realization or Brahman realization. There is more to realize--namely, that the jiva is the eternal servant of Lord Krsna. This realization is the awakening of supramental consciousness, and the activities a jiva performs in such consciousness are the beginning of his eternal life. (Renunciation Through Wisdom, pp147)

 

There are living entities, their number is greater. Nitya-mukta, ever liberated. They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world. And we are nitya-baddha--ever conditioned, eternally conditioned. (Lec. Bhag. 1973, Mayapura)

 

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book Ch. 28)

 

From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag.3.15.48, purport)

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode.” (Bhag.3.16.26, purport)

 

This ordinary living being is of two kinds--nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purport)

 

The devotees of the Lord, however, never fall down. In Bhagavad-gita (9.31), the Supreme Personality of Godhead assures Arjuna, kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati: "O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes." Again in Bhagavad-gita (2.40) Krishna says:

 

nehabhikrama-naso'sti pratyavayo na vidyate

svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat

 

"In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous types of fear." (NOI. 3)

 

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. (Bhag. 3.5.29)

 

But once one is engaged in the spiritual activities of bhaktiyoga, one does not fall down. (Bhag.8.3.11)

 

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (Bhag.3.25.29, purport)

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in Jaiva Dharma

 

 

There are unlimited jivas who are eternal associates of the Lord. In Goloka Vrindavana they are manifested by Lord Baladeva for the service of Lord Krishna. In Vaikuntha they are manifested by Sri Sankarshana for the service of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. They are eternally and blissfully engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, always situated in their svarupa, always striving to make the Lord happy, always favorable to the service of the Lord, and always powerful with the energy of the cit-sakti. They have absolutely no relation or contact with the inert maya. Indeed they do not even know that there is an energy called maya. Because they live in the spiritual region, maya remains very far from them. They are always absorbed in the bliss of service to their worshipable Lord. They are transcendental to mundane misery and happiness and are always liberated. Their very life is love, and they have no conception of lamentation, fear, and death.

 

The atomic conscious jivas, which come out like rays from Maha Vishnu's glance at maya, are also uncountable. Being in proximity to maya these jivas see the variegatedness of maya. They have all the characteristics of the jivas as described before, yet because of their atomic nature they sometimes glance marginally towards the spiritual creation and sometimes towards the material creation. In this marginal state the jiva is weak, because he has not yet attained spiritual power by the mercy of the worshipable Lord. Out of these unlimited jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy maya remain eternally bound by maya, because of being attached to sense enjoyment. Those who engage in devotional service to the Lord go to the spiritual world getting the strength of cit-sakti by the mercy of the Lord.

[Vigraha]

 

You keep trying to deny the fact that the jivas in the brahmajyoti are also in Vaikuntha.

 

You need to understand that the brahmajyoti is the outerspace of Vaikuntha.

The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.

Get this through your head and quit accusing Krishna of letting his pure devotees fall down.

 

 

 

Sri Nandanandana dasa - "Since the Brahman effulgence is considered to be but one of the opulences of the Supreme, it should be understood that whenever the Vedic texts speak of Brahman, they are indicating the Supreme Personality of God. In fact, it is stated that in the Vedic literature the word Brahman means, "in whom all the attributes reach to the infinity."

 

In this way, it is clear that Brahman primarily means the Supreme Person, of whom the Vedic literature is full of descriptions of various aspects of His infinite qualities and characteristics.

 

The Caitanya-caritamrita clearly states: "The word 'Brahman' indicates the complete Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Sri Krishna. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature." (Cc.Madhya-lila, 6.147)

 

The Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.7.112) also explains that, "Everything about the Supreme Personality of Godhead is spiritual, including His body, opulence and paraphernalia. Mayavadi philosophy, however, covering His spiritual opulence, advocates the theory of impersonalism."

 

One can be liberated from material existence by merging into the Brahman or the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where there is eternity and knowledge. However, there is no real ananda or bliss there. The only pleasure in the brahmajyoti is the freedom from all material suffering.

 

Some yogis think such pleasure, which may be felt on elementary levels of meditation, is a sign of reaching the final goal. But real ananda is found only in spiritual engagement. Without understanding this, one's spiritual knowledge is incomplete.

Sarva-gattah - "The goal of the impersonalists is to merge into the Brahman effulgence or Impersonal Brahmajyoti, where they lose all of their individual characteristics that is simply another form of dreaming. If the nitya-baddha consciousness succeeds to enter a dormant dreamless state, they remain there as an inactive spiritual spark, (nitya-baddha consciousness) floating in the rays of the brahmajyoti. They do not realize that they have a nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha that again gives them the opportunity to engage in various spiritual personal activities because they do not know about their full bodily identity in Goloka. The whole creation including the maha-tattva exist within the Brahman effulgence.

 

Therefore there are three aspects to the Brahmajyoti effulgence, the original source is perpetually Personal and active in bodily form, while the Impersonal is inactive, bodyless and devoid of devotional service. The third is the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

So, if the nitya-baddha consciousness in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti again has any yearning for engaging in activities, they cannot go back to the spiritual planets because they are not qualified to do so, so they are forced to seek shelter in the mahat-tattva or material world where they start over again confoned to ethereal and biological bodily vessels.

Sri Nandanandana dasa -'The idea of achieving spiritual liberation by merging into the Brahman effulgence is considered the process of a cheating religion. Why it is considered this is that it destroys the opportunity for people to re-establish their loving relationship with the Supreme'.

This is confirmed in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.1.92): "The foremost process of cheating is to desire to achieve liberation by merging in the Supreme, for this causes the permanent disappearance of loving service to Krishna."

 

Therefore, those who have reached mature spiritual realization look upon merging into the Brahman effulgence as a great mistake.

Sarva-gattah - 'From this verse it is clear that without going beyond the Brahman effulgence (Impersonal Brahmajyoti), one cannot see the real perpetual bodily form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or their own perpetual ‘svarupa’ active bodily identity.

 

If one reaches the stage of realizing the Brahman (IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI) and becomes convinced that he has attained the ultimate, then he does not have complete understanding or full realization of his full constitutional bodily origins and potential. He still must go further until he has reached the source of the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, according to the Isa Upanishad, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead where one is eternal actively serving Krishna as an eternal bodily form without end or beginning. This is the real position of all marginal living entities

[Beggar]

 

The Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.7.112) also explains that, "Everything about the Supreme Personality of Godhead is spiritual, including His body, opulence and paraphernalia. Mayavadi philosophy, however, covering His spiritual opulence, advocates the theory of impersonalism."

 

 

By 1973 after two years in ISKCON it was becoming quite clear to me that many of my godbrothers and sisters were not especially bright. Also many tended to relapse into impersonalism. It seemed that some were always looking at Prabhupada's words for a loophole back to impersonalism. The irony is that now days (and for the last 30 years) these same types accuse those who promote the real Saraswat Gaudiya siddhanta to be impersonalists.

[Guruvani]

 

Not quite. Vaikuntha is the realm of lila. The brahmajyoti is the undifferentiated plane of consciousness, there is no lila there. Jiva Goswami writes in his commentary on Brahma Samhita

 

 

yes quite.

I said that the brahmajyoti is the outerspace of the Vaikuntha planets.

The outerspace of Vaikuntha is in the spiritual sky Vaikuntha realm.

 

Vaikuntha means without limit or without miseries.

The brahmajyoti is both.

Vaikuntha has never been renderered as meaning "lila" by any acharya or Sanskrit authority.

 

The brahmajyoti is in the spiritual sky of Vaikuntha.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.51

 

vaikuṇṭha-bāhire yei jyotir-maya dhāma

tāhāra bāhire 'kāraṇārṇava' nāma

 

SYNONYMS

vaikuṇṭha-bāhire — outside the Vaikuṇṭha planets; yei — that; jyotiḥ-maya dhāma — impersonal Brahman effulgence; tāhāra bāhire — outside that effulgence; kāraṇa-arṇava nāma — an ocean called Kāraṇa.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Outside the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal Brahman effulgence, and beyond that effulgence is the Kāraṇa Ocean, or Causal Ocean.

 

 

PURPORT

The impersonal glowing effulgence known as impersonal Brahman is the outer space of the Vaikuṇṭha planets in the spiritual sky. Beyond that impersonal Brahman is the great Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual skies. The material nature is a by-product of this Causal Ocean.

 

[shiva]

Guruvani this is what you wrote

 

 

The brahmajyoti is also Vaikuntha.

 

That is incorrect. By claiming such a thing you are contradicting your other claim that no one falls from vaikuntha. If the brahmajyoti is vaikuntha then jivas can fall from vaikuntha because jivas come from the brahmajyoti and fall into the material world. Also jivas can attain to sayuja-mukti (merging into brahman) but they cannot stay there and eventually fall back into the material world.

 

 

Similarly, even you go to the Brahman effulgence, brahmajyoti, aruhya krcchrena param padam [sB 10.2.32]. That is called param padam. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah. Again you fall down. (ACBS lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.25

Vrndavana, November 12, 1976

 

 

However, the demons who are elevated to the spiritual world are situated in the impersonal Brahman effulgence, whereas the devotees are allowed to enter into the Vaikuntha planets. Those who are devotees of Lord Krishna are immediately elevated to the Goloka Vrindavana planet. (Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.45-46

 

So there is a difference between vaikuntha and the brahmajyoti. The brahmajyoti is not vaikuntha. Vaikuntha is where Krishna and his swamsa expansions like Narayana presides with nitya mukta devotees.

 

Since your claim is that no one can fall from vaikuntha then the brahmajyoti cannot be vaikuntha. Everything exists within the brahmajyoti, both the material and spiritual world. If your claim were true then we would be in vaikuntha wherever we are.

 

 

 

vaikuntha, brahmanda-gana-sakti-karya haya

svarupa-sakti sakti-karyera-krsna samasraya

 

Now, Lord Caitanya says, Vaikuntha. Just like this universe is a jagad-anda, is a big round ball, anda. Anda means egglike, just like egg is round. Therefore it is called brahmanda. It is a round ball. Every planet is round, and the universe is also round, and the Vaikunthas are also round, all round. Vaikuntha, brahmanda-gana-sakti-karya haya. So all these universes, the universe which we experience... There are innumerable universes that we cannot see. We can see only one universe, and in one universe there are innumerable planets. Similarly, there are innumerable universes, and in each universe there are innumerable planets. This information we get from Brahma-samhita.

 

yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-

kotisv asesa-vasudhadi vibhuti-bhinnam

tad brahma niskalam anantam asesa-bhutam

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

[bs. 5.40]

 

That brahmajyoti, in that brahmajyoti there are all these universes and Vaikunthas. All, they are resting in that brahmajyoti. Just like in the sunshine so many planets are resting, similarly, in the brahmajyoti, the personal shining of Lord Krsna, in that shining which is called brahmajyoti, all the universes and Vaikuntha planets or universes, they are all resting. And the universes, the material universes are only one-fourths in quantity of the Vaikuntha universes. All the universes taken together of this material world, it is only one-fourths in comparison to the other Vaikuntha, or spiritual, universes. Vaikuntha, brahmanda-gana-sakti-karya haya. (ACBS lecture onCaitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.146-151

New York, December 3, 1966

 

You also claim that I concocted the claim that vaikuntha is where lila takes place.

 

 

CC Madhya 21.46: "Below the Vrndavana planet is the spiritual sky, which is known as Visnuloka. In Visnuloka there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets controlled by Narayana and innumerable other expansions of Krsna.

 

CC Madhya 21.47: "The spiritual sky, which is full in all six opulences, is the intermediate residence of Lord Krsna. It is there that an unlimited number of forms of Krsna enjoy Their pastimes.

 

CC Madhya 21.48: "Innumerable Vaikuntha planets, which are just like different rooms of a treasure-house, are all there, filled with all opulences. Those unlimited planets house the Lord's eternal associates, who are also enriched with the six opulences.

 

SB 9.4.60: Thereafter, being disappointed even in taking shelter of Lord Siva, Durvasa Muni went to Vaikuntha-dhama, where the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, resides with His consort, the goddess of fortune.

 

(Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.34-35) But we should know well that all the above-mentioned living entities killed would attain salvation either by being merged in the brahmajyoti of the Lord or being allowed to enter into the abodes of the Lord called Vaikunthas.

 

(Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.14) In the spiritual sky His opulence is immeasurable. The Lord resides in all the spiritual planets, the innumerable Vaikuntha planets, by expanding His plenary portions along with His liberated devotee associates, but the impersonalists who want to merge in the existence of the Lord are allowed to merge as one of the spiritual sparks of the brahmajyoti. They have no qualifications for becoming associates of the Lord either in the Vaikuntha planets or in the supreme planet, Goloka Vrindavana, described in the Bhagavad-gita as mad-dhama and here in this verse as the sva-dhama of the Lord.

 

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani this is what you wrote

 

 

 

That is incorrect. By claiming such a thing you are contradicting your other claim that no one falls from vaikuntha. If the brahmajyoti is vaikuntha then jivas can fall from vaikuntha because jivas come from the brahmajyoti and fall into the material world. Also jivas can attain to sayuja-mukti (merging into brahman) but they cannot stay there and eventually fall back into the material world.

 

 

 

So there is a difference between vaikuntha and the brahmajyoti. The brahmajyoti is not vaikuntha. Vaikuntha is where Krishna and his swamsa expansions like Narayana presides with nitya mukta devotees.

 

Since your claim is that no one can fall from vaikuntha then the brahmajyoti cannot be vaikuntha. Everything exists within the brahmajyoti, both the material and spiritual world. If your claim were true then we would be in vaikuntha wherever we are.

 

 

 

You also claim that I concocted the claim that vaikuntha is where lila takes place.

Well, I probably mis-spoke.

Why I usually say and meant to say was that no devotee on the Vaikuntha planets fall down.

There is a different between the devotees on the Vaikuntha planet and the living entity spirit sparks in the Vaikuntha outerspace.

 

I should have said that only the living entities in the brahmajyoti outerspace of Vaikuntha fall down because they don't have any form or any service to Krishna.

 

The brahmajyoti illuminates the Vaikuntha world, so you are surely mistaken if you think that there brahmajyoti is not in the Vaikuntha sky.

 

If the brahmajyoti is on the other side of the Viraja then it is like the halo of Vaikuntha.

 

Again, you are mis-representing my statements.

 

There is a difference between life on the Vaikuntha planets in service to NARAYANA and being a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti effulgence of the spiritual sky.

 

You are just defending your ego here.

Twising my words helps you defend your pride.

 

But, I don't have time to go tit-for-tat with you if you are going to give my words meanings they do not have.

 

I know what I am saying.

You are not hearing me.

You are just looking for a fight over trivial semantics as you juggle my words to mean something they don't.

 

You obviously don't know the difference between Vaikuntha and Vaikunthaloka.

[shiva]

 

Well, I probably mis-spoke.

Why I usually say and meant to say was that no devotee on the Vaikuntha planets fall down.

There is a different between the devotees on the Vaikuntha planet and the living entity spirit sparks in the Vaikuntha outerspace.

 

I should have said that only the living entities in the brahmajyoti outerspace of Vaikuntha fall down because they don't have any form or any service to Krishna.

 

The brahmajyoti illuminates the Vaikuntha world, so you are surely mistaken if you think that there brahmajyoti is not in the Vaikuntha sky.

 

If the brahmajyoti is on the other side of the Viraja then it is like the halo of Vaikuntha.

 

Again, you are mis-representing my statements.

 

There is a difference between life on the Vaikuntha planets in service to NARAYANA and being a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti effulgence of the spiritual sky.

 

You are just defending your ego here.

Twising my words helps you defend your pride.

 

But, I don't have time to go tit-for-tat with you if you are going to give my words meanings they do not have.

 

I know what I am saying.

You are not hearing me.

You are just looking for a fight over trivial semantics as you juggle my words to mean something they don't.

 

Well, what can I say. You could have just admitted your mistake instead of making false claims. I didn't twist your words. I simply said that you were wrong. You may know what you are saying but all we have is what you actually write down. The brahmajyoti according to Srila Prabhupada exists everywhere. The Vaikuntha planets are surrounded by the Brahmajyoti because the brahmjyoti is coming from them. You also claim the brahmajyoti "illuminates" vaikuntha:

 

Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.14

 

 

The Vaikuntha planets and the Goloka Vrindavana planet are all self-illuminating, and the rays scattered by those sva-dhama of the Lord constitute the existence of the brahmajyoti.

 

na tatra suryo bhati na candra-tarakam

nema vidyuto bhanti kuto 'yam agnih

tam eva bhantam anu bhati sarvam

tasya bhasa sarvam idam vibhati

 

In the sva-dhama of the Lord there is no need of sun, moon or stars for illumination. Nor is there need of electricity, so what to speak of ignited lamps? On the other hand, it is because those planets are self-illuminating that all effulgence has become possible, and whatever there is that is dazzling is due to the reflection of that sva-dhama.

 

No need to make claims that people are being egotistic simply because you make mistakes and then they are pointed out.

[Guruvani]

 

You also claim the brahmajyoti "illuminates" vaikuntha:

 

So does Srila Prabhupada:

 

Bhagavad-Gita As It Is - Introduction.

 

The abode of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fifteenth Chapter, sixth verse:

 

 

na tad bhāsayate sūryo

na śaśāńko na pāvakaḥ

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaḿ mama

 

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world."

This verse gives a description of that eternal sky. Of course we have a material conception of the sky, and we think of it in relationship to the sun, moon, stars and so on, but in this verse the Lord states that in the eternal sky there is no need for the sun nor for the moon nor electricity or fire of any kind because the spiritual sky is already illuminated by the brahmajyoti, the rays emanating from the Supreme Lord.

so, maybe you need to start with basic teachings of Srila Prabhupada before you go making false accusations?

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 6.15 purport,

 

 

No one can reach the spiritual sky (Vaikuṇṭha) or enter into the Lord's eternal abode (Goloka Vṛndāvana) without the proper understanding of Kṛṣṇa and His plenary expansion Viṣṇu.

 

Srila Prabhupada uses the terms "spritual sky" and "Vaikuntha" synonymously.

 

So, obvioulsy you are trying to accuse me of saying something wrong when in fact I can support my statements with the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I don't know where you get your ideas, but mine come from the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I am not an inventor.

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

So there is a difference between vaikuntha and the brahmajyoti. The brahmajyoti is not vaikuntha. Vaikuntha is where Krishna and his swamsa expansions like Narayana presides with nitya mukta devotees.

 

 

 

The brahmajyoti creates Vaikuntha according to Srila Prabhupada, so your claim that the brahmajyoti is not Vaikuntha is not correct.

There is no difference.

The Vaikuntha exists within the brahmajyoti.

 

The Vaikuntha doesn't create the brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti creates Vaikuntha.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 17.105

 

 

the Brahman effulgence emanating from the body of the Supreme Lord creates innumerable planets in both the spiritual and material worlds;

[Guruvani]

 

The brahmajyoti is not vaikuntha.

 

Sorry.

Wrong again.

 

 

Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.146-151

New York, December 3, 1966

 

 

That brahmajyoti, in that brahmajyoti there are all these universes and Vaikunthas. All, they are resting in that brahmajyoti.

 

So, if Vaikuntha is in the brahmajyoti, then how can the brahmajyoti not be Vaikuntha?

Vaikuntha is manifested out of the brahmajyoti.

Vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti.

 

So, the source of Vaikuntha is something less than Vaikuntha?

 

Your logic is weak.

[shiva]

 

So does Srila Prabhupada:

 

Bhagavad-Gita As It Is - Introduction.

 

 

so, maybe you need to start with basic teachings of Srila Prabhupada before you go making false accusations?

 

There is a difference between the "spiritual sky" or paravyoma and Vaikuntha. The "spiritual sky" or paravyoma is where the vaikuntha planets are situated, but that is not illuminating the vaikuntha planets. An analogy is the sun and the sunshine. Sunshine surrounds the sun but the sunshine is not illuminating the sun, the sun is self luminous. Similarly the brahmajyoti is not illuminating vaikuntha, it is illuminated from Vaikuntha. Within the paravyoma are the vaikuntha planets which are self luminous.

 

 

Purport from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.192

 

 

At the top of the paravyoma, the spiritual sky, there is Goloka Vrndavana, which is divided into three parts. Two of the parts, called Mathura and Dvaraka, are the residences of Krsna in His prabhava-vilasa forms. Balarama, Krsna's vaibhava-prakasa, is eternally situated in Gokula. From the quadruple prabhava-vilasa, twenty-four forms of the vaibhava-vilasa are expanded. Each has four hands holding weapons in different positions. The topmost planet in the spiritual sky is Goloka Vrndavana, and below that planet is the spiritual sky itself. In that spiritual sky, Krsna Himself is four-handed and is situated as Narayana.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 5.34

 

 

surya-mandala yena bahire nirvisesa

bhitare suryera ratha-adi savisesa

 

It is like the homogeneous effulgence around the sun. But inside the sun are the chariots, horses and other opulences of the sun-god.

 

PURPORT

 

Outside of Vaikuntha, the abode of Krsna, which is called paravyoma, is the glaring effulgence of Krsna's bodily rays. This is called the brahmajyoti. The transcendental region of that effulgence is called Siddhaloka or Brahmaloka. When impersonalists achieve liberation, they merge into that Brahmaloka effulgence. This transcendental region is undoubtedly spiritual, but it contains no manifestations of spiritual activities or variegatedness. It is compared to the glow of the sun. Within the sun's glow is the sphere of the sun, where one can experience all sorts of varieties

 

 

Bhagavad-gita 15.6

 

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.

 

PURPORT

 

The spiritual world, the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna -- which is known as Krsnaloka, Goloka Vrndavana -- is described here. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity, because all the planets are self-luminous. We have only one planet in this universe, the sun, which is self-luminous, but all the planets in the spiritual sky are self-luminous. The shining effulgence of all those planets (called Vaikunthas) constitutes the shining sky known as the brahmajyoti. Actually, the effulgence is emanating from the planet of Krsna, Goloka Vrndavana.

[shiva]

 

Sorry.

Wrong again.

 

 

Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.146-151

New York, December 3, 1966

 

 

 

So, if Vaikuntha is in the brahmajyoti, then how can the brahmajyoti not be Vaikuntha?

Vaikuntha is manifested out of the brahmajyoti.

Vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti.

 

So, the source of Vaikuntha is something less than Vaikuntha?

 

Your logic is weak.

 

How can the sunshine not be the sun? The sun is situated within sunshine. Therefore the sunshsine is the sun. Therefore the sunshine created the sun. This is your logic. The conception that "vaikuntha is manifested out of the brahmajyoti" and "Vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti" is ridiculous. Clearly we are told that the brahmajyoti is outside of the vaikuntha planets. Your idea that "vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti" and "the source of vaikuntha" shows that you are now just floundering in a sea of misconception and concoction.

[Guruvani]

 

There is a difference between the "spiritual sky" or paravyoma and Vaikuntha.

Wrong.

They are all one.

They are all created by the brahmajyoti.

 

You can't have Vaikuntha without the Vaikuntha sky.

The Vaikuntha sky and Vaikuntha cannot be seperated.

They are one.

 

You are trying to say there is duality in the the absolute.

There is no duality.

Everything is one.

 

The Vaikuntha sky is part of Vaikuntha.

 

You keep getting Vaikuntha confused for Vaikunthaloka or the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha.

 

Vaikuntha has planets and sky.

 

You are trying to say the sky of Vaikuntha is not Vaikuntha.

 

That is silly.

 

Vaikunthaloka is the planets and Vaikuntha is the planets and the sky both.

 

The Lord's lila is taking place within the planets created by the brahmajyoti.

 

You can't take away the Lord's sky and say it is not Vaikuntha.

 

There is sky within the Vaikuntha planets as well, just a ether is within all forms of matter.

 

The spiritual sky is within all the forms of Vaikuntha including the planets and the personal forms of the nitya-siddhas.

 

Ultimately there is only one spiritual energy of the Lord that has different phases and manifests all the forms of Vaikuntha.

 

That energy is the brahmajyoti or the light of Krishna's personal form.

 

The light of Krishna creates and sustains all of existence in both the spiritual and material worlds.

 

But, you are saying it is not Vaikuntha?

 

The light of the body of Krishna is not Vaikuntha?

 

That is a misconception.

[Guruvani]

 

How can the sunshine not be the sun? The sun is situated within sunshine. Therefore the sunshsine is the sun. Therefore the sunshine created the sun. This is your logic. The conception that "vaikuntha is manifested out of the brahmajyoti" and "Vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti" is ridiculous. Clearly we are told that the brahmajyoti is outside of the vaikuntha planets. Your idea that "vaikuntha is only a manifestation of the brahmajyoti" and "the source of vaikuntha" shows that you are now just floundering in a sea of misconception and concoction.

 

So, you are saying Srila Prabhupada is wrong when he says that the brahmajyoti creates the Vaikuntha planets.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 17.105

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

the Brahman effulgence emanating from the body of the Supreme Lord creates innumerable planets in both the spiritual and material worlds;

 

Again, just try to understand that Vaikuntha doesn't create the brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti effulgence of Krishna creates the Vaikuntha world.

 

Don't get hung up on the example of the material sun in the material world.

It is not perfectly analogous to Krishna and his effulgence.

 

The effulgence of Krishna is non-different than Krishna.

They are ONE.

 

Otherwise, it cannot be said that the svarupa of of jiva is that of an eternal servant.

 

If there was some disconnect then the jiva would not be an eternal servant of Krishna.

 

We have always been an eternal servant of Krishna.

That cannot be stopped even if we come to this material world to enjoy the senses.

 

Krishna manifests himself in an avyakta-murti in the form of the brahmajyoti.

 

The avyakta-murti (brahmajyoti effulgence) is a form of Krishna.

It creates the spiritual world and the material world too.