Why did Srila Prabhupada promote the fairytale?

[shiva]

 

The brahmajyoti creates Vaikuntha according to Srila Prabhupada, so your claim that the brahmajyoti is not Vaikuntha is not correct.

There is no difference.

The Vaikuntha exists within the brahmajyoti.

 

The Vaikuntha doesn't create the brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti creates Vaikuntha.

 

You are confused. You are using the following from Prabhupada to extrapolate the idea that the brahmajyoti is in vaikuntha and the same as vaikuntha. Yet we have numerous direct statements saying that the brahmajyoti is outside of vaikuntha and not the same as vaikuntha. Why you choose to extrapolate a meaning which contradicts direct unequivocal statements is a mystery.

 

"As stated in the Brahma-samhita (yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti- [bs. 5.40]), the Brahman effulgence emanating from the body of the Supreme Lord creates innumerable planets in both the spiritual and material worlds; thus these planets are creations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

 

This is simply saying that Brahman is the ingredient of all created things, sarvam khalv idam brahma, everything is brahman because everything is manifested out of God and created by God. But still there are differences. If we take your logic that because the spiritual planets are created out of brahman therefore the brahmajyoti is not different from vaikuntha, then we can say that the material world is also not different from the brahmajyoti or vaikuntha because the material world is also created from brahman.

 

From Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.31

 

 

In Bhagavad-gita (7.10) the Lord says:

 

bijam mam sarva-bhutanam

viddhi partha sanatanam

 

"O son of Prtha, know that I am the original seed of all existences." In the Vedic literature it is said, isavasyam idam sarvam, yato va imani bhutani jayante and sarvam khalv idam brahma. All this Vedic information indicates that there is only one God and that there is nothing else but Him. The Mayavadi philosophers explain this in their own way, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead asserts the truth that He is everything and yet is separate from everything. This is the philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, which is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. Everything is one, the Supreme Lord, yet everything is separate from the Lord. This is the understanding of oneness and difference.

 

The example given in this regard -- vasukalavad asti-tarvoh -- is very easy to understand. Everything exists in time, yet there are different phases of the time factor -- present, past and future. Present, past and future are one. Every day we can experience the time factor as morning, noon and evening, and although morning is different from noon, which is different from evening, all of them taken together are one. The time factor is the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the Lord is separate from the time factor. Everything is created, maintained and annihilated by time, but the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, has no beginning and no end. He is nityah sasvatah -- eternal, permanent. Everything passes through time's phases of present, past and future, yet the Lord is always the same. Thus there is undoubtedly a difference between the Lord and the cosmic manifestation, but actually they are not different. Accepting them to be different is called avidya, ignorance.

 

True oneness, however, is not equivalent to the conception of the Mayavadis. The true understanding is that the differences are manifested by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The seed is manifested as a tree, which displays varieties in its trunk, branches, leaves, flowers and fruits. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has therefore sung, kesava tuya jagata vicitra: "My dear Lord, Your creation is full of varieties." The varieties are one and at the same time different. This is the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. The conclusion given in Brahma-samhita [bs. 5.1] is this:

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

 

"Krsna, known as Govinda, is the supreme controller. He has an eternal, blissful, spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin, for He is the prime cause of all causes." Because the Lord is the supreme cause, everything is one with Him, but when we consider varieties, we find that one thing is different from another.

 

We may conclude, therefore, that there is no difference between one thing and another, yet in varieties there are differences. In this regard, Madhvacarya gives an example concerning a tree and a tree in fire. Both trees are the same, but they look different because of the time factor. The time factor is under the control of the Supreme Lord, and therefore the Supreme Lord is different from time. An advanced devotee consequently does not distinguish between happiness and distress. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.8):

 

tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

 

When a devotee is in a condition of so-called distress, he considers it a gift or blessing from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When a devotee is always thus situated in Krsna consciousness in any condition of life, he is described as mukti-pade sa daya-bhak, a perfect candidate for returning home, back to Godhead. The word daya-bhak means "inheritance." A son inherits the property of his father. Similarly, when the devotee is fully Krsna conscious, undisturbed by dualities, he is sure that he will return home, back to Godhead, just as one inherits his father's property.

 

 

If we take the statement in bold in the above purport literally and without the proper context, then we can conclude that time is God. In the same way you are taking Prabhupada's words and the concept he is trying to get across out of context when he says that everything is created from brahman. Why do you want to insist that the brahmajyoti is in vaikuntha or the same as vaikuntha when we are told repeatedly that is not the case?

[Guruvani]

 

You are confused. You are using the following from Prabhupada to extrapolate the idea that the brahmajyoti is in vaikuntha and the same as vaikuntha. Yet we have numerous direct statements saying that the brahmajyoti is outside of vaikuntha and not the same as vaikuntha.

 

 

You are confused because you don't know the difference between Vaikuntha and Vaikunthaloka.

The entire spiritual realm is Vaikuntha including the brahmajyoti that is the basis of the Vaikuntha realm.

 

Vaikunthaloka means Vaikuntha planet.

Narayana is having pastimes in Vaikuntha but in Vaikunthaloka.

 

Vaikuntha doesn't mean "lila" as you said before.

Vaikuntha means "without misery".

 

The brahmajyoti is also without misery.

It is Vaikuntha.

It is the source of the Vaikuntha planets where Lord Narayana has his pastimes.

[Guruvani]

edited spelling below

[Guruvani]

 

If we take your logic that because the spiritual planets are created out of brahman therefore the brahmajyoti is not different from vaikuntha, then we can say that the material world is also not different from the brahmajyoti or vaikuntha because the material world is also created from brahman.

 

 

 

That is exactly what I am saying.

Vaikuntha is all-pervading.

Yes, it pervades the brahmajyoti too or it could not be said to be all-pervading.

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.15

 

sarvaga, ananta, vibhu -- vaikunthadi dhama

krishna, krishna-avatarera tahani visrama

 

SYNONYMS

sarva-ga -- all-pervading; ananta -- unlimited; vibhu -- greatest; vaikuntha-adi dhama -- all the places known as Vaikunthaloka; krishna -- of Lord Krishna; krishna-avatarera -- of the incarnations of Lord Krishna; tahani -- there; visrama -- the residence.

 

 

TRANSLATION

That Vaikuntha region is all-pervading, infinite and supreme. It is the residence of Lord Krishna and His incarnations.

 

What part of "all-pervading" means that it doesn't pervade the brahmajyoti?

 

There are no incarnations in the spiritual world.

The incarnations are in the material world.

[shiva]

 

You are confused because you don't know the difference between Vaikuntha and Vaikunthaloka.

The entire spiritual realm is Vaikuntha including the brahmajyoti that is the basis of the Vaikuntha realm.

 

Vaikunthaloka means Vaikuntha planet.

Narayana is having pastimes in Vaikuntha but in Vaikunthaloka.

 

Vaikuntha doesn't mean "lila" as you said before.

Vaikuntha means "without misery".

 

The brahmajyoti is also without misery.

It is Vaikuntha.

It is the source of the Vaikuntha planets where Lord Narayana has his pastimes.

 

Wow, now you are going to say I said things I never did and then argue againt that fabrication? I didn't say "vaikuntha means lila". I said "Vaikuntha is the realm of lila." And then I backed that up with citations after you said that is a concoction. Vaikuntha is the residence of Lord Narayana and the various Vishnu forms. Above that is Goloka. The brahmajyoti is not in Vaikuntha, and as already described in my pervious post the brahmajyoti is not the source of Vaikuntha, you took Prabhupada's words out there context. He simply meant that everything is comprised of brahman. Krishna is the source of the brahmajyoti and vaikuntha, the effect is not the cause as you would have it.

 

From Srila Sridhara Maharaja

 

 

Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.

 

At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.

 

From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma

 

 

The spiritual world is enclosed by a wall of light called the Brahmajyoti. Beyond that wall may be seen the spiritual sky of Vaikuntha. In Vaikuntha the Lord's opulence is prominent. There Lord Narayanacandra, the king of kings, is served by numberless spiritual opulences. In Vaikuntha the Lord accepts only the svakiya rasa. There Sri, Bhu, Nila and the other wives serve their husband, Lord Narayana. Above Vaikuntha is Goloka.

 

You can conclude that the brahmajyoti is the same as vaikuntha if you like. I disagree and claim that vaikuntha is the abode of the Lord where he performs pastimes. I disagree with your assertion that the word vaikuntha means something different then the abode of the Lord ,and the subsequent use of brahmajyoti as cognate with vaikuntha. Yes the literal meaning of vaikuntha is without misery or anxiety, but so what what? That doesn't mean that any situation where there is no misery is the abode of the Lord. It's like claiming that because Goloka means cow world or planet that anyplace where there are lots of cows is where Krishna's nitya lila pastimes take place. Vaikuntha is the abode of the Lord. Brahmajyoti is the undifferentiated plane of consciousness. No one falls from Vaikuntha, anyone can fall from the Brahmajyoti.

[shiva]

From Jiva Goswami's Bhagavat Sandarbha

 

 

Sri Suta Gosvami simultaneously describes two qualities of Vaikuntha--it is beyond the material world and it is a place from where no one falls down

 

You claim that the brahmjyoti is vaikuntha. You also claim that the jiva comes from the brahmajyoti. We are taught that the tatastha sakti is the source or the same as the jiva and that the spiritual world is the same or manifested from cit sakti (swarupa sakti).

 

If the brahmajyoti is the same as vaikuntha then that would contradict the teaching that the jiva is manifest from tatastha sakti and that the spiritual world manifests from swarupa sakti. If the brahmjyoti is the spiritual world then that would mean that the jiva is manifest from swarupa sakti instead of tatastha sakti. But clearly we are told that the tatastha sakti is neither in the spiritual world nor the material world, it is on the border between the two.

 

In "Sri Caitanya's Teachings" Bhaktisiddhanta writes

 

 

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.

 

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu

 

Tattva Viveka 2.4 by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres

 

Bhaktivinoda writes in Jaiva Dharma

 

 

Vrajanatha: In the svarupa of the jiva there is no product of maya. This has to be accepted. The nature of the jiva can be influenced by maya. This I have also understood. Now I want to know if the cit-sakti has created the jiva by giving it the marginal nature?

 

Babaji: No, cit-sakti is the complete potency of Krishna. Whatever it manifests are all nitya-siddha objects. The jiva is not nitya-siddha; he becomes sadhana-siddha through sadhana and enjoys bliss like the nitya-siddha. The four types of sakhis of Sri Radha are nitya-siddhas; they are kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha, who is the personification of the cit-sakti.

 

All the jivas have appeared from the jiva-sakti of Lord Krishna. Just as cit-sakti is Krishna's complete potency, similarly jiva-sakti is His incomplete potency. All complete objects have appeared from the complete potency, similarly from the incomplete potency come the unlimited atomic jivas. Lord Krishna presiding over each of His potencies manifest His various expansions correspondingly. Presiding over the cit potency He manifests His Krishna form and that of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. Presiding over His jiva-sakti He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja. Becoming situated in His maya-sakti He manifests the three Vishnu forms--Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi, and Garobhodakasayi.

 

From His Krishna form He manifests all the cit entities. From His Baladeva form as Sesha tattva He manifests the nitya-muktas, associate jivas to render service in eight ways to Lord Krishna, the Seshi tattva. Again, becoming Sankarshana as Sesha rupa He manifests eight types of eternal associates to render service in eight ways to Seshi, Narayana. Maha Vishnu, an incarnation of Sankarshana, becoming situated in the jiva-sakti as Supersoul, manifests the living entities of the material world. All these jivas (coming from Maha Vishnu) are disposed to maya. Until they attain the shelter of hladini-sakti of the cit world by the mercy of the Lord they are prone to be defeated by maya. The unlimited conditioned jivas being defeated by maya remain under the influence of her three modes. Therefore the principle is that only jiva-sakti manifests jivas and not cit-sakti.

 

From Bhaktisiddhanta's "Vaisnavism Real and Apparent"

 

 

The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that

 

 

 

From Srila Prabhupada

 

 

C.C. Madhya 20.108-109

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna's marginal potency. There are two worlds -- the spiritual world and the material world -- and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire."

 

If the jiva originates from the brahmajyoti and the brahmajyoti is the spiritual world then the above statements are wrong. Here Srila Prabhupada quotes Bhaktivinoda who states that the jiva comes from neither the spiritual nor material world. Therefore the brahmajyoti cannot be considered to be the same as Vaikuntha. Just like everything is comprised of brahman, which is spiritual, including vaikuntha, but at the same time not everything is considered to be comprised of spiritual energy. Maya sakti is considered to be different then cit sakti, the material world is said to be different from the spiritual world, one is said to be comprised of cit sakti and the other is said to be comprised of maya sakti. But still they are both comprised of brahman and can be said to be the same thing. So even though the brahmajyoti is everywhere, still vaikuntha is considered to be different then the brahmajyoti because they are manifested as different. So that is why brahmajyoti is different then vaikuntha. Even though ultimately they are both simply manifestations of brahman or Krishna, still they are categorized as different for various reasons. The vedic teachings categorize brahman depending on what action Krishna is taking.

 

Bhaktivinoda writes in Jaiva Dharma

 

 

In the Narada-pancaratra, Sri Durga Devi explains:

 

tava vaksasi radhaham rase vrindavane vane

 

In the forest known as Vrindavana, I am Your internal sakti, Sri Radhika, who adorns Your chest in the rasa dance.

 

From this statement of Durga Devi, it is clear that there is only one sakti, not two. That sakti is Radhika when She manifests as the internal potency, and she is Durga when she is manifested as the external potency. In the condition of freedom from contact with the material modes of nature, visnu-maya is the cit-sakti. That same visnu-maya is the jada-sakti when it is endowed with the modes of nature.

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag.3.16.26, purport)

 

This ordinary living being is of two kinds--nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purport)

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

..the jiva comes from neither the spiritual nor material world.

 

Such explanations about the living entity somehow makes one ask, why Krishna created the living entities in the first place? - And do we need "Vaishnavism" for such kind of religious wisdom? Krishna created the living entities for His pleasure, they're His eternal children and He wants them to come back to His eternal kingdom to enjoy eternal blissful live in the spiritual world. If we have so much it should be clear that the falldown into this material world is nothing but the son who left the shelter of the father. Since we are individuals we all have individual stories of our falldown into this material world. Why turn Vaishnavism into a strange weird meander of technical dogmas which no one can comprehend?

[shiva]

 

Such explanations about the living entity somehow makes one ask, why Krishna created the living entities in the first place? - And do we need "Vaishnavism" for such kind of religious wisdom? Krishna created the living entities for His pleasure, they're His eternal children and He wants them to come back to His eternal kingdom to enjoy eternal blissful live in the spiritual world. If we have so much it should be clear that the falldown into this material world is nothing but the son who left the shelter of the father. Since we are individuals we all have individual stories of our falldown into this material world. Why turn Vaishnavism into a strange weird meander of technical dogmas which no one can comprehend?

 

Well you can create any dogma you like. The gauidya vaisnava teaching is very specific. Sastra makes it clear why the jivas exist; to bring pleasure to the Lord. It also makes it very clear why jivas are in the material world; to become free from avidya (ignorance) maya (illusion) and and to develop our consciousness to the point where we can give the Lord pleasure. Guruvani and I agree on the large picture, we are just debating more esoteric aspects of the philosophy. We are not turinng vaisnavism into a "strange weird meander of technical dogmas which no one can comprehend". We are not creating these teachings. Why do these teachings exist if they have no point? You can find al these teachings in the upanishads, the puranas, the bhagavatam, the work of the 6 goswamis, the writings of the gaudiya acaryas, etc. People can understand what we are saying, maybe not everyone, but if we understand it why should you think that "no one can comprehend"? Prabhupada's books are full of these topics, as are Jiva Goswami's Sat Sandarbhas and many other Gaudiya acaryas. Ever read Jaiva Dharma by Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Or the Upanishads? Baladeva Vidyabhusana's commentary on the Vedanta Sutra; Govinda Bhasya? Or have you studied the Bhagavatam or the Caitanya Caritamrta very much iin depth? If you do you will see all these topics covered extensively. Maybe not everyone is philosophically inclined, not everyone has the tempermant of a brahmana, but many people are and do. All the past acaryas have spoken or written extensively on these topics, were they also wasting their time on stuff no one can comprehend?

[Guruvani]

 

Why turn Vaishnavism into a strange weird meander of technical dogmas which no one can comprehend?

Myself, what has confused me more than the technicalities of the origin, falldown, eternal conditioning etc. of the soul is Srila Prabhupada's resisting to express the actual facts and the techinicalities without compromise due to the fact that he didn't think modern western people could understand or accept.

 

I can much easier deal with the real truth than a complex meandering back and forth between technical and allegorical in the attempts to accomodate all classes of students from the beginner to the advanced.

 

In the end I think the allegorical fairytale version is going to hold ISKCON back and create schisms in the Gaudiya sampradaya which also exists in the western world apart and outside from ISKCON.

[suchandra]

 

Guruvani and I agree on the large picture, we are just debating more esoteric aspects of the philosophy.

 

This is very encouraging that you and Guruvani agree - we all surely wish you well in debating the esoteric aspects of the philosophy!

[suchandra]

 

.........and create schisms in the Gaudiya sampradaya which also exists in the western world apart and outside from ISKCON.

May be it won't get so far since meanwhile ISKCON NA has accomplished to change and isnt actually listed anymore as Vaishnava preaching movement but rather as "Hindu Temple Shop.org" or "Hindu Temple Restaurant.org"- the Gaudiya sampradaya being returned to where it came from in West-Bengal. Or is there something else?

[Guruvani]

 

From Jiva Goswami's Bhagavat Sandarbha

 

 

 

You claim that the brahmjyoti is vaikuntha. You also claim that the jiva comes from the brahmajyoti. We are taught that the tatastha sakti is the source or the same as the jiva and that the spiritual world is the same or manifested from cit sakti (swarupa sakti).

 

If the brahmajyoti is the same as vaikuntha then that would contradict the teaching that the jiva is manifest from tatastha sakti and that the spiritual world manifests from swarupa sakti. If the brahmjyoti is the spiritual world then that would mean that the jiva is manifest from swarupa sakti instead of tatastha sakti. But clearly we are told that the tatastha sakti is neither in the spiritual world nor the material world, it is on the border between the two.

 

In "Sri Caitanya's Teachings" Bhaktisiddhanta writes

 

 

 

Tattva Viveka 2.4 by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

 

Bhaktivinoda writes in Jaiva Dharma

 

 

 

From Bhaktisiddhanta's "Vaisnavism Real and Apparent"

 

 

 

 

 

From Srila Prabhupada

 

 

C.C. Madhya 20.108-109

 

 

 

If the jiva originates from the brahmajyoti and the brahmajyoti is the spiritual world then the above statements are wrong. Here Srila Prabhupada quotes Bhaktivinoda who states that the jiva comes from neither the spiritual nor material world. Therefore the brahmajyoti cannot be considered to be the same as Vaikuntha. Just like everything is comprised of brahman, which is spiritual, including vaikuntha, but at the same time not everything is considered to be comprised of spiritual energy. Maya sakti is considered to be different then cit sakti, the material world is said to be different from the spiritual world, one is said to be comprised of cit sakti and the other is said to be comprised of maya sakti. But still they are both comprised of brahman and can be said to be the same thing. So even though the brahmajyoti is everywhere, still vaikuntha is considered to be different then the brahmajyoti because they are manifested as different. So that is why brahmajyoti is different then vaikuntha. Even though ultimately they are both simply manifestations of brahman or Krishna, still they are categorized as different for various reasons. The vedic teachings categorize brahman depending on what action Krishna is taking.

 

Bhaktivinoda writes in Jaiva Dharma

 

 

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag.3.16.26, purport)

 

This ordinary living being is of two kinds--nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purport)

For the most part I think you have it right.

I tend to disagree in the sense that the Vaikuntha and the brahmajyoti also pervade the maha-tattva.

Jivas that get manifested in the maha-tattva are called marginal.

Otherwise they are no different than any spiritual spark in the brahmajyoti of Vaikuntha.

 

They are called marginal only because they were manifested in the maha-tattva. Otherwise, they are the same potency as the brahmajyoti spirit sparks.

 

Marginal is their location.

It is not their consititutional position.

They come from the effulgence of Sankarsan just like the spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti in Vaikuntha.

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag.3.16.26, purport)

 

 

Where I disagree with you is that you say that the spirit sparks in the self-illuminated spiritual sky of Vaikuntha are not in Vaikuntha.

 

I say they are.

You say they aren't, otherwise, we agree.

[suchandra]

 

Where I disagree with you is that you say that the spirit sparks in the self-illuminated spiritual sky of Vaikuntha are not in Vaikuntha.

 

I say they are.

You say they aren't, otherwise, we agree.

No you don't agree, please admit! The concepts of a spiritual sky in Vaikuntha and a spiritual sky who is NOT in Vaikuntha are so far totally different, how you can say this is agreement?

What is a spiritual sky NOT in Vaikuntha? This can only mean one thing, the heavenly planets - not Vaikuntha=kuntha=material sphere.

So, the living entities are created in the heavenly planets, that's what Siva prabhu believes.

 

"The material planets, they are not Vaikuntha; they are kuntha. Here, in these planets, anyone living, he is always full of anxiety, kuntha. In the Vaikuntha planets there is no such thing as anxiety. That is the difference between the spiritual and material planets. Vaikuntha planets means without any anxiety. Here everyone is full of anxiety, whatever he may be. He may be Lord Brahma or he may be Mr. Ant, small, very insignificant. Everyone is full of kuntha. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam. Samudvigna, fully anxious, "What will happen next? What will happen next? How things will go on?" This anxiety. He may be very rich man or very poor man. The anxiety must be there. Why? Sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat: [sB 7.5.5] "Because they have accepted this material body."

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.26.28

Bombay, January 5, 1975

[Guruvani]

 

No you don't agree, please admit! The concepts of a spiritual sky in Vaikuntha and a spiritual sky who is NOT in Vaikuntha are so far totally different, how you can say this is agreement?

What is a spiritual sky NOT in Vaikuntha? This can only mean one thing, the heavenly planets - not Vaikuntha=kuntha=material sphere.

So, the living entities are created in the heavenly planets, that's what Siva prabhu believes.

 

 

 

I haven't see anything written by Shiva saying that he thinks that living entities are created in heavenly planets.

I think his understanding is much more correct than that.

 

He says, from what I can gather and which seems to be what shastra is saying, that the fallen jivas are manifested in the Viraja where the tatastha-shakti of Maha-Vishnu is manifested. It is called tatastha-shakti because it is manifested on the marginal plane between the material and spiritual world.

The same shakti manifested in Vaikuntha is not marginal.

 

I share the same idea.

Actually, he is correct in saying that not even a spark in the self-illuminating brahmajyoti can fall down as outside the Viraja in the Vaikuntha realm.

However, the Viraja is also spiritual.

It is the perspiration of Maha-Vishnu.

It is spiritual water of sorts.

 

Maha-Vishnu lies down in that Viraja (causal ocean) and manifests his jiva shakti in that marginal tatastha realm of the Viraja.

 

The jivas manifested in the Viraja are marginal because they are manifested in that marginal plane.

 

There are unlimited jivas in the brahmajyoti of Vaikuntha that are not manifested in the marginal plane but within the svarupa-shakti.

Those jivas cannot fall down because they have no exposure to Maya in the mahat-tattva.

Only the marginal jivas manifested in the Viraja in exposure to Maya-shakti can fall down.

 

Shiva has got it right.

But, he seems to say that there is no brahmajyoti in Vaikuntha but only on the outer limits of Vaikuntha. I disagree with that.

It is both. Not one or the other as he seems to be saying.

The brahmajyoti is all pervading in Vaikuntha and in the material world.

There is no place in all of existence where the brahmajyoti does not pervade.

 

Mostly I was arguing with him for sport and to incite discussion and debate.

This also helps me to understand questions that need to be addressed and answered authoritatively through shastra.

 

I haven't seen anyone on this forum yet that has the technical aspects of the siddhanta down as precisely as Shiva.

 

I am impressed.

He has passed beyond ISKCON myth and dogma and found the actual shastric Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I commend him for his sharp intellect and non-political dedication to understanding siddhanta proper.

 

Very few if any ISKCON devotees have it down that good.

There are a few I have seen on the web that know the shastric siddhanta, but they are not ISKCON politicians.

 

The few in ISKCON that do know the siddhanta won't tell the truth because they are not willing to take the flack for going against the GBC position papers and political position. They are more concerned with maintaining GBC rubber stamp approval and keeping the positions as ISKCON preachers.

 

The GBC is too embroiled in politics to do a deep study of shastra.

They are distracted by externals; position and prestige within the society.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Rain

Artist(Band):The Beatles

 

If the rain comes they run and hide their heads.

They might as well be dead.

If the rain comes, if the rain comes.

When the sun shines they slip into the shade

(When the sun shines down.)

And sip their lemonade.

(When the sun shines down.)

When the sun shines, when the sun shines.

Rain, I don't mind.

Shine, the weather's fine.

I can show you that when it starts to rain,

(When the Rain comes down.)

Everything's the same.

(When the Rain comes down.)

I can show you, I can show you.

Rain, I don't mind.

Shine, the weather's fine.

Can you hear me, that when it rains and shines,

(When it Rains and shines.)

It's just a state of mind?

(When it rains and shines.)

Can you hear me, can you hear me?

[shiva]

 

I haven't see anything written by Shiva saying that he thinks that living entities are created in heavenly planets.

I think his understanding is much more correct than that.

 

He says, from what I can gather and which seems to be what shastra is saying, that the fallen jivas are manifested in the Viraja where the tatastha-shakti of Maha-Vishnu is manifested. It is called tatastha-shakti because it is manifested on the marginal plane between the material and spiritual world.

The same shakti manifested in Vaikuntha is not marginal.

 

I share the same idea.

Actually, he is correct in saying that not even a spark in the self-illuminating brahmajyoti can fall down as outside the Viraja in the Vaikuntha realm.

However, the Viraja is also spiritual.

It is the perspiration of Maha-Vishnu.

It is spiritual water of sorts.

 

Maha-Vishnu lies down in that Viraja (causal ocean) and manifests his jiva shakti in that marginal tatastha realm of the Viraja.

 

The jivas manifested in the Viraja are marginal because they are manifested in that marginal plane.

 

There are unlimited jivas in the brahmajyoti of Vaikuntha that are not manifested in the marginal plane but within the svarupa-shakti.

Those jivas cannot fall down because they have no exposure to Maya in the mahat-tattva.

Only the marginal jivas manifested in the Viraja in exposure to Maya-shakti can fall down.

 

Shiva has got it right.

But, he seems to say that there is no brahmajyoti in Vaikuntha but only on the outer limits of Vaikuntha. I disagree with that.

It is both. Not one or the other as he seems to be saying.

The brahmajyoti is all pervading in Vaikuntha and in the material world.

There is no place in all of existence where the brahmajyoti does not pervade.

 

Mostly I was arguing with him for sport and to incite discussion and debate.

This also helps me to understand questions that need to be addressed and answered authoritatively through shastra.

 

I haven't seen anyone on this forum yet that has the technical aspects of the siddhanta down as precisely as Shiva.

 

I am impressed.

He has passed beyond ISKCON myth and dogma and found the actual shastric Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I commend him for his sharp intellect and non-political dedication to understanding siddhanta proper.

 

Very few if any ISKCON devotees have it down that good.

There are a few I have seen on the web that know the shastric siddhanta, but they are not ISKCON politicians.

 

The few in ISKCON that do know the siddhanta won't tell the truth because they are not willing to take the flack for going against the GBC position papers and political position. They are more concerned with maintaining GBC rubber stamp approval and keeping the positions as ISKCON preachers.

 

The GBC is too embroiled in politics to do a deep study of shastra.

They are distracted by externals; position and prestige within the society.

 

Aw shucks

 

I'd like to thank my manager, my agent, my wonderful writers, love you guys. I want to thank my wonderful cast and crew, they're the best in the business and I love working with you guys! I want to thank my hair stylist who makes me what I am, she's my best friend, really, I love you. Especially I want to thank my mom who has supported me from the start and has always believed in me even when no one else did. I love you mom!. Of yeah I almost forgot, thank you Jesus, couldn't have done it without you I had a speech, but I lost it...no wait a sec...here it is...ahem...

[shiva]

Guruvani you wrote

 

 

The jivas manifested in the Viraja are marginal because they are manifested in that marginal plane.

 

There are unlimited jivas in the brahmajyoti of Vaikuntha that are not manifested in the marginal plane but within the svarupa-shakti.

 

That is not quite what I am saying. All jivas are manifest from tatastha sakti or rather are tatastha sakti. Nowhere are we told that a jiva is anything but tatastha sakti at any time, nitya baddha or nitya mukta. We do have many sources where we are told that all jivas are tatastha sakti at all times. As Bhaktivinoda points out:

 

 

Babaji: No, cit-sakti is the complete potency of Krishna. Whatever it manifests are all nitya-siddha objects. The jiva is not nitya-siddha; he becomes sadhana-siddha through sadhana and enjoys bliss like the nitya-siddha. The four types of sakhis of Sri Radha are nitya-siddhas; they are kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha, who is the personification of the cit-sakti.

 

All the jivas have appeared from the jiva-sakti of Lord Krishna. Just as cit-sakti is Krishna's complete potency, similarly jiva-sakti is His incomplete potency. All complete objects have appeared from the complete potency, similarly from the incomplete potency come the unlimited atomic jivas.

 

The cit sakti (swarupa sakti, antaranga sakti) or the internal energy produces "complete objects" from the "complete potency". What that means is that the cit sakti produces things which are of the nature of cit sakti. What is that nature?

 

From Bhaktivinoda's The Bhagavat:

 

 

Antaranga-shakti (cit sakti)

 

Antaranga is that which pertains to the proper Entity of the Absolute Person. It is also called Swarupa-shakti for this reason. The literal meaning of the word antaranga is "that which belongs to the inner body." Shakti is rendered as "power."

 

The cit sakti is non different from Krishna. Whatever is manifest by the cit sakti is non different from Krishna.

 

From the Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

 

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words of Bhagavat Sandarbha:

 

 

The Absolute Truth is one. His natural characteristic is that He has incon-ceivable potency. His inconceivable potencies are reposed in four different stages: His personal form (svarupa), the expansions of His divine form (tad-rupa-vaibhava), the jivas, and the material ingredients (pradhana). With re-gard to the sun, there is the sungod, the internal power of the sun, and that power when it is expanded as the external rays of the sun. Then there is the shadow of the sun, that is to say, the sun's reflection which is in darkness, far from the sun's influence.

 

The cit sakti manifests the swarupa or form of Krishna and his tad-rupa-vaibhava, his incarnations or personal expansions, which includes the spiritual world, they are non different from Krishna. What does tad-rupa-vaibhava mean?

 

"Tad" in this case means various, "rupa" means form, and this is how "vaibhava" is described:

 

 

CC Madhya 20.170: "It is astounding that Lord Sri Krsna, who is one without a second, expanded Himself in sixteen thousand similar forms to marry sixteen thousand queens in their respective homes.'

 

CC Madhya 20.171: "If one form or feature is differently manifested according to different emotional features, it is called vaibhava-prakasa.

 

CC Madhya 20.172: "When the Lord expands Himself in innumerable forms, there is no difference in the forms, but due to different features, bodily colors and weapons, the names are different.

 

CC Madhya 20.173: "'In different Vedic scriptures, there are prescribed rules and regulative principles for worshiping different types of forms. When one is purified by these rules and regulations, he worships You, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although manifested in many forms, You are one.'

 

CC Madhya 20.174: "The first manifestation of the vaibhava feature of Krsna is Sri Balaramaji. Sri Balarama and Krsna have different bodily colors, but otherwise Sri Balarama is equal to Krsna in all respects.

 

CC Madhya 20.175: "An example of vaibhava-prakasa is the son of Devaki. He sometimes has two hands and sometimes four hands.

 

So tad-rupa-vaibhava means various forms of Krishna. In other words what Jiva Goswami is saying is that Krishna manifests in 4 ways. His form and the vaibhava expansions of his form which are all Krishna in different forms, the jivas, and the material energy.

 

The cit sakti manifests both the form of Krishna and his tad-rupa-vaibhava, which includes all his personal expansions and the entire spritual world, all of which is a vaibhava or non different expansion of Krishna. Krishna is identical to his cit sakti and he is identical to the sprititual world because it is a vaibhava expansion of Krishna.

 

Purport Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.62

 

 

The Absolute Truth is therefore the substance of reality, eternally manifest in three energies. The manifestation of the internal energy of the Lord is the inconceivably variegated spiritual world, the manifestation of the marginal energy comprises the living entities, and the manifestation of the external energy is the material cosmos. Therefore the Absolute Truth includes these four principles -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, His internal energy, His marginal energy and His external energy. The form of the Lord and the expansions of His form as svayam-rupa and vaibhava-prakasa are directly the enjoyers of the internal energy, which is the eternal exhibitor of the spiritual world, the most confidential of the manifestations of energy.

 

 

Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya lila 8.154-155:

 

 

Lord Krsna is sac-cidnananda-vigraha the transcendental form of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. Therefore His personal energy (svarupa-sakti, the internal energy of the Lord) has three different forms. Hladini is His energy of ecstasy, beauty, sweetness, charm, harmony; sandhini, His energy of eternal existence, or reality; and samvit, of cognizance, knowledge, awareness.

 

Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.71, purport

 

 

The sandhini portion, Sri Krishna’s internal potency, has manifested the all-attractive form of Sri Krishna, and the same internal potency, in the hladini feature, has presented Srimati Radharani

 

And from Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Govinda Bhasya

 

 

The Sruti-sastras and other scriptures explain that through the svarupa-sakti the Supreme Lord manifests as the best of males

 

Here Baladeva Vidybhusana explains how Krishna is identical to the spritual world

 

 

From Govinda Bhasya

 

Sutra 38

 

 

vyatiharo visimshanti hitara-vat

 

vyatiharo-changeable; visimshanti - distinguish;hi - indeed;

itara - others; vat - like.

 

 

Like others, they say they are interchangeable.

 

Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana

 

 

In the Brihad-aranyaka Upanishad (1.4.15) it is said:

 

 

atmanam eva lokam upasita

 

 

"One should worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead as identical with His spiritual abode."

 

This passage of the Sruti-sastra clearly shows that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is identical with His spiritual abode and the spiritual abode is identical with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this way it is proved that they are mutually identical. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the same as His spiritual abode, and the spiritual abode is the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

In the Gopala-tapani Upanishad, in the passage beginning sat-pundarika-nayanam", as well as in the passage beginning "sakshat prakriti-paro 'yam atma gopalah", the Sruti-sastra clearly explains that the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is identical with the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is identical with His own form. Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead,l whose form is full of knowledge and bliss, manifests Himself, by the agency of His inconceivable potency, as His own spiritual world, which He reveals only to His devotee and to no one else. In this way it is proved that as one meditates on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, so one should also meditate on the Supreme Personality of Godhead's spiritual abode.

 

 

So the point I am trying to make is that when Bhaktivinoda says:

 

"All complete objects have appeared from the complete [cit] potency"

 

What he is saying is that the cit sakti manifests Krishna's form and his tad-rupa-vaibhava, which includes his personal expansions and the spiritual world, which is non different from him. The jivas are not manifested from cit sakti, whether they are nitya mukta or nitya baddha, all jivas are a manifestation of tatastha or jiva sakti.

 

Here Bhaktivinoda is saying that the nitya mukta jivas are manifested from Baladeva who presides over jiva sakti.

 

 

Lord Krishna presiding over each of His potencies manifest His various expansions correspondingly. Presiding over the cit potency He manifests His Krishna form and that of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. Presiding over His jiva-sakti He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja. Becoming situated in His maya-sakti He manifests the three Vishnu forms--Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi, and Garobhodakasayi.

 

From His Krishna form He manifests all the cit entities. From His Baladeva form as Sesha tattva He manifests the nitya-muktas, associate jivas to render service in eight ways to Lord Krishna, the Seshi tattva.

 

And here Bhaktivinoda says that all jivas are a manifestation of jiva sakti

 

 

Babaji: No, cit-sakti is the complete potency of Krishna. Whatever it manifests are all nitya-siddha objects. The jiva is not nitya-siddha; he becomes sadhana-siddha through sadhana and enjoys bliss like the nitya-siddha. The four types of sakhis of Sri Radha are nitya-siddhas; they are kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha, who is the personification of the cit-sakti.

 

All the jivas have appeared from the jiva-sakti of Lord Krishna. Just as cit-sakti is Krishna's complete potency, similarly jiva-sakti is His incomplete potency. All complete objects have appeared from the complete potency, similarly from the incomplete potency come the unlimited atomic jivas.

 

When he mentions nitya siddha he says the jiva is not nitya siddha, he references the kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha as examples of nitya siddha. What is kaya-vyuha? From C.C. Adi 1.81

 

 

svayam-rupa krsnera kaya-vyuha----tanra sama

 

bhakta sahite haya tanhara avarana

 

svayam-rupa--His own original form (two-handed Krsna); krsnera--of Lord Krsna; kaya-vyuha--personal expansions; tanra--with Him; sama--equal; bhakta--the devotees; sahite--associated with; haya--are; tanhara--His; avarana--covering.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The personal associates of the primeval Lord, Sri Krsna, are His devotees, who are identical with Him. He is complete with His entourage of devotees.

 

PURPORT

 

Sri Krsna and His various personal expansions are nondifferent in potential power. These expansions are associated with further, secondary expansions, or servitor expansions, who are called devotees.

 

They are personal expansions of God, swamsa expansions. They are not jivas. So what he is saying is that all jivas are tatastha or jiva sakti, jiva sakti is presided over by Balarama. Baladeva manifests the jiva sakti in vraja as the nitya mukta jivas.

 

In another place in Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma he says

 

 

This example of course, explains only a small part of the Lord's nature. His svarupa (original form) is His form of eternity, knowledge and bliss. His svarupa-vaibhava (manifestations of His form) are His spiritual abode, name, associates and paraphernalia. The jiva-sakti is the abode of the numberless eternally liberated and conditioned individual souls, who are tiny particles of spirit.

 

Krsna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the sun. Krsna is like a blazing fire. In the centre of the fire is the cit-sakti (svarupa sakti), it is present in fullness. In addition to the centre there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire. The same way the Krsna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight. The rays of sunlight are particles of His internal potency (svarupa sakti). Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are the individual spirit souls. The internal potency (cit sakti) manifests the Krsna-sun planet itself. The sunlight emanating from that planet is manifested by the cit-sakti and the individual particles of light are manifested by the jiva-sakti. Therefore the individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti.

 

He includes the nitya mukta jivas in the jiva or tatastha sakti.

 

In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami goes into alot of detail about the jiva always being tatastha sakti.

 

 

sakti-rupatvam casya tatastha-cakty-atmakatvat. tatha tadiya-racmi-sthaniyatve 'pi nitya-tad-acrayitvat tad- vyatirekena vyatirekat hetur jivo 'sya sargadeh ity anusarena jagat-srstau tat-sadhanatvat. dravya-rupatve 'pi pradhana- samyac cavagamyate.

 

sakti-rupatvam - the nature of the potency; ca - and; asya - of Him; tatastha-cakty-atmakatvat - because of being the marginal potency; tatha - so; tadiya-racmi-sthaniyatve - because of beinmg partcles of light; api - also; nitya-tad-acrayitvat - because of taking shelter of Him eternally; tad-vyatirekena - by being different from Him; vyatirekat - because of difference; hetuh - the cause; jivah - the individual spirit soul; asya - of Him; sargadeh - beginning with creation; iti - thus; anusarena - by following; jagat-srstau - in the creation of the material world; tat-sadhanatvat - because of that method; dravya-rupatve - in the nature of the thing; api - also; pradhana - of the most important; samyat - because of likeness; ca - also; avagamyate - is known.

 

The individual spirit soul is the marginal potency of the Supreme Lord. The soul is a particle of light manifested from the Lord. The soul eternally rests within the Lord. In these ways the individual soul is different from the Supreme Lord. Still, in other ways, the individual soul is certainly like the Lord. The individual soul even shares, to an extent, the Lord's activity of creating the material world.

 

 

tad evam saktitve 'py anyatvam asya tatasthatvat. tatasthatvam ca maya-cakty-atitatvat. asyavidya-para-bhavadi- rupena dosena paramatmano lepabhavac cobhaya-kotav apravecat.

 

tat - that; evam - thus; saktitve - as a potency; api - also; anyatvam - being another; asya - of him; tatasthatvat - because of being the marginal potency; tatasthatvam - the state of being the marginal potency; ca - and; maya-cakty-atitatvat - because of being beyond the maya potency; asya - of him; avidya-para-bhava - the state of being beyond ignorance; adi - beginning; rupena - by the form; dosena - with the defect; paramatmanah - of the Supersoul; lepa - conmtact; abhavac - because of the absence; ca - and; ubhaya - both; kotau - on the border; apravecat - because of not entering.

 

Because He is the marginal potency, the individual soul is different from the Lord. Because he is superior to the maya potency of material ignorance, the individual soul is called the marginal potency. Because his position is on the border between the nature of the potency of material ignorance and the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual spirit soul is called the marginal potency.

 

 

 

uktam ca tatasthatvam sri-narada-pancaratre yat tatastham tu cid-rupam sva-samvedyad vinirgatam raYjitam guna-ragena sa jiva iti kathyate. ity adau.

 

uktam - said; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of being the marginal potency; sri-narada-pancaratre - in Sri Narada- pancaratra; yat - what; tatastham - marginal; tu - indeed; cid- rupam - spiritual in nature; sva-samvedyat - because of self-awareness; vinirgatam - gone away; raYjitam - agitated; guna - of the modes; ragena - by desire; sa - he; jiva - the individual spirit soul; iti - thus; kathyate - is said; iti - thus; adau - beginning.

 

 

That the individual soul is the Lord's marginal potency is also confirmed by these words of Sri Narada-pancaratra:

 

"The Lord's marginal potency, which is spiritual, conscious, and liable to the contamination of the material modes, is called the individual soul."

 

 

 

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante.

 

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.

 

In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord's separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord's personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord's lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.

 

 

 

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo 'nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

 

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

 

Thus the Lord's marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord's glories and the other group is not aware of them.

 

 

 

tatra prathamo 'ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.

 

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord's potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.

 

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord's internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:

 

"Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation."

 

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord.

 

 

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate

 

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.

 

In this way we have described the Lord's marginal potency. we have already described the Lord's internal potency. Now we will dessribe the Lord's external potency.

 

 

 

Whether you are in Goloka or the material world you are always tatastha sakti. So tatastha sakti is not a locative description, it is an ontological description. We are not and cannot become cit sakti because cit sakt is identical to Krishna, we are not maya sakti either, we are tatastha sakti. We can come under the dominion of the cit sakti or the maya sakti and then we partake of their nature, but we do not become them. When we are under the dominion of the maya sakti then we are affected by the qualities of the maya sakti and affected negatively by illusion, ignorance, and suffering in various ways. When we are under the dominion of the cit sakti then we are affected by the qualities of the cit sakti which is association with Krishna and his devotees, knowledge and bliss.

[Guruvani]

 

Whether you are in Goloka or the material world you are always tatastha sakti. So tatastha sakti is not a locative description, it is an ontological description. We are not and cannot become cit sakti because cit sakt is identical to Krishna, we are not maya sakti either, we are tatastha sakti. We can come under the dominion of the cit sakti or the maya sakti and then we partake of their nature, but we do not become them. When we are under the dominion of the maya sakti then we are affected by the qualities of the maya sakti and affected negatively by illusion, ignorance, and suffering in various ways. When we are under the dominion of the cit sakti then we are affected by the qualities of the cit sakti which is association with Krishna and his devotees, knowledge and bliss.

 

I don't think I agree with you.

The marginal potency is between the material and spiritual world manifesting in the Viraja.

I don't accept that there is any marginal potency anywhere within the realm of Goloka.

All the devotees of Krishna in Goloka are transformations of sandhini-shakti - not tatastha shakti.

There is no marginal plane in Goloka.

That is a misuderstanding.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.65

 

mātā, pitā, sthāna, gṛha, śayyāsana āra

e-saba kṛṣṇera śuddha-sattvera vikāra

 

SYNONYMS

mātā — mother; pitā — father; sthāna — place; gṛha — house; śayya-āsana — beds and seats; āra — and; e-saba — all these; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; śuddha-sattvera — of the śuddha-sattva; vikāra — transformations.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Kṛṣṇa's mother, father, abode, house, bedding, seats and so on are all transformations of śuddha-sattva.

 

 

PURPORT

Lord Kṛṣṇa's father, mother and household affairs are all displayed in the same viśuddha-sattva existence. A living entity situated in the status of pure goodness can understand the form, qualities and other features of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins on the platform of pure goodness. Although there is a faint realization of Kṛṣṇa at first, Kṛṣṇa is actually realized as Vāsudeva, the absolute proprietor of omnipotence or the prime predominating Deity of all potencies. When the living entity is situated in viśuddha-sattva, transcendental to the three material modes of nature, he can perceive the form, quality and other features of the Supreme Personality of Godhead through his service attitude. The status of pure goodness is the platform of understanding, for the Supreme Lord is always in spiritual existence.

Kṛṣṇa is always all-spiritual. Aside from the parents of the Personality of Godhead, all the other paraphernalia of His existence are also essentially a manifestation of sandhinī-śakti, or a transformation of viśuddha-sattva. To make this more clear, it may be said that this sandhinī-śakti of the internal potency maintains and manifests all the variegatedness of the spiritual world. In the kingdom of God, the Lord's servants and maidservants, His consorts, His father and mother and everything else are all transformations of the spiritual existence of sandhinī-śakti. The existential sandhinī-śakti in the external potency similarly expands all the variegatedness of the material cosmos, from which we can have a glimpse of the spiritual field.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117

 

 

The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life.

 

So, your assertion that a liberated soul after attaining a spiritual body in Goloka is still a marginal jiva is quite off the mark as far as I understand.

 

I think it is rediculous to say that the the devotees of Krishna in Goloka are marginal energy.

 

Marginal energy is manifested in the margin (Viraja) between the material and spiritual worlds.

There is no marginal energy in Goloka proper.

That is a misconception.

[theist]

 

Whether you are in Goloka or the material world you are always tatastha sakti. So tatastha sakti is not a locative description, it is an ontological description.

 

Absolutely! Marginal means endowed with an independent free will. It is this free will that is the boundary line between one living being and another. Without free will there is only absolute oneness with no distinction.

 

We are the marginal energy of Krsna.

[shiva]

Sandhini is the aspect of the cit sakti which manifests and maintains forms and eternal existence. It acts upon the jiva, it manifests the forms of the jiva, and it is present in a minute way within the jiva, but it is not the jiva. As mentioned already by various acaryas all jivas belong to tatastha sakti which is divided into 2 parts, those jivas in the material world and those in the spiritual world.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

 

SYNONYMS

 

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation; surya-amsa -- part and parcel of the sun; kirana -- a ray of sunshine; yaiche -- as; agni-jvala-caya -- molecular particle of fire; svabhavika -- naturally; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara -- three varieties; sakti -- energies; haya -- there are.

 

TRANSLATION

 

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy

 

 

From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma

 

 

The samvit-vrtti of svarupa-sakti manifests all the various moods of the relationships (sambandha-bhavas) within Vraja. Sandhini manifests everything in Vraja that consists of water, earth and so on, such as the villages, forests, gardens, and Giri-Govardhana, which are places of Krsna’s pastimes. It also manifests all the other transcendental objects used in Krsna’s pastimes, as well as the transcendental bodies of Sri Radhika, Sri Krsna, the sakhis, sakhas, cows, dasas and dasis, and so on. Sri Krsna is always engrossed in supreme bliss in the form of the pranaya-vikara of hladini, and being endowed with the various bhavas manifested by the samvit-vrtti, He relishes pranaya-rasa. Through the samvit-vrtti of His para-sakti, Krsna performs activities such as attracting the gopis by playing upon His vamsi, taking the cows out for grazing (go-carana), rasa-lila and other pastimes. Sri Krsna, who is Vraja-vilasi (the enjoyer of pastimes in Vraja), always remains immersed in rasa in His transcendental dhama, which is manifested by the sandhini potency. Amongst all the abodes of His pastimes, the abode of His Vraja pastimes is the sweetest.

 

Vrajanatha: You have just explained that sandhini, samvit, and hladini are all manifestations of svarupa-sakti. You have also said that jivasakti is an atomic part of svarupa-sakti, and that maya-sakti is the reflection of svarupa-sakti. Now kindly explain how the sandhini, samvit, and hladini tendencies act upon the jiva and on maya.

 

Babaji: Jiva-sakti is the atomic potency of svarupa-sakti, and all three aspects of svarupa-sakti are present in it to a minute degree. Thus, the hladini-vrtti is always present in the jiva in the form of brahmananda (spiritual bliss); samvit-vrtti is present in the form of brahma-jnana (transcendental knowledge); and sandhini-vrtti is present in the jiva’s minute form. I will explain this subject matter more clearly when we discuss jiva-tattva. In maya-sakti, the hladinivrtti is manifest in the form of mundane pleasure (jadananda); samvit-vrtti is manifest in the form of material knowledge (bhautika-jnana); and the sandhini-sakti is manifest in the form of the entire material universe, which consists of the fourteen planetary systems and the material bodies of the jivas...

 

... You have explained that cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, and maya-sakti are three manifestations of svarupa-sakti; that hladini, samvit, and sandhini are three functions (vrttis) of svarupasakti; and that these three functions – namely, hladini, samvit, and sandhini – act on the three manifestations, cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, and maya-sakti. All of this is simply the work of sakti.

 

 

From Mahaprabhura Siksa: The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

krsnera svabhavika tina sakti parinati

cic chakti, jiva sakti ara maya sakti

 

Lord Krsna naturally has three enegetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency. (C.C.Madhya 20,111)

 

There is a karika to elaborate on this:

 

saktih svabhaviki krsne tridah cety upapadyate

sandhini tu balam samvij jnanam hladakari kriya

sakti-saktimato bhedo nastiti sara samgrahah

tathapi bheda-vaicitryam acintya-sakti- karyatah

sandhinya sarvam evaitat nama-rupa-gunadikam

cin-maya-bhedato bhedo visva-vaikunthayoh kila

samvida dvi-vidham jnanam cin-maya bhedatah kramat

cin-maya-bhedatah siddham hladinya dvi- vidham sukham

hladini sri svarupa ya saiva priyankari

mahabhava-svarupa sa hladini varsabhanavi

 

In the scriptures, Krsna's three intrinsic energies are described as bala (sandhini) , jnana (samvit) and kriya (hladini) . The energies and the source of the energies are non-different. This is the conclusion of the scriptures. However, through the operation of the inconceivable energy of the Lord, variety becomes manifest. The function of the sandhini (existence) sakti is manifestation of name, form and qualities of things. This brings about the material existence through sandhini's material function and the spiritual existence through its spiritual function. Jnana also has two varieties, spiritual and material samvit. Similarly there are spiritual and material hladini energies which give rise to spiritual and material pleasure. The hladini sakti is the dear servant of Krsna. She becomes Radha, the daughter of Vrsabhanu in manifesting mahabhava, the highest ecstasy of spiritual love...

 

...In the realm of cit sakti, the sandhini gives rise to the qualities, the objects, and all other things which assist in the Lord's pastimes. Krsna's form, name, qualities and pastimes are all due to the sandhini potency. By the influence of the samvit sakti on the cit sakti all the spiritual moods arise. By the hladini influence on the cit sakti, prema expands.

 

By the influence of the sandhini on the jiva sakti, the jiva's spiritual existence, name and place appear. Through the influence of samvit on the jiva sakti the knowledge of God arises. Through the hladini influence the jiva experiences spiritual bliss. The jiva's experience of bliss of samadhi by practicing astanga yoga and merging into brahman are also the effects of the samvit on the jiva.

 

By the influence of sandhini on maya sakti, the material universe composed of fourteen material planetary systems, the gross and subtle bodies of the jivas and material senses, and the goals of the jivas such as svaga, are manifested. The material name, form qualities and actions of the conditioned jiva all arise from this. By the influence of the samvit on the maya sakti, the worries, hopes, speculations and thoughts of the conditioned jiva arise. By the influence of hladini on the maya sakti, gross material bliss and the subtle material happiness of svarga arise.

 

One should understand that the sandhini, samvit and hladini manifest their pure, full form in the cit sakti. In the jiva sakti, these appear in very minute quantity. In the maya sakti these appear in a perverted or shadow form. For the jiva, the forms manifested in maya are detrimental. In the jiva himself, these three influences are not detrimental but dilute. Without joining to the hladini manifested in the cit sakti, the jiva cannot experience full spiritual bliss. Such joining cannot be accomplished, except through the mercy of Krsna or his devotee.

 

From Mahaprabhura Siksa: The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

Narada in the Pancaratra has spoken of the tatastha sakti.

 

yat tatastham tu cid rupam svakam vedyad vinirgatam

 

The particle of consciousness emanating from the cit-sakti is called tatastha.

 

Jiva Gosvami has explained about the nature of the tatastha sakti:

 

tatasthatvam ca maya-sakty atitatvat

asyavidya-para-bhavadi-rupena dosena

paramatmano lepabhavac ca ubhaya kotav

apravistes tasya tac caktitve saty api

paramatmanas tal lepabhavas ca yatha kvacid

eka-desa-sthe rasmau chayaya tiraskrte'pi

suryasyatiraskaras tadvat

 

The tatastha or jiva sakti is different from maya sakti. It is not considered in the category of maya. However, because of the fault of being overcome by ignorance, the jiva sakti cannot be considered in the category of Paramatma, which is free from the influence of maya. Though the jiva is the sakti of the Paramatma, Paramatma is not touched by the jiva's contamination of ignorance. Though a particular ray of the sun may be covered by shadow, the sun is not covered.

 

Paramatma Sandarbha 37

 

These jivas are of two types: eternally conditioned and eternally liberated.

 

Sri Jiva says:

 

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah

tatra tasam varga-dvayam eko vargo' nadita

 

eva bhagavad-unmukhah anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paranmukhah svabhavatas tadiya-jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavat ca tatra prathamo' ntaranga- sakti vilasanu

grhito nitya-bhagavat-parikara rupo garudadikah asya

ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav

apravesat aparam tu tat paranmukhatva-

dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah samsari

 

The number of jivas is unlimited. They are divided into two classes. One class is favorable to the Lord without beginning. The other class is averse to the Lord without beginning. The first class is favorable to the Lord because of knowledge of relationship with the Lord. The second class is averse to the Lord because of lack of that knowledge. The favorable jivas are all recipients of the Lords splendid internal energy. They are the eternal associates of the Lord, such as Garuda. They are not in the category of the Lord, as in shown by the scriptures. They are still tatastha or jiva. The second class of jivas is devoid of the help of the internal energy as they are averse to the Lord. Because of this lack, they are overwhelmed by maya and take repeated birth in the material world.

 

Paramatma Sandarbha 47

 

cit suryah paramatma vai jivas cit paramanavah

tat kirana-kanah suddhas cinmad arthah svarupatah

acintya-sakti-sambhuta-tatastha-dharmatah kila

cit svarupasya jivasya maya-vasyam ca sidhyati

apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param

jiva bhutam mahabaho yayedam dharyate jagat iti

yad bhagavad vakyam gitopanisadi srutam

jivasya tena saktitve siddhe bhedo na sidhyati

jivo maya-vasah kintu mayadhisah paresvarah

etad amnaya vakyat tu bhedo jivasya sarvada

bhedabheda prakaso'yam yugapaj jiva eva hi

kevalabheda-vadasyavaidikatvam nirupitam

maya-vasatva-dharmena mayavado na sambhavet

yato maya'para saktih paraya jiva nirmitah

maya-vrttir ahankaro jivas tad atiricyate

maya-sanga vihino'pi jivo na hi vinasyati

mayavada-bhramartanam sarvam hasyas- padam matam

advaitasya niskalasya nirliptasya ca brahmanah

pratibimba-paricchedau katham syatam ca kutracit

advaita siddha labhe'pi katham nirbhayata bhavet

rajju-sarpa-ghatakasa-sukti-rajata-yuktisu

advaita-hanir evasyad yathodahrtesu vai

brahma-lina yada maya tada tasyah kriya katham

kasya va sprhaya tasyah pravrttir upajayate

brahmeccha yadi tad dhetuh kutas tan nirvikarata

mayeccha yadi va hetur durbhagyam brahmano'hi tat

mayavadam asac chastram sarvam veda- viruddhakam

prakrtam yuktim astritya prakrtartha- vidambanam

acintya-sakti-visvasat jnanam sunirmalam bhavet

brahmani nirvikare syad iccha-sakt-visesatah

tad iccha sambhava srstis tridha tad iksana- sruteh

mayika jaiviki suddha katham yuktih pravartate

naham manye suvedeti no na vedeti veda ca

sruti-vakyam idam labdhva' cintya-saktim vicaraya

bheda-vakyani laksyani dva suparnadi suktisu

tattvam asyadi vakyesu cabhedatvam pradarsitam

sarvajna-veda-vakyanam virodho nasti kutracit

bhedabhedatmakam tattvam saytam nityam ca sarthakam

eka-desatham asritya canya-desartha- kalpanam

matavada-prakasartham sruti-sastra-kadarthanam

karma-mimamsakanam yad vijnanam sruti- nindanam

murkhatvam eva tesam tat na grahyam tattvavij janaih

vibhinnamso hi jivo'yam tatastha-sakti- karyatah

sva-svarupa-bhramad asya maya-karagrha-sthitih

 

Paramatma is the spiritual sun. All the jivas are particles of his rays. The real nature of the jiva is purely spiritual. The jiva is by nature possessed of individual identity. Because of the nature of tatastha sakti which emanates from the inconceivable energy of paramatma, the jiva, being minute, is liable to fall under the control of maya. In the verse of Bhagavad Gita, Krsna teaches that the jiva is a superior energy to maya, and thus the jiva is not qualitatively different from paramatma, nor is he the same. The jiva is controlled by maya and the Lord is the controller of maya. Through this scriptural statement it is understood that the jiva is simultaneously different and non-different from the Lord. The doctrine of absolute monism is not according to Vedic evidence...

 

 

...Thus, the Vedas conclude that the Supreme Lord embodies the inconceivable principle of simultaneous oneness and diference, which is the absoulte reality, the truth eternal. To take statements out of context from one part of the Veda and in attempting to give one's own interpretation to them, interpolate the meanings from another section to support one's fabricated idea is to misconstrue the Vedic conclusion. Similarly, those who are karma-mimamsaka, i.e. those trying to interpret everything in terms of fruitive activity as the highest goal of the Vedas, blatantly exhibit their disrespect for the Veda. This is their foolishness and perversion. Real scholars do not accept their views. The Vedic conclusion is that jiva is not in the category of Divinity, but is Sri Krsna's spearated part and parcel belonging to His marginal energy - tatastha-sakti. Jiva is pure spirit soul, completely spiritual, and is always, by nature, Krsna's subordinate follower, but, because of forgetting his original identity and developing another consciousness by turning away from the Lord, he becomes imprisoned by maya.

 

From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma

 

 

That svarupa-sakti, Srimati Radhika, has three kinds of potency of activity (kriya-sakti). They are known as: cit-sakti, jiva-sakti and maya-sakti. The cit-sakti is also called the internal potency (antaranga-sakti); maya-sakti is called the external potency (bahiranga-sakti); and the jiva-sakti is called the marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). Although svarupa-sakti is one, She acts in these three ways. All the eternal characteristics of svarupa-sakti are completely present in the cit-sakti, present to a minute degree in the jiva-sakti, and present in a distorted way in the maya-sakti.

 

From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

 

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).

 

Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

 

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)...

 

...Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

 

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

[Guruvani]

 

Absolutely! Marginal means endowed with an independent free will. It is this free will that is the boundary line between one living being and another. Without free will there is only absolute oneness with no distinction.

 

We are the marginal energy of Krsna.

Yes, you are marginal energy.

But, the liberates souls who enter Goloka and attain spiritual bodies in a rasa with Krishna are not marginal potency.

They are integrated into the internal potency.

 

You guys keep saying that marginal is not a place.

Well, Srila Bhaktivinoda and Srila Prabhupada describe it as a place between the spiritual and material energies.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109, purport

 

 

You belong to Kṛṣṇa's marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.

The liberated devotees in Goloka are not in that position.

They are not between the material and spiritual energy.

They are securely integrated into the internal potency as an extension of Srimati Radharani or Lord Baladeva.

 

To say that the liberated devotees in Vrajadhama are marginal potency is a serious misconception.

 

They are certainly not marginal potency since they have been surcharged with hladini and sandhini shakti.

 

The claim that marginal jivas remain marginal jivas after liberation is totally wrong.

 

It is another ISKCON myth that will soon enter the history books as a fairytale.

 

I have already presented the verse which states that all the associates and paraphernalia of Krishna are manifested via the sandhini shakti.

 

When the marginal jiva attains his parshada-deha in Goloka he is manifested there via sandhini shakti not tatastha-shakti which only manifests at the marginal place of the Viraja between the material and spiritual world.

 

None of the gopis, parents, cowherd boys, cows, trees or anything in Goloka is tatastha shakti.

They are all manifested of sandhini-shakti.

 

The idea that a manjari in Goloka is a marginal jiva is actually simply laughable and ludicrous.

 

They are manifested through sandhini shakti, not tatastha shakti.

 

As such you fellows are quite incorrect in your assertion that there is tatastha shakti in Goloka.

 

It is ludicrous to propose such a thing.

[Guruvani]

I am not going to keep arguing this issue tit-fot-tat.

Madhavananda das has written a nice piece that I found exactly corresponds to my own conception.

Beyond what is in this thesis by Madhavananda das, I have nothing more to say on the issue. He covers it better than I am capable of.

His document can be found here.

 

http://www.gaudiya.com/pdf/Sac-cid-ananda_and_the_Svarupa_of_the_Jiva.pdf

 

here is a short snipped from the text.

 

 

Reflecting on the ontological difference between tatastha-sakti and antarangasakti,

a thoughtful person may ask whether the jiva will remain a

manifestation of tatastha-sakti after its entrance into the spiritual world. The

answer is practically no, for tatastha is that which is situated (stha) on the

border (tata) of the manifestations of bahiranga-sakti and antaranga-sakti.

 

[Vigraha]

 

Sandhini is the aspect of the cit sakti which manifests and maintains forms and eternal existence. It acts upon the jiva, it manifests the forms of the jiva, and it is present in a minute way within the jiva, but it is not the jiva. As mentioned already by various acaryas all jivas belong to tatastha sakti which is divided into 2 parts, those jivas in the material world and those in the spiritual world.

 

Many cannot accept your interpretation of shastra

 

 

 

No jiva originates from tatastha

 

 

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?” Did we fall from Goloka or did we emerge from tatastha?

 

When it is rightfully said there are two types of jiva souls, what does that really mean? Are there two characteristics of each jiva soul?

 

The answer is yes

 

This clearly means EVERY jiva soul or marginal living entity has both a perpetual Svarupa nitya-siddha body fastened perpetually in the eternal pastimes of Krishna beyond mundane time and space, and a nitya baddha consciousness that enters the material creation of Maha-Vishnu as self centred dreams that can later proceed to the tatastha impersonal condition of a dreamless dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world?

 

The answer again is yes

 

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Krishna. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha.

 

 

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya' kabhu naya

 

 

 

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata".

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

 

This clearly means our true genuine identity did not originate from tatastha

 

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti or tatastha, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent ligh, only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti or tatastha, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

 

Srila Prabhupada -'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya.

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - "It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

 

The only way to 'fall down' into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and enter that dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky, which is one of the petals of the lotus flower in the Spiritual Sky, is by choosing to use ones free will to no longer be Krishna's servant.

 

However, because ones perpetual svarupa body in Goloka is eternally there in Goloka, one only falls down in a sub conscious dreaming state (nitya-baddha) to the mahat-tattva, similar to how one dreams at night while sleeping in their present biological body.

 

Such 'dreams' are then provided ethereal and biological form, vessels or bodies by Maha-Vishnu so they can enter His dreams that are all perishable.

What remains 'imperishable' beyond mundane material time and impermanence is ones perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa bodily identity and active service that every marginal living entity has had eternally without origin.

 

One just has to wake up from their material dreams within Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva and realize this fact by again becoming Krishna Conscious.

[shiva]

Well you can argue, but this is what Bhaktivinoda says as quoted above

 

 

Sri Jiva says:

 

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah

tatra tasam varga-dvayam eko vargo' nadita

 

eva bhagavad-unmukhah anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paranmukhah svabhavatas tadiya-jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavat ca tatra prathamo' ntaranga- sakti vilasanu

grhito nitya-bhagavat-parikara rupo garudadikah asya

ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav

apravesat aparam tu tat paranmukhatva-

dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah samsari

 

The number of jivas is unlimited. They are divided into two classes. One class is favorable to the Lord without beginning. The other class is averse to the Lord without beginning. The first class is favorable to the Lord because of knowledge of relationship with the Lord. The second class is averse to the Lord because of lack of that knowledge. The favorable jivas are all recipients of the Lords splendid internal energy. They are the eternal associates of the Lord, such as Garuda. They are not in the category of the Lord, as in shown by the scriptures. They are still tatastha or jiva. The second class of jivas is devoid of the help of the internal energy as they are averse to the Lord. Because of this lack, they are overwhelmed by maya and take repeated birth in the material world.

 

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha Sakti. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either way the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

 

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

 

SYNONYMS

 

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation; surya-amsa -- part and parcel of the sun; kirana -- a ray of sunshine; yaiche -- as; agni-jvala-caya -- molecular particle of fire; svabhavika -- naturally; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara -- three varieties; sakti -- energies; haya -- there are.

 

TRANSLATION

 

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna's marginal potency. There are two worlds -- the spiritual world and the material world -- and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire." Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.

 

You guys are not arguing with "my interpretation" you are arguing against direct unequivocal statements by the acaryas.