Why did Srila Prabhupada promote the fairytale?

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

We did not originate from tatastha consciousness

 

 

Jiva prabhu, your understanding of what I presented about tatastha consciousness has not been correctly understood by you. On many occasions in my writing I have made it clear that tatatstha is a state of consciousness of the marginal living entity, namely the marginal living entities DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness.

What I have said all along is that tatastha consciousness is actually the dreamless dreaming state of the nitya-baddha consciousness ACHIEVED after passing through the mahat-tattva. Therefore jiva tatastha is not the foundation or origin of whom the living entity really is. No living entity can originate from tatastha condition of individual consciousness, they can only enter that dreamless dreaming conscious condition temporarily.

Srila Prabhupada - 'He (the living entity) thinks that (impersonal Brahmajyoti) may be his origin , but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

And why is this so? Because the permeant imperishable condition of all living entities is their perpetually nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally liberated and always situate in Goloka or Vaikuntha, even if one is 'dreaming' as there nitya-baddha consciousness that can manifests as jiva bhutah (actively conditioned in the mahat-tattva) and can eventually manifest as jiva-tatastha (dormant or inactive consciousness) for a temorary time and then again falls back to being embodied within the mahat-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

.

Also it was Srila Prabhupada who said we never originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of individual consciousness. He made it very clear we did not originate from tatastha consciousness which is the impersonal condition of ones nitya baddha dreaming consciousness, which is a secondary conditional state of the marginal living entity activated when they want to attempt to be lord and forget Krishna and their own nitya-siddha eternal body.

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Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

.

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

.

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, <st1:City><st1:place>Atlanta</st1:place></st1:City>, March 2,

1975)

.

The tatastha condition of consciousness is simply the dream of the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness after they become fed up of actively dreaming within the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu and controlled by His wife Maya.

.

Srila Prabhupada - ' alt='b] '>Krishna</st1:place>’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada - " /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha condition of consciousness. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

Also the meaning of the Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

Actually what you are presenting are misconceptions and a collection juggled quotes that give an incorrect presentation of Srila Prabhupada teachings. What you are trying to present to others is not understanding the essence of his teachings nor the depth, in fact it appears to be polluted by other so called Vishnava sects that also could never understand that Srila Prabhupada made it very clear we all never originated from 'tatastha consciousness'.

Also it was Srila Prabhupada who said we never originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of individual consciousness. He made it very clear we did not originate from tatastha consciousness which is the impersonal condition of ones nitya baddha dreaming consciousness, which is a secondary conditional state of the marginal living entity activated when they want to attempt to be lord and forget Krishna and their own nitya-siddha eternal body.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, ffice:smarttags" />.” Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.29.2b</B>.

Srila Prabhupada - "But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada - " /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousnesses. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

The nitya baddha dreaming consciousness that enters the material dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu as self centred dreams can later proceed to the tatastha impersonal condition of a dreamless dream. This is certainly not a separate place, but rather a conditional state of individual consciousness manifesting in a cluster called the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Tatastha is simply a state of individual consciousness sometimes referred to as jiva tatastha or s’akti, or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti sometimes called jiva sparks or rays of living individual particles of light, which is really a cluster of marginal living entities manifesting as their dreaming dreamless nitya-baddha consciousness. Every marginal living entity has both a perpetual nitya-siddha body and the propensity to manifest a nitya baddha consciousness due to free will. Without free will everything would be all one consciousness

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies". (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles).

Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual sky of the Brahmajyoti there is no change of various kalpas or millenniums, and there are no creative activities in the Vaikuntha worlds. The influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The rays of the transcendental body of the Lord, the unlimited Brahmajyoti, are undeterred by the influence of material energy. Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.3 purport,

This goes way deeper than many can presently comprehend. There is a paradox in trying to understand this. You are right if you say the nitya-baddha consciousness does not come from Goloka because only the nitya-siddhas are in Goloka. So what is nitya-baddha consciousness? If it does not came from Goloka where does it come from? This is hard to understand and explain in English.

I think the best way to understand this is let’s compare the nitya-siddha body to a bright Sun and the nitya-baddha consciousness to darkness. In the presents of the sun there is no darkness, it simply does not exist. In the same way, in the presents or awareness of ones nitya-siddha body, there is no nitya-baddha consciousness, it simply does not exist. Also when there is darkness (nitya-baddha) it's not that there is no sun (nitya-siddha), it simply means we cannot see it.

Srila Prabhupada – “'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The darkness or the nitya-baddha consciousness is compared also to the tatastha condition of consciousness that is a characteristic born of darkness, such consciousness is tatastha s’akti of the jiva. In fact within that darkness also exists the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Now this place is a real manifestation in the spiritual Sky that takes up 25%, so it is not an illusion it is simply a temporary phenomenon

Srila Prabhupada – “.We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Month="11" Day="14" Year="1968">November 14, 1968</st1:date>,

In this way the jiva as there nitya-baddha secondary self originates from the darkness, from tatastha however, the full potential of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

It is very clear that we never originated from tatastha consciousness because we are already a resident of Goloka and have been there without beginning or end; presently we cannot see that because we are dreaming.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - ‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes. Our full spiritual identity does not originate from tatastha only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva and then the tatastha condition of inactive or dormant consciousness. We (our full constitutional nitya-siddha body) certainly do not originate from tatastha consciousness; no jiva soul (marginal living entity) originates from such an impersonal foundation that is not possible because perpetually we are eternal bodily servants of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

[Guruvani]

 

 

So if any of you people know Narayana Maharaja or knows someone who knows him, try and see if you can find out if he is basing his opinion on direct statements or indirect extrapolations.

Personally, I think Narayana Maharaja is quite accomplished and well-versed in proper Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I have never had a problem with his siddhanta.

 

What has always rubbed me the wrong way about him was some of his views and statements about Srila Prabhupada which might possibly be misconstrued or misrepresented.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja aslo said "I am not wholly one with Swami Maharaja" (our Srila Prabhupada)

 

I don't think that any disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur or their disciples are wholly one with Srila Prabhupada.

 

They are not acquainted with or involved in the adjusting process that Srila Prabhupada had to go through to present Krishna consciousness in a way that would be appropriate for western people coming from a so-called Judeo-Christian background.

 

All-in-all, I don't doubt Narayana Maharaja's ability to properly represent the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

In that way I have nothing but respect and regard for him.

 

He has said some rather controversial things for sure, but as an acharya in his own right I have gotten to the point of acknowledging his authority.

 

Many nice devotees and some dear friends of mine that I admire and look up to have taken-up with Narayana Maharaja.

 

Maybe they know something I don't know.

I am sure they do.

They are all much more advanced, sincere and dedicated than I am.

[shiva]

 

 

We did not originate from tatastha consciousness

 

 

Jiva prabhu, your understanding of what I presented about tatastha consciousness has not been correctly understood by you. On many occasions in my writing I have made it clear that tatatstha is a state of consciousness of the marginal living entity, namely the marginal living entities DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness.

What I have said all along is that tatastha consciousness is actually the dreamless dreaming state of the nitya-baddha consciousness ACHIEVED after passing through the mahat-tattva. Therefore jiva tatastha is not the foundation or origin of whom the living entity really is. No living entity can originate from tatastha condition of individual consciousness, they can only enter that dreamless dreaming conscious condition temporarily.

 

 

I do know what you have been saying, but you are wrong. Your conception of something called "tatastha consciousness" or that tatastha is another word for the brahmajyoti is a concoction. I don't know if you invented that or heard it from someone else, but it is wrong, you will not find such ideas in any of the writings of sastra or the acaryas. Gaudiya siddhanta is very clear and very explicit on what is tatastha sakti. For you to keep claiming that your concoction is the real truth even though you have been presented with many things written in sastra and from the acaryas which teach that tatastha sakti is the jiva, well, what gives? What proof have you shown? You have not shown and in fact cannot show any statement from any authorized source which makes the same claim as you about tatastha sakti. All your quotes are irrelevant, they are not claiming what you think they claim.

[Guruvani]

 

I do know what you have been saying, but you are wrong.

 

 

So, I guess this means that I am not the only whipping boy on this forum?

Watch-out shiva!

Now you have become shark bait.

 

It's good to have some company.

I have been the guy that the fairytale lads love to hate for a long time here.

 

Are you sure you are ready to become an object of scorn and ridicule for the lads in fairytale land?

[shiva]

 

So, I guess this means that I am not the only whipping boy on this forum?

Watch-out shiva!

Now you have become shark bait.

 

It's good to have some company.

I have been the guy that the fairytale lads love to hate for a long time here.

 

Are you sure you are ready to become an object of scorn and ridicule for the lads in fairytale land?

 

 

Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear, And he shows them pearly white. Just a jack knife has old MacHeath, babe, And he keeps it … ah … out of sight. Ya know when that shark bites, with his teeth, babe, Scarlet billows...start to spread. Fancy gloves, though, wears old MacHeath, babe, So there’s nevah, nevah a trace of red. Now on the sidewalk … uuh, huh … whoo … sunny mornin’ … uuh, huh, Lies a body just oozin' life … eeek! And someone’s sneakin' ‘round the corner, Could that someone be Mack the Knife?

[Guruvani]

 

Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear, And he shows them pearly white. Just a jack knife has old MacHeath, babe, And he keeps it … ah … out of sight. Ya know when that shark bites, with his teeth, babe, Scarlet billows...start to spread. Fancy gloves, though, wears old MacHeath, babe, So there’s nevah, nevah a trace of red. Now on the sidewalk … uuh, huh … whoo … sunny mornin’ … uuh, huh, Lies a body just oozin' life … eeek! And someone’s sneakin' ‘round the corner, Could that someone be Mack the Knife?

 

Ah.... yes.

Sadhu means "one who cuts".

So, I guess Mack the knife must be a sadhu?

[Sarva gattah]

 

I do know what you have been saying, but you are wrong. Your conception of something called "tatastha consciousness" or that tatastha is another word for the brahmajyoti is a concoction. I don't know if you invented that or heard it from someone else, but it is wrong, you will not find such ideas in any of the writings of sastra or the acaryas. Gaudiya siddhanta is very clear and very explicit on what is tatastha sakti. For you to keep claiming that your concoction is the real truth even though you have been presented with many things written in sastra and from the acaryas which teach that tatastha sakti is the jiva, well, what gives? What proof have you shown? You have not shown and in fact cannot show any statement from any authorized source which makes the same claim as you about tatastha sakti. All your quotes are irrelevant, they are not claiming what you think they claim.

 

Shiva, read the following carefully - you are not understanding what I have presented, your are not comprehending this subject and what I have clearly said, proving clearly that Srila Prabhupada said we do not originate from a tatastha state of our consciousness BECAUSE ALL marginal living entities or jivas have a perpetual bodily form that NEVER leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Try and understand this and forget about this nonsense idea we, the marginal living entity or jiva, originates from some nonsense Impersonal tatastha s'akti concept of their own marginal consciousness. Such Impersonalism has unfortunately polluted so many Vaishnave groups and their presentation or translation of the Acarayas and Shastra.

 

What does that mean and what is the trueth? It simply means that our own marginal identity (also known as jiva) as its dreaming secondary bodiless consciousness is really the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. This secondary consciousness of the jiva soul or marginal living entity is simply a manifestation of the marginal living entities or jiva souls dormant or inactive as nitya-baddha secondary dreaming dreamless consciousness achieved only after actively travelling rgrough the maha-tattva. Let me gradually explain as follows -

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls secondary (nitya-baddha)condition of being or inactive consciousness when they attempt to become inactive after experiencing frustration within the mahat-tattva. Attempting to obliterate their consciousness means they have no information or realization that they (every marginal living entity or jiva soul) has a perpetual body eternally established within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personal told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu, or can eventually merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, which is true but only after we have 'sub-consciously' come down from Goloka as our nitya-baddha dreaming conscious thoughts.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, ffice:smarttags" />February 18, 1977</B></I>

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Technically there is no origin to the jivas or living entities because they all have an eternal bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is there without beginning or end.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projection relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu".

<FONT size=4>The nitya-baddha consciousness is the jiva-tattva and can also be the jiva-tatastha and about 170 other jiva definations however, they are all the extended secondary consciousness of their nitya-siddha body when one chooses to use their free will and ignore <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</SPAN></st1:place><font color=" /><st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman">Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman">. <FONT color=black>

<FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman">

<FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>You are therefore correct that the jiva can come from tatastha however they all (nitya-baddha consciousneses) have to first travel through the the mahat-tattva first before reaching that dormant state of their own dreamless dream. <FONT color=black>

<FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>

<FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The nitya-baddha or secondary dreaming condition of the jiva-tattva are the same, such a sub-conscious projection of the marginal living entity while forgetful of their nitya-sidda genuin and eternal bodily form serving Krishna in Goloka, is devoid of form until they are either given form by Maha-Vishnu or teturn back home back to Godhead to their original perpetual svarupa or rasa bodily form in Goloka.<FONT color=black>

[suchandra]

This is how pratically all the great acaryas explain, how a living entity falls in this material world:

 

 

"Sometimes we are questioned that “How a living entity fallen in this material world?” Yes, that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: icchā-dvesa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. Icchā-dvesa. Actually, we are servants of God. That is our real position. But we sometimes become envious, that, “Why shall I become servant of God? This is slave mentality.” Sometimes we are accused, the Vaishnavas are, of slave mentality because they want to serve God. And the Māyāvādīs, they think that “We are so exalted that I am as good as God. I am God.” That is their position. But actually, nobody is God here. Everyone is servant. He’s simply falsely thinking that he’s God, he’s master, he’s this or that. You have got very nice example in the life of Mr. Nixon. He was thinking that he’s everything: “I am the President.” But now what is his position, you can understand.

 

So similarly everyone…, nobody is master. The master is Krishna. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmrita, ekale īśvara krishna āra saba bhritya. The master is there, that is Krishna, and everyone is servant.

Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches that jīvera svarūpa haya nitya krishna dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. We living entities, we are eternally servant of God. Krishna means God. One who attracts everyone, that is Krishna, and Krishna is God, accepted by everyone.

 

īśvarah paramah krishnah

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahah

anādir ādir govindah

sarva-kārana-kāranam

[bs. 5.1]

 

Krishnas tu bhagavān svayam. These are the Vedic evidences. So actually nobody can be master; everyone is servant. Either we are servant of God or we are servant of dog. That’s all. Nobody can be master. If anyone has no master, then he keeps a pet dog to become his servant. That is nature, we can see. One is servant of his wife, one is servant of his pet or government service or this service.

Nobody can claim that “I am the master.” That is not possible. That is also temporary. So actually this is the position of all living entities. Everyone is servant. But in the material sense, he is servant of māyā, servant of senses. Servant of māyā means servant of senses. And spiritual life means instead of becoming servant of māyā or servant of senses, we become the servant of Krishna or God.

That is the position. Servant we shall remain. We have to change the position. And if we become servant of God, then we become happy, and if we remain servant of dog or māyā, then we remain unhappy.

This is the position. We have to change the position. Kāmādīnāh kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās tesām mayi na karunā jātā na trapā nopaśāntih. One intelligent brāhmana, he’s offering, “My Lord, I have become servant of so many senses, but neither the senses are satisfied, neither I am satisfied. This is the result of my service.

Therefore now I have got my intelligence that I want to become Your servant.” This is intelligence. So I have experienced that I became a servant of my family, servant of my society, servant of my country, and so on, so on, but nobody, neither my so-called master was satisfied, neither I was satisfied. We see practical examples, there are many examples. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he dedicated his life for the service of the country. Nobody can doubt about his service, but what is the result? His master killed him. He worked for his country, he took country as his master, and he worked so hard, and his countrymen killed him. We should take lesson from this that you cannot satisfy in this material world by becoming servant of your family or community, society, nation. No. It is not possible. You can satisfy very easily Krishna by little service. By little service.

Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt.

 

So this is intelligence, how to become a servant of Krishna.

That is the perfection of life. That means mukti. Mukti does not mean you’ll get four hands and eight heads. No. Mukti means, as it is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, muktir hitvānyathā rūpah sva-rūpena vyavasthitih. That is mukti. Sva-rūpena, legally, constitutionally, I am servant of God, or Krishna."

 

 

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmrta, Madhya-līlā 20.100

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Washington, D.C., July 5, 1976

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, ffice:smarttags" />February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

After removing your speculative, rambling, concocted purports. This is all that you have.

None of these quotes say anything about having body of sandhini-shakti in lila pastimes with Krishna.

All it says is that the soul is spiritual soul eternally and before falling down into maya was situated constitutionally as a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti.

The living entities situated in the brahmajyoti are nitya-siddha.

But, because they have no service to Krishna in a loving mood they can fall down from that position if they get exposed to maya when they are injected into the Maha-tattva.

Your quotes do nothing to prove your point.

You have extrapolated meanings from the statements that are not there.

You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Shastra and the acharyas have made it clearn that no liberated devotee of Krishna can fall down or become covered by illusion.

[Sarva gattah]

Yes we are dreaming our material existance as well as our existance in the Impersonal Bramajyoti if we dare go there

 

Srila Prabhupada - "we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on".Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, Sunday, December 24, 1967

 

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-

maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion or ignorance

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna" Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: "Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance." This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he's in the dreamland" Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change.

 

All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual position IN Goloka and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

 

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy. Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

 

Srila Prabhupada "Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power.

 

Therefore one should break the illusion of this waking state by fixing one’s attention only on Me, its Witness. Know Me to be the transcendental Reality, the very Self (of the dreaming jiva), Brahman, the Consciousness which experiences and transcends the three states of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep.

 

When Krishna is forgotten, the jiva (as there nitya-0baddha secondary self) comes to imagine himself different from serving Krishna and, thus, starts turning endlessly on the wheel of birth and death.

 

He who fails to take advantage of his human body through which he can acquire Self-knowledge and devotion, can never hope to live in peace. One should, therefore, stop indulging in activities which appear to be conducive to freedom and happiness, but from which one reaps nothing but misery. Using discrimination and wisdom one should give up the sense-pleasure of this world and the next and develop devotion to Krishna. For only through intense concentration of hearing and chanting the glories of Krishna can the mind acquire the power to realise the original identity and svarupa of the jiva (nitya-siddha) and their pepertual rasa with the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Krishna) whom is the sole aim of all human endeavour.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “A spirit soul who falls down from the brahmajyoti to the kingdom of maya may have a chance of associating with a pure devotee, and then he may be elevated to the spiritual planets of vaikuntha or to goloka vrindaban. from the brahmajyoti there is no direct promotion to the spiritual planets, and it is clearly stated in the bhagavatam that such souls fall down: patanty adha". 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

 

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu’ Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation, however no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation. We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krishna, so Krishna is giving consciousness: “All right, you can forget Me in this way.”

Srila Prabhupada- 'That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

 

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

 

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

We are not fallen?

Then why does Srila Prabhupada say so in his books so many times?

 

Śrī Īśopaniṣad 8 purport,

 

 

The fallen condition of the living entities is due entirely to forgetfulness of their relationship with God.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.7.24 purport.

 

He descends out of His causeless mercy only to reclaim the fallen souls who are captivated by the illusory energy.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.10.22 purport,

 

Nitya-baddhas are eternally forgetful of their relation with the Lord as parts and parcels.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.10.22 purport.

 

The living entities are parts and parcels of the Lord. They are of two varieties, namely nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The nitya-muktas are eternally liberated souls, and they are eternally engaged in the reciprocation of transcendental loving service with the Lord in His eternal abode beyond the manifested mundane creations. But the nitya-baddha, or eternally conditioned souls, are entrusted to His external energy, māyā, for rectification of their rebellious attitude toward the Supreme Father. Nitya-baddhas are eternally forgetful of their relation with the Lord as parts and parcels.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.29

 

Although His pastimes are His only characteristic functions, by His causeless mercy He performs one activity for the fallen souls.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.21 purport,

 

All the Vedic literatures, therefore, are put into systematic order for the benefit of the fallen souls, and it is the duty of the fallen souls to take advantage of such literatures and be freed from the bondage of material existence.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 2.4 purport,

 

The Lord delivered the fallen souls in some places by meeting them directly, in other places by empowering a pure devotee, and in still other places by appearing before someone Himself.

 

 

There are hundreds of references of Srila Prabhupada to fallen conditioned souls.

 

So, this fraud comment that he supposedly made it Japan that cannot be verified cannot stand up against the dozens and dozens of documented statements of Srila Prabhupada that in fact the jivas are fallen souls.

[HerServant]

PAHMO.

 

I think this thread is rather interesting and it relates to my personal experience and exposure to ISKCON and Krsna Consciousness.

 

As many on the forum know, I am not an initiated devotee. I did not take initiation because of "the fairytale".

 

I had first exposure to ISKCON and the KC movement in the mid 70s. I was not too attracted to the movement at that time because the presentation (in my case) was convoluted by neophyte devotees, either having lack of understanding or intelligence to present the Spiritual science of BG and SB, or because they had personal problems/issues (e.g. drugs, scams, etc.) and could not understand spiritual sciences.

 

When first exposed, I was a teenager and studying the catholic Mystics and many devotees distributing literature could not even answer the most basic philosophical questions. Therefore, I saw no benefit in following them.

 

20 years later I became very interested in eastern thought and recalled the HKs, particularly them being in possession of a storehouse of Sacred Literature.

 

I read and studied BG and SB along with Srila Prabhupada's purports. I visited ISKCON temples all over the US.

 

What I found was a "crumbled and shattered" fairytale.

 

Please let me explain further. Many devotees I met were bitter, confrontational, manipulative, and depressed. After many years of "research" I concluded that "Perfectionism" is the BIG problem with the ISKCON brand of Spirituality.

 

The ISKCON philosophy stresses "top most devotee" ideology but hardly anyone and perhaps no one could "live up to the standard" .

 

I believe because of this fact , the "good as Jesus" and "Jesus as pure devotee" became a philosophical obsession within ISKCON. Attacking Jesus' divinity became an agenda of the ISKCON philosophical school because "top most devotees that are perfectly situated in Krsna Consciousness" have no need for "The Savior".

 

Only fallen sinners need a savior.

 

Therefore, followers of "the fairytale" when experiencing "fall down" after "fall down" cannot bear the failure. Without a Savior, they cannot accept their inadequacies and limitations.

 

That is why I have said then and now that only Jesus can save the movement. There is no other way .. in my opinion. There needs to be a flawless perfect soul, a lila that we meditate on that helps us navigate us through our transgressions .. because we will likely make sins until the day we die.

 

So I can read SB and BG through the "eyes of Christ". My faith is such that someday, His Divine Life will illumine me to such a great degree that the darkness of sin will be no more. That the endless reservoir of His Mercy will eventually open my stone heart to such a degree that I will finally understand His endless love. And when this happens, it is His perfect devotedness that will fill me .. His topmost-ness devotion that will rule me .. His love of the Father will saturate me ..

 

Call Him what you will .. I know Him as the Savior of this world and of the entire cosmic manifestation.

 

Her servant and yours.

[Guruvani]

 

That is why I have said then and now that only Jesus can save the movement. There is no other way .. in my opinion.

 

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

[Vigraha]

Guruvani you are trying to taste the honey by licking the outside part of the jar

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj used this analogy: the honey is in a bottle, the bottle is sealed, and the bee is trying to lick the honey through the glass. Foolish people may think the bee is licking the honey. Similarly, the intellect cannot approach atma, spirit. It may think that it is capable, but it is not possible. The barrier is there, like a glass. Intellectual achievement is not real achievement of higher knowledge of the higher plane.

 

Hare Krishna

 

[suchandra]

 

Guruvani you are trying to taste the honey by licking the outside part of the jar

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj used this analogy: the honey is in a bottle, the bottle is sealed, and the bee is trying to lick the honey through the glass. Foolish people may think the bee is licking the honey. Similarly, the intellect cannot approach atma, spirit. It may think that it is capable, but it is not possible. The barrier is there, like a glass. Intellectual achievement is not real achievement of higher knowledge of the higher plane.

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

Yes, Guruvani, please open the honey jar and start taste the honey of Krishna consciousness.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes, Guruvani, please open the honey jar and start taste the honey of Krishna consciousness.

But, I only use raw, unfiltered, uncooked honey.

 

I don't accept the ISKCON MYTH brand of filtered, cooked and watered down honey.

In it's pure form honey is like a medicine.

 

Once it gets processed it becomes about the same as white sugar which is toxic to the system.

 

ISKCON doesn't distribute raw honey.

I have found some foreign substances in their processed honey.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani you are trying to taste the honey by licking the outside part of the jar

 

 

 

And you are trying to taste the honey by mixing it with motor oil.

They look about the same, but there is a big difference.

[Guruvani]

One of the issues that comes with the belief in the myth is that the devotee does not understand or aspire to raganuga bhakti.

 

As long as you think you already have a rasa with Krishna that you have just forgotten about, then you will not bother to adopt raganuga bhakti and seek out a ragatmika bhakta in Vrindavan to always remember, think about and follow.

 

The fall-from-goloka myth keeps one shackled to sadhana-bhakti with the expectation that sadhana-bhakti will award all perfection.

 

It won't.

 

Why? Because if one goes through his whole life thinking that someday through sadhana-bhakti his spiritual body will manifest automatically without adopting raganuga-bhakti, then he will never attain Vrindavan.

 

You cannot attain Vrindavan through sadhana.

 

The fall-from-goloka myth in effect cancels the function and purpose of raganuga. It offers pie-in-the-sky perfection on the basis vaidhi-sadhana.

Without raganuga sadhana one will never attain Vrindavan.

 

So, that is the harm that the fall-from-goloka myth causes.

 

It shackles a whole class of devotees into vaidhi-bhakti on the belief that they can attain Vrindavan without practicing raganuga-sadhana.

 

The fall-from-goloka myth conception doesn't need raganuga-sadhana.

In the myth you already have it in stock somewhere, so all you have to do is keep performing vaidhi-sadhana and then magically, miraculously and mysteriously you will have a flash of light and then the next thing you know you are back on Goloka where you started from.

 

As such, the fall-from-goloka proponents ignore raganuga-sadhana and just go about their merry-little-way of vaidhi-sadhana and belief in the fairytale.

[stonehearted]

 

You cannot attain Vrindavan through sadhana.

It might be too easy for someone to attack this assertion because raganuga-bhakti is also a sadhana, and it is discussed in the sadhana-bhakti section of Bhaktirasamrita-sinhdu. Raganuga sadhana gives Braja-bhava, and that is the only means to attain Braja. This is something ISKCON devotees need to discuss thoroughly and carefully. Among the few who actually read The Nectar of Devotion, I've seen few of those go beyond Part 1.

[Guruvani]

 

It might be too easy for someone to attack this assertion because raganuga-bhakti is also a sadhana, and it is discussed in the sadhana-bhakti section of Bhaktirasamrita-sinhdu. Raganuga sadhana gives Braja-bhava, and that is the only means to attain Braja. This is something ISKCON devotees need to discuss thoroughly and carefully. Among the few who actually read The Nectar of Devotion, I've seen few of those go beyond Part 1.

I agree.

I did refer to raganuga as a sadhana as well.

The first part of my post did not explicitly refer to it as a sadhana.

In the latter part I did refer to it as a sadhana.

 

So, I just wanted to make it clear that I was refering to raganuga as a sadhana, though it is a higher form or sadhana than vaidhi bhakti.

 

Both are bhakti.

But, raganuga is the advanced stage of sadhana.

 

I am not there yet for sure.

 

But, I do understand it's necessity in the pursuit of siddha-deha.

 

I am not even up to vaidhi-sadhana.

Maybe someday I will get there.

I don't know when.

[Guruvani]

Raganuga-sadhana is a sadhana, but the term raganuga indicates that some push toward raga is coming up.

So, raganuga-sadhana is the dawn of raga or a spontaneous attraction and in that sense is more than sadhana.

It is the preliminary stage of bhava.

When raganuga-sadhana awakens the loving sentiments, it is really much more than sadhana or practice.

[Vigraha]

You are already liberated; you just have to wake up from the material dream

Srila Prabhupada - ‘You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The marginal living entity that manifests ‘outside Goloka as their dreaming nitya-baddha inferior consciousness’ is known as tatastha. Tatastha does not refer to the eternal bodily ‘svarupa’ constitution of the living entity because that nitya-siddha condition is eternal and can never leave Goloka, only ones secondary thoughts or dreams can leave Goloka and they are called nitya-baddha or tatastha-s’akti

Srila Prabhupada – ‘In the present status of our life we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position’ Introduction to Bhagavad Gita as it is

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only outside the personal perpetual pastimes of Krishna, Vishnu etc in the imperishable Goloka and Vaikuntha's can the following description be correct. This is shown above as the dormant border line condition of the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness that can enter a dormant state of individual consciousness in between the dark perishable cloud that is the creation of Maha-Vishnu, and the permanant devotionally active Vaikuntha's that is called tatastha – ‘The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land’.

There are two aspects of Krishna’s wonderful creation, one imperishable without time and decay (Goloka and Vaikuntha established perpetually in the Spiritual Sky or the Personal feature of the Brahmajyoti), while the other is perishable and temporary (the mahat-tattva and Impersonal portion of the Spiritual sky call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti).

Therefore it can be said that the marginal living also entity has two characteristics to its existence, the first and foremost is their perpetual nitya-siddha bodily identity established within eternal time in Goloka, the second is their nitya-baddha consciousness that can only exist outside Goloka.

When it is said that 'tatastha-sakti' is the marginal potency of Sri Bhagavan, this is referring to the marginal living entities as there nitya-baddha secondary consciousness because the tatastha condition of the marginal living entity can that only manifest outside the eternal abode of Goloka and Vaikuntha..

Because the nitya-baddha consciousness is also referred to the jiva-sakti outside the realm of Goloka, this extended, separated or secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha devotee is included neither within the svarupa-sakti nor within maya-sakti, it is only known as tatastha-sakti, the marginal potency of the living entity in their secondary nitya baddha consciousness. It is crucial to also understand that the nitya siddha higher bodily consciousness is also the marginal potency however, that is 'internal marginal potency that is perpetually existent as a endless bodily form. In this way the full bodily identity of the living entity is forever existing in their full bodily devotional constitutions in Goloka eternally, while the nitya baddha secondary conscious condition of the marginal living entity can be activated to only exist outside Goloka as the ndreaming nitya-baddha's jiva-tatastha condition.

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

[Guruvani]

Vigraha, this topic is not for you to post your fairytale.

It is a topic to discuss why Srila Prabhupada promoted the fairytale.

 

You already have a number of topics where you can promote your fairytale.

 

This topic is not a promotion for the fairytale.

 

It is a discussion about why Srila Prabhupada promoted a fairytale about the jiva as fallen from serving Krishna in Goloka.

 

Go promote your fairytale in your own topic.

 

This topic is is not the place to promote your fairytale.

[suchandra]

 

It is a discussion about why Srila Prabhupada promoted a fairytale about the jiva as fallen from serving Krishna in Goloka.

 

 

This topic might be also somehow avoided by the great acaryas or turned into a "fairytale" because the karmis are rascals of that kind as they just say, look, you have two eyes in your head, use them. There're billions of eternal souls in the material world, so is this a good propaganda for the spiritual world? So better keep silent about how we came into the material world. Talk about how to become free from maya.

 

Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?

 

Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!

 

Devotee’s: Jaya! Haribol!

 

Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever for my books and you will utilise.

 

[interview, Berkley, 1975]