Is this the correct Understanding of the nitya-siddha body and nitya-baddha conscious

[gauragopala dasa]

Is this the correct Understanding of the nitya-siddha body and nitya-baddha consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Month="11" Day="14" Year="1968">November 14, 1968</st1:date>,

So what does Srila Prabhupada mean here? Obviously we are presently eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) outside of the personal active devotional pastimes of Vaikuntha and Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA SELF) because we are experiencing existence within the maha-tattva or the tatastha as our dreaming nitya-baddha secondary conscious self. This eternally conditioned state (nitya-baddha) can never enter the active pastimes in the Vaikuntha’s or Goloka just as darkness can never enter the light, in fact there is no such phenomenon.

In this way the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness is dissolved as one becomes more Krishna Conscious, just as the darkness dissipates as the sun gradually rises. As the the 'eternally conditioned-nitya-baddha consciousness' becomes free from the mahat-tattva's ethereal and biological containers' due to the gradual re-establishment of their original Krishna Consciousness, the 'eternally liberated nitya-siddha' becomes gradually realized. This is what Srila Prabhupada means when he says “We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?… You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated”

Could this means as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?

Yes - Through our Krishna Conscious endeavour, even while so called 'eternally conditioned' (nitya-baddha consciousness), we all can re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha that is without beginning or end within the devotional personal Goloka and Vaikuntha realm beyond mundane time and space that is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (tatastha, Brahma-sayuyja etc). In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[theist]

 

Is this the correct Understanding of the nitya-siddha body and nitya-baddha consciousness?

 

That is how I understand it. But that is no surprise because I choose to take such definitions from Srila Prabhupada's teachings on the subject over others.

[Guruvani]

If we accept the definition you guys are trying to promote then somebody needs to delete the terms "nitya-siddha" and "nitya-baddha" from the Bhagavatam because neither one means anything.

 

Why don't we just erase the terms from the Gaudiya shastra?

 

Even Srila Prabhupada can't rewrite the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Anyone that says he did is just a rascal and a fool and nobody can do anything to make them understand the shastra.

[shiva]

What Prabhupada meant is that the inherent nature of the jiva is that of servant of the Lord. So in that sense when we are in the conditioned state we are not really eternally conditioned even though we are called that because eternal means without end, and there is an end to conditioned life. What nitya baddha means is that time begins for the jiva when he enters the material world, and until he leaves the material world there was never a time that he wasn't conditioned. So therefore he is called eternally conditioned. But since all jivas will become liberated therefore in the more literal sense of the word eternal the jiva is not eternally conditioned because he will become liberated. And likewise since the nature of the jiva as a sakti of the lord is that of servant of the lord (the nature of sakti is that sakti has no ability to do anything independentely of the lord), therefore the real nature of the jiva is eternally liberated because that state will go on forever and it is his inherent nature.

 

Bhaktivinoda explains the relationship between god and sakti

 

 

From Jaiva Dharma

 

Advaita: Bhagavan Visnu is the embodiment of supreme consciousness, and He is the one supreme controller of all. Everything that exists is His potency. Potency is not an independent object, but rather the functional power inherent within an object. To say that sakti (potency) is the root of everything is thoroughly opposed to metaphysical truth. Sakti cannot exist independent of the object from which it originates. We must first accept the existence of an object that possesses full spiritual consciousness, otherwise accepting sakti by itself is like dreaming of a flower in the sky.

 

The commentary on Vedanta states, sakti-saktimator abhedah: "There is no difference between the potency and the possessor of potency." This means that sakti is not a separate object. The Supreme Person who is the master of all potencies is the one truly abiding substance. Sakti is the quality, or inherent function, that is subordinate to His will. You have said that sakti is the embodiment of consciousness, that it possesses will, and that it is beyond the influence of the three qualities of material nature. This is correct, but only insofar as sakti operates fully under the support of a pure conscious entity, and is thus considered identical with that powerful entity. Desire and consciousness depend on the Supreme Being. Desire cannot exist in sakti; rather, sakti acts in accordance with the desire of the Supreme Being. You have the power to move, and when you desire to move, that power will act. To say "the power is moving" is merely a figure of speech; it actually means that the person who possesses that power is moving.

 

Jiva Goswami writes in Paramatma Sandarbha

 

 

na rte tvat kriyate kincanare ity adav antaryami- caitanya-sambandhena bhavatity aggi-karac ca cuddhad eva kartrtvam pravartate.

 

na - not; rte - without; tvat - you; kriyate - is done; kicana - anything; are - Oh; iti - thus; adav - beginning; antaryami - of the Supersoul; caitanya-sambandhena - with awareness; bhavati - is; iti - thus; aggi-karac - from accepting; ca - and; cuddhat - from purity; eva - certainly; kartrtvam - the state of being the doer; pravartate - does.

 

 

In the scriptures it is said:

 

"O Lord, without Your help no one has the power to do anything."

 

In this way the pure soul understands the position of the Supersoul, the the Supersoul is, ultimately, the real doer of activities

 

Here we see explained that the jiva as a sakti of the lord is inherently servant of God. Even if we do not want to serve God still we have no independence because our nature is that of dependence on the lord. We cannot do anything unless the lord allows.

 

Purport Bhagavad Gita 11.43

 

 

Only Krsna is God, and everyone is His servant. Everyone is complying with His order. There is no one who can deny His order. Everyone is acting according to His direction, being under His superintendence. As stated in the Brahma-samhita, He is the cause of all causes.

[Guruvani]

 

What Prabhupada meant is that the inherent nature of the jiva is that of servant of the Lord. So in that sense when we are in the conditioned state we are not really eternally conditioned even though we are called that because eternal means without end, and there is an end to conditioned life. What nitya baddha means is that time begins for the jiva when he enters the material world, and until he leaves the material world there was never a time that he wasn't conditioned. So therefore he is called eternally conditioned. But since all jivas will become liberated therefore in the more literal sense of the word eternal the jiva is not eternally conditioned because he will become liberated. And likewise since the nature of the jiva as a sakti of the lord is that of servant of the lord (the nature of sakti is that sakti has no ability to do anything independentely of the lord), therefore the real nature of the jiva is eternally liberated because that state will go on forever and it is his inherent nature.

 

 

Wow, somebody finally got it right.

[theist]

Yes shiva offered a nice explanation of what Srila Prabhupada already said. Somebody, in this case Srila Prabhupada, had already got it right but Shiva explained it in a way that got it home to you.

 

I find it often the case that repraising something helps me understand something that is not immediately clear. I think that is the case with everyone.

[Guruvani]

 

Yes shiva offered a nice explanation of what Srila Prabhupada already said. Somebody, in this case Srila Prabhupada, had already got it right

 

I would never argue that.

But, Srila Prabhupada has also offered more simplisitic concepts akin to myth and fairytale. That is called teaching by paroksha or allegory.

 

Srila Prabhupada does give the proper technical explanations in his books if you have the eyes to see it.

 

But, it is interlaced with the paroksha allegorical concepts for readers of a lower capacity to understand.

 

Srila Prabhupada had the task of trying to make his books relevant to both the beginner and the advanced students.

 

In the process it can get confusing If we don't understand his purpose and necessity.

 

It took me a long time to sort it out in my own mind, but I managed to get through it without losing faith in Srila Prabhupada despite his apparent diversion from the shastra and Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I see his purpose and his necessity.

It all makes perfect sense to me.

 

It was a task no Gaudiya preacher ever really faced until Srila Prabhupada's launched his international mission.

His efforts were marvelous.

[theist]

 

I would never argue that.

But, Srila Prabhupada has also offered more simplisitic concepts akin to myth and fairytale. That is called teaching by paroksha or allegory.

 

Srila Prabhupada does give the proper technical explanations in his books if you have the eyes to see it.

 

But, it is interlaced with the paroksha allegorical concepts for readers of a lower capacity to understand.

 

Srila Prabhupada had the task of trying to make his books relevant to both the beginner and the advanced students.

 

In the process it can get confusing If we don't understand his purpose and necessity.

 

It took me a long time to sort it out in my own mind, but I managed to get through it without losing faith in Srila Prabhupada despite his apparent diversion from the shastra and Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I see his purpose and his necessity.

It all makes perfect sense to me.

 

It was a task no Gaudiya preacher ever really faced until Srila Prabhupada's launched his international mission.

His efforts were marvelous.

 

Much danger in this approach also. While I basically agree with the concept it is sometimes striking how differently we see where this was applied. I believe it best to not ry so hard to figure it out but to sometimes file things in the "later to understood " file and then wait for the explanation to descend, which it may or may not depending on Krsna. Concerning the fall/origins topic which has so consumed this board lately Srila Preabhupada advised not too spend time in debate over it. So I choose to leave it in it's folder having fasith the correft ansewer will someday be known to me in the proper time.

 

If we try to force things then we will find one mans fairtytale is another man's historical event and this unresolveable battle will rage on endlessly with no conclusion.

 

I would not find it odd that Srila Preabhupada was given a deeper view into the subject then his predecessors to be honest.

[Guruvani]

 

 

I would not find it odd that Srila Preabhupada was given a deeper view into the subject then his predecessors to be honest.

 

I would have to take issue with that proposal.

Considering the condition of the degraded civilizations that Srila Prabhupada was trying to preach to, I would certainly say that if anything he gave a more simplified, remedial and simplistic version of the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

 

I think Srila Bhaktivinode took it too the highest level possible.

Nothing after Bhaktivinoda will ever go deeper or higher.

 

Srila Prabhupada was a like a teacher of remedial siddhanta for the blunted and stunted intellects of the degraded western people.

 

Meanwhile, there are still very high class and learned Vaishnava families in India that will eventually produce the next Prabhupada.

 

The next Prabhupada will be able to neglect the elementary fairytale approach now that the Gaudiya culture has taken root in the west and is producing a higher class of people never known to the western world.

 

The next Prabhupada will not compromise.

That is my expectation.

[theist]

 

I think Srila Bhaktivinode took it too the highest level possible.

Nothing after Bhaktivinoda will ever go deeper or higher.

 

Bhaktivinode told us to question even the old authors of our religious books. So I don't feel everone forward must move in lock step to the previous authors of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. And that includes Bhativinode Thakur himself.

 

Now it is clear to me that my place is at the most basic level of God consciousness where there really is no disagreement on what I must do. The more rarified questions and answers lie somewhere in my distant future so I needn't break my brain worrying over them now.

 

First I want to reclaim realization of my own immortality and become free from this haunting illusion of death.

 

And on the next Prabhupada I might be inclined to expect the unexpected from Krsna. That soul may have taken birth in Harlem or Moscow just last night. Prabhupada himself seems to have been quite a surprise to his own Godbrothers.

 

I don't look for birth qualifications as any indication of where the next Krsna-empowered, self-effulgent representive of the Lord may arise from, although it is also not a disqualification to take an exalted birth either. Krsna will empower whom He will.

 

Maybe he will empower you Guruvani and send you back in your next birth as such a soul. Or He may empower you tonight. Who knows. I am not being sarcastic here. I believe in miraculous transformations and expect to see Prabhupada's disciples and all followers of Lord Caitanya experience such transformations.

 

Heck man I even expect miracles in my own life or why else should I hang around. I have proven 37 years ago that I am below the vaidhi bhakti level so what hope do I have? I have faith in Krsna kripa. 37 years or 37 lifetimes or more is nothing for the miracle I am praying for.

 

Good seeds have been planted in the west. The soil and climate may be different here and those seeds will not take on the exact same look as if they were planted in India but then that is the beauty of God consciousness. It is adaptable to every situation and will produce sustaining fruit wherever it is grown.

[Guruvani]

 

Bhaktivinode told us to question even the old authors of our religious books. So I don't feel everone forward must move in lock step to the previous authors of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. And that includes Bhativinode Thakur himself.

You got me runnin skeered now!

Anyone who thinks that Bhaktivinoda is an "old author" as if he is some ancient rishi from Vedic times and that we should question "question" him is on a different frequency than me.

 

Bhaktivinoda is a modern author who actually inaugurated the movement of Mahaprabhu for the western world and English speaking peoples.

 

I think you are taking way too much liberty with the words of Bhaktivinoda to even diminish his position and his contribution to modern Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

You lost me here brother.

 

I'll have to leave you alone in your own closet when it comes to saying Bhaktivinoda is an "old" author.

 

Not me.

Bhaktivinoda is the pinnacle and the summit of Gaudiya theism.

He is the Mount Everest of Gauidya thought.

Nothing will ever surpass him.

My humble opinion.

[sanatan]

A mind game:

In the context of this discussion, the term eternal or the state of eternity can relate to:

A. Non-relativistic consciousness or a conceptual reference to such a state.

B. An inconceivably long relativistic period which had a beginning at some point, as in "we've been in the material world for such a long time that it might as well be eternal".

C. A relativistic period which will have a beginning at some point, and will be perceived as continually-passing yet unending time, as in after the Christian Last Judgment.

So, if in the nitya-siddha or liberated state time does not exist, the term eternal and the state of eternity can't logically exist there either, because the perception necessary to formulate such a term or concept can’t exist in a non-relativistic reality.

The terms "eternally conditioned" or “eternally liberated” can only have meaning within the nitya-baddha or conditioned and time-perceiving state.

Most of Webster’s definitions for eternal and eternity characterize these within the framework of time; one definition equates eternal with timeless, but nothing there succinctly relates these to consciousness.

[theist]

 

You got me runnin skeered now!

Anyone who thinks that Bhaktivinoda is an "old author" as if he is some ancient rishi from Vedic times and that we should question "question" him is on a different frequency than me.

 

Bhaktivinoda is a modern author who actually inaugurated the movement of Mahaprabhu for the western world and English speaking peoples.

 

I think you are taking way too much liberty with the words of Bhaktivinoda to even diminish his position and his contribution to modern Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

You lost me here brother.

 

I'll have to leave you alone in your own closet when it comes to saying Bhaktivinoda is an "old" author.

 

Not me.

Bhaktivinoda is the pinnacle and the summit of Gaudiya theism.

He is the Mount Everest of Gauidya thought.

Nothing will ever surpass him.

My humble opinion.

 

I think you miss the point of what Bhaktivinode said and meant. It doesn't mean speculate on what is meant in the writing of previous authors it means to question for yourself and to come to your own realizations, That is realizations not speculations. Blind quoters, blind believers and fanatical flag wavers be damned.

[gauragopala dasa]

 

What Prabhupada meant is that the inherent nature of the jiva is that of servant of the Lord. So in that sense when we are in the conditioned state we are not really eternally conditioned even though we are called that because eternal means without end, and there is an end to conditioned life. What nitya baddha means is that time begins for the jiva when he enters the material world, and until he leaves the material world there was never a time that he wasn't conditioned. So therefore he is called eternally conditioned. But since all jivas will become liberated therefore in the more literal sense of the word eternal the jiva is not eternally conditioned because he will become liberated. And likewise since the nature of the jiva as a sakti of the lord is that of servant of the lord (the nature of sakti is that sakti has no ability to do anything independentely of the lord), therefore the real nature of the jiva is eternally liberated because that state will go on forever and it is his inherent nature.

 

Bhaktivinoda explains the relationship between god and sakti

 

 

 

Jiva Goswami writes in Paramatma Sandarbha

 

 

 

Here we see explained that the jiva as a sakti of the lord is inherently servant of God. Even if we do not want to serve God still we have no independence because our nature is that of dependence on the lord. We cannot do anything unless the lord allows.

 

Purport Bhagavad Gita 11.43

 

All your quotes have not answered the original topic. Are all living entities eternally nitya-siddha, even while some are presently acting and dreaming as nitya-baddha while forgetful of the perpetual nitya-siddha body in Goloka?

 

Also when we mention there are nitya-siddha’s amongst us, have such great devotee's come to the material world as nitya-siddha to act out a Krishna Conscious role under Krishna's directions?

 

I remember once Srila Prabhupada said that Naradha Muni (nitya-siddha) comes to the material world and disguises himself with different bodily forms to preach the glories of Krishna. Prabhupada even said he might come disguised to devotees distributing books.

 

 

My question is it appears that both nitya-baddha's and nitya siddha's come to the material world. Some leave Vaikuntha as their nitya-baddha non Krishna conscious dreaming state while forgetful of their nitya-siddha body, and are therefore placed under the influence of Maha-Maha, while the nitya-siddha devotee's come on a mission from Krishna in an ethereal and biological bodily costume (Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva material creation) under the direct control of Yoga Maya (Krishna’s internal potency)?

 

 

Is this the correct uinderstanding?

[Guruvani]

 

All your quotes have not answered the original topic. Are all living entities eternally nitya-siddha, even while some are presently acting and dreaming as nitya-baddha while forgetful of the perpetual nitya-siddha body in Goloka?

 

Also when we mention there are nitya-siddha’s amongst us, have such great devotee's come to the material world as nitya-siddha to act out a Krishna Conscious role under Krishna's directions?

 

I remember once Srila Prabhupada said that Naradha Muni (nitya-siddha) comes to the material world and disguises himself with different bodily forms to preach the glories of Krishna. Prabhupada even said he might come disguised to devotees distributing books.

 

 

My question is it appears that both nitya-baddha's and nitya siddha's come to the material world. Some leave Vaikuntha as their nitya-baddha non Krishna conscious dreaming state while forgetful of their nitya-siddha body, and are therefore placed under the influence of Maha-Maha, while the nitya-siddha devotee's come on a mission from Krishna in an ethereal and biological bodily costume (Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva material creation) under the direct control of Yoga Maya (Krishna’s internal potency)?

 

 

Is this the correct uinderstanding?

I think that is about right.

 

Where I disagree with you is on the idea that all the conditioned souls already have a spiritual body in Goloka that they have forgotten about.

 

That idea is based on the premise that nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna in Goloka somehow come under the influence of maya and forget their spiritual body and take on material bodies in the material world.

 

I totally and absolutely disagree with that.

 

We have been told over and over and over again so many times in the books of shastra that the fallen souls are spirit sparks disintegrated from the effulgence of Krishna (Sankarsan).

 

The claim that the nitya-baddha jivas have spiritual bodies in Goloka that they are presently unaware of is based upon the falldown of the liberated devotees of Krishna.

 

That concept totally contradicts everything shastra says about the infallibility of the eternal liberated devotees of Krishna.

 

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Only the finite jivas manifested at the marginal plane of the Viraja with exposure to Maya-shakti can become ensnared by maya.

 

Even the spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti in Vaikuntha have a shanta-rasa devotion to Krishna and they are infallible.

 

The spirit sparks coming out in the marginal plane are vulnerable because they have not realized their relationship with Krishna with even the basic shanta-rasa.

 

Many liberated souls in Vaikuntha prefer the shanta-rasa with Krishna and simply exist within the effuglent sky of Vaikuntha in the oneness of the brahmajyoti.

Because they have this shanta-rasa with Krishna they are also perfect and they cannot falldown, but they can rise up to higher rasa with Krishna.

 

The jivas manifested in the Viraja have not realized even a proper shanta-rasa with Krishna and as such they fall down into Maya due to lack of knowledge of their relationship with Krishna.

 

Impersonal liberation on the basis of shanta-rasa is perfection.

Impersonal liberation on the basis of jnana is not perfection and they will eventually falldown.

The impersonal shanta-rasa can only be sustained on the basis of devotion to Krishna in shanta-rasa.

It cannot be sustained on jnana.

There must be some bhakti and realization of Krishna to sustain and eternal position in impersonal shanta-rasa.

 

That is my idea that I have developed from what I think I have learned from the books.