Who are we to decide which God is Supreme ?

[gokulkr]

Debate has been going on between vishnu-shiva supremacy from daya of dawn. But bad news for some sect (particularly to saivatees) is that Great Acharyas like Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Vallabhacharya, Nimbarkacharya, Vedanta Desika etc.. have proved clearly that "Lord Narayana is Supreme Brahman" and they have defeated shaiva-scholars , saiva-philosophies.

So no use in debating on the matter which has already been solved & proved.

 

Moreover, we are all petty people. We have to accept the sayings of acharyas. Acharyas say "Lord Narayana" is Supreme.

 

Moreover Puranas are just symbolisation. Each purana hails each diff God is supreme. So debating on basis of puranas is foolish & mindless. Moreover, Saivatees dont tend to come out of "shiva purana". Wat else can they do ? Because apart from shiva-purana they dont have anything in their hands.

 

All the 4 great philosophies - Suddhadvaita, Vishistadvaita, Dvaitadvaitha, Dvaitha point out only "Lord Narayana" as Supreme. So saying that these 4 philosophies are meaningless by shaivatees is foolishness, because all these acharyas have already defeated shaivas and proved "Lord Vishnu" is supreme.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[Avinash]

You have written that great acharyas have proved Narayana as supreme.

But there are also great acharyas who say that Shiva is supreme. It is a different matter that you will not consider them as great.

[gokulkr]

Acharyas who were saying "Siva is supreme" could not able to defeat Vaishnava-acharyas. Whereas, Vaishnava-acharyas easily debated & defeated Shiva-acharyas. Till now, no shiva-acharya has able to defeat any vaishnava-acharya. Ex :- Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Vedanta Desika has defeated many shaiva-acharyas.

 

Remember, Truth cannot be defeated. If "Shiva is supreme", then no vaishnavacharyas could not have defeated "Shaivas". If Saivam is supreme then why not till today no shaiva-acharyas could not able to defeat any acharya following srivaishnavam or dwaitham.

 

So Answer is clear, "Narayana is Supreme".

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[Avinash]

Can you name a Shaiva acharya and a Vaishnava acharya who debated and in which the Vaishnava acharya won? Any example?

[gokulkr]

Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Vedanta Desika has defeated many shaiva-acharyas.

[Avinash]

You have mentioned three Vaishnava acharyas - Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Vedanta Desika.

Give the name of any one Shaiva acharya with whom any of these three Vaishnava acharyas debated and in which that Shaiva acharya was defeated.

[gokulkr]

Achyutapreksha Tîrtha , Trivikrama Pandita, and Shyâma Shâstri , SriSwamy Shastri , Appaya Dikshita, Pakshadhara Mishra, Madhusuudana Sarasvati, and Basava Bhatta, Tatacharya, Sri Krishna Sharma , Lingaraja are the shaiva-acharya or shaiva-scholars defeated by Acharyas like Sri Vadiraja, Sri Vyasaraja and other dwaitha-gurus.

Also Ramanujacharya & Vedantha Desika also defeated many shaiva-scholars.

[Avinash]

Was there a debate between the shaiva acharyas and the vaishnava acharyas that you have mentioned?

What did the shaiva acharyas do after being defeated? Did they accept what vaishnava acharayas were saying? And did they become vaishnavas?

[shvu]

 

Achyutapreksha Tîrtha , Trivikrama Pandita, and Shyâma Shâstri , SriSwamy Shastri , Appaya Dikshita, Pakshadhara Mishra, Madhusuudana Sarasvati, and Basava Bhatta, Tatacharya, Sri Krishna Sharma , Lingaraja are the shaiva-acharya or shaiva-scholars defeated by Acharyas like Sri Vadiraja, Sri Vyasaraja and other dwaitha-gurus.

Also Ramanujacharya & Vedantha Desika also defeated many shaiva-scholars.

 

The above were not Shaiva scholars unless you hold on to some kind of binary logic where anyone who is not a Vaishnava must be a Shaiva.

 

They were Advaitins; some of them are only known through Vaishnava sources while others such as Appayya and MS Saraswati are prominent Advaitins. It is a bogus cook up on the part of some unscrupulous authors that either of these two were defeated by anyone in a formal debate. They were famous in their own times and a defeat would have been sensational to say the least and not gone unnoticed. This is not unlike the story circulated in iskcon about Chaitanya going to Udipi and defeating the matha heads in debate.

 

If Advaitins were so easily defeated by Vaishnavas, then why is it that the Vaishnava population is just a fraction of the total Advaita population today? Ramanuja lived over 900 years ago and Madhva lived over 700 years ago. Surely all these centuries must have been more than sufficient for the allegedly superior Vaishnava system to obliterate Advaita? Isn't this an obvious contradiction?

 

You ask who are we to decide which god is supreme? The answer is we are the ones and there is no one else! The opinion of Vaishnava scholars has value only to Vaishnavas, who are but a very tiny part of the world's population and just one of several thousand other belief systems. It is very presumptious - to say the least - that you would think that a bunch of scholars from this tiny group are right and everyone who differs from them is wrong just because you chose to be part of that little group. How am I to choose between you who claim that Vaishnavism is the best and the Islam guy who shows evidence that Islam has the most steady growth in numbers? Should I pick you because you will read out stuff from old books and your books may be older than Islam books? Is that the criteria?

 

Lastly, Vaishnavas are by no means a uniform group. There are several branches and they are in conflict with one another - a fact some of them like to pretend is not true. The Madhva will not agree with the Iyengar and the iskcon prabhu will agree with neither. Why don't you pick the supreme and correct branch out of these numerous branches first before taking on the Shaivas and/or Advaitins?

 

Cheers

[gokulkr]

you are talking about the numbers.

there are more islam & christians while comparing to hindus. Taking globally only in india hinduism are followed whereas most of the worldly population following islam & christainity. Just becuase of huge mass follwers, we cannot declare hinduism is false & islam/christanity are truth.

 

similarly, just becuase vaishnavam has small number of followers while compated to advaithins or shaivam, it is wrong to tell vaishnavam is false or advaitha/shaivam is truth.

 

remember we are in kali yuga, whereas followers of the lord gets decreased day by day and influence of anti-vaishnavam gets stronger day by day. So there is no wonder to find islam or xians getting stronger by day, so by in hinsuism other non-vaishnava sects drawing huge followers is not at all a wonder. answer is all happening due to influence of kali. But still no shaiva or advaithin acharya cannot able to defeat even a single vaishnava acharya.

 

To Mr Avinash: yes most of the defeated shaiva/advaitha acharyas accepted vaishnavam and also became shishyas of the vaishnava acharyas.

 

Om Namo Narayana

[gokulkr]

Telling there is no uniformity among vaishnavas and its not a uniform group is a good joke.

 

THere are four gurus who teach about attaining the lord. They are - Rudra,Lakshmi devi,Brahma and Sanatkumaras. From them four great philosophies came - Suddhadvaitha,Vishistadvaitha,Dwaitha,Dwaithadvaitha. Each show their own path of attaining the lord. According to the mentality of follower, he/she can select one of philosophy and attain the lord. Of course, lots of healthy debates has been gone through the four philosphies, but that doesnt degrade or cause clash between these 4 philosophies.

 

If vaishnavas is not a uniform group, so are the shaivas. Even in shaivam there aer many groups such as Veera shaivam, shaiva siddhanta, kashmir shaivam, kaapalikam, saakthas etc... each group have their own philosophy or path. Even debates have occured between these groups. Even adishankara has defeated kaapalikas and some other shaiva groups.

 

Some people dont think of logic while debating.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[matarisvan]

you are talking about the numbers. there are more islam & christians while comparing to hindus. Taking globally only in india hinduism are followed whereas most of the worldly population following islam & christainity. Just becuase of huge mass follwers, we cannot declare hinduism is false & islam/christanity are truth.

I agree with you. You will also agree similarly that because you are a vaishnava you cannot declare vaishnavism is true and everything else is false.

similarly, just becuase vaishnavam has small number of followers while compated to advaithins or shaivam, it is wrong to tell vaishnavam is false or advaitha/shaivam is truth.

Currently you are the one making such statements in support of vaishnavism.

But still no shaiva or advaithin acharya cannot able to defeat even a single vaishnava acharya.

Only because you are ignorant of life outside your vaishnava circle. advaitins will run circles around vaishnava logic any day of the week. As someone already pointed out, vaishnava schools have been existing for 100s of years and they have not scratched the surface of advaita. the proof is in the pudding...if advaita was logically fallible it would have disappeared just like buddhism and purva mimamsa. But vaishnavism miserably failed to break Advaita. They make up stories of how their logic is superior , but keep silent on why they failed to rise above Advaita with their superior logic. Just a bunch of losers who are not willing to accept their place in the world. The dvaita web site refutes your statement of four authorized vaishnava sampradayas. only iskcon makes this claim. The quotes they provide to support their claim are bogus quotes which means you have been a victim of false propoganda.

[gokulkr]

Still you people havent pointed any single acharya who has defeated any vaishnava acharya. Kaivala-Advaithins & Shaivatees are living in a illusion that they have defeated vaishnavas just because they are huge in numbers like islam or xians. Just like islam has huge followers inspite of existence of hinduism, it cannot be declared as true-religion, similarly it applies to shaivatees/kaivaladvaithins also.

 

Buddhism has not disappeared, it still exists and followed in many countries.

 

Vaishnavas is not against advaitha ie, monoism. Vishistadvaitha (Qualified monoism), Suddhadvaitha (Pure monoism) & Dvaithadvaitha (Dual monoism)accept monoism. Only Maya concept of Kaivaladvaitha are not accepted by Vaishnavas. So it is wrong to tell Vaishnavas dont accept monoism and also wrong to think monoism is shaivatee's concept.

 

We are talking about Shiva-vishnu supremacy, not about monoism-dualism.

Vaishnava acharyas has defeated shaivas whereas latter has not done that till date. So Vaishnavam is truth.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[gokulkr]

I am not a ISKCONITE or a Madhva. So if my statements doesnt agree with Madhvas or ISKCONITES, it doesnt mean i am a anti-vaishnava. There are four folds or paths in vaishnava. Each path are equally great. Actually i follow "Sri Vaishnava" ie., Vishistadvaitha (Qualified Monoism).

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[shvu]

 

Still you people havent pointed any single acharya who has defeated any vaishnava acharya. Kaivala-Advaithins & Shaivatees are living in a illusion that they have defeated vaishnavas just because they are huge in numbers like islam or xians.

 

Vaihnavas have been defeated countless times by Advaitins, a reason why Advaita is the dominant system today. Why don't you take a few minutes to read about Appayya Dikshita? He defeated several Sri Vaishnavas and bought them back into the Smarta fold. You asked for one example and Appayya is one. Advaita's logic is so sound that it has never perceived later interepretations of the Sutras as threats. Chitsuka, Harsha, Vidyaranya, MS Saraswati...the list goes on.

 

There is a false story circulated in Vaishnava circles about Appayya being defeated by some Vaishnava scholar. Dr BNK Sharma the dvaita scholar clarifies in his History of Dvaita Sidhanta that this allegation is untrue.

 

Of course, in your circle, defeats of Vaishnavas will not be propogated. Such incidents will be covered up. The same may be true in some cases where advaita/shaiva scholas were defeated. Hence, stories circulated inside groups do not mean much. The clear factor that no can dispute is that Advaita remains the most popular and widely accepted Vedanta tradition today, inspite of attempted and failed onslaughts by Vaishnavas to cut into the market share. Case closed, as far as I am concerned.

 

 

Vaishnavas is not against advaitha ie, monoism. Vishistadvaitha (Qualified We are talking about Shiva-vishnu supremacy, not about monoism-dualism.

 

Advaita does not assign sepcial ranks to some Gods over other Gods. All Gods equally represent the one single Brahman. Hence, Advaita rejects the concepts of Vishnu supremacy and Shiva supremacy alike. A tad more mature than sectarian groups, don't you think?

 

Cheers

[gokulkr]

Again your arguements is taking in different direction. I am talking about Vishnu-Shiva Supremacy. Not about monoism-dualism debate. I am not talking about advaitins or dvaitins.

Sri Ramanujacharya has defeated many shaivas and so does Sri Madhvacharya also. You are telling that some vaishnavas got defeated by some shaivas.

I dont think this arguement will end.

Shiva means "Holy one". This name also applies for "Lord Narashima" also.

Vishnu means "Omnipotent" or "One who is prevaling enerywhere", that applies to "Brahman".

Moreover, in "Narashima-purvatapamani Upanishad" it is said that "Uma-Maheshwara" and "Lakshmi-Narashima" are one.

Also Madhvacharya tells that inside "Shiva linga" "Vayu, Rudra & Narashima" resides. Therefore, Shiva-linga worship is made in Madhva mutts & madhva-temples.

Sri Vedanta Desika tells that "Sri Rudram" applies to "Lord Narashima" also.

 

You worship "Brahman" as Shiva whereas i will worship as "Vishnu".

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Advaita does not assign sepcial ranks to some Gods over other Gods. All Gods equally represent the one single Brahman. Hence, Advaita rejects the concepts of Vishnu supremacy and Shiva supremacy alike. A tad more mature than sectarian groups, don't you think?

 

Well said, Shvu. I always think that Vaishnavas are the babies of world theists, because of their characteristic puerile attitude vis-a-vis rival faiths. This, more than anything else, has caused me to dump this false religion, and adopt a more rational and reasonable agnostic stance. My conscience now feels infinitely lighter as a result of this changed, wiser position. It is high time Vaishnavas grew up, as you hinted at in your replies on this thread.

 

Cheers

[Sephiroth]

Can anyone tell me what you people going to get IF anyone (acharya or normal person) able to proof whether Maha Vishnu or Mahareswa is superior?

 

Answer - Nothing, because your idiotic debates are based on your own Egoistic characteristics. And because of this Ego, Hindusm is slowly dying.

 

 

About 500 years ago, Hindusm have been spread to most countries in Asia. Hindus have civilizations in Malaya, Java, Indo-China (Thailand, Loas, Vietnam etc) and all the way to Afghanistan. Today, it is struggling in India where Indians themselves are busy killing off this religion.

 

And what does Hindus doing? Instead of protecting their own beliefs and way of life, you people busy debating which aspect of God is superior - the Maintainer or Destroyer. Not only that, you come online and spreading this idiotic debate and giving bad impression to those who wants to learn about Hindusm as well.

[gokulkr]

There is no proof that any acharya or gurus of "Vada killai Sri Vaishnava" Sampradaya has defeated by any advaitin or dvaitin or shaivas. If there is show me the proof with full details.

 

So it is clear that "Sri Vaishnavam" is ultimate philosophy and "Sriman Narayana" is Brahman.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

[Avinash]

gokulkr,

How do you explain the story of Shiva appearing as a pillar and Vishnu not able to find its end?

[dvteeofKrsna]

Those who consider any deva to be Greater than Lord Krsna, are materially polluted. Krsna clearly identifies his status as the Absolute Truth in the Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam provides much information to acknowledge this view. Accept the words of the acharays and there will be no more conflict. i have been a devotee of Lord SIva for 16 years but Siva showd me the way and took me to Krsna. No offense meant to any other devotee. Hari Bol

[gokulkr]

Avinash,

Your said story comes from Shiva purana which is a tamasic purana. Tamasic purana are not considered as authenticated. Why dont you shaivatees come out of tamasic puranas and show some real proof ?

This had been proved by "Sri Madhvacharya" & "Sri Vedanta Desika".

 

Om Namo Naryanaya

[Avinash]

 

Avinash,

Your said story comes from Shiva purana which is a tamasic purana. Tamasic purana are not considered as authenticated.

But who says that Shiva Puranas are tamasic? Vaishnavas say this, isn't it. Shaivas do not accept Shiva puranas as tamasic. Why should arguments of Vaishnavas be real proof but not the arguments of Shaivas?

 

 

Why dont you shaivatees come out of tamasic puranas and show some real proof ?

I am not a shaivaite. Since you claim Vishnu is supreme, that is why I am asking for proof. If somebody claims Shiva is supreme, I will ask him also for proof.

 

This had been proved by "Sri Madhvacharya" & "Sri Vedanta Desika".

Many advaitins claim that advaita scholars have proved advaita as authentic.

[gokulkr]

To Avinash :

Most of the vaishnava acharyas have told "Shiva purana" is a tamasic purana. Also in "Padma purana" it is clearly quoted that "Shiva purana" is tamasic. Also veda vyasa also clearly stated that "Shiva purana" is tamasic. Only tamasic puranas hail "Shiva" as supreme, whereas all other scriptures claim "Vishnu" as supreme.

 

Till now no advaitha or shaivas has defeated "Vada killai Sri Vaishnava" gurus/acharyas. So its clearly shows "Qualified Monoism" is ultimate philosophy and "Vishnu" is supreme.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya.

[shvu]

 

To Avinash :

Most of the vaishnava acharyas have told "Shiva purana" is a tamasic purana. Also in "Padma purana" it is clearly quoted that "Shiva purana" is tamasic. Also veda vyasa also clearly stated that "Shiva purana" is tamasic. Only tamasic puranas hail "Shiva" as supreme, whereas all other scriptures claim "Vishnu" as supreme.

 

Of course, the Vaishnava acharyas will say that. What else does one expect them to say? And who other than a Vaishnava is gonna attach any value to their ridiculous claims?

 

And why did Vyasa fail to mention in the Shiva Purana itself that it is a tamasic purana? What excuse have the Vada Killai folks cooked up to counter this question?

 

 

Till now no advaitha or shaivas has defeated "Vada killai Sri Vaishnava" gurus/acharyas. So its clearly shows "Qualified Monoism" is ultimate philosophy and "Vishnu" is supreme.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya.

 

Give it a rest, dude. You are repeating your same old misinformed beliefs again. You incorrectly gave the names of Appaya Dikshita and Madhusudhana Saraswati when asked for evidence.

 

The Madhvas claim they defeated Advaitins and all other schools of Vedanta (including your Vada killai group). Iskcon claims Chaitanya the bengali saint traveled through South India once and defeated/humbled both the followers of Ramanuja (your group, that is) and Madhva. Most, if not all of these claims are bogus. Every group lays claims to victory just like you do. Result? Naive people like Gokulr are only told a few success stories (not all of them real) and no stories of defeat at all, thus giving them a completely wrong picture. If any single group can make such a claim and support it by some evidence, it is Advaita. The volumes of criticism written by Vaishnavas against Advaita failed to create even a tiny dent.

 

The fact of the matter is, most of these claims have no basis in facts and even if some are true, it is obvious that stories of defeat are not kept alive. For all their rave reviews of themselves and their tall claims of defeating advaita, they cannot explain their insignificant numbers vs. the dominant and vibrant presence of Advaita. On the other hand when Advaiita claims defeat of Mimamsa, it is supported by evidence as we see that Mimamsa is practically non-existent today.

 

Don't take my word for it. Keep an open mind and make an independent study without just listening to the colorful stories of your Vada killai elders. You do not want to turn out to be the frog in the well.

 

Cheers