Do all fallen souls eventually achieve liberation?

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

You are already liberated, you just have to wake up from the material dream

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

[Guruvani]

 

 

However, in a purely objective sense Madhvacarya's ideas are a rational theory for the existence of absolute evil and the destination of souls, much more so than the Christian version.

 

 

Maybe Madhvacharya wove a fairytale or two himself for the purpose of preaching his aishvarya-bhakti?

 

It appears that some acharyas feel it necessary to bend the truth a little for the sake of the dull and downtrodden.

 

The only difficulty is that when the dull and downtrodden eventually learn how to read shastra they start to see a little mythology or fairytale telling going on to nurse and nurture the conditioned souls who are dealing with limited capacity to understand the more intricate and esoteric aspects of siddhanta.

 

Then, some conflict arises between the lads in fairytale land and the shastra oriented students.

[theist]

 

Where do the rank and file entities that man the hellish regions and administer punishment to those condemned to a term there stand in terms of self-realization...are they in illusion or are they spiritually-aware devotees?

 

It seems logical to me that they are in illusion, since a self-realized soul doesn't wish to inflict suffering on anyone, and a self-realized soul in the most advanced stages will not even differentiate between saint and sinner.

 

 

Interesting question. I think like you do. We accept Yamaraja as an aware devotee but those that work under him may not be so. Yeah they may enjoy their work a little too much.lol Something like the difference between the court judge and the ordinary prision guard.

 

We see the difference between the Yamadhutas and the Vishnudutas clearly defined when Ajamila was leaving his body.

[theist]

 

Maybe Madhvacharya wove a fairytale or two himself for the purpose of preaching his aishvarya-bhakti?

 

It appears that some acharyas feel it necessary to bend the truth a little for the sake of the dull and downtrodden.

 

The only difficulty is that when the dull and downtrodden eventually learn how to read shastra they start to see a little mythology or fairytale telling going on to nurse and nurture the conditioned souls who are dealing with limited capacity to understand the more intricate and esoteric aspects of siddhanta.

 

Then, some conflict arises between the lads in fairytale land and the shastra oriented students.

 

Maybe you could explain to us just how such ideas actually help the dull and downtrodden. Please give an example.

 

My opinion is this stupid idea spread by the so-called Christians and Islamists and others only succeeds in spreading fear and ultimately creating atheists.

 

I believe it to be a fairytale that such a great devotee as Madvacarya can never be mistaken. Maybe he was just wrong on this one. The idea that these world teachers are just passing out fairytales needs to be backup by some logic and not just stated.

[sanatan]

 

My opinion is this stupid idea spread by the so-called Christians and Islamists and others only succeeds in spreading fear and ultimately creating atheists.

 

The Christians succeeded in making a hard-nut agnostic out of me from early childhood, that's for darn sure.

 

By and large, both Christianity and Islam are religions whose members propogate doctrines of fear, delusion, and ignorance.

 

There are individual exceptions, of course.

 

 

 

I believe it to be a fairytale that such a great devotee as Madvacarya can never be mistaken. Maybe he was just wrong on this one. The idea that these world teachers are just passing out fairytales needs to be backup by some logic and not just stated.

 

Agree. He was a scholar and theologian with a very difficult logical and philosophical problem to resolve. If he was mistaken, it doesn't detract from his devotional character anymore than the fact that some of Srila Prabhupada's Indian cultural norms just plain didn't work in the west detracts from his.

 

The same can be said for Christians and Islamists who exhibit a high degree of spiritual character despite their ingrained doctrinal beliefs.

[suchandra]

 

Maybe you could explain to us just how such ideas actually help the dull and downtrodden. Please give an example.

 

 

 

one example:

 

sri-rupa-ragunatha-pade yara asa

caitanya-caritamrta kahe krsna-dasa

 

"This is the process. He does not say that "I've understood Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly." No. That is not understanding. That is foolishness. You cannot understand what is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore repeatedly he says, rupa-ragunatha-pade... "I am that Krsna dasa, Kaviraja, who is always under the subordination of the Gosvamis." This is parampara system. Similarly, Narottama dasa Thakura also says, ei chay gosai jar mui tar das, "I am servant of that person who has accepted this six Gosvamis as his master. I am not going to be servant of any other person who does not accept the way and means of..." Therefore we say or we offer our prayer to our spiritual master, rupanuga-varaya te, rupanuga-varaya te, because he follows Rupa Gosvami, therefore we accept, spiritual master. Not that one has become more than Rupa Gosvami or more than... No. Tandera carana-sebi-bhakta-sane vas. This is the parampara system."

 

[srila Prabhupada from Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.15.30 Los Angeles, December 8, 1973]

[theist]

 

one example:

 

sri-rupa-ragunatha-pade yara asa

caitanya-caritamrta kahe krsna-dasa

 

"This is the process. He does not say that "I've understood Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly." No. That is not understanding. That is foolishness. You cannot understand what is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore repeatedly he says, rupa-ragunatha-pade... "I am that Krsna dasa, Kaviraja, who is always under the subordination of the Gosvamis." This is parampara system. Similarly, Narottama dasa Thakura also says, ei chay gosai jar mui tar das, "I am servant of that person who has accepted this six Gosvamis as his master. I am not going to be servant of any other person who does not accept the way and means of..." Therefore we say or we offer our prayer to our spiritual master, rupanuga-varaya te, rupanuga-varaya te, because he follows Rupa Gosvami, therefore we accept, spiritual master. Not that one has become more than Rupa Gosvami or more than... No. Tandera carana-sebi-bhakta-sane vas. This is the parampara system."

 

[srila Prabhupada from Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.15.30 Los Angeles, December 8, 1973]

 

suchandra, sorry but I have no idea how the quote you gave relates to the question I posed to Guruvani. Please clarify.

[theist]

sanatan, I am happy to be on the same page with you. I don't look on these great souls as answer machines that must ever answer to every single question. They are not omniscient, they are more than that, they are pure devotees of the Lord. Both Madvacarya and Srila Prabhupada have left gigantic footprints on the surface of the earth as they marked out the glorious path of theism and love for God. They are giants and we are ants trying to walk the distance of just one such footprint of theirs from the heel to the toe in this lifetime.

 

Even though we are ants I believe it a God given mandate not to be a blind believer and I claim my right and duty to question what they say as fully and deeply as I am able, and I do not consider that to be an offense. In fact I believe just the ooposite, that blind following without bothering to inquire deeply is an offense. It denotes laziness and lack of desire to really Know.

 

This is one reason I void christianity even though I am a reborn Christian. I cannot tolerate the usual answer they give to any question that the Bible does not answer (and that is a lot of ?'s) which is, "God's ways are mysterious brother, just believe." I have gotten this answer a thousand times when I challenge them on this eternal damnation nonsense.

 

I am willing to believe that the actual nature of love between the jiva and Krsna surpasses all intellectualism but not questions on basic theology such as this one.

 

A case in point from last week. I encountered a small group of young students who were also communists out selling their commie papers. We had a real nice chat. I introduced myself as a theistic communist. One guy grew up in a very religious Christian family but became an atheist because no one could answer his questions like this one that we are dealing with.

 

I could see his face brighten when I explained my belief that despite our class circumstances in this world in reality we are all equal souls and all would eventually be liberated from the cycle of birth and death. Not that that convinced him to believe in God but it softened him just a wee bit.

 

He asked me why I, who grew up an atheist selling commie papers on the street like him in the sixties no longer did so and I explained that material communism was still based on class distinction because they did not recognize the animals like cows, and the trees etc. as also citizens worthy of protection. These so-called communists are all specieists and exploiters. Only theistic communism sees all with true equality but on the brahma bhuta platform.

 

From this platform of equal vision then would it be possible for the Lord to just forget a whole section of His children and let them rot away eternally in their false sense of happiness and not make every effort to save them? It is unthinkable and it is incombent on those that profess such a doctrine to explain how that works in depth.

 

We await their attempt.

[passionate_freak]

All we do is read and say and believe what is there, told by the masters and so so so....

 

Not fallen souls get the liberation. If this have been a case then all the good might be prevailing the earth.

[theist]

 

All we do is read and say and believe what is there, told by the masters and so so so....

 

Not fallen souls get the liberation. If this have been a case then all the good might be prevailing the earth.

 

Why? Do you think the earth is the center of existence or something? In the material world the demons become good and the good become demons and there are all sorts of mixtures in between.

 

On top of that as some become liberated and some others enter the material dreamlike atmosphere.

 

There are also an umlimited number of souls. To gauge all existence on what is occuring on this less than an atomic piece of dust called earth is not very sensible.

[sanatan]

 

sanatan, I am happy to be on the same page with you.

 

And I am happy as well to be on the same page with your good self.

 

 

I don't look on these great souls as answer machines that must ever answer to every single question. They are not omniscient, they are more than that, they are pure devotees of the Lord. Both Madvacarya and Srila Prabhupada have...

 

The omniscience thing was a somewhat perplexing problem for me. When I returned to ISKCON 22+ yrs ago, I was told that Srila Prabhupada as well as all of the then-presiding ZA's were infallible in every respect, knowing the movement of even "every blade of grass". OK...not long after, in looking at a photo of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, I noticed he was wearing a wristwatch. Hmm...shouldn't a saktavesaya-avatara who has surpassed all siddhis be able to give you the time of day, on-demand, for any location in the universe? What does he need a watch for??!! In retrospect, that photo was my cue to coming to an understanding of what you have expressed

 

 

Even though we are ants I believe it a God given mandate not to be a blind believer...

 

You're on firm ground. As we know, Srila Prabhupada said the same thing as an instruction; I can't pull the quote(s) out of the air offhand.

 

 

This is one reason I void christianity even though I am a reborn Christian. I cannot tolerate the usual answer they give...

 

My experience as well...I outright avoid spiritual topics or change the subject when associating with any of the many Christians I know in "real life". It's only online that I've encountered traditional Christians with firm faith yet an open attitude, and they are few and far between.

 

 

I am willing to believe that the actual nature of love between the jiva and Krsna surpasses all intellectualism but not questions on basic theology such as this one.

 

A case in point from last week. I encountered a small group of young students who were also communists out selling their commie papers. We had a real nice chat. I introduced myself as a theistic communist. One guy...

 

This story illustrates some points...the satisfactions that even small "preaching successes" bring, how irrationality alienates the thoughtful type of individual early-on, and our common position of having found the big-picture answer but still wanting to sort out the details.

 

 

From this platform of equal vision then would it be possible for the Lord to just forget a whole section of His children and let them rot away eternally in their false sense of happiness and not make every effort to save them? It is unthinkable and it is incombent on those that profess such a doctrine to explain how that works in depth.

 

We await their attempt.

 

The Christian version of this philosophical position makes absolutely no sense.

 

I find Madhvacarya's version fascinating and a worthy subject for discussion and debate because he is such an important figure in Vaisnava disciplic succession and theological lineage...but that doesn't mean I accept it.

[theist]

 

 

 

The omniscience thing was a somewhat perplexing problem for me.

Prabhupada explains omniscient in terms of the devotee as being one who knows everything by dint of knowing Krsna who is Himself everything. Not that we become God in the sense of being all-knowing. Apparently some prominent Vaisnava teachers teach a different version.

 

 

 

You're on firm ground. As we know, Srila Prabhupada said the same thing as an instruction; I can't pull the quote(s) out of the air offhand.

 

Here is one.

 

TRANSLATION

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

PURPORT

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmam tu sakshad bhagavat-pranitam: the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. Not only should one hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.

 

 

 

I find Madhvacarya's version fascinating and a worthy subject for discussion and debate because he is such an important figure in Vaisnava disciplic succession and theological lineage...but that doesn't mean I accept it.

 

I agree. Until a few weeks back when you mentioned it in one of your posts I had no idea such an idea was held by any vaisnava's. I am really very ignorant on what differences there are between different Vaisnava groups.

 

But I have to admit I am not familar where it is discussed that all souls eventually become liberated either. It would be good to get some explicit scripture rather than relying on our own extrapolations.

[sanatan]

 

Prabhupada explains omniscient in terms of the devotee as being one who knows everything by dint of knowing Krsna who is Himself everything. Not that we become God in the sense of being all-knowing. Apparently some prominent Vaisnava teachers teach a different version.

 

I've also heard, maybe discussed here, that omniscient in the spiritual sense doesn't necessarily mean that a perfected individual has complete knowledge of of every material fact...by dint of being nitya-siddha or sadhana-siddha, he is spiritually omniscient, a perfect knower of how to love Krsna.

 

 

Here is one.

 

TRANSLATION

Just try to learn the truth....

 

That verse and purport are what I was trying to remember....shows you how well I know my basic scripture.

 

 

 

I agree. Until a few weeks back when you mentioned it in one of your posts I had no idea such an idea was held by any vaisnava's. I am really very ignorant on what differences there are between different Vaisnava groups.

 

But I have to admit I am not familar where it is discussed that all souls eventually become liberated either. It would be good to get some explicit scripture rather than relying on our own extrapolations.

 

For a long time I didn't even know there were distinct and different Vaisnava groups.

 

A few posts back Sarva gattah posted a list of Srila Prabhupada's comments on the matter of liberation; however, these are personal quotes or purports and not direct scripture. Yes, knowing the scriptural origin of the idea of eventual liberation for all would be good for ourselves as well as for discussions with Christians, etc.

 

Unfortunately, the little I know seems to point in the opposite direction.

 

I've also been curious as to the existence of scholarly criticism or debate from the time of Madhvacarya that deals with his theories...at what exact point in history did his ideas cease to be part of the Vaisnava canon, at least the one we are following? How many Vaisnava sects still adhere to these?

 

One thing for certain, there's no centralized succession of "popes" to clear these things up.

 

I had started doing some online research on this and had a folder on my aol page with bookmarked sites...then the aol program got corrupted, I lost the links, and I'm now using internet explorer. Maybe time to reinstall aol and get the links back.

[Guruvani]

It's called "shastra-caksus".

the self-realized souls see through the eyes of shastra.

As such they know past, present and future according to what the shastra reveals.

 

Otherwise, the omnipotence theory that some people have been touting is just a typical neophyte misconception that gets out of control and becomes siddhanta by repetition and self-deception.

[sanatan]

 

It's called "shastra-caksus".

the self-realized souls see through the eyes of shastra.

As such they know past, present and future according to what the shastra reveals.

 

Otherwise, the omnipotence theory that some people have been touting is just a typical neophyte miconception that gets out of control and becomes siddhanta by repetition and self-deception.

 

Thanks for putting a name on this.

 

I consider it a debatable point. I don't think shastrically-expert and self-realized necessarily go hand in hand.

 

Making a guess...there are/were self-realized souls that are/were relatively unlettered in shastra. Completely, totally unlettered, I have a hard time imagining.

 

Regarding "omnipotence", I was thinking...I never heard omnipotence mentioned in the days of Srila Prabhupada/early ISKCON.

 

As I told theist, the fact that all the Zonal Acharyas were omnipotent was revealed to me during my reconnection with ISKCON in '85.