KRSNA Consciousness is a science as opposed to a pseudo-science or a cult

[krsna]

Pravda

 

BY: BHAKTA ALEX

Sep 25, OTTAWA, CANADA (SUN) —

 

I recently came across a

philosophical distinction made by former Polish communist Joseph Berger,

in his 1971 book Shipwreck of a Generation. Berger discusses two Russian

words that were used in communist times as denoting truth. The word

"istina" referred to objective reality. It was the truth that is. There

was also the word "pravda". My understanding is that in Polish "pravda"

simply means truth, but in communist parlance the term referred to

something like "higher Communist truth". In other words, pravda referred

to how things should be, according to the communist view of the world,

not to how things really were in objective reality.

There was a famous communist newspaper called "Pravda", ostensibly

implying that the newspaper reported the truth. But the truth that it

reported was only that which was in line with how things should be,

according to communist ideas. If objective truth was not in line with

what should be true according to the communist view, then that truth

didn't get printed.

To my mind this ties in with a number of controversial issues related to

the ISKCON organization. For starters, in the second edition of the book

Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link

<http://www.geocitie s.com/pointofsur render/index. htm> (PL) there's a

mention of a change made to the Sri Caitanya Caritamrta

<http://vedabase. net/cc/en> (CC). The second paragraph of the summary

of Adi-lila chapter 1 lists some members of the parampara, and mentions

their relationship to each other. In the second edition of PL, in an

article entitled "Caitanya-caritamrt a- Page 1

<http://www.geocitie s.com/pointofsur render/pl- caitanya. htm> ", Dhira

Govinda Prabhu writes the following about the original version of this

paragraph:

"Perhaps even more noteworthy is that Srila Prabhupada uses the word

'initiated' to describe parampara relationships where no official

initiation occurred, in reference to the relationships between Srila

Jagannatha dasa Babaji and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and between Srila

Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji.

"In the recently published edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta the

editors deleted the words 'initiated' in the two cases cited above."

There was no initiation ceremony formally linking Srila Bhaktivinode

Thakura to Jagannatha dasa Babaji, but Srila Prabhupada nonetheless uses

the word "initiated" when mentioning them in succession. A BBT

representative stated:

"Thank you for your inquiry concerning the Caitanya-caritamrta changes.

I agonized over this one for some time, consulting several senior

devotees before making this change."

(...)

"On the side of not changing the 'initiated' phrases we have the strong

bias against changing the books unless absolutely necessary and the fact

that Srila Prabhupada did indeed say that Jagannatha das Babaji

initiated Bhaktivinode. "

This is where I think pravda and istina come in. The BBT representative

sates that "Srila Prabhupada did indeed say that Jagannatha das Babaji

initiated Bhaktivinode. " This would be the istina. This is what actually

is. If the the BBT representative is correct, then Srila Prabhupada did

actually state that Jagannatha das Babaji initiated Bhaktivinode.

Now on to the pravda. Dhira Govinda Prabhu writes:

"Of concern is that the explanation for deleting the word 'initiated'

seems to be largely based on the understanding of the word 'initiated',

'as we know it in ISKCON'. Perhaps when Srila Prabhupada used the word

'initiated', he did so deliberately, and the meaning of the term as it

has come to be understood in ISKCON is incomplete. That is, instead of

making changes in this passage based on what we think Srila Prabhupada

may have meant, it may be fruitful to consider that the current

conception in the organization of the word 'initiated' is not perfectly

consistent with Srila Prabhupada's understanding of the concept."

So the pravda here is the understanding of the word "initiatedas we

know it in ISKCON". The pravda in this case is the assumptions that we

make about the word "initiated". The pravda is what the word "initiated"

should mean, according to how things are currently understood in ISKCON,

as opposed to what Srila Prabhupada actually states in this instance.

The BBT representative writes:

"Notice that while Srila Prabhupada does say that Bhaktivinode Thakura

was initiated by Jagannatha das Babaji, he doesn't say that Gaura

Kishora das Babaji was initiated by Bhaktivinode, which was added in the

1975 edition of the CC. Historically, neither is accurate if we accept

the usual sense in which Srila Prabhupada used the word 'initiated.' So

just on the grounds of bringing the new edition closer to the original

words Srila Prabhupada wrote, no longer having Bhaktivinode initiating

Gaura-kisora is justified. But we are still left with Jagannatha das

initiating Bhaktivinode. "

So the istina, the objective truth, seems to be that Srila Prabhupada

actually stated that Jagannathat dasa Babaji initiated Srila

Bhaktivinode Thakura. If what the BBT representative is saying is

correct, then the objective reality is that Srila Prabhupada actually

said it.

When discussing two instances of the word "initiated" being used in the

CC paragraph in question, the BBT representative states that

historically "neither is accurate". The implication here seems to be

that Srila Prabhupada is making an incorrect statement, because his

statement does not conform to our understanding.

As far as I can tell, this is an interpretation. It's an interpretation

based on how things should be. It's pravda, rather than istina. First of

all, we assume that we correctly understand Srila Prabhupada's

philosophy. Then we assert that our current understanding of that

philosophy is identical with what Srila Prabhupada is teaching. If what

Srila Prabhupada is teaching turns out to be different that our current

understanding of that philosophy, we change what Srila Prabhupada is

teaching, in order to bring it in line with our current understanding.

Reality be damned. Pravda trumps istana.

In Shipwreck of a Generation, Joseph Berger writes:

"In the rooms of the NKVD and at Party meetings, istina was nothing - it

was relative and it could easily be changed: only pravda was absolute.

It seemed to me, as it must do to millions of others who have not been

through this school, hard to understand how a philological distinction

could have such an effect on the lives of so many. But in fact this

small difference - this tyranny of pravda over istina - was the lever by

which white was turned into black; no such dialectic had existed since

the Inquisition. The notion of pravda was the basis of power."

As Dhira Govinda Prabhu writes in a post to the PL conference from

August 30th, 2007

<http://www.geocitie s.com/pointofsur render/pl- this_isnt_ about_philosophy \

.htm> :

"Earlier today I had a conversation with a devotee in his early thirties

who was raised in the Hare Krsna movement. He related to me about an

initiation ceremony that was recently conducted by an ISKCON guru here

in Alachua. At the event the person conducting the ceremony stated that

he is initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. This devotee with whom I

was speaking did not claim to have any special philosophical insight

into the controversies surrounding the guru issue, and his state of

distress when talking with me did not stem in a direct way from any

philosophical stance. He expressed simply that 'When I was growing up at

these ceremonies they would say this, and ten years ago they would say

that, and now they're saying something different... ' Perceiving and

experiencing this inconsistency, his faith in the system and people

leading it is almost completely destroyed."

The way I see it, it's like there's a "discourse community" within the

ISKCON organization that defines reality. Certain ideas are

ideologically correct (pravda), even if they are not supported by

reality (istina). The "discourse community" has been forced by reality

(istina) to modify their virtual world (pravda) a number of times,

because the gap between reality and the virtual world that they were

living in was too great. It was too difficult to maintain the

self-deception needed to live in the virtual world for a long period of

time.

I think the above-mentioned terminology may also tie in to the issue of

Srila Prabhupada's disappearance pastime. I recently read a 1999 article

by Dhanesvara Prabhu, entitled "Impact Assessment Of The Poison

Controversy <http://www.vnn. org/editorials/ ET9910/ET02- 4849.html> ". In

the article, Dhanesvara Prabhu states:

"As we have discussed in the previous segment this whole poisoning

affair has immense implications that almost naturally create a knee-jerk

reaction based upon both our experiences and the outcome we desire.

Therefore we have heard many devotees make statements to the effect that

this couldn't possibly be true "because . . .(fill in the blank)." The

arguments why this cannot be true run an entire gamut from Prabhupada's

self-realized, pure devotee status to someone's personal relationship

with those who would have been the so-called conspirators.

"Despite the fact that we may have so many reasons why it could not have

happened, we do have one very strong reason to believe that it did-Srila

Prabhupada said that he was being poisoned."

So here again we have pravda and istina. The reality (istina) is that

Srila Prabhupada actually said certain things. These things may come

into conflict with the official explanation (pravda) of Srila

Prabhupada's disappearance. This can cause some cognitive dissonance in

us, and the possible implications of what Srila Prabhupada said are

certainly intense, profound and far-reaching. In the same article,

Dhanesvara Prabhu states the following about the possibility of Srila

Prabhupada being poisoned:

"The consequences of the second case, that in fact Srila Prabhupada was

poisoned, are immense and terrible to contemplate. Beyond coming to know

that such a thing had in fact happened, everyone will have to deal with

the many implications and consequences. Past, present, and future

consequences will all simultaneously clamor for attention. Feelings of

betrayal and mistrust would rise to extreme levels. The entire history

of the society as influenced by those involved in the conspiracy would

have to be reconsidered. It is immediately implied that any persons who

had any hand in this most despicable activity would have to be

immediately expelled from the society at the very least, and given the

fact that all those who were close enough to Srila Prabhupada at the

time to have participated in this are now gurus there would be immense

implications for those who had accepted initiation from them as well.

"It is the terrible implications of this possible truth that make the

situation difficult to contemplate. "

There are a number of issues connected to the ISKCON institution that

can be difficult, uncomfortable and unpleasant to contemplate. In his

Sampradaya Sun article "Faith Is Blind And Ignorance is Bliss

<http://www.harekrsn a.com/sun/ editorials/ 03-07/editorials 1372.htm> ",

Hrishikesh Prabhu writes:

"...one mother told me her son at the New Vrindaban Gurukula exclaimed

to her once during a 1979 visit with his mother: 'Guess what! While you

were gone I was selected to be Kirtanananda Swami's personal servant for

a week! And do you know what? He fondled my genitals!' The mother

chastised her son: 'You're in maya! Bhaktipada's a pure devotee! Don't

you ever say any nonsense like that again or I'll chastise you

severely!'"

So in 1979 the pravda, the socially-constructe d and socially-reinforced

"reality", was that Kirtanananda was a "pure devotee". If you didn't

play along with this idea, you were a bad guy. If you pointed out

something bad that Kirtanananda was doing (istina), you were the bad guy

for pointing it out. Kirtanananda, the person who was engaging in the

activity wasn't himself bad. You were bad for perceiving, acknowledging

and pointing out what Kirtanananda was doing.

If you played along, and pretended that this person was a pure devotee,

then you did inner violence to yourself. The term "pure devotee" lost

its meaning. Words are important. "Pure devotee" means something, and

it's possible to distort that meaning, and then to spread that distorted

definition (pravda) throughout the culture. Every time we use the

expression "pure devotee" in a way that isn't true, then we cheat

ourselves, and we cheat the other person.

Every time we bow to a false idea, and act as though it's true, it

corrupts us from inside. It fogs up our perception. We lie to ourselves.

The longer we play the game (pravda), the more we start to identify with

the game, the more we forget what reality (istina) outside of the game

is like.

What if some of the things that we're told from within the ISKCON

organization, and that the we're the most sure of, were simply not true?

How might that affect our map of reality?

Joseph Berger writes:

"In 1936, I eventually succeeded in persuading one of my most

intelligent interrogators to answer my question: 'Are you not in the

least interested in what actually happened? Do you really only want the

pre-selected truth which is the "Party" truth?' He gave this trenchant

reply:

"'Pravda is what appeared in today's leading article in Pravda [the

newspaper]. Anything that doesn't fit into this framework is, for us,

objectively, not true. What have we to do with your petty istinas?'"

It's okay to have ideas in our head, but we have to stay open to the

feedback loop from reality (istina). In an exchange with Professor J. F.

Staal, Professor of Philosophy and of South Asian Languages at the

University of California Berkeley, in January of 1970, Srila Prabhupada

states: "We have to test everything by its practical result."

We have to test everything by its practical result (istina). As far as I

can see, this is the sort of thing that makes Krsna Consciousness a

science, as opposed to a pseudo-science, or a cult.

[Kulapavana]

 

I recently came across a

philosophical distinction made by former Polish communist Joseph Berger...

 

Berger was actually a Jewish, not a Polish communist. This is the "istina" the author of this article is avoiding

[stonehearted]

No jews in Poland? (I guess not any more.)

[Guruvani]

[Kulapavana]

 

No jews in Poland? (I guess not any more.)

 

You have to know the history of this period to understand the irony. Berger and most of the other communists in pre-WW2 Poland were not Poles - either ethnically or in terms of allegiance to the said country. Berger was a Jew who at one time lived in Poland, but who never identified himself with being a Pole.

 

Have you ever heard of the Rote Kapelle? Berger was a member of that organization.

 

And btw. there are many Jews who live in Poland. Poles saved more Jews in WW2 than anybody else - thousands of Poles were executed or sent to concentration camps for helping Jews. Check out the Yad Vashem records.

[stonehearted]

Don't take it seriously, Kula. It was admittedly a throwaway question. I have no idea what it takes for someone to be considered a Pole. My family had been expoiting North America for almost 400 years, and I've only left the country four times in the last 60 years. I'm provincial, a bumpkin, compared to all you cosmopolitan world citizens. (Damn, am I starting to sound like Sparky?)

[Kulapavana]

 

Don't take it seriously, Kula. It was admittedly a throwaway question.

 

My initial post was very light. Actually the article is quite interesting and I took it far more seriously then my previous posts indicate.

 

To some extent our ideological intensity in the HK movement mirrors that of old communist organizations, and we even had similar problems when dealing with objective reality. Some devotees still consider wiping themselves with a bare hand culturaly superior to using toilet paper and that is just a very innocent example of self imposed reality filter in our community. That is the pseudo-science part.

[suchandra]

 

The BBT representative writes:

"Notice that while Srila Prabhupada does say that Bhaktivinode Thakura was initiated by Jagannatha das Babaji, he doesn't say that Gaura Kishora das Babaji was initiated by Bhaktivinode, which was added in the 1975 edition of the CC. Historically, neither is accurate if we accept the usual sense in which Srila Prabhupada used the word 'initiated.' a cult.

 

"This human psychology is the same everywhere. In India many rich men’s son, until he has spoiled his father’s whole money, he is restless. And when he is turned to a beggar, then he is satisfied. I have seen many, spoiling father’s money like anything, and the same man, when he is beggar in the street, he feels happy. I shall quote one statement of a very big man, politician, Mr. C.R. Das. So he died in 1925. He was about our father’s age. So he was earning in those days fifty thousand rupees per month. Fifty thousand… our rupee or dollar is the same. Although exchange value is different, but the… Locally, the purchasing capacity is the same. So he and his wife were sitting on the corridor, and the wife was talking that, “Why you are so morose always? You are earning like anything. You have got respect as political leader. Everyone likes you. You have no want. Why you are sorry? How you can become happy? What is your program?”

So on the street one mendicant was going on. He said, “I want to become like that mendicant; then I will be happy.” And at last, he became like that."

 

(Conversation July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach)

[theist]

Great artical.

 

Pravda = as others would have it be

 

Istina = As It Is

[krsna]

Yes there is the pure knowlege-based paradigm science as outlined in the sastras and then there is the Absolute Truth the Krsna TATTVA found in the heart, mind and consciousness of the pure devotee mahajana, tattva-vit acarya - mahajana yena gatha sa pantha - the path that is practically applied by the sadhu vaisnava guru who can practically show by his life's example how to be in Krsna Conciousness moment to moment 'on the ground' and 'in real time'.

 

Isn't this the difference between apparent relative ever-changing material truth and the constant ever-existing Absolute Truth of the Supreme Transcendence Lord Sri Krsna (And everything else seen as related to Him, the Krsna conception of daivi varnasrama or the Isavasya construct of spiritual reality)?

 

There is the pure science of scientific theory in the books of scripture but then there is the applied practical experiential science of growing your own bhakti-lata creeper of pure devotion wherein only Bhakti-devi Herself consents to appear independently so that the plant of pure devotion will bear the fruit of Krsna prema.

 

Who will guide you from the intellectual titilating platform mode of the arm-chair philosopher:deal: to the on hands pure spiritual mode of 'acting on the platform of the spirit soul' wherein every moment is eternal full of bliss and knowlege?

 

Who's got that power, authority and ultimately mercy to bring Vraja prema rasa to the fallen conditioned souls of the Age of Kali?

 

 

 

<CENTER>

 

 

 

From Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarawati Prabhupada's

 

'Real and Apparent Vaishnavism'

 

Daya or kindness to jiva

 

</CENTER>One apparent jiva considers himself (mentally and physically) less distressed than another jiva, feels for his distress and does something in the shape of relief or redress. This is but stopping or diminishing the unending miseries partly, locally or temporarily. It is frequently seen that a jiva who feels aggrieved and consequently abstains from committing wrong owing to weakness or inability, recovers, at such relief, strength or ability enough to commit wrong to other jivas. So it often happens that such apparently kind services not only bring harm to the recipient but cause indirect injuries to others. This is one aspect of the thing. Let us turn to the other. As a gardener prunes a growing tree, allowing its root to grow freely and easily, as a physician treats a patient leaving the prime-disease undisturbed, so this sort of temporary kindness stops, no doubt, the growth of the present inconveniences for a while but in no way uproots the cause whence all these afflictions arise. This cause has been identified with the enslaved condition of jivas. So real and permanent kindness consist in bringing before the enslaved jivas a true and vivid picture of their natural, free and blissful existence and reinstating them in their true position.Thus real kindness is applicable to the real jiva and apparent kindness to the apparent jiva.

*As an instrument, a servant, a friend, parents and a consort. uproots the cause whence all these afflictions arise. This cause has been identified with the enslaved condition of jivas. So real and permanent kindness consists in bringing before the enslaved jivas a true and vivid picture of their natural, free and blissful existence and reinstating them in their true position. Thus real kindness is applicable to the real jiva and apparent kindness to the apparent jiva.

[theist]

More great stuff krsna. Keep 'em comin'.

[Alex J]

Dear Kulapavana Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your posts. I haven't read Shipwreck of a Generation. I got my Berger quotes from an article entitled "Soviet socialist realizm and the soviet censorship system", by Martin Dewhirst, who quotes from Berger's book.

Dewhirst refers to Berger as a Polish Communist, and I guess I just took that and went with it, without doing much other research about Joseph Berger. Hare Krsna. Your servant, Alex