Marginal energy becomes internal energy

[Guruvani]

To explore the concept that the marginal jiva becomes internal potency with the perfection of devotional service, I am presenting this verse for consideration.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.34

 

yady eṣoparatā devī

māyā vaiśāradī matiḥ

sampanna eveti vidur

mahimni sve mahīyate

 

SYNONYMS

yadi — if, however; eṣā — they; uparatā — subsided; devī māyā — illusory energy; vaiśāradī — full of knowledge; matiḥ — enlightenment; sampannaḥ — enriched with; eva — certainly; iti — thus; viduḥ — being cognizant of; mahimni — in the glories; sve — of the self; mahīyate — being situated in.

 

 

TRANSLATION

If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory.

 

 

PURPORT

Because the Lord is the absolute Transcendence, all of His forms, names, pastimes, attributes, associates and energies are identical with Him. His transcendental energy acts according to His omnipotency. The same energy acts as His external, internal and marginal energies, and by His omnipotency He can perform anything and everything through the agency of any of the above energies. He can turn the external energy into internal by His will. Therefore by His grace the external energy, which is employed in illusioning those living beings who want to have it, subsides by the will of the Lord in terms of repentance and penance for the conditioned soul. And the very same energy then acts to help the purified living being make progress on the path of self-realization. The example of electrical energy is very appropriate in this connection. The expert electrician can utilize the electrical energy for both heating and cooling by adjustment only. Similarly, the external energy, which now bewilders the living being into continuation of birth and death, is turned into internal potency by the will of the Lord to lead the living being to eternal life. When a living being is thus graced by the Lord, he is placed in his proper constitutional position to enjoy eternal spiritual life.

 

 

So, if even the external energy which is inferior to the marginal potency can become transformed into internal potency by the will of Krishna, then how can anyone say that the marginal jiva cannot also be transformed into internal potency by the will of Krishna?

 

The idea that marginal potency forever remains marginal potency cannot hold true because in the spiritual world there is no marginal plane.

 

The marginal plane and the marginal jivas are situated between the spiritual and material worlds.

 

As such, the marginal jivas cannot enter the spiritual world unless and until he has been transformed into internal energy of Krishna.

[Sarva gattah]

Hari Bol Guruvani!! G'day mate , how are ya? According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion

 

Question : - What is the meaning of marginal?

 

Answer: - Subsidiary, supplementary, secondary (in relation to Krishna) minor, insignificant, accompanying (as individual living entities), subordinate, inferior, lower, lesser, derived, unoriginal (because Krishna is the original)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, and the material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety, the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prbhupada - "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies--internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prbhupada - "The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead." Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prbhupada - "Vedanta-sutra is compiled by Vyasadeva for the benefit of all living entities. It is through Vedanta-sutra that the philosophy of bhakti-yoga can be understood. Unfortunately, the Mayavadi commentary, Sariraka-bhasya, has practically defeated the purpose of Vedanta-sutra. In the Mayavadi commentary, the spiritual, transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been denied, and the Supreme Brahman has been dragged down to the level of the individual Brahman, the living entity. Both the Supreme Brahman and the individual Brahman have been denied spiritual form and individuality, although it is clearly stated that the Supreme Lord is the one supreme living entity and the other living entities are the many subordinate living entities”. ". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada

 

Srila Prbhupada – “Thus reading the Mayavadi commentaries on Vedanta-sutra is always dangerous. The chief danger is that through these commentaries one may come to consider the living entity to be equal to the Supreme Lord. It is easy for a conditioned living entity to be falsely directed in this way, and once he is so directed he can never come to his actual position or enjoy his eternal activity in bhakti yoga. In other words, the Mayavadi philosophy has rendered the greatest disservice to humanity by promoting the impersonal view of the Supreme Lord. Thus Mayavadi philosophers deprive human society of the real message of Vedanta-sutra". Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the secondary nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (individual Brahman) that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee acting within their full potential as devotees of Krishna in their particular active rasa relationship in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

There is a paradox her however, and that is technically all the marginal living entities (100%) of all of Krishna's subsidiary potency are perpetually original represented by their fully Krishna Conscious bodily identity (nitya-siddha) in Goloka however, it is 25% of them who are the ones actually dreaming that they are in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

In other words some marginal living entities are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as their bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projection that relies on the ethereal and biological bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

The eternal, secondary, inferior dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness is the jiva-tattva and can also be the jiva-tatastha and about 170 other jiva definitions however, they are all the extended secondary consciousness of their nitya-siddha body when one chooses to use their free will and ignore Krishna and their own perpetual nitya-siddha body.

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘In the present status of our life we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position’ Introduction to Bhagavad Gita as it is

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Only outside the personal perpetual pastimes of Krishna, Vishnu etc in the imperishable Goloka and Vaikuntha's can the following description be correct. This is shown above as the dormant border line condition of the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness that can enter a dormant state of individual consciousness in between the dark perishable cloud that is the creation of Maha-Vishnu, and the permanant devotionally active Vaikuntha's that is called tatastha – ‘The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land’.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

There are two aspects of Krishna’s wonderful creation, one imperishable without time and decay (Goloka and Vaikuntha established perpetually in the Spiritual Sky or the Personal feature of the Brahmajyoti), while the other is perishable and temporary (the mahat-tattva and Impersonal portion of the Spiritual sky call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti).

 

Therefore it can be said that the marginal living also entity has two characteristics to its existence, the first and foremost is their perpetual nitya-siddha bodily identity established within eternal time in Goloka, the second is their nitya-baddha consciousness that can only exist outside Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "When a living being is thus graced by the Lord, he is placed in his proper constitutional position to enjoy eternal spiritual life" .Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.34

 

Srila Prabhupada - "we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on". Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, Sunday, December 24, 1967

 

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion or ignorance

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna" Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: "Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance." This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he's in the dreamland" Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change.

All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

 

In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

 

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy. Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on". Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, Sunday, December 24, 1967

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power. 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

[Kulapavana]

 

So, if even the external energy which is inferior to the marginal potency can become transformed into internal potency by the will of Krishna, then how can anyone say that the marginal jiva cannot also be transformed into internal potency by the will of Krishna?

 

 

My understanding is that living entities are considered marginal (tatastha)energy precisely because such change of status is possible (from marginal to internal). It can happen when this marginal energy develops the desires (rasa) and qualities characteristic for the internal potency.

[Sarva gattah]

 

My understanding is that living entities are considered marginal (tatastha)energy precisely because such change of status is possible (from marginal to internal). It can happen when this marginal energy develops the desires (rasa) and qualities characteristic for the internal potency.

 

We are always marginal regardless of being in Goloka or 'dreaming" we are in the mahat-tattva or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.

 

Srila Prbhupada - "The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead." Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

We are always marginal regardless of being in Goloka or 'dreaming" we are in the mahat-tattva or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.

 

Srila Prbhupada - "The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead." Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

You can't read?

 

If Krishna can turn external material energy into internal potency then he can certainly turn the superior marginal energy into internal energy.

 

 

The same energy acts as His external, internal and marginal energies, and by His omnipotency He can perform anything and everything through the agency of any of the above energies. He can turn the external energy into internal by His will.

It is all the same energy of Krishna.

It is only internal, external or marginal depending on how and where it is employed.

 

There is NO marginal energy in Goloka.

 

The only marginal energy is manifested at the marginal plane between the material and spiritual worlds.

 

When the jiva enters Goloka he is no longer marginal.

 

The jiva is only marginal when he is between the external and spiritual potencies.

 

With the blessings of hladini shakti which is acquired through cultivating devotional service then the jiva become spiritualized into the internal potency of Krishna.

 

Only someone who does not understand shastric conclusions would ever say something as ridiculous as the associates of Krishna in Goloka are marginal energy.

 

There is no margin in Goloka and NO marginal energy at all.

 

Not even one spark of marginal energy exists in Goloka - the most internal of all internal realms.

[theist]

Good luck sarvah but I gotta say, here we go again.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Good luck sarvah but I gotta say, here we go again.

 

Two questions?.

1.Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon?

2.And has the marginal living entity a twofold reality, one as a ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is eternal (nitya-siddha) and the other a dreaming secondary consciousness called jiva tatastha, jiva tattva, jiva s’akti etc (nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness) that is also eternal, yet can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form until provided a vessel from within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation by Maha-Vishnu, His expansions and demigod represenatives?

No offence Guruvani prabhu, but in all humility your ‘cut and paste’ presentation of shastra can only be realized by personal realizations as well and not only book knowledge; could it be possible that some devotees have those realizations that can be explained in a simple way in English that does not deviate from Srila Prabhupada's personal intermit teachings?

Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purly based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead in this age of Kali-yuga – from whence we originally came from.

In this corrupt day and age it is hard for us judge how <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear aspiring devotees? Is it based on our external appearance and show, or is it based on being helplessly and unconditionally attached to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> from within our heart? Very few can claim to be so selflessly advanced, except the genuine book distributors, pujaris, pot washers etc who are like the humble cobbler in the story of the 'Brahmana and the cobbler' All they know is that book distribution brings the highest pleasure to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, they are so absorbed in service that they are already nitya-siddha, already aware of their svarupa body in Goloka.

In other words, just because we may not understand that technically we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and presently WE are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s creation. Just because other Vaishnava’s up the road from Mayapur also cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we all have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti?

Many devotees firmly believe that their claims of shastric interpretations explaining the jiva-s’akti, jiva tatastha, jiva-tattva, jiva maya etc, etc (170 terminologies of the word jiva) are ONLY referring to our secondary or lower conditioned state of consciousness outside the Personal Devotional Active Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, where we are perpetually serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as our genuine nitya-siddha bodily identity. Such a svarupa personality can never perish and therefore has no beginning or end. This is because our genuine perpetual ‘raza’ relationships serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> are always going on in Goloka, even if we choose to consciously drift off into some self indulgent dream.

The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

What is that state of secondary consciousness called?

This secondary conscious state is called the nitya-baddha consciousness that can ONLY actively take shelter temporarily transmigrating through billions of ethereal and biological containments within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

This secondary conscious state can further take shelter temporarily in an inactive state of individual consciousness within the Impersonal Brahman aspect of the Spiritual Sky that separates the perpetual energetic (active) IMPERISHABLE Vaikuntha’s from transitory PERSISHABLE energetic (active) maha-tattva (material creation)

In between the active ‘endless’ Vaikunthas and the ‘actively continuously ending’ mahat-tattva, is a dormant state of inactive individual consciousness that is the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti characteristic of the eternal Spiritual Sky.

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion

Question : - What is the meaning of marginal?

Answer: - Subsidiary, supplementary, secondary (in relation to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>) minor, insignificant, accompanying (as individual living entities), subordinate, inferior, lower, lesser, derived, unoriginal (because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the original)

Therefore it can be said that the marginal living also entity has two characteristics to its existence, the first and foremost is their perpetual nitya-siddha bodily identity established within eternal time in Goloka, the second is their nitya-baddha consciousness that can only exist outside Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada - "When a living being is thus graced by the Lord, he is placed in his proper constitutional position to enjoy eternal spiritual life" .Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.34

Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, <st1:date Month="12" Day="24" Year="1967">Sunday, December 24, 1967</st1:date>

[Guruvani]

 

No offence Guruvani prabhu, but in all humility your ‘cut and paste’ presentation of shastra can only be realized by personal realizations as well and not only book knowledge; could it be possible that some devotees have those realizations that can be explained in a simple way in English that does not deviate from Srila Prabhupada's personal intermit teachings? <st1:date month="12" day="24" year="1967"></st1:date>

 

One of these days, if you ever get around to reading the shastra, you will find out that marginal potency does not exist in Goloka.

 

You really don't know what you are talking about, although you present your babblings as if they are somehow shastric siddhanta.

 

There is no marginal energy in Goloka.

The marginal energy is manifested in the Viraja between the material and spiritual worlds.

 

When a jiva become a liberated associate of Krishna he is no longer a marginal jiva. At that point he becomes manifested in Goloka via sandhini and hladini shakti - not tatastha shakti.

 

If you started reading the books of Srila Prabhupada you could figure that out.

But, since you refuse to do that and simply resort to some old letters to some neophyte disciples you will always remain on the same platform as the neophytes whose letters you have been reading as if those letters are superior to shastra.

 

This is what ISKCON breeds.

A class of shastric dropouts who use old letters of Srila Prabhupada instead of his books to establish the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

It's quite laughable that some devotees use the library of letters to try and understand the Gaudiya philosophy and ignore the books as if they are somehow lower than the letters.

[sevabhakta]

Hari Bol

 

Sounds to me like some wishful thinking that one will just wake up one day and find that they were dreaming their rascaldom in the material world and be instantly and fully immersed in loving exchanges with Sri Krsna.

 

Without having to purify oneself of the reason why they were in the material dream in the first place.

 

I hate to, but have to break it to these folks that the Dream analogy is just that. A very good approximation of the situation to give us neophytes an idea of what is going on.

 

But attaining Krsna prema is certainly not as easy as what you did when you woke from your dreams last night and got out of bed this morning.

 

This material world is so expertly manifested that it is very real, and our conditioning is very real, and it takes alot of effort to purify ourselves and transfer our desires from sense objects to Krsna seva.

 

Once we get serious about regulative Vaidhi sadhana and forget about the crow and tal fruit discussions, Maybe we can say we are beginning to wake up from the nightmare of the material "dream", and can even sense the pressure of our bed beneath our back and hear the far off call of the morning rooster.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

A realization of what the mahat-tattva is

 

 

The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu offers the marginal living entity the facility to experience their own desires of splendour without Krishna, The mahat-tattva is made up of dead matter and living matter. The living matter or bodily containers are generated by the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva s'akti that has simultaneously possessed and created an ethereal vessel to begin their journey within the mahat-tattva that can later expand to a biological vessel. In this way all dead matter originates from the presents of life within the mahat-tattva

 

The ethereal container that are possessed by the nitya-baddha consciousness can further manifest a grosser biological covering, generated by consciousness however, behind the dreams of marginal living entity is the real creator and facilitator that gives bodily form and surroundings to those dreams.

In other words the nitya-baddha consciousness does not create anything because everything is being provided by Maha-Vishnu.

The nitya-baddha consciousness is simply the mistaken bodiless dreams of the marginal living entity when they use their free will to choose to forget their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body that is endless, imperishable and free of the influences of mundane (mahat-tattva and Impersonal Brahman consciousness) time and space.

In this way all marginal living entities (not to be confused with expansions and the billions of different bodily personalities that are Krishna in different moods) have the ability to activate their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness (or jiva-tattva) when they are not desiring to serve and please Krishna selflessly in the personal active devotionally Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha’s. Such ‘non-Krishna conscious dreams’ cannot exist in Goloka and are therefore provided imperishable bodily forms outside the gates of Vaikuntha within the mahat-tattva.

The ethereal and biological vessels they are been provided with. are also created by their dreams yet given facility to experience by Maha-Vishnu. These body forms in the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu, that imprison the nitya-baddha consciousness, are also a component mahat-tattva.

In this way the fulfilment of non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha dreams of the marginal living entity is only possible by the arrangement of Maha-Vishnu who provides the vessel that the nitya-baddha consciousness thinks they are creating.

The mahat-tattva or material creation is therefore the perishable Planets, Moons Suns, Solar systems, Galaxies, innumerable universes as well as the 8,400,0000 species of ethereal and biological vessels under the phenomenon of past, present and future.

All bodily vessels are part and parcel of the mahat-tattva that is devoid of life until life comes from the Impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti. (Those who had previously found a false liberation from the mahat-tattva by becoming a dormant or dreamless dream state as part of the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) or those who leave Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in their dreams (not as their perpetual identity or body) and have such dreams be given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu.

 

[sevabhakta]

"or those who leave Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in their dreams (not as their perpetual identity or body) and have such dreams be given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu."

 

You have no proof that anyone who is participating in Sri Radha and Krsna's pasttimes in Goloka Vrndavana comes to the dreamlike mahat-tattva in anything less than their siddha-swarupa.

 

Guruvani already proved, using Sastra, that Lord Krsna's 3 potencies are able to transmute into one another interchangeably, specifically that marginal sakti may become cit-sakti and still retain free-will, yet will NEVER exercise that free will to forget KRSNA after falling irrevocably in love with him. Even Jaya and Vijaya are not to be considered inhabiting "ethereal biological vehicles" housing their "secondary consciousness".

 

You cannot prove such a theory by Sastra.

 

You only back up your theory by citing broad proclamations by Srila Prabhupada from personal letters to wild-eyed neophytes, proclamations which can be interpreted in various ways when the rule of acintya bedhabheda tattva is applied.

 

It would be a shame if you continued your one sided "lecture" in this manner. But free will is king, you decide. I wish you well in your decisions. Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah]

 

"or those who leave Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in their dreams (not as their perpetual identity or body) and have such dreams be given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu."

 

You have no proof that anyone who is participating in Sri Radha and Krsna's pasttimes in Goloka Vrndavana comes to the dreamlike mahat-tattva in anything less than their siddha-swarupa.

 

Guruvani already proved, using Sastra, that Lord Krsna's 3 potencies are able to transmute into one another interchangeably, specifically that marginal sakti may become cit-sakti and still retain free-will, yet will NEVER exercise that free will to forget KRSNA after falling irrevocably in love with him. Even Jaya and Vijaya are not to be considered inhabiting "ethereal biological vehicles" housing their "secondary consciousness".

 

You cannot prove such a theory by Sastra.

 

You only back up your theory by citing broad proclamations by Srila Prabhupada from personal letters to wild-eyed neophytes, proclamations which can be interpreted in various ways when the rule of acintya bedhabheda tattva is applied.

 

It would be a shame if you continued your one sided "lecture" in this manner. But free will is king, you decide. I wish you well in your decisions. Hare Krsna

 

NONSENSE!!

 

Just because you and Guruvani cannot understand that technically we are always with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and presently WE are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees can clearly understand this and have actually realized this truth of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s creation. Just because other Vaishnava’s up the road from Mayapur also cannot understand this, you think no-one can understand this.. Why believe their nonsense misconceptions that we all have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti? Srila Prabhupada has told us -

 

:Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

 

 

What is time? What is really going on in the mahat-tattva or material creation?

 

 

 

The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

While in the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, also can becalled the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets their superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually transformed and dissipated so that the marginal living entities superior Krishna Conscious self is all that exists.

 

When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.

 

Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.

 

In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

 

Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Our original constitutional position was as a spirit spark in the glance of Maha-Vishnu. As such, the living entity is by nature part and parcel of Krishna and eternally a servant of the supreme controller.

 

It is the most basic and fundamental of all the rasas; shanta-rasa.

 

Mahaprabhu made it clear that upon attaining shanta-rasa one realizes his constitutional position.

 

If by the blessings of Krishna's devotees you get the bhakta-lata-bija, then you can develop beyond that impersonal shanta-rasa with a higher rasa in an intimate relationship with Krishna that we have never had before.

 

Nobody is with Krishna in Goloka and dreaming that he is a worm in stool in the material world.

 

That is YOUR fabricated, concocted and misconceived fairytale that you are trying to push off as Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

It is not!

[Kulapavana]

 

Just because you and Guruvani cannot understand that technically we are always with ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and presently WE are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees can clearly understand this and have actually realized this truth of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s creation.

 

What happened to Jaya and Vijaya? Did they go to sleep at the gates of Vaikuntha? No, they FELL DOWN to the material world, i.e. they transferred to the very real material world.

 

When the demon is killed by Krsna, his soul visibly issues out of thei body and merges into the EFFULGENCE of the Lord. WHAT was the brilliant spark that came out of Sisupala's body when he was killed by Krsna? His illusory sleeper consciousness?

 

Quit creating feeble speculations and stick to the authorized Vaishnava siddhanta. This world is real and we (the spirit souls) are most certainly present in it.

[suchandra]

 

What happened to Jaya and Vijaya? Did they go to sleep at the gates of Vaikuntha? No, they FELL DOWN to the material world, i.e. they transferred to the very real material world.

 

When the demon is killed by Krsna, his soul visibly issues out of thei body and merges into the EFFULGENCE of the Lord. WHAT was the brilliant spark that came out of Sisupala's body when he was killed by Krsna? His illusory sleeper consciousness?

 

Quit creating feeble speculations and stick to the authorized Vaishnava siddhanta. This world is real and we (the spirit souls) are most certainly present in it.

 

What might be sometimes forgotten is that, how does Krishna see this material world and our conditioned situation from His point of view?

We always tend to see things from our angle of vision, but isnt it we use our material eyes and our material brain which tell us that we are far away from the spiritual world. Krishna who is present in even each and every atom, why should we think that He sees things as we are? At least it should be clear that for Krishna there's no such thing as time and space. Krishna is completely beyond time and space.

 

anadir adir govinda

sarva karana-karanam

 

He is anadih, without beginning. Krishna is situated beyond the limitations of time and space. Yet he is also adih, the source of everything. In the Vedanta-sutras, the absolute truth, Brahman, is defined as janmadyasya yathah - "From whom everything emanates." In the Gita Krishna also confirms this as follows:

 

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

 

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

[sevabhakta]

 

What might be sometimes forgotten is that, how does Krishna see this material world and our conditioned situation from His point of view?

We always tend to see things from our angle of vision, but isnt it we use our material eyes and our material brain which tell us that we are far away from the spiritual world. Krishna who is present in even each and every atom, why should we think that He sees things as we are? At least it should be clear that for Krishna there's no such thing as time and space. Krishna is completely beyond time and space.

 

anadir adir govinda

sarva karana-karanam

 

He is anadih, without beginning. Krishna is situated beyond the limitations of time and space. Yet he is also adih, the source of everything. In the Vedanta-sutras, the absolute truth, Brahman, is defined as janmadyasya yathah - "From whom everything emanates." In the Gita Krishna also confirms this as follows:

 

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

 

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

 

It seems to me that we are told of how Krsna and the liberated Acharya see our condition in order to wake us up to the theory of who we are and where we are.

 

That theory is something our conditioned mind can grasp and we get a glimpse of our transcendental identity. That glimpse is the real thing, the theory we meditate on is still just that for us.

 

The theory has no bearing on the reality that we are present here and still conditioned.

 

It has no bearing on the process we must engage in to purify ourselves of the very real status of where we place our conscious attention day in and day out.

 

As well, as has been shown, the Acharya, being a master wordsmith, is able to use terms which are broadly defined in order to start us meditating on the truth of our constitutional position, which has completely escaped us til we met him by grace.

 

So we interpret his parable in a way that keeps us enlivened.

 

For some that means they MUST believe they are actually already a gopa or gopi and just having a bad dream.

 

They MUST constantly imagine in their material mind what they are doing with Krsna each day, and call it Raganuga bhakti.

 

They MUST attempt to stifle any contradictory understanding, such as that we are all almost terminally conditioned, struggling with rajas and tamas, and only glimpse the mode of goodness on a good day. For such an understanding will ruin what inspires them to keep trying to execute devotional service.

 

However, a word to the unwise is to keep dear to you the conception which fits you best but do not preach against what conception others find inspiring, for they may just turn around and unequivocally shatter your conception using Sastra, and leave you naked and squirming in your ignorance. Unless you are ready for that.

 

Actually to one who claims to be aspiring for spiritual advancement, that state should be welcomed, but that is the difference between one who sees what a tenuous and terrible state they are really in and one who thinks they are already enlightened and have no work to do.

 

Hare Krsna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What a delightful harmonization!!

 

Gaura-Hari!!

 

 

It seems to me that we are told of how Krsna and the liberated Acharya see our condition in order to wake us up to the theory of who we are and where we are.

 

That theory is something our conditioned mind can grasp and we get a glimpse of our transcendental identity. That glimpse is the real thing, the theory we meditate on is still just that for us.

 

The theory has no bearing on the reality that we are present here and still conditioned.

 

It has no bearing on the process we must engage in to purify ourselves of the very real status of where we place our conscious attention day in and day out.

 

As well, as has been shown, the Acharya, being a master wordsmith, is able to use terms which are broadly defined in order to start us meditating on the truth of our constitutional position, which has completely escaped us til we met him by grace.

 

So we interpret his parable in a way that keeps us enlivened.

 

For some that means they MUST believe they are actually already a gopa or gopi and just having a bad dream.

 

They MUST constantly imagine in their material mind what they are doing with Krsna each day, and call it Raganuga bhakti.

 

They MUST attempt to stifle any contradictory understanding, such as that we are all almost terminally conditioned, struggling with rajas and tamas, and only glimpse the mode of goodness on a good day. For such an understanding will ruin what inspires them to keep trying to execute devotional service.

 

However, a word to the unwise is to keep dear to you the conception which fits you best but do not preach against what conception others find inspiring, for they may just turn around and unequivocally shatter your conception using Sastra, and leave you naked and squirming in your ignorance. Unless you are ready for that.

 

Actually to one who claims to be aspiring for spiritual advancement, that state should be welcomed, but that is the difference between one who sees what a tenuous and terrible state they are really in and one who thinks they are already enlightened and have no work to do.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

They MUST constantly imagine in their material mind what they are doing with Krsna each day, and call it Raganuga bhakti.

 

Hare Krsna

If this is true, then that is also part of their misconception, because raganuga-bhakti is not imagining that we are in Goloka serving Krishna but raganuga-sadhana is remembering as actual eternal servant of Krishna in Goloka and considering that parshada of Krishna to be the role model of one's aspiration.

 

So, it appears that the fall-from-goloka fairytale also implies a form of sahajiya mentality of thinking one's self to be an eternal associate of Krishna in Vrindavan.

Such thinking is sahajiya mentality.

 

It's offensive to think that one is an eternal associate of Krishna.

[sevabhakta]

Whether one imagines one is actually a ragatmika eternal associate, or imagines they are engaged in Raganuga following of an eternal associate, it is sahajya illusion none the less. Either way, it is much easier, in the short term, than accepting who one really is in reality right now. Worm in stool comes to mind.

 

The fairy tale opens up all the possibilities for a fertile mind, except the truth. Of course this is actually part of the brilliance of Srila Prabhupada. He was so merciful he played perfectly to his audience to engage them in chanting and spreading around his books.

 

They will purify their conceptions with time.

[Guruvani]

 

Whether one imagines one is actually a ragatmika eternal associate, or imagines they are engaged in Raganuga following of an eternal associate, it is sahajya illusion none the less. Either way, it is much easier, in the short term, than accepting who one really is in reality right now. Worm in stool comes to mind.

 

The fairy tale opens up all the possibilities for a fertile mind, except the truth. Of course this is actually part of the brilliance of Srila Prabhupada. He was so merciful he played perfectly to his audience to engage them in chanting and spreading around his books.

 

They will purify their conceptions with time.

Mahaprabhu instructs Sanatan Goswami about how a devotee should cultivate devotional service.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.160

 

kṛṣṇaḿ smaran janaḿ cāsya

preṣṭhaḿ nija-samīhitam

tat-tat-kathā-rataś cāsau

kuryād vāsaḿ vraje sadā

 

SYNONYMS

kṛṣṇam — Lord Kṛṣṇa; smaran — thinking of; janam — a devotee; ca — and; asya — of His; preṣṭham — very dear; nija-samīhitam — chosen by oneself; tat-tat-kathā — to those respective topics; rataḥ — attached; ca — and; asau — that; kuryāt — should do; vāsam — living; vraje — in Vṛndāvana; sadā — always.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"'The devotee should always think of Kṛṣṇa within himself and should choose a very dear devotee who is a servitor of Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana. One should constantly engage in topics about that servitor and his loving relationship with Kṛṣṇa, and one should live in Vṛndāvana. If one is physically unable to go to Vṛndāvana, he should mentally live there.'

 

 

PURPORT

This verse is also found in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.294).

 

So, there is nothing sahajiya about remembering a favorite parshada of Krishna and looking up to that parshada as one's role model in Vrindavan lila.

 

What is sahajiya is when a sadhaka just gets stuck in vaidhi-bhakti rules and regulations and never develops an attraction for a particular servant of Krishna.

 

Ultimately, Krishna consciousness cannot be divorced from ragunuga bhakti.

Without raganuga bhakti all one has is some very remote and vague idea about devotional service.

 

Devotional service performed without remembering such an eternal associate of Krishna and aspiring to serve in that mood is just simple impersonal vaidhi-bhakti that will never take one to Vrindavan.

[sevabhakta]

 

Mahaprabhu instructs Sanatan Goswami about how a devotee should cultivate devotional service.

 

 

So, there is nothing sahajiya about remembering a favorite parshada of Krishna and looking up to that parshada as one's role model in Vrindavan lila.

 

What is sahajiya is when a sadhaka just gets stuck in vaidhi-bhakti rules and regulations and never develops an attraction for a particular servant of Krishna.

 

Ultimately, Krishna consciousness cannot be divorced from ragunuga bhakti.

Without raganuga bhakti all one has is some very remote and vague idea about devotional service.

 

Devotional service performed without remembering such an eternal associate of Krishna and aspiring to serve in that mood is just simple impersonal vaidhi-bhakti that will never take one to Vrindavan.

 

Problem is a sahajya, who is by definition not approaching the discipline seriously, but cheaply, is using his Kama-manas conditioned mind to imagine who a parishad is, and what it would be like to follow in their footsteps.

 

Since they had ulterior motive, they may read about parishads, and the process of raganuga sadhana, and even expound upon it, yet the TRUTH of it eludes them, no matter how many regs they can muster up to follow.

 

Adi 9.53 purport:

"But one who joins with an ulterior purpose, to get material benefit or personal gratification, will never be able to grasp the philosophy of this movement."

 

I think now you know that the type of imagination I was referring to was not transcendental TV, but material motivated daydreaming.

 

Hari Bol

[Guruvani]

 

the TRUTH of it eludes them, no matter how many regs they can muster up to follow.

Hari Bol

So, that is why the raganuga bhaktas are not always found to be strictly following the regulative principles.

 

Chapter 16: Spontaneous Devotion Further Described

 

 

These rāgānugā devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yaśodā, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously.

If a natural attraction is there for a particular parshada of Krishna then the raganuga bhakti has already blossomed and there is no reason to deny that or artifically repress something that should be embraced and cultivated as the key to Vrindavan Dhama.

 

Vaidhi bhakti cannot take one to Goloka.

 

If after 40 years of hearing and chanting a devotee hasn't found a role model in Vrindavan, then what has he got to show for 40 years of practice?

Generic sadhana bhakti?

 

[KrishnaCaitanya dasa]

 

 

 

Lord Caitanya Preached Pure Devotional Service

 

By Sri Nandanandana das (ACBSP)

Shambhuddhi dasa’s article, Lord Caitanya on the Constitutional Position of the Soul, is misleading. I don’t know if he is an impersonalist but that is the idea that he conveys:

“In conclusion, Lord Caitanya does not teach that the constitutional position of the soul is anything more than impersonal realization of Lord Krishna in his impersonal Brahman effulgence.”

That is Shambhuddhi’s own conclusion, that is not what Srila Prabhupada explains neither what Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja is saying in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, nor the conclusion of the acaryas.

His own words are contradictory, “Lord Caitanya explains to Rupa Goswami that shanta-rasa does not possess even the smallest of intimacy with Lord Krishna and that the impersonal Brahman and the Paramatma are prominent.”

Paramatma realization is not impersonal realization:

“Real yogis meditate upon the transcendental form of the Lord as He stands on the whorl of the lotus of their hearts, the jewellike nails of His lotus feet glittering.”-SB.4.8.50.

And there are many other quotes in the sastras in this regard.

This constitutional position is explained by Lord Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita (18.54). The brahma-bhuta stage is the realization of aham bhramasmi, “I am not this matter, I am spirit soul, I am of the nature of Brahman”. At this stage is when real bhakti begins. The Vaisnava’s realization is that if he is brahman then his nature is to be engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord. To be engaged in activities of the nature of Brahman, not in material activities. This is also the explanation of the famous Tat tvam asi sutra. The Vaisnavas acaryas had explained it to mean, “You are of the same nature of the Supreme therefore your nature is to be engaged in the spiritual activities of devotional service to the Lord.” Or it also means, “You are His”. You belong to the Supreme Lord and therefore you have an eternal relationship of service to Him.

 

 

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

 

 

 

na socati na kaksati

 

 

 

samah sarvesu bhutesu

 

 

 

mad-bhaktin labhate param

 

“One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.”

PURPORT

To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhuta, oneness with the Absolute… This is the brahma-bhuta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one’s individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents’ teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled… Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age.-Bg.18.54.

Lord Caitanya Himself says:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya——krisnera ‘nitya-dasa’

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>”. Not the impersonal position! This quality of service to the Lord is the basic ingredient.

Next is the further realization:

Gopi-bhartur pada-kamalayor dasa-dasa-dasa-dasanudasa. To serve Sri Krishna who is the Lord of the gopis, always accompany by Srimati Radharani. But one cannot serve Him directly, but rather thru the servant of the servant of the servant of the gopis. Our link to this chain of servants of the Lord is our spiritual master, and we cannot give him up as the mayavadis do.

This is the progression on this chapter of Sri Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya 19, about shanta rasa and the other mellows:

“When one is fully attached to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s lotus feet, one attains the samata stage. The word ‘samata’ is derived from the word ‘sama’; therefore santa-rasa, the position of neutrality, means being fully attached to the lotus feet of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. This is the verdict from the mouth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. This state is called self-realization.-Text 211.

“‘These are the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: “When one’s intelligence is fully attached to My lotus feet but one does not render practical service, one has attained the stage called santa-rati, or sama.” Without santa-rati, attachment to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is very difficult to achieve.’-Text 212.

“‘The word “sama” or “santa-rasa” indicates that one is attached to the lotus feet of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. “Dama” means controlling the senses and not being deviated from the Lord’s service. Endurance of unhappiness is “titiksa,” and “dhriti” means controlling the tongue and the genitals.’-Text 213.

“Giving up all desires not connected with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the business of one who is in santa-rasa. Only a devotee of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be situated on that platform. He is thus called a santa-rasa-bhakta.- Text214.

[KrishnaCaitanya dasa]

“When a devotee is situated on the platform of santa-rasa, he desires neither elevation to the heavenly planets nor liberation. These are the results of karma and jñana, and the devotee considers them no better than hell. A person situated on the santa-rasa platform manifests the two transcendental qualities of detachment from all material desires and full attachment to Krishna.-Text 215.

These are the two qualities of shanta rasa present in all the other mellows as Srila Prabhupada explains in text 217. The qualities of shanta rasa and bhrama-bhuta stage explained in Bhagavad-gita 18.54 are the same. Na socati na kaksati, “He never laments nor desires to have anything”; he has no material aspirations. In text 214 Srila Prabhupada explains, “When one is not agitated or disturbed, he can immediately realize his relationship with ffice:smarttags" />“This is the brahma-bhuta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one’s individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents’ teeth.”

“‘A person who is devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, is not afraid of anything. Elevation to the heavenly kingdom, condemnation to hell and liberation from material bondage all appear the same to a devotee.’-Text 216.

“These two qualities of the santa stage spread through the lives of all devotees. They are like the quality of sound in the sky. Sound vibration is found in all material elements.-Text 217.

“It is the nature of santa-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramatma is prominent.-Text 218.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the santa-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramatma). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. [One must read Srila Prabhupada’s puport to text 228 to gain further understanding].

“On the platform of santa-rasa, one realizes only his constitutional position. But when one is raised to the platform of dasya-rasa, he better understands the full opulence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.-Text 219.

“On the dasya-rasa platform, knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is revealed with awe and veneration. By rendering service unto Lord Krishna, the devotee in dasya-rasa gives constant happiness to the Lord.-Text 220.

“The qualities of santa-rasa are also present in dasya-rasa, but service is added. Thus the dasya-rasa platform contains the qualities of both santa-rasa and dasya-rasa.-Text 221.

“The qualities of santa-rasa and the service of dasya-rasa are both present on the platform of sakhya-rasa. On the platform of fraternity, the qualities of dasya-rasa are mixed with the confidence of fraternity instead of awe and veneration.-Text 222.

“On the sakhya-rasa platform, the devotee sometimes offers the Lord service and sometimes makes In]

<FONT size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> serve him in exchange. In their mock fighting, the cowherd boys would sometimes climb on <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s shoulders, and sometimes they would make <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> climb on their shoulders.-Text 223.

“Awe and veneration are absent on the platform of fraternity, since this rasa is predominated by service imbued with confidentiality. Therefore sakhya-rasa is characterized by the qualities of three rasas.-Texts 224.

“On the platform of sakhya-rasa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kåñëa is controlled by the devotees who are intimate with Him and think themselves equal to Him.-Text 225.

“On the platform of parental love, the qualities of santa-rasa, dasya-rasa and sakhya-rasa are transformed into a form of service called maintenance.-Text 226.

“The essence of fraternal love is intimacy devoid of the formality and veneration found in dasya-rasa. Due to a greater sense of intimacy, the devotee functioning in parental love chastises and rebukes the Lord in an ordinary way.-Text 227.

“On the platform of parental love, the devotee considers himself the Lord’s maintainer. Thus the Lord is the object of maintenance, like a son, and therefore this mellow is full of the qualities of four rasas—santa-rasa, dasya-rasa, fraternity and parental love. This is more transcendental nectar.

<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. A santa-rasa devotee is therefore always fixed in realization. This instruction was given by the Lord Himself to Uddhava. The beginning of pure devotional service is called anyabhilasita-sunya. When one is situated on the platform of neutrality, he is freed from the material platform and fully situated in spiritual life”.

<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as one’s only shelter and friend is absent in santa-rasa because one accepts <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as the impersonal Parambrahma or localized Paramatma. This understanding is based on the speculative knowledge of the jñani. However, when this knowledge is further developed, one is convinced that the Paramatma, the Supreme Lord, is the master and that the living entity is His eternal servant. One then attains the platform of dasya-rasa. In dasya-rasa the Lord is accepted with awe and veneration. Thus the active service that is absent in santa-rasa becomes prominent in dasya-rasa. In other words, in dasya-rasa the qualities of santa-rasa are present, and service also becomes predominantly visible. Similarly, when this same rasa is developed into fraternity (sakhya-rasa), a friendly intimacy is added. There is no awe or veneration in sakhya-rasa. Therefore sakhya-rasa is invested with the qualities of three rasas—santa, däsya and sakhya. Similarly, on the platform of parental love, the qualities of çänta-rasa, dasya-rasa and sakhya-rasa are fully developed in another form—the sense of maintaining the Lord. Therefore on the platform of parental love there exists a combination of the qualities of four transcendental mellows—santa, dasya, sakhya and parenthood. The mellow of parenthood puts the devotee in the position of a maintainer. Indeed, without formality the devotee takes the position of maintainer and regards the Lord as the object of maintenance. Thus on the platform of parental love the qualities of four transcendental mellows of love of Krishnaa are present.-228.

“The exchange of spiritual happiness between <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His devotee in which <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is controlled by His devotee is compared to an ocean of nectar into which the devotee and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> plunge. This is the verdict of learned scholars who appreciate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s opulence.-Text 229.

“‘Again let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. O my Lord, I offer my obeisances hundreds and thousands of times with all affection because by Your personal pastimes You plunge the gopis into an ocean of nectar. Appreciating Your opulence, devotees generally declare that You are always subjugated by their feelings.’-Text 230.

“On the platform of conjugal love, attachment for Kåñëa, rendering service unto Him, the relaxed feelings of fraternity and the feelings of maintenance all increase in intimacy.-Text 231.

“On the platform of conjugal love, the devotee offers his body in the service of the Lord. Thus on this platform the transcendental qualities of all five rasas are present.-Text 232.

“All the material qualities evolve one after another in the material elements, beginning from ether. By gradual evolution, first one quality develops, then two qualities develop, then three and four, until all five qualities are found in earth.-Text 233.

“Similarly, on the platform of conjugal love, all the feelings of the devotees are amalgamated. The intensified taste is certainly wonderful.”-Text 234.

“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then concluded, “I have simply given a general survey describing the mellows of devotional service. You can consider how to adjust and expand this. “When one thinks of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> constantly, love for Him manifests within the heart. Even though one may be ignorant, one can reach the far shore of the ocean of transcendental love by Lord Krishna’s mercy.”-CC Madhya 19.235-236.