Marginal energy becomes internal energy

KrishnaCaitanya dasa · October 3, 2007

One cannot remain in the brahma-bhuta stage without engaging in the service of the Lord:

“The yogi whose mind is fixed on Me verily attains the highest happiness. By virtue of his identity with Brahman, he is liberated; his mind is peaceful, his passions are quieted, and he is freed from sin.”

PURPORT

Brahma-bhuta is the state of being free from material contamination and situated in the transcendental service of the Lord. Mad-bhaktim labhate param. One cannot remain in the quality of Brahman, the Absolute, until one’s mind is fixed on the lotus feet of the Lord. Sa vai manah <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> -padaravindayoh. To be always engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, or to remain in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, is to be factually liberated from the mode of passion and all material contamination.-Bg.6.27.

In the word of Srimad-Bhagavatam unless one is engaged in the service of the Lord one should fall from the brahman realization due to fail to take shelter of the transcendental Lord Sri Krishna, whose eyes are like lotus petals, and therefore having an impure intelligence (Bhag. 10.2.32):

ye ’nye ’ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya kricchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho ’nädåta-yuñmad-aìghrayah

“Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.”

PURPORT

The Lord has already explained to Arjuna the knowledge of brahmabhuta. One who is in the brahma-bhuta condition is joyful; he never laments, nor does he desire anything. That is due to confidential knowledge. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> also discloses knowledge of the Supersoul. This is also Brahman knowledge, knowledge of Brahman, but it is superior.-Bg. 18.63.

“Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit.”

PURPORT

The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone’s heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said, “Just always think of Me.” The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gita. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, a pure devotee of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities.-Bg. 18.64.

“Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.”

PURPORT

The most confidential part of knowledge is that one should become a pure devotee of Krishna and always think of Him and act for Him…These words stress that one should concentrate his mind upon Krishna —the very form with two hands carrying a flute, the bluish boy with a beautiful face and peacock feathers in His hair. There are descriptions of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> found in the Brahma-samhita and other literatures. One should fix his mind on this original form of Godhead, Krishna.-Bg. 18.65.

So, we should meditate upon that beautiful bluish boy Who plays His wonderful pastimes in Vrindavana.

-o-

Recently I found in the Sri Ramananda-Savada, a manuscript by Srila Prabhupada made public by BG Narasimgha Swami, the following and deals with the same topic.

Go Higher

An improved consciousness for the materialists is a desire to either retire from material activities or stay at a place that is undisturbed by the uproar of the modes of nature. The river Viraja is outside the boundary of the material world where there is no disturbance from the three modes of nature. The material world is the creation of the external energy of Godhead, and Vaikuntha, the spiritual world, is the creation of the internal energy of Godhead.

Viraja is situated between the material world and the spiritual world. It is outside the boundary of both the material and the spiritual world. However, renunciation without any positive engagement is imperfect and cannot give the candidate the desired result of love of God.

The aim of Lord Caitanya is to bring people to the spiritual world. Therefore, this suggestion of Ramananda, which does not take one within the boundary of Vaikuntha, was also rejected by the Lord. Negating the material activities or becoming disinterested in material activities does not suggest accepting positive spiritual activities. Spiritual activities completely depend on spiritual understanding. People having no realization of the spiritual world cannot sustain themselves by giving up all other activities. One must have a positive transcendental engagement. Otherwise, simply negating the material activities of religiosity will not help one the slightest bit in spiritual realization. By such renunciation, one will simply feed a void in his life and will again be attracted by the material activities for want of actual spiritual engagements. This sort of spiritual realization is another type of impersonal conception and is therefore not ultimately suitable for the prospective devotee.

KrishnaCaitanya dasa · October 3, 2007

Mixed Devotion

Ramananda, having realized the desire of Lord Caitanya, then suggested an improved process, called calculated devotion (jnana-misra-bhakti). Driven by a false sense of oneness with the Absolute Truth, the empiric philosopher tries to make an analytical study of the cosmic situation to find out the Absolute Truth. When he has done so, he becomes cheerful on account of his self-realization.

The symptoms of perfect realization of the Absolute Truth, which promote one to the stage of pure devotional service to the Personality of Godhead, are described in the Bhagavad-gita (18.54). This was quoted by Ramananda as a further improvement on the suggestion of renunciation of karma:

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

"The practitioner who has realized the Absolute Truth as the nondifferentiated impersonal Brahman does not lament over any material loss, neither does he desire any material gain. He is equipoised towards all objects of the material world, and these conditions make him fit to be promoted to the pure devotional service of Godhead."

However, the brahma-bhutah state of consciousness is also not a fully transcendental state of spiritual existence. The supramental consciousness, as exists in the spiritual <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:PlaceType>kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Vaikuntha</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, is a further development. The brahma-bhutah state of consciousness is undoubtedly free from gross material consciousness, and although touching the Absolute Truth indicates a transcendental feeling, it is not the actual transcendental position for realizing the activities of Vaikuntha. As such, it is also external.

Lord Caitanya wants the living entity to be free from every type of material consciousness, including becoming unconcerned with empiric knowledge and fruitive activities. One should stay in pure consciousness, as even a slight tinge of material consciousness causes an impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth. In all these different stages of material consciousness, only imaginary arguments predominate over the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Imaginary argumentative endeavors are detrimental to the pure devotional service of Godhead, and, as such, even the liberated state as above mentioned is external. This liberated state is something like the convalescent stage after relief from a disease. If a convalescent person is not properly taken care of, a relapse of the disease may mar the whole attempt at recovery.

In the brahma-bhuta liberated stage, one has not yet obtained a resting place at the lotus feet of the Personality of Godhead. As such, one is still unsupported and thus runs the chance of falling down again into material activities. It is therefore also external and thus the fourth suggestion of Ramananda was rejected by Lord Caitanya.

Knowledge-free Devotion

Ramananda then suggested the beginning of pure devotional service unconcerned with empiric knowledge or fruitive activity. To support this suggestion, Ramananda quoted a statement of Brahma during his prayer of regret before Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead:

jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva

jivanti san-mukharitam bhavadiya-vartam

stane stitah sruti-gatam tanu-va†-manobhir

ye prayaso ‘jita jito ‘py asi tais tri-lokyam

"O my Lord, those devotees who completely give up the attempt to become one with You by the culture of empiric knowledge and simply try to hear about Your glories from the mouths of self-realized saints, and who live a virtuous life, can easily achieve Your favor although You are unconquerable by anyone within the three worlds."(Bhag. 10.14.3)

This stage of culturing devotional service directly was accepted by Lord Caitanya. All the previously described stages of the culture of spiritual realization were rejected by Lord Caitanya most logically. The Lord, however, accepted the universal method of hearing the glories of the Personality of Godhead in all circumstances from the mouths of self-realized souls and giving up the attempt to become one with Godhead.

The poison of attempting to become one with Godhead kills the nucleus of devotional service. Anyone actually desiring to be engaged in the transcendental loving service of Godhead must definitely give up this idea for good. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, it is said that the idea of being one with Godhead is the topmost type of pretension, and even a slight development of this idea will completely eliminate the prospect for devotional service. This is the most dangerous misconception in spiritual life and one should at once give up the idea.

Hear From Self-realized Souls

A pure living entity, being always subservient to the Almighty Godhead Sri Krsna, should reverentially give an aural reception to the transcendental sound emanating from the mouth of a self-realized soul describing the glories of the Personality of Godhead. Only a self-realized soul can produce the powerful effect of transcendental sound. Devotees must live thoroughly honest lives in all respects by their body, mind, and words. These are the simple methods of culturing spiritual realization to its zenith

Therefore, the imaginary idea of becoming one with Godhead is a mental creation of the empiric philosopher as a result of his material vanity. Otherwise, the idea has no substance. The idea of becoming one with Godhead is artificial (…)

The message of Bhagavad-gita is to be heard from a self-realized soul and not from anyone speculating on dry subjects with imaginary meanings. The un-bona-fide attempt at hearing will simply be a waste of time. The devotee must always be careful that the speaker is in the transcendental line of disciplic succession called the parampara. The qualification of the prospective devotee should be that he must live an honest life by his body, mind, and words, which will all depend on the mercy of Godhead.

-o-

The Extraordinary Four Kumaras

The four Kumaras are the perfect example of this shanta rasa. Initially they were already self realized in the Brahman stage, or brahma-bhuta, but they further progressed.

“When the great sage Narada was glorifying the pastimes of the Lord with his vina, the four Kumaras, headed by Sanaka, although merged in the impersonal conception of Brahman, were trembling all over.”-NOD Ch.32 Symptoms of Continuous Love, Neutrality.

“When the breeze carrying the aroma of tulasi leaves from the toes of the lotus feet of the Personality of Godhead entered the nostrils of those sages, they experienced a change both in body and in mind, even though they were attached to the impersonal Brahman understanding.”

PURPORT

It appears from this verse that the four Kumaras were impersonalists or protagonists of the philosophy of monism, becoming one with the Lord. But as soon as they saw the Lord’s features, their minds changed. In other words, the impersonalist who feels transcendental pleasure in striving to become one with the Lord is defeated when he sees the beautiful transcendental features of the Lord. Because of the fragrance of His lotus feet, carried by the air and mixed with the aroma of tulasi, their minds changed; instead of becoming one with the Supreme Lord, they thought it wise to be devotees. Becoming a servitor of the lotus feet of the Lord is better than becoming one with the Lord.-SB 3.15.43.

The position of the four Kumaras is extraordinary, they are head of one of the four Vaishnava Sampradayas. They are also counted among the twelve Mahajanas, authorities on devotional sevice (SB 6.3.20).

And further more, Srila Rupa Goswami sings in his Sri Radhika-Stava (from Stava-mala).

karunam kuru mayi karuna-bharite

sanaka-sanatana-varnita-carite

“O You who are filled with compassion! O You whose divine characteristics are described by the great sages Sanaka and Sanatana [sanatana Gosvami o Sanatana Kumara]! O Radha, please be merciful to me!” By Sri Nandanandana das (ACBSP)

The real war going on in human society is the fight against Impersonalism and the misconception the marginal living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti

Guruvani · October 3, 2007

Lord Caitanya Preached Pure Devotional Service

By Sri Nandanandana das (ACBSP)

Shambhuddhi dasa’s article, Lord Caitanya on the Constitutional Position of the Soul, is misleading. I don’t know if he is an impersonalist but that is the idea that he conveys:

“In conclusion, Lord Caitanya does not teach that the constitutional position of the soul is anything more than impersonal realization of Lord Krishna in his impersonal Brahman effulgence.”

That is Shambhuddhi’s own conclusion, that is not what Srila Prabhupada explains neither what Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja is saying in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, nor the conclusion of the acaryas.

Paramatma realization is not impersonal realization:

“Real yogis meditate upon the transcendental form of the Lord as He stands on the whorl of the lotus of their hearts, the jewellike nails of His lotus feet glittering.”-SB.4.8.50.

And there are many other quotes in the sastras in this regard.

This constitutional position is explained by Lord Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita (18.54). The brahma-bhuta stage is the realization of aham bhramasmi, “I am not this matter, I am spirit soul, I am of the nature of Brahman”. At this stage is when real bhakti begins. The Vaisnava’s realization is that if he is brahman then his nature is to be engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord. To be engaged in activities of the nature of Brahman, not in material activities. This is also the explanation of the famous Tat tvam asi sutra. The Vaisnavas acaryas had explained it to mean, “You are of the same nature of the Supreme therefore your nature is to be engaged in the spiritual activities of devotional service to the Lord.” Or it also means, “You are His”. You belong to the Supreme Lord and therefore you have an eternal relationship of service to Him.

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kaksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktin labhate param

“One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.”

PURPORT

To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhuta, oneness with the Absolute… This is the brahma-bhuta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one’s individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents’ teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled… Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age.-Bg.18.54.

Lord Caitanya Himself says:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya——krisnera ‘nitya-dasa’

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of ffice:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>”. Not the impersonal position! This quality of service to the Lord is the basic ingredient.

Next is the further realization:

Gopi-bhartur pada-kamalayor dasa-dasa-dasa-dasanudasa. To serve Sri Krishna who is the Lord of the gopis, always accompany by Srimati Radharani. But one cannot serve Him directly, but rather thru the servant of the servant of the servant of the gopis. Our link to this chain of servants of the Lord is our spiritual master, and we cannot give him up as the mayavadis do.

This is the progression on this chapter of Sri Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya 19, about shanta rasa and the other mellows:

“When one is fully attached to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s lotus feet, one attains the samata stage. The word ‘samata’ is derived from the word ‘sama’; therefore santa-rasa, the position of neutrality, means being fully attached to the lotus feet of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. This is the verdict from the mouth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. This state is called self-realization.-Text 211.

“‘These are the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: “When one’s intelligence is fully attached to My lotus feet but one does not render practical service, one has attained the stage called santa-rati, or sama.” Without santa-rati, attachment to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is very difficult to achieve.’-Text 212.

“‘The word “sama” or “santa-rasa” indicates that one is attached to the lotus feet of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. “Dama” means controlling the senses and not being deviated from the Lord’s service. Endurance of unhappiness is “titiksa,” and “dhriti” means controlling the tongue and the genitals.’-Text 213.

“Giving up all desires not connected with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the business of one who is in santa-rasa. Only a devotee of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be situated on that platform. He is thus called a santa-rasa-bhakta.- Text214.

I replied to this article on dadavats but the editor refused to publish my comment on the article.

Apparently, they are also party to the fall-from-goloka myth that we are constitutionally something more than spirit sparks in the glance of Maha-Vishnu. (meant for serving Krishna)

He attacks my article by saying:

His own words are contradictory, “Lord Caitanya explains to Rupa Goswami that shanta-rasa does not possess even the smallest of intimacy with Lord Krishna and that the impersonal Brahman and the Paramatma are prominent.”

then he says:

Paramatma realization is not impersonal realization

He apparently didn't even read the quote from CC that I used:

“Sri Caitanya Caritamrita - Madhya 19.218

TRANSLATION “It is the nature of santa-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramatma is prominent.

PURPORT Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the santa-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramatma). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna.”

So, he is accusing me of saying what actually Mahaprabhu taught to Sanatan Goswami.

He is trying to say that Paramatma realization is an intimate relationship with Krishna.

It is not.

So, he is obvioulsy confused and ignoring the shastric facts and trying to overturn the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

It's all part of the fall-from-goloka fairytale that we all fell from Goloka in an intimate loving relationship with Krishna as a gopi or gopa etc.

These guys and their fall-from-goloka fairytale are already defeated by shastra and the acharyas.

They are struggling to keep the fairytale alive even at the cost of deprecating the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

In time, the fairytale proponents are going to end up looking like idiots as the fairytale myth gets exposed.

It has already been exposed.

But, these guys just put their hands over their eyes and refuse to see the truth right in front of them.

They do that by accusing me of manufacturing the statements and teachings of Mahaprabhu.

If anyone reads his article objectively they cannot but see that he is blaming me for what Mahaprabhu has given.

Guruvani · October 3, 2007

The real war going on in human society is the fight against Impersonalism and the misconception the marginal living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti

You obviously do no know the shastric siddhanta.

Impersonalism is the fall-from-goloka fairytale that is very impersonal towards Lord Krishna and accusing him of not protecting his devotees and allowing them to fall down from Goloka to become worms in stool.

That idea is worse than impersonalism.

It belittles and deprecates Lord Krishna.

Lord Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.

The fall-from-goloka fairytale says that they are.

Somebody has to be wrong.

Guruvani · October 3, 2007

It's quite amuzing to see the smokescreen they throw up by posting a lot of irrelevant quotes as if the quotes somehow support their position and prove the fall from goloka fairytale.

It's just a smokescreen so that we cannot actually figure out what they are saying.

They are trying to defeat Mahaprabhu's teachings with quotes from the books.

How ridiculous is that?

Sarva gattah · October 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Sarva gattah · October 3, 2007

Hari Bol Shambhuddhi dasa’s G'day mate, how are ya, you're a bit of a yobbo aren't ya? Or maybe more like a blowie? You can't be Fair dinkum and dinky-di with with all the bodgy things you write on about can you ?You've got Buckley's chance with the blues your makin. She's apples mate?

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

This is what is really going on

The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy.

Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.

Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.

In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

sevabhakta · October 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Let us break this down.

Quote #1. Yes, once one is in Vaikuntha proper, they don't fall. This quote actually contradicts the fairy tale. Thank you for using it. Also note that those from Vaikuntha who come to the material world actually may "think" or "dream" they are fallen. We hear this confession from all the great pure devotees, who claim they are fallen and less than worms in stool.

Quote #2. Yes, when someone in their waking state as a human/demon who is within the Mahat-tattva conditioned by the mode of ignorance IMAGINES that they are in a world separate from Krsna, this is COMPARED to the act of dreaming or daydreaming. It is compared to this so we neophytes can get a reference point and understand through our mundane experience a little bit about the reality of our situation. If mundane examples could not be used by an Acharya, how would he approach us?

Quote #3 This quote is way out of context but again, he is saying our separation from Krnsa is LIKE "that". LIKE meaning similar or analagous to. The use of the word "LIKE" is only used when you are not directly describing a thing, but trying to give a similar example so someone ignorant can get a reference point.

I hope this helps.

Hare Krsna

Kulapavana · October 3, 2007

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Again, I ask you the same questions:

What happened to Jaya and Vijaya? Did they go to sleep at the gates of Vaikuntha? Or did they FALL DOWN to the material world, i.e. they transferred to the very real material world to be born as demons?

When the demon is killed by Krsna, his soul visibly issues out of their body and merges into the EFFULGENCE of the Lord. WHAT was the brilliant spark that came out of Sisupala's body when he was killed by Krsna? His illusory sleeper consciousness or his soul?

Sarva gattah · October 3, 2007

Sevabhakta you do not understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or Vedanta

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) , but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com b]<st1:date Year= November 14, 1968</st1:date>,

.

<st1:place>Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

:deal: Sevabhakta, Guruvani whoever, you are dreaming your existence in the material creation :sleep: while your genuine Krishna Conscious body is eternally devotionally awake in Vaikuntha.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6wxJmAvfA

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Sarva gattah · October 3, 2007

Again, I ask you the same questions:

What happened to Jaya and Vijaya? Did they go to sleep at the gates of Vaikuntha? Or did they FALL DOWN to the material world, i.e. they transferred to the very real material world to be born as demons?

When the demon is killed by Krsna, his soul visibly issues out of their body and merges into the EFFULGENCE of the Lord. WHAT was the brilliant spark that came out of Sisupala's body when he was killed by Krsna? His illusory sleeper consciousness or his soul?[/qu

Due to the absents of time in Vaikuntha and Goloka, the so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya was only within the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that is under the jurisdiction of past, present and future.

There is no time in Vaikuntha or Goloka, so after playing their parts dreaming as demons in the mahat-tattva, on returning to their duty as gate keepers, it was if they NEVER left. The so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya is just a dream, like any marginal living entity who 'falls down' from Vaikuntha, they also only dreamt they had become demons.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/ /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

.

.

<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in <st1:place><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = " /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake". Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region>

I believe this clearly answers your question - Jai Prabhupada

suchandra · October 3, 2007

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Sevabhakta, Guruvani whoever, you are dreaming your existence in the material creation while your genuine Krishna Conscious body is eternally devotionally awake in Vaikuntha.

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<st1:place><font]>When reading,

oḿ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaḿ

pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya

pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate

that the Complete Whole is perfect and complete - there can't be anything missing.

If there would be no spiritual bodies of the presently conditioned souls in Vaikuntha, there would be definitely something missing. But how can there be something missing in the Complete Whole? Doesnt make sense.

<st1:place></st1:place></font]></st1:place>

Sarva gattah · October 3, 2007

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place><FONT]>When reading,

oḿ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaḿ

pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya

pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate

that the Complete Whole is perfect and complete - there can't be anything missing.

If there would be no spiritual bodies of the presently conditioned souls in Vaikuntha, there would be definitely something missing. But how can there be something missing in the Complete Whole? Doesnt make sense.

<st1:place></st1:place></FONT]></st1:place>

The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.

There is nothing missing because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out - Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.

Kulapavana · October 3, 2007

[I believe this clearly answers your question

LOL!

Guruvani · October 3, 2007

Ultimately, the debate is not just about "origins" that some devotees say is a discussion that should not be researched very well.

The debate is about siddhanta.

The debate is about defending the integrity of Lord Krishna and his pure devotees.

The fall-from-goloka fairytale is not about origins as much as it is about twisting, distorting and manipulating the instructions of Srila Prabhupada to propose an erroneous conclusion that contradicts and assaults the Gaudiya siddhanta and shastric presentations.

So, we are not going to let the discussion get derailed or sidelined over accusations that it is a useless and taboo debate about origins.

Why should origins be taboo?

Actually, the origins debate is taking place because of neophyte lack of understanding of shakti-traya-jnana that Jiva Goswami says is important in understanding Lord Krishna.

With even an elementary understanding of shakti-traya-jnana the whole fall-from-goloka fairytale crumbles into a falacious myth that that has been manufactured by ISKCON neophytes.

sevabhakta · October 3, 2007

The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.

There is nothing missing because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out - Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.

Keep up this sahajya mentality, and you will become a monkey in Vrndaban for a punishment lifetime.

Last time you suffered your material conditioning did it hurt? Of course it did. Did your repeating the mantra "I am really a gopi in Vrndaban" help to relieve that suffering? Did you suffer again after that?

Bad enough you are misleading yourself to think you can escape your conditioning by jumping over the head of an Acharya, but to mislead others in the same way to deny the truth of their situation, and the only way out does not bode well for you.

Personally I believe that you get one punishment lifetime as a Monkey IF and ONLY IF, you do not mislead others. For each person you convert to your Sahajya mentality, you will likely spend an additional punishment lifetime.

As a monkey, you will not be able to spend even a moment in your false reverie of "I am already a gopa". You will simply suffer your ignorance every moment. And it will feel very real. Because although this realm is "like a dream", it is very REAL and so is the suffering. It will be "like a dream" when you actually awaken to your Siddha swarupa. Til then it will be just like every other day. You in the mahat tattva specualting yourself into oblivion.

I wish you the best, but on your present course I am afraid of the worst for you. Please try to understand.

Hari Bol

Sarva gattah · October 3, 2007

Keep up this sahajya mentality, and you will become a monkey in Vrndaban for a punishment lifetime.

Last time you suffered your material conditioning did it hurt? Of course it did. Did your repeating the mantra "I am really a gopi in Vrndaban" help to relieve that suffering? Did you suffer again after that?

Bad enough you are misleading yourself to think you can escape your conditioning by jumping over the head of an Acharya, but to mislead others in the same way to deny the truth of their situation, and the only way out does not bode well for you.

Personally I believe that you get one punishment lifetime as a Monkey IF and ONLY IF, you do not mislead others. For each person you convert to your Sahajya mentality, you will likely spend an additional punishment lifetime.

As a monkey, you will not be able to spend even a moment in your false reverie of "I am already a gopa". You will simply suffer your ignorance every moment. And it will feel very real. Because although this realm is "like a dream", it is very REAL and so is the suffering. It will be "like a dream" when you actually awaken to your Siddha swarupa. Til then it will be just like every other day. You in the mahat tattva specualting yourself into oblivion.

I wish you the best, but on your present course I am afraid of the worst for you. Please try to understand.

Hari Bol

Above in quotes is the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuin nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka

Sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa (Guruvani) are having a bad dream, yet foolishly think their dream is who they really are

The barking dogs will always bark but who care's, the caravan of truth that we ALL originate from Goloka will forever go on, no matter how loud them or any other fools barks that we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti :crazy2:

sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa are polluted with mayavardi philosophy. :wacko: They are unfortunately polluted by Impersonalism!!

The secret of understanding this be first being a devotee of Krishna and not an IMPERSONALIST, only then can one realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.