Marginal energy becomes internal energy

[Guruvani]

Krishna can and does convert potencies from one platform to another.

Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport.

 

The Jiva is actually internal potency by constitution.

The Jiva can develop the full potential in devotional service.

The marginal condition of the jiva can be evolved to the full potential of the internal energy that the jiva actually generates from.

 

Sri Isopanishad 5 purport,

 

Because He is full of inconceivable potencies, God can accept our service through any sort of medium, and He can convert His different potencies according to His own will.

[Laulyam]

Everyone is under the impression that he is of this material world, and with this concept of life, everyone is working in ignorance in different forms of life. The activities of the particular type of body are called karma, or fruitive action. All conditioned souls under the impression of the bodily concept are working according to their particular types of body. These activities are creating their future conditional life. Because they have very little information of the spiritual world, they do not generally take to spiritual activities, which are called bhakti-yoga. Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga, after giving up this present body, go directly to the spiritual world and become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their:uzi: first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination.

[sevabhakta]

 

Everyone is under the impression that he is of this material world, and with this concept of life, everyone is working in ignorance in different forms of life. The activities of the particular type of body are called karma, or fruitive action. All conditioned souls under the impression of the bodily concept are working according to their particular types of body. These activities are creating their future conditional life. Because they have very little information of the spiritual world, they do not generally take to spiritual activities, which are called bhakti-yoga. Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga, after giving up this present body, go directly to the spiritual world and become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their:uzi: first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination.

 

Well, Laulyam Prabhu, the problem with quoting the sastra in this case is that the opposition believes that Srila Prabhupada's nursery rhyme letters to brand spanking new, immature neophytes trump sastra.

 

But, that problem aside I appreciate this glorious purport.

 

And as far as the following quote from our infamous resident Fable teller, "Sarva Gattah"...

 

"Above in quotes is the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuin nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka."

 

Tell me, exactly what are you yourself, in your nitya-siddha body, doing right now in Goloka.

 

I know, I know, if you told me I would faint it is so confidential and intimate.

 

Maybe we need a section of this Forum for Fables and Story tellers.

 

 

[Vigraha]

I believe this clearly answers and proves we are presently in Goloka or Vaikuntha, yet presently dreaming we are in the material creation - Jai Prabhupada.

 

I believe this clearly answers and proves we are presently in Goloka or Vaikuntha, yet presently dreaming we are in the material creation - Jai Prabhupada.

Due to the absents of time in Vaikuntha and Goloka, the so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya as well as all marginal living entities who use their free will to activate their non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha lower self, only manifests within the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that is under the jurisdiction of past, present and future.

There is however, a difference in that Jaya and Vijaya offended pure devotee's, never the less, they still had to take birth as demons in the material creation. Even though they where in demon bodies, they were still Krishna conscious, that is that they never ever stopped thinking how they hated Krishna.

This is the part or drama Jaya and Vijaya played in the Lords pastimes. On the other hand, ALL other marginal living entities can choose to leave Goloka, not as their eternal nitya-siddha svarupa body, but as a secondary dreaming nitya-siddha consciousness thai can only attain bodily form from Maha-Vishnu, this is the only way ALL MARGINAL LIVING ENTITIES can leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and take refuge in His mahat-tattva temporary dreams (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

There is no time in Vaikuntha or Goloka, so after playing their parts dreaming as demons in the mahat-tattva, on returning to their perpetual duty as gate keepers, it was if they NEVER left. The so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya is just a dream, like any marginal living entity who 'falls down' from Vaikuntha, they also only dreamt they had become demons.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake". Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Tokyo, Japan

The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious bodily svarupa constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.

There is nothing missing in Goloka because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies in unlimited various transcendental forms that can only be revealed when one reestablishes their original Krishna Consciousness. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out on being our genuine perpetual bodily identity that we have always been. Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.

I believe this clearly answers and proves we are presently in Goloka or Vaikuntha, yet presently dreaming we are in the material creation - Jai Prabhupada

[Guruvani]

Yes Vigraha you are dreaming.

But, you are in the material world dreaming, not in Goloka dreaming.

In Goloka nobody dreams.

It is just wrong to say so.

 

Why must dreaming be done from Goloka Mr. Vigraha?

Why can't dreaming be done in dreamland - the material world?

 

You are one confused lad.

Your ego is your big problem.

 

You need to stop defending your ego and false pride and accept the shastric siddhanta without adding your fairytales to it.

 

You are not doing any service to Srila Prabhupada by preaching your homemade fairytale.

You are insulting him and all the predecessor acharyas with your fall-from-goloka rant.

[Vigraha]

 

 

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

 

 

The so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya, as well as all marginal living entities who choose to use their free will or God given right to activate their non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha lower self, only manifests within the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that is under the jurisdiction of past, present and future.

There is however, a difference in that Jaya and Vijaya offended pure devotee's, never the less, they still had to take birth as demons in the material creation.

 

Even though they where in demon bodies, they were still Krishna conscious, that is, they never ever stopped thinking how they hated Krishna - that is also Krishna Consciousness.

This is the part or drama Jaya and Vijaya played in the Lords pastimes.

 

On the other hand, ALL other marginal living entities can use their free will to choose to leave Goloka, not as their eternal nitya-siddha svarupa body, but as a secondary dreaming nitya-siddha consciousness that can only attain bodily form or vessels from Maha-Vishnu, this is the only way ALL MARGINAL LIVING ENTITIES can leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and take refuge in His mahat-tattva temporary dreams (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

There is no time in Vaikuntha or Goloka, so after playing their parts dreaming as demons in the mahat-tattva, on returning to their perpetual duty as gate keepers, it was if they NEVER left. The so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya is just a dream, like any marginal living entity who 'falls down' from Vaikuntha, they also only dreamt they had become demons.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake". Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Tokyo, Japan

The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious bodily svarupa constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.

There is nothing missing in Goloka because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies in unlimited various transcendental forms that can only be revealed when one reestablishes their original Krishna Consciousness.

 

To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out on being our genuine perpetual bodily identity that we have always been and always will be.

 

Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.

[suchandra]

 

 

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

 

 

 

 

 

Go on with the good work prabhu - sometimes people have to be forced to become happy.

[Guruvani]

 

 

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

 

.

But, sir, none of the quotes of Srila Prabhupada that you keep repeating over and over again day after day week after week month after month say that.

 

That statement is your own little concoction.

It is not shastric.

 

It has simply sprouted like a mushroom in your mind.

It is a lie and a distortion.

 

That will make you or anyone else happy?

No.

It never will.

[Guruvani]

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Laulyam]

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

 

 

 

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

 

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him.

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

[sevabhakta]

That passage from Jaiva Dharma is chock full of information.

 

The most relevant snippets to this thread are...

 

1. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains.

 

2.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings.

 

So we know that siddha means perfect.

 

We know Srila Prabhupada said that once sadhana siddha is reached that it is not different than nitya-siddha.

 

We know that a perfect loving servant of Krsna in Goloka never falls in the sense of forgetting Krsna even for one moment.

 

The fairytale vadis have produced innumerable quotes from Srila Prabhupada stating that each conditioned Jiva actually has an eternal nitya siddha form in Goloka.

 

Put it all together and it should be obvious that once a conditioned Jiva perfects his sadhana by taking shelter of the Hladini Sakti of the Cit Sakti, that Krsna transforms or transmutes the marginal potency into the Cit potency, because there is no margin within the Hladini Sakti's activities in Goloka Vrndavana. Everything is full there and fully engaged. No margin for error.

 

So can we all get together and chant, distribute prasadam and books, and cooperate on the subsistence level to maintain these things (aka Daivi Varnashrama Dharma) and leave the fairy tale behind us?

[suchandra]

 

So can we all get together and chant, distribute prasadam and books, and cooperate on the subsistence level to maintain these things (aka Daivi Varnashrama Dharma) and leave the fairy tale behind us?

Good points, instead of trying in detail to understand how it feels when you swim, why not just do it and swim? Additionally, only then others will really understand when we speak about swimming. As soon realized Vaishnavas speak about the spiritual body everyone is satisfied, why - because they have attained what they talk about. Others might go on speculating and quoting from this sastra and that sastra for ever..........

 

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

 

The fairytale vadis have produced innumerable quotes from Srila Prabhupada stating that each conditioned Jiva actually has an eternal nitya siddha form in Goloka.

 

I don't think they really have.

I think that they have a few statements that they use to extrapolate that conclusion.

Part of their confusion is that they think svarupa always means "eternal form".

Well, that is also a misconception.

Svarupa in the sense of constitutional position means :

svarūpa — having the nature; CC Adi 4.78

svarūpa — the real nature; CC Adi 4.86

svarūpa — nature; CC Adi 4.98

 

So, it means our nature is to serve Krishna.

That is inherent in the soul.

It does NOT means eternal spiritual form other than the form of a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

 

That spark has a form as such.

That is the actual svarupa of the jiva as far as form goes unless and until he attaines a spiritual body in Goloka in the pastimes of Krishna.

 

I don't think they have produced a single quote that supports the sleepervadi concoction.

All they have is some quotes they abuse to extrapolate out their faitytale myth.

[sevabhakta]

You are right KB. Even as I was writing that I sensed I was exaggerating, and thought, I should qualify the statement. Why I didn't, laziness mixed with time limits. I probably should have left my passion at the door and not even posted til I had the time.

 

So glad you were there to pick up after my mess.

 

I highly doubt Srila Prabhupada ever used the words siddha-swarupa or perfected swarupa to describe the "current" condition of a "dreaming" Jiva, but I could be wrong and he would have used it just so as to be viable to the moment he was preaching to someone.

 

Hare Krsna

[Svarupa]

 

Above in quotes is the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuin nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka

 

Sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa (Guruvani) are having a bad dream, yet foolishly think their dream is who they really are

 

The barking dogs will always bark but who care's, the caravan of truth that we ALL originate from Goloka will forever go on, no matter how loud them or any other fools barks that we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa are polluted with mayavardi philosophy. They are unfortunately polluted by Impersonalism!!

 

 

The secret of understanding this be first being a devotee of Krishna and not an IMPERSONALIST, only then can one realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.

There is nothing missing because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out - Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.

 

 

 

This is what is really going on

 

 

The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy.

Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.

Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.

In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

 

I enjoyed reading this, explains a lot

[sevabhakta]

Of course you enjoyed it. Now you can continue to enjoy, plus imagine you are already eternally perfected and liberated in devotional service.

 

What a deal. No more hassle with your bad self and your conditioned tendencies. It is just a dream, therefore even if you break all the rules it never happens.

 

That is another punishment life in Vrndavana for you Vigraha, you have led another astray. Keep it up and you will make the record books.

[sevabhakta]

According to this purport, some Jiva's do not transform into Cit potency.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times.

 

Perhaps, there can be a point where one of such associates gets transformed into Cit potency. Krsna can do anything.

 

But it seems clear from this purport that this is not always the case.

 

 

 

SB 1.14.32-33

 

 

 

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

[Guruvani]

 

According to this purport, some Jiva's do not transform into Cit potency.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times.

 

Perhaps, there can be a point where one of such associates gets transformed into Cit potency. Krsna can do anything.

 

But it seems clear from this purport that this is not always the case.

 

 

 

SB 1.14.32-33

 

 

 

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

 

What I think we need to understand about the purport above is that Srila Prabhupada specifically mentions Uddhava in terms of his "descending with the Lord Krishna to this material world".

 

When associates of the Lord descend into the material world they enter the marginal zone because when they are in the material world they are also subjected to the material atmosphere and as such are at that time between the material and spiritual world.(tatastha)

 

My point all along is that in GOLOKA Vrindavan this material atmosphere or situation does not exist and as such there is no marginal conditions existing there.

 

What we are debating in the fall-from-goloka fairytale is that in Goloka there is no material circumstances or surroundings and as such NO marginal conditions existing there.

 

Even before you presented this purport I was also thinking that when associates of the Lord come to the material world to assist the Lord in his pastimes that they are very similar to the marginal jivas except for the fact that they are self-realized and fully protected by the Lord.

 

I think the main point Srila Prabhupada was making is that when Krishna's associates come with him to the material world they require special protection from Krishna due to the fact that they are also exposed to the external energy of Krishna at that time.

 

When they return to Goloka, the marginal conditions do not exist and there is no exposure to the external material energy.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

I don't care what you are trying to say with these quotes, but being in illusion is a falldown for the living entity and Srila Prabhupada refers to fallen conditioned souls many times in his books.

 

This so-called class in Japan is probably a fraud hoax quote.

If you can verify that quote in the Vedabase then please do.

Otherwise, I reject the quote as a fabricated fraud.

 

I wouldn't put it past the sleepervadis to manufacture false quotes of Srila Prabhupada to support their fairytale myth.

 

The concept of fallen souls is a constant and consistent theme in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

This theory that there really is no such thing as a falldown for the jiva contradicts many, many statements in the books of Srila Prabhpada.

 

I don't buy it on the basis of some unverifiable quote that I have never seen in any authoritative resource of Prabhupada teachings.

[sevabhakta]

 

I don't care what you are trying to say with these quotes, but being in illusion is a falldown for the living entity and Srila Prabhupada refers to fallen conditioned souls many times in his books.

 

This so-called class in Japan is probably a fraud hoax quote.

If you can verify that quote in the Vedabase then please do.

Otherwise, I reject the quote as a fabricated fraud.

 

I wouldn't put it past the sleepervadis to manufacture false quotes of Srila Prabhupada to support their fairytale myth.

 

The concept of fallen souls is a constant and consistent theme in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

This theory that there really is no such thing as a falldown for the jiva contradicts many, many statements in the books of Srila Prabhpada.

 

I don't buy it on the basis of some unverifiable quote that I have never seen in any authoritative resource of Prabhupada teachings.

 

 

Many mahabhagavats think they are deluded by Maya. They claim they have "fallen" into the ocean of material nescience and their spiritual master was sent to save them.

 

But we know that is Yoga Maya acting on them. And this is just how examples are set for up and coming neophytes and madhyamas.

 

That quote from a class in Japan may be legit, but it has no real bearing on the topic.

 

Half of the quotes the Cheif throws out there can be used to defeat his concoctions anyway.

 

What a great philosophy. I love Krsna consciousness.

[suchandra]

Looks like Prabhupada gave only one SB class in Japan where he said:

 

They are to be awakened to Krishna consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from Krishna. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya. I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, “Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there.” So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that’s all. Actually we don’t forget. It is temporary. Ātma-mayam ṛte. It is only it is action of God’s external energy. Because I wanted to forget Krishna, therefore Krishna has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankīrtana. (end)

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.4

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Japan, April 22, 1972

full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan

[kailasa]

Soul is eternal tatastha sakti

 

The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha cakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the vineu-tattva and jeva-tattva. The jeva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times.

 

The living entities, who are residents of the spiritual as well as the material expansions, are His marginal energy (tatastha -cakti), and they are at liberty to live in either of the energies, external or internal.

 

TRANSLATION

“The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases—internal, marginal (tatastha) and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

 

TRANSLATION

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kanea because he is the marginal energy of Kanea and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kanea has three varieties of energy.

[Guruvani]

 

Soul is eternal tatastha sakti

 

The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha cakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the vineu-tattva and jeva-tattva. The jeva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times.

 

The living entities, who are residents of the spiritual as well as the material expansions, are His marginal energy (tatastha -cakti), and they are at liberty to live in either of the energies, external or internal.

 

TRANSLATION

“The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases—internal, marginal (tatastha) and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

 

TRANSLATION

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kanea because he is the marginal energy of Kanea and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kanea has three varieties of energy.

 

"Living entitiy" is not a term that is ever used to refer to the eternal associates of Krishna. As described in the purport above it refers to the spirit sparks emananting from the brahmajyoti of Krishna.

 

The perfected souls with spiritual forms are non-different from their bodies, just as Lord Krishna is non different from his body.

As such the associates of Krishna are not spirit sparks. They are spiritual forms like Radha and Krishna.

 

We have to learn the difference between spirit spark living entities and living beings that are spiritual forms just like Radha and Krishna.

 

Neither shastra or Srila Prabhupada ever refer to the devotees of Krishna as "living entities". Living entities are just that - an entity, not a spiritual form as a gopi or gopa in Goloka Vrindavan.

 

When the liberated soul attains a spiritual body in service to Krishna, then they are non-different from that spiritual form. That is the absolute nature of self-realized souls and their spiritual forms in Vaikuntha or Goloka.

 

Devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not spirit sparks.

They are evolved into spiritual bodies like Radha and Krishna.

 

This is the result of being blessed and embued with hladini shakti.

 

A raw, naked spirit spark without a spiritual body is what is referred to in the term "living entity".

 

As such, there is no Supersoul in the heart of living beings in the spiritual world.

 

Paramatma is a temporary form of Krishna that occurs only when and if there is a material manfestation where numberless living entities are impregnated.

 

In the spiritual world there is no Paramatma.

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 7.4 purport,

 

 

There are no spiritual diversities in the brahmajyoti as there are in the Vaikuṇṭhalokas, and the impersonalist accepts this brahmajyoti as the ultimate eternal goal. The Paramātmā manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. The Paramātmā manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world. Therefore the factual Absolute Truth is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. He is the complete energetic person, and He possesses different separated and internal energies.

[sevabhakta]

It think that whoever Sri Uddhava and Sri Arjuna are in their eternal swarupa in Goloka Vrndavana, when they are "here in the material world" accompanying Krsna for his Lila, we may as well follow Srila Prabhupada's vision and call them Jiva-tattva.

 

If we think we know something different and are confidentially informed that calling them Jiva tattva is a late semester preaching technique for near graduation time, which also implies that great discrimination is warranted in terms of who and when to share such a thing.

 

My take only as usual, Caveat Emptor.

 

Love to see some sastra on it for truly I have not completed my curriculum fully, just love to ride my intuition, and please forgive me if I slip into speculation.

 

Hari Bol