Vaishnavism vs Christianity

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

Verse 13 is an acknowledgement that the illusory energy or "evil one" is stronger then the jiva but is under the control of the Supreme Lord and is an appeal for the Lord to save us from being further victimized and kept from Him by His external energy.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

I prefer the phrasing I learned in Catholic High School, which was just "deliver us from evil". By saying "evil one", we are placing evil outside of ourselves. Most "evil" is the product of our own minds and not any personification of evil.

 

 

Ok. Your preference is your preference. But I think it is important to remember that the illusory energy of God is a force that exists outside of and above our own minds. It is said that maya throws and deludes the consciousness of all souls in the material world. So to acknowledge maya outside of myself and also within myself is not a contradiction. We have heard the phrase "sleeping on the lap of the witch maya" right. Durga is not just a symbol of somethng lying within us but she is a person, an expansion of Radharani the Divine Mother.

 

For myself I find the less nit picking I do over semantics of translations the more actual free flow of the spirit I am able experience. That is just my experience of course.

[cbrahma]

Paul - The apostle who never saw Jesus, but theologized his teachings into a system that could be called a 'religion'.

I have a lot of problems with Paul mostly with his unresolvable contradictions. I have different problems with Peter. Analogously one could say Paul provided the Mind and Peter the body of the church.

It isn't surprising that a Church based on such paradoxical elements would eventually split. A dry legalistic institution on the one hand- Catholic and a fragmented zealous subjective sect on the other - Protestant.

Whoever is responsible for the Romanization and eventual Hellenization of Christ's teaching is irrelevant. Jesus was neither Roman nor Greek, but it is those elements that move the Western Christians today.

Christ's option for the poor - his decrying worldliness and materialism , are lost in all the culturally doctored theology and bureaucracy of what passes as church.

[theist]

 

Paul - The apostle who never saw Jesus, but theologized his teachings into a system that could be called a 'religion'.

I have a lot of problems with Paul mostly with his unresolvable contradictions. I have different problems with Peter. Analogously one could say Paul provided the Mind and Peter the body of the church.

It isn't surprising that a Church based on such paradoxical elements would eventually split. A dry legalistic institution on the one hand- Catholic and a fragmented zealous subjective sect on the other - Protestant.

Whoever is responsible for the Romanization and eventual Hellenization of Christ's teaching is irrelevant. Jesus was neither Roman nor Greek, but it is those elements that move the Western Christians today.

Christ's option for the poor - his decrying worldliness and materialism , is lost in all the culturally doctored theology and bureaucracy of what passes as church.

 

Yes that is the false Christianity. Now we need to see what is the true Christianity.

[gHari]

It is like any 'religion'. If you can't do it, then focus on the organization.

 

If you can't renounce and surrender to the Kingdom of God, then build a bunch of rules and regulations by which you can fool yourself into divinity.

 

Quarrel about ISKCON management, philosophy, etc. and forget Krsna's lotus feet. It's the poseur way of life - cheaters cheating the cheaters, and themselves.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Judeo-Christianity can be characterized by the prominent role of covenants. For instance, God says to the Jews in captivity in Egypt: you smear the blood of a young calf (or was it a goat?) on your door, and I'll spare your firstborn while killing all the Egyptians'.

 

Another is: I'll slaughter my beloved Son on the Cross and, if you accept Him as your Lord and Savior, *you* won't have to die on the cross for your sins as you deserve to do.

 

It's a bargaining, mercenary mentality. Of course, Lord Jesus Himself displayed the fully-surrendered mood of Mahaprabhu in his prayers the night before his arrest.

 

Still, the Vaishnava ideal is that the Lord may treat the Vaishnava any way He wishes; the Lord may use and abuse the Vaishnava, the Vaishnava will not complain, but the Vaishnava prays to always be in the company of the Lord.

[theist]

 

Another is: I'll slaughter my beloved Son on the Cross and, if you accept Him as your Lord and Savior, *you* won't have to die on the cross for your sins as you deserve to do.

 

Yes Christians believe this. However in the case of Jesus Christ the sacrificial lamb (Christ) could have said no. Whereas the lambs n the Old Testament were just grabbed up and slaughtered against their will.

 

It is popular to say that Jesus did it all and now "we" Christians needn't do anything however that is bot the version of Jesus Christ Himself. He told His followers jus tprior to His crucifixation to "Pick up your cross and follow me." What that means to me is that we are to choose to follow the will of God over the will of the lessor self our daily lives.

 

I see the having faith in the sacrifice of Jesus as being the door opener for us to receive divine shakti to carry us through to that ideal. Instead what we hear from the christian preachers is all to often accepting Christ means getting a get out of hell free card.

[suchandra]

 

Another is: I'll slaughter my beloved Son on the Cross and, if you accept Him as your Lord and Savior, *you* won't have to die on the cross for your sins as you deserve to do.

 

It's a bargaining, mercenary mentality. Of course, Lord Jesus Himself displayed the fully-surrendered mood of Mahaprabhu in his prayers the night before his arrest.

 

 

 

This might rather highlight the root cause, as pointed out today by the Daily Telegraph UK, Jesus is considered by the establishment - due different reasons - a bastard.

 

THE DAILY TELEGRAPH UNITED KINGDOM:

 

Call for Jews to stop calling Jesus a bastard

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/06/wjesus106.xml

By Ben Martin

Last Updated: 12:14am BST 06/10/2007

A senior American cardinal has asked Jews to reconsider descriptions of Jesus as a "bastard" in exchange for a softening of traditional Catholic prayers calling for Jews to be converted to Christianity.

 

# Damien Thompson: Holy smoke

 

The controversial comments, by Cardinal Francis George of the Archdiocese of Chicago, concern a prayer said during Easter celebrations by the small number of parishes or priests who celebrate a particular form of Good Friday mass.

Those version of Good Friday prayers calls for the congregation to pray for Jews to be converted to Christianity.

But Cardinal George said this prayer should be amended to ensure it did not offend Jews.

"I suspect (the amendment) probably will be (made), because the intention is to be sure that our prayers are not offensive to the Jewish people who are our ancestors in the faith," Cardinal George said in an interview with the National Catholic Reporter.

"We can't possibly insult them in our liturgy … not that any group has a veto on anybody's prayers, because you can go through Jewish texts and find material that is offensive to us. But if we're interested in keeping the dialogue strong, and we have to be, we should be very cautious about any prayer that they find insulting."

But this should mean that Jews, in turn, consider amending their own religious texts, he said.

"It does work both ways. Maybe this is an opening to say, 'Would you care to look at some of the Talmudic literature's description of Jesus as a bastard, and so on, and maybe make a few changes in some of that?'"

[cidanandas]

 

Great article Suchandra.

 

It really sheds light on some of the contributing factors to the sham that the Roman Catholic Church with its militant Jesuit branch, and Popery has become.

 

The lust for fame adoration and distinction is very powerful, and Paul traded in his old laws, which he couldn't follow, for a new set which he made up from his speculative mind, and made sure they were all in his capacity to adhere to.

 

And he found lots of people to agree with him and set up a system for world domination to rival that of the Hebrews who had temporarily lost sight of the spirit behind their strict adherance to laws.

 

Unfortunately, the crew in Iskcon is displaying a similar tact. May Lord Krsna have mercy on all of us.

 

As the Maha Mantra is predicted to be the yuga dharma,it is natural that there should be a society to oversee the spreading of such religion,in an enthusiastic and pure way.The Founder Acarya,Srila Prabhupada,created the GBC for this noble mission:many failed to follow his instructions and so,are now in their own mental speculations.Once the Acarya's instructions are put into practice ,all problems will be solved.

Jesus Christ's Name was stolen by the Roman Empire,who spread a false christianity around the world,oppsite to Jesus's pure teachings of love of all living entities,no intoxication,no illicit sex and no gambling.It was replaced by such deviations as "Jesus changed water into wine!", ate fish and meat, encouraged marriage and business....

All those opposed to such deviating teachings were massacred,tortured,burnt alive,crucified and all countries of the world have been invaded with such demonic mentality just to turn the world into a demonic place,together with Islam,another sect of violent kind.

The Essenes,following fenuine christianity] still exist today,but I'm not allowed to give you the link[strange conditions of membership,links only after 15 posts!],as well as islamveg,so you can find out yourself!

[suchandra]

 

As the Maha Mantra is predicted to be the yuga dharma,it is natural that there should be a society to oversee the spreading of such religion,in an enthusiastic and pure way.The Founder Acarya,Srila Prabhupada,created the GBC for this noble mission:many failed to follow his instructions and so,are now in their own mental speculations.Once the Acarya's instructions are put into practice ,all problems will be solved.

Jesus Christ's Name was stolen by the Roman Empire,who spread a false christianity around the world,oppsite to Jesus's pure teachings of love of all living entities,no intoxication,no illicit sex and no gambling.It was replaced by such deviations as "Jesus changed water into wine!", ate fish and meat, encouraged marriage and business....

All those opposed to such deviating teachings were massacred,tortured,burnt alive,crucified and all countries of the world have been invaded with such demonic mentality just to turn the world into a demonic place,together with Islam,another sect of violent kind.

The Essenes,following fenuine christianity] still exist today,but I'm not allowed to give you the link[strange conditions of membership,links only after 15 posts!],as well as islamveg,so you can find out yourself!

These are good points, take for example the basic teachings of Vaishnavism, we're immortal souls transmigrating from one material body to the next according our self-made karma. Did we ever found this philosophy presented anywhere on global media? They present via dozens satellites 24h non-stop mundane content. Not one single time pure Vaishnava philosophy presented. What kind of idiots are in power of 1 billion Hindus? One can say that 6 billion people on this planet never had one single authentic presentation of the basic lessons of vedic wisdom. And who's responsible for so much madness? Vedic culture is to always find out a culprit who's responsible and not to say, well nobody is responsible.

 

satellites in space which enable gobal tv reception

[jnani]

 

Doesn't verse 11 contradict verse 10? If we truly wish the Lord's will to be done then why petition him for bread? If the Lord wills it, we will have bread.

 

 

 

I prefer the phrasing I learned in Catholic High School, which was just "deliver us from evil". By saying "evil one", we are placing evil outside of ourselves. Most "evil" is the product of our own minds and not any personification of evil.

 

The Greek text actually reads "apo tou ponirou" and the most literal translation would be "from the clever one." A better figurative rendering would be "from the clever deceiver." Therefore I think "from the evil one" is a more accurate translation than "from evil" but both serve theological preference more than true understanding.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The Greek text actually reads "apo tou ponirou" and the most literal translation would be "from the clever one." A better figurative rendering would be "from the clever deceiver." Therefore I think "from the evil one" is a more accurate translation than "from evil" but both serve theological preference more than true understanding.

 

Interesting! So, Lord Jesus taught his followers to pray in Greek, then?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Not one single time pure Vaishnava philosophy presented.

 

Maybe it's not "pure Vaishnava philosophy", but "The Legend of Bagger Vance" comes to mind immediately. It's supposed to be a golf adaptation of Bhagavad Gita.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0146984/

[Murali_Mohan_das]

...and a friend of mine called the Matrix movies "watered-down Srimad Bhagavatam"

 

 

Maybe it's not "pure Vaishnava philosophy", but "The Legend of Bagger Vance" comes to mind immediately. It's supposed to be a golf adaptation of Bhagavad Gita.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0146984/

[cbrahma]

 

...and a friend of mine called the Matrix movies "watered-down Srimad Bhagavatam"

I took a few philosophy courses at UCLA and the professor made continual references to the Matrix for its illustration of fundamental philosophical topics, not the least of which was the philosophy of Mind.

[jnani]

 

Interesting! So, Lord Jesus taught his followers to pray in Greek, then?

 

Jesus taught in spoken Aramaic, but the gospels were written in Greek, and in very different styles of Greek.

 

The process of re-translation through several languages, and the morphing connotations of evolving interpretation and usage, as well as the individual nuances of understanding of those words, renders impossible a precise understanding of the intent of the givers of ancient teachings.

 

One should be very cautious about establishing doctrine on the basis of ancient scripture alone. This is a good reason for relying on the help of a qualified teacher.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you for that clarification and the sage advice.

 

Regardless of what the original intended meaning was, the meanings you suggest are certainly more palatable to *me*!!

 

"The clever one" or the "clever deceiver" sound a lot more like the concept of Maya than they do the concept of Satan (as popularly understood).

 

 

Jesus taught in spoken Aramaic, but the gospels were written in Greek, and in very different styles of Greek.

 

The process of re-translation through several languages, and the morphing connotations of evolving interpretation and usage, as well as the individual nuances of understanding of those words, renders impossible a precise understanding of the intent of the givers of ancient teachings.

 

One should be very cautious about establishing doctrine on the basis of ancient scripture alone. This is a good reason for relying on the help of a qualified teacher.

[Rankin Fisher]

 

 

I'm merely saying that Christianity for the past 2000 years has been based on a misunderstanding. My friend Rankin Fisher (a former Missionary Baptist minister), quoted a Methodist minister friend of his as having admitted, "We (Christians) aren't really following Jesus. We're following Paul."

 

Dear Friends,

My name is Rankin Fisher. Though it has been years since the above post was written, I want to give the correct quote to Vasu's post.

I was singing at a Spring concert at the big Methodist Church in the valley. The Methodist Bishop was explaining Methodism by quoting Wesley himself. He said, "Wesley says, 'We worship Jesus as God, but we follow the rules of St. Paul.'" This is my original quote to Vasu.

ps. I belonged to the Missionary Baptist church as a child, but was never a minister. rf