ISKCON - 40 years later and still no idea of raganuga bhakti?

[Guruvani]

After more than 40 years, ISKCON as a whole still has no idea or understanding of raganuga-bhakti which is mandatory in cultivating sadhana.

 

ISKCON knows nothing beyond the fours regs and some vaidhi-bhakti?

 

They think that you must become perfect before you can aspire to even practice raganuga-sadhana.

Raganuga sadhana is mandatory and indespensible on the path of vaidhi-bhakti, yet ISKCON preachers don't even mention the importance of the raganuga sadhana.

 

Is raganuga sadhana supposed to be waited on until one attains perfection in vaidhi-bhakti?

Can one attain perfection with vaidhi-sadhana alone without the practice of raganuga-sadhana?

 

Or, do vaidhi-bhaktas get stuck in vaidhi-bhakti unless and until they accept and practice raganuga-sadhana?

[sevabhakta]

My favorite quote from Srila Prabhupada on the subject. Really simplifies the matter.

 

From Nectar of Devotion, ch 2. 1970 version

 

Now this sädhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument.

 

Another part of sädhana-bhakti is called rägänugä. Rägänugä refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ärotika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ärotika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sädhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

[Guruvani]

Chapter 16: Spontaneous Devotion Further Described

 

 

Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vṛṣṇis and Vṛndāvana denizens are called rāgānugā devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These rāgānugā devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yaśodā, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called rāgānugā.

We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (Vṛndāvana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination. In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha-nivṛtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination. Sometimes someone is found imitating such devotional love, but factually he is not freed from anarthas, or unwanted habits. It has been seen that a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, Yaśodā or the gopīs, while at the same time his abominable attraction for mundane sex life is visible. Such a manifestation of divine love is mere imitation and has no value. When one is actually spontaneously attracted to the loving principles of the gopīs, there will be found no trace of any mundane contamination in his character.

Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vṛndāvana.

 

 

So, the standard for adopting raganuga-sadhana is very high.

However, even ISKCON gurus who are supposed to taking so many fallen souls back to Godhead don't even have a clue as to the importance of raganuga-sadhana.

 

One of the differences between ISKCON and some of the classic Gaudiya lineages is that in the classic lineages one was not expected to become a pure devotee WITHOUT raganuga-sadhana.

 

In ISKCON you are supposed to be a pure devotee before you consider raganuga-sadhana.

But, originally, Mahaprabhu never made such restrictions but advised all sincere devotees to begin the process of raganuga-sadhana.

 

The ISKCON policy seems to deprive the devotee of any right or access to spontaneous service. It appears to simply shackle the devotee to vaidhi-sadhana forever.

When does a devotee ever consider himself free from material contamination?

 

How can a devotee advance beyond vaidhi-bhakti without accepting the process of raganuga-sadhana?

 

Vaidhi-bhakti alone cannot attain the goal.

Raganuga sadhana is required to develop the Vraja rasa.

 

It just seems a little peculiar that a devotee is expected to become perfect with vaidhi-bhakti alone, when shastra says clearly that Goloka cannot be obtained through vaidhi-bhakti.

 

Maybe that is why Srila Prabhupada gives the qualifier:

 

 

These rāgānugā devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yaśodā, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously.

 

So, go figure.

The raganuga bhaktas don't follow the regulative principles very strictly, yet the vaidhi-bhaktas do and are not as elevated as the raganuga bhaktas.

 

So, there is a mixed message for both classes of devotees.

For those who are not eager to accept raganuga-sadhana, then they are encouraged to keep up with the vaidhi process.

 

For those who are partial to the raganuga process they aren't bound very rigidly to the regulative principles.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

This reminds me of something I tell my party guests (on the rare occasion that I throw a party): Be spontaneous now!!!

 

That usually puts everyone right at ease

[theist]

 

My favorite quote from Srila Prabhupada on the subject. Really simplifies the matter.

 

From Nectar of Devotion, ch 2. 1970 version

 

Now this sädhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument.

 

Another part of sädhana-bhakti is called rägänugä. Rägänugä refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ärotika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ärotika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sädhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

 

I have seen quite a lot of this in Iskcon even from my outer peripherial viewpoint. It is usually labeled as enthusiasm. Actually IMO I would go far as to say that every devotee in Iskcon has tasted some raganuga in his sadhana. To say they are all just a bunch of dry rule followers is very unfair. The blockade to full fledged spontanous love of Godhead and pure transcendental vision lies at the top as I see it. They have legislated it out. But not the normal rank and file Iskconite. Again, IMO onl;y.

 

From another angle we can ask if any institution can be set up, organized and scheduled on the principle of spontaneous devotional sevice. The rules and regs. can be systematically laid out be raganuga is an affair of the heart that by definiton cannot be legislated, forced or adhered to as simply a matter of duty like vaidhi can.

 

One could place a sign up declaring such and such instituion a raganuga society and still have the members performing their service in a vaidhi manner without spontaneous affection.

 

Raganuga bhakti simply cannot be legislated in or out of existence. It does not exist within that sphere of influence.

 

It is a mistake that some people make to think that raganuga bhakti is something for those that live at Radha kunda when in fact it can also been seen in the heart of the quiet bhakta who cleans the floors everyday at some local temple in the west.

 

Is it not nothing more than just putting your heart into your service?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Nor can spontaneous devotion be *mandated*, no? If it's spontaneous, it's spontaneous, if it's not spontaneous, it's not spontaneous.

 

So, we can safely say that spontaneous devotion must come eventually if we are to obtain our objective, but who, even the Lord, can say *when* it will come?

 

Re-reading the quote below, it seems you are also saying what I am saying above.

 

 

Raganuga bhakti simply cannot be legislated in or out of existence. It does not exist within that sphere of influence.

[theist]

Yeah for sure. The idea of a party with no spontaneatity (sp?) is no party at all.

 

I am also saying that we shouldn't focus on if a certain institution is spontaneous or not because only the individual can be spontaneous in the first place. No institution can be spontaneous

[cbrahma]

There are devotional practices that I engage in because of how I feel afterwards - Like pretty much all of them- from rising for mongal aratik, chanting rounds, serving the devotees. In fact it seems selfish because these types of devotional service make me high - like a potent drug. So I guess it isn't raganuga - because maybe I'm going after the high - but isnt' the high Krsna?

[Shakti-Fan]

1) hari hari! kabe haba vrndavana-vasi

nirakhiba nayane yugala-rupa-rasi

<st2:personname w:st="on"> O Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Hari</st1:sn></st2:personname>, when will I be able to live in Vrndavana and be a real Vrajavasi? When will my eyes behold the beautiful forms of the Divine Couple, <st2:personname w:st="on">Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Radha-Krsna</st1:sn></st2:personname>?

(2)

radha-krsna sevon mui jivane marane

tara sthana, <st2:place w:st="on">tara</st2:place> lila dekho ratri-dine

I shall serve <st2:personname w:st="on">Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Radha</st1:sn></st2:personname> and <st2:personname w:st="on">Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Krsna</st1:sn></st2:personname> in life and in death. I shall behold Their transcendental abode and pastimes night and day.

Prarthana (Song 48)

(3)

hari hari ara kabe palatibe dasa

ei saba kariya bame, aba vrndavana dhame,

ei mane kariyachi asa

<st2:personname w:st="on"> O Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Hari</st1:sn></st2:personname>, when will my life change? When will I renounce all worldly affairs and make my way to <st2:personname w:st="on">Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Vrndavana-dhama</st1:sn></st2:personname>? I cherish this hope.

Prarthana (Song 47)

<st2:personname w:st="on"><st1:givenname w:st="on">Srila</st1:givenname> <st1:middlename w:st="on">Bhaktivinoda</st1:middlename> <st1:sn w:st="on">Thakura</st1:sn></st2:personname>:

(4)

dekhite dekhite, bhuliba va kabe,

nija-sthula-paricaya

nayane heriba, vraja-pura-sobha,

nitya cid-ananda-maya

When will I see that I have forgotten my gross bodily identity and am beholding the exquisite beauty of Vraja, full of eternal, spiritual bliss and cognizance.

vrsabhanu-pure, janama laiba, yavate vivaha ha’be

vraja-gopi-bhava, haibe svabhava, ana bhava na rahibe

I shall take birth in Vrsabhanu Maharaja’s town and will marry in the nearby <st2:place w:st="on"><st2:placetype w:st="on">village</st2:placetype> of <st2:placename w:st="on">Yavat</st2:placename></st2:place>. My sole disposition and nature will be that of a cowherd maiden.

nija-siddha-deha, nija-siddha-nama, nija-rupa sva vasana

radha-krpa-bale, labhiba va kabe, krsna-prema-prakarana

When will I obtain, by the power of Radha’s mercy, my own eternal spiritual body, my own realized name and dress embellishing my real form? And when will I receive initiation into the techniques of expressing divine love for Krsna?

yamuna-salila-aharane giya, bujhibo yugala-rasa

prema-mugdha ha’ye, pagalini-praya, gaiba radhara yasa

As I go to draw water from the Yamuna, I will understand the confidential mellows of Yugala-Kisora’s loving affairs. Being captivated by prema, I will sing <st2:personname w:st="on">Sri <st1:sn w:st="on">Radhika</st1:sn></st2:personname>’s glories just like a madwoman.]

<st2:personname w:st="on"><st1:givenname w:st="on">

</st1:givenname></st2:personname>

[Guruvani]

 

There are devotional practices that I engage in because of how I feel afterwards - Like pretty much all of them- from rising for mongal aratik, chanting rounds, serving the devotees. In fact it seems selfish because these types of devotional service make me high - like a potent drug. So I guess it isn't raganuga - because maybe I'm going after the high - but isnt' the high Krsna?

Thats always good to hear.

There are many devotees that can't really admit that chanting the Maha-mantra is nectarean and blissfull.

I sometimes wonder why not?

I think it always has something to do with past attainments in previous lifes.

 

You see some devotees that chant 16 rounds a day for years and they still look morose and depressed.

I can chant four rounds and feel like I just bathed in the fountain of youth.

 

I don't chant as much as I should.

I just gave up on half-hearted efforts.

When the time comes and I am ready to commit with full determination then I will renew my vows and maybe take formal diksha again.

 

I have some serious doubts about my proxy ritvik initiation in ISKCON.

I am not so sure that the representative who gave it to me was really capable and able.

He turned out to be on drugs and engaging in sahajiya affairs.

Then he was murdered by an irate follower.

 

Maybe that is why I am a sahajiya too?

Maybe I deserved a pseudo-proxy initiation from a sahajiya?

 

Hopefully, someday I can do better than that.

[indulekhadasi]

 

Thats always good to hear.

There are many devotees that can't really admit that chanting the Maha-mantra is nectarean and blissfull.

I sometimes wonder why not?

I think it always has something to do with past attainments in previous lifes.

 

You see some devotees that chant 16 rounds a day for years and they still look morose and depressed.

I can chant four rounds and feel like I just bathed in the fountain of youth.

 

I don't chant as much as I should.

I just gave up on half-hearted efforts.

When the time comes and I am ready to commit with full determination then I will renew my vows and maybe take formal diksha again.

 

Prabhuji, you don't need to chant 16 rounds a day to feel a difference. I chant 16 rounds a day but I probably don't feel half the ecstacy that you feel. But I have faith that one day this might change, so I will continue with the 16 rounds. I find that it helps to chant them early in the morning. Of course if you are sleepy that is a different matter.

[Laulyam]

The Origin of Ratha-yatra/ Appendix Pgs.308-311 Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

 

 

APPENDIX

Explanations of Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.39)

from p. 233

In the Second Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Maharaja Pariksit

also explains that the pastimes and activities of Lord Krsna are

medicine for the conditioned souls. If they simply hear about

Krsna they become relieved from the material disease. They are

addicted to material enjoyment and are accustomed to reading

sex literature, but by hearing these transcendental pastimes of

Krsna with the gopis, they will be relieved from material contamination.

The conditioned soul should hear the rasa-lila dance

from an authorized spiritual master and be trained by him so that

he can understand the whole situation; thus one can be elevated

to the highest standard of spiritual life. Otherwise, one will be implicated. Material lust is a kind of heart disease of the conditioned

soul. It is recommended that one should hear, but not

from impersonalist rascals. If one hears from the right sources

with right understanding, then his situation will be different.

(Krsna book, Chapter 32) A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura states as follows in his

Sarartha-darsini commentary on this verse:

The prefix anu (repeatedly or methodically) when applied to

srnuyat (to hear) indicates constant hearing. By continuously

hearing from the lips of the sravana-guru and Vaisnavas and

thereafter reciting, narrating, or describing (those pastimes) in

poetry of one’s own composition, one attains para-bhakti, or in

other words bhakti that is of the nature of prema (premalaksana-

bhakti).

The suffix ktva has been used in the formation of the verb

pratilabhya (obtained) as follows: prati + labh + ktva. According

to the rules of Sanskrit grammar, when the suffix ktva is applied

to a verbal root with a prefix, it is replaced by yap. Then letter p

is dropped and thus the final form of the word pratilabhya is

obtained. The suffix ktva is applied to the first of two verbs performed

by the same agent to show successive action (i.e. having

attained prema, he relinquishes all lusty desires of the heart). In

this case, the first action is pratilabhya (the attainment of prema)

and the second action is apahinoti (renunciation of the lusty

desires of the heart).

Therefore, the suffix ktva in the verb pratilabhya indicates that

although lust and other evils still remain within the heart, premabhakti

first enters the heart and by its extraordinary influence

destroys all vices to the root. In other words, hearing and reciting

rasa-lila possesses such astonishing power that the lust in the

heart of the faithful sadhaka is destroyed and he attains prema.

Though these two take place simultaneously, the influence of

prema manifests first and through its effect, all lusty desires of the

heart are dissipated.

Thus, as a result of hearing and chanting the narrations of the

Lord’s pastimes, one first attains prema for the Lord’s lotus feet

and thereafter one’s heart is liberated from lusty desires and all

other contamination. In other words, he becomes perfectly pure

because prema is not feeble like the processes of jnana and

yoga. Bhakti is omnipotent and supremely independent.

The words hrd-roga kama indicate the difference between

lusty desires of the heart and the kama in relationship to the

Supreme Lord. Kama which is in relationship to the Supreme

Lord is of the very nature of the nectar of prema (premamrtasvarupa),

whereas the lusty desires of the heart are exactly the

opposite. Therefore, these two items are distinct from each other.

This is substantiated by use of the words hrd-roga kama.

The word dhira means a pandita, or one who is learned in the

sastra. One who refuses to accept the claim of this verse and

thinks, “As long as the disease of lust remains in the heart, prema

cannot be obtained,” is said to possess an atheistic temperament.

One who is free from such a foolish, atheistic demeanor is

known as a paëòita or sober person (dhira). Consequently, only

those who have firm faith in the sastra are known as dhira.

Those who have no faith in the statements of the sastras are

atheists and offenders to the holy name. Such persons can never

attain prema.

Consequently, in the heart of the sadhakas who firmly believe

in the statements of the sastra, faith arises by hearing rasa-lila

and other narrations. Only in the hearts of such faithful devotees

does prema manifest its influence as a result of hearing lila-katha.

Thereafter, lust and all evils present within the heart of the

devotees are destroyed to the root.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary on Srimad-

Bhagavatam (10.47.59) is also relevant to the discussion. There

it is stated that bhakti is the only cause of superior qualities being

found in any individual. Austerities, learning, knowledge, and so

on are not the cause of superior qualities. Although bhakti is

itself of the highest excellence, it does not appear only in the

most exceptional individuals endowed with all good qualities.

On the contrary, it may manifest or remain even in the most condemned

and vile persons. Furthermore, it causes thoroughly

wretched and fallen persons to attain all good qualities, to

become worthy of the respect of all, and to attain the highest and

most rare association.

For this reason, the opinion that Bhakti-devi enters the heart only after all anarthas, aparadhas, lust, and other diseases of the heart have been eradicated, is not appropriate:eek2: . On the contrary,by the mercy of the Supreme Lord or the devotees, or by faithfully executing sadhana and bhajana, this rare bhakti enters the heart first and then all anarthas are automatically dissapated- this conclusion is thoroughly agreeable.

Therefore, only faithful sadhakas with firm belief in the statements

of sastra, guru and Vaisnavas are eligible to hear the lila-katha

of Srimad-Bhagavatam that are saturated with rasa. And

conversely, those who believe that only sadhakas who are

completely free from all anarthas are eligible to hear the above mentioned pastimes, will neither become free from anarthas nor

obtain eligibility to hear, even after millions of births.

[sevabhakta]

According to the 16th chapter of Nectar of Devotion, we get the full breakdown.

 

The gradual development of the AMBITION to become like an Vrajabasi devotee is an activity called Raganuga.

 

But we cannot even develop the initial stage of that eagerness or ambition without anartha-nivritti.

 

And how do we get to anartha-nivritti? Following the regulative principles given by the Acharya and confirmed by scripture.

 

So basically, anyone who has not yet followed regulative principles to the point of being free from all material contaminations (anarthas) in their heart cannot possibly even have a REAL concept of the loving attachment of a denizen of Vraja for Krsna.

 

All claims to such are just their own delusion.

 

The first glimmer of eager ambition comes after anartha-nivritti, when a sadhaka recieves the first true glimpse of the love and service mood a Vrajabasi has towards Sri Krsna.

 

Then that ambition grows. And gradual development of that ambition is the Activity considered to be Raganuga sadhana proper.

 

That is the way I read the purport from ch 16 which I will post below.

 

Thus according to the example given in Ch 2 of NOD by Srila Prabhupada, the vaidhi sadhaka is performing regs and the arotik mechanically with faith in the spiritual master, and then one day the anartha's are relieved and they get the glimpse that corresponds with their own unique future desirous service in Vrndaban. From then on, the regs and arotik are performed with love and thus it is considered SPONTANEOUS. So this would be the first stage of the activity of gradual development of their ambition to follow the service mood of a Vrajabasi.

 

Next stop, as per Krsna book ch.28 , a birth in Vrndavana on some Earth planet where Krsna is appearing.

 

 

Ch 16 NOD

 

"Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vṛṣṇis and Vṛndāvana denizens are called rāgānugā devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These rāgānugā devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yaśodā, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called rāgānugā.

We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (Vṛndāvana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination. In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha-nivṛtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination. Sometimes someone is found imitating such devotional love, but factually he is not freed from anarthas, or unwanted habits. It has been seen that a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, Yaśodā or the gopīs, while at the same time his abominable attraction for mundane sex life is visible. Such a manifestation of divine love is mere imitation and has no value. When one is actually spontaneously attracted to the loving principles of the gopīs, there will be found no trace of any mundane contamination in his character.

Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vṛndāvana."

 

 

Ch 2. NOD

 

From Nectar of Devotion, ch 2. 1970 version

 

"Now this sädhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument.

 

Another part of sädhana-bhakti is called rägänugä. Rägänugä refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ärotika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ärotika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sädhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous."

 

 

Krishna Book Ch. 28 p.186

 

"The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their:uzi: first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination."

 

[Guruvani]

 

 

The gradual development of the AMBITION to become like an Vrajabasi devotee is an activity called Raganuga.

 

But we cannot even develop the initial stage of that eagerness or ambition without anartha-nivritti.

 

I ain't arguing that or claiming to practice raganuga-sadhana.

 

What I am trying to say with this topic is that the fall-from-goloka dreamer vadis think they someday they are just going to wake up in Goloka by practicing vaidhi-sadhana without ever practicing or attaining to raganuga sadhana.

 

The dreamervadi theory ingnores and negates raganuga sadhana with their fairytale theory because they think they already have a spiritual form in Goloka and an established rasa with Krishna so all they need to do is wake up and realize that.

 

Well, that theory is wrong.

One must choose a parshada of Krishna to be his role model and practice raganuga sadhana to develop a relationship with Krishna in that mood.

 

It's not already there sleeping in Goloka.

It has to be cultivated from the bhakti-lata-bija.

 

If you don't get the bhakti-lata-bija and cultivate that through raganuga bhakti then you can never attain a spiritual form or a rasa with Krishna.

 

The fall-from-goloka fairytale has all sorts of apa-siddhantic effects.

That is my point with this topic.

[Kulapavana]

After 40 years and a long history of problems in this area, many Iskcon members have very little understanding of the basic principles of guru-disciple relationship, what to speak of raganuga bhakti. See the story of Balabhadra's (Scottland) fall-down and reactions of his disciples as reported in the official GBC statement (posted on Dandavats).

 

Myths, speculations, apa-siddhantic concoctions, plain lies and distortions litter the philosophical landscape in our movement. I dont expect raganuga bhakti to flourish in this kind of environment.

[sevabhakta]

Hari Bol Prabhu

 

 

What I am trying to say with this topic is that the fall-from-goloka dreamer vadis think they someday they are just going to wake up in Goloka by practicing vaidhi-sadhana without ever practicing or attaining to raganuga sadhana

 

LOL, it seems that some of them even go so far as to claim that through interpreting Srila Prabhupada's letters to other devotees, they "realized" they are already awake in Goloka. They are now looking down from Goloka upon me and you and others who don't "get it" saying to us...

 

Wake up and join me in my nitya siddha body serving Krsna's lotus feet in Goloka. Don't mind the fact that I have this western karmi body and am appearing to you on earth saying this. You are still dreaming those distinctions, while I, although to your senses are appearing to be speaking to you on earth on this topic, am ACTUALLY IN GOLOKA RIGHT NOW IN MY NITYA SIDDHA SWARUPA POPPING LADUS IN KRSNA'S MOUTH.

 

The way I see it, all any leader in Iskcon would need to do is to prescribe the Vaidhi Bhakti regulative functions of Temple and Farm community life as per Srila Prahbupada's exact instructions, limiting all disciples to the reading of the 4 books Srila Prabhupada said were essential, and Raganuga will automatically emerge for each and every sadhaka.

 

Iskcon has changed the sadhana and the books. Ergo; NO RAGANUGA.

 

Thanks for the topic and discussion Guruvani. Dandavat Pranams.

 

ys

 

Sevabhakta

[cbrahma]

Even Prabhupada chanted his rounds.

I agree it seems that ISKCON's manifest goal is to kill whatever spontaneity might creep up. A kind of toughness test, to see if one can trudge through the desert of tasteless artificial sadhana. Goloka would be the reward for sticking it through the drought.

Having said that, even raganugas followed the rules.