The impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha, where did it come from?

[Svarupa]

Many devotees cannot understand where the impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha comes from. One does not have to go far to see how this has happened. Other sects other than ISKCON often quote their interpretation of the Vedas in their claim that the jiva has originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, never been to Goloka or that once going there they can never fall down, these ideas Srila Prabhupada rejected.

Unfortunately it is the impersonal influence of other sects that wrongly explain the Impersonal origins of the jiva that has put the impersonal murkiness on the word ‘tatastha’ that will be correctly explained in the next paragraph. It is those groups and their teachers that have polluted the correct personal teachings of the Vedas.

Again it must be understood we never ever originated from jiva-tatastha consciousness, spark, ray of light, a 'borderline consciousness’ because we are all eternally nitya-siddha-vigraha .

Try to understand that what these other impersonal groups are teaching, for example - 'The jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world (tatastha)".

This idea is completely bogus because the marginal living entity is eternally nitya-siddha and is perpetually in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving beautiful <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

The only way the marginal living entity can vacate that eternal place and the 'svarupa' body they serve Krishna as in Goloka beyond the mundane divided time and space of the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, is in their ‘dreams’ or ‘thoughts’, if they foolishly choose to miss use their free will and give up serving Krishna. When that choice is made, the living entity immediately activates their lower nitya-baddha consciousness.

Therefore it is only this secondary conscious dreaming state of the living entity that can be also known as jiva-tatastha, jiva s'akti. jiva prakriti, jiva bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions that describe the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousnesses journey throughout the mahat-tattva (material creation) or Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti ASPECT OF THEIR OWN MARGINAL CONSCIOUSNESS.

It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.

Conclusion - The word tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.

According that description, those who claim we are originally tatastha are wrong and either misunderstood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or misinterpreted the word, or both. The fact is in our original 'svarupa' bodily form serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is not only our original position but also our eternal position; therefore we have never ever been tatastha (BORDERLINE) from that viewpoint and never will be, Why? Because we have never been borderline! We have always been nitya-siddha..

This does not mean we cannot manifest jiva-tatastha or borderline consciousness. That can only be attained from the marginal living entities DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness outside the eternal personal <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>Kingdom</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Krishna Goloka</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> or Vaikuntha.

The problem with many other sects in todays impersonal and materialistic society, is their gurus constantly not only claim we originated from tatastha (with the underlining emphases it is an impersonal origin) but also claim we have never been to Vaikuntha, claiming once their no-one returns, It is obvious that according to their philosophy if we never originated from Vaikuntha, then we must have come from a Impersonal beginning

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other sects of religion and philosophy, are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form known as the Brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'.

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

In other words all of us have a spiritual 'svarupa' body that has always been in Goloka or Vaikuntha without beginning and without end. What other impersonally polluted camps call the Brahmajyoti is actually the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. The full potential of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is the personal devotional active Vaikuntha planets and the central Goloka-Vrndavana Planet of Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. The final conclusion is that the word tatastha is implicated as an impersonal state of the jiva due to the idea coming from other sects that promote that the jiva originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. It is them that claim tatastha is a 'borderline' state of inactive consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada has made it very clear that we are already in Goloka but are now 'thinking' or 'dreaming' we are not.

Read all the quotes above that clearly explain Srila Prabhupadas position on our original position.

It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.

According to the translation that tatastha means borderline, those who claim we are originally tatastha (borderline) are wrong and either misunderstood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or misinterpreted the word, or both. The fact is in our original 'svarupa' bodily form serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is not only our original position but also our eternal position; therefore we have never ever been tatastha (BORDERLINE) from that viewpoint and never will be, Why? Because we have never been borderline! We have always been nitya-siddha.

[Guruvani]

This is typical sleepvervadi concoction.

 

There is not one shastric reference in the above post.

 

This is what the sleepervadis do.

They concoct, distort, twist and manipulate to extrapolate myths and fairytales and inflate their false ego.

 

These guys aren't fooling anybody but themselves.

Their fairytale castle of dreamervadis has already fallen like a house of cards but they are just in denial.

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109

 

jīvera 'svarūpa' haya — kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa'

kṛṣṇera 'taṭasthā-śakti' 'bhedābheda-prakāśa'

sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya

svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra 'śakti' haya

 

SYNONYMS

jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the constitutional position; haya — is; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nitya-dāsa — eternal servant; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; taṭasthā — marginal; śakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakāśa — manifestation; sūrya-aḿśa — part and parcel of the sun; kiraṇa — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvālā-caya — molecular particle of fire; svābhāvika — naturally; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; tina-prakāra — three varieties; śakti — energies; haya — there are.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.

 

 

PURPORT

Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explains these verses as follows: Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Kṛṣṇa's marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Kṛṣṇa as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire." Another explanation of these verses can be found in Ādi-līlā, Chapter Two, verse 96.

 

[Guruvani]

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Guruvani]

Tatastha shakti only exists between the material amd spiritual potencies.

There is no marginal tatastha shakti in Goloka.

 

Marginal means that it is between the two energies.

That plane is the Viraja.

The jivas of the material world were manifested at that marginal position by the glance of Maha-Vishnu.

 

They didn't fall from Goloka nor are they in Goloka dreaming.

They are in the material world dreaming.

They are very confused.

They don't study the shastra.

 

They write their own.

[Svarupa]

Shambhuddhi dasa’s (Guruvani) understanding on <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness is totally misleading.

I don’t know if he is an impersonalist but that is the idea that he conveys:

ie - “In conclusion, Lord Caitanya does not teach that the constitutional position of the soul is anything more than impersonal realization of Lord Krishna in his impersonal Brahman effulgence.” That is Shambhuddhi’s own nonsense impersonalist conclusion. Such nonsense is not what Srila Prabhupada explains nor is what Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja is saying in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, nor the conclusion of the acaryas.

The fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a perpetual spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Fighting the war against Impersonalism and those who claim the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is the real war going on in human society. The war where the Personalist fight the impersonal we all must fight.

[Guruvani]

 

Fighting the war against Impersonalism and those who claim the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is the real war going on in human society. The war where the Personalist fight the impersonal we all must fight.

The only war you need to fight is a war with your own mind and your own fairytale imaginations that you are trying to pass off as the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Before you go to defeat something, you first have to be on the right side of the fight.

You aren't.

[Svarupa]

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'. What dribble!!

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

 

[Svarupa]

The Impersonalists further claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 0.75pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti<v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 0.75pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"> <v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>, their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva<v:shape id=_x0000_i1027 style="WIDTH: 0.75pt; HEIGHT: 0.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"> <v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.

This impersonal understanding is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada. The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Therefore it is the impersonal ideas that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ as impersonal.

[sevabhakta]

 

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'. What dribble!!

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

 

The claim that a spiritual spark that emanates from the body of the Lord himself is not sat chit ananda vigraha, but is actually impersonal.

 

According to Lord Krsna's vision, every part of him serves his pleasure. So there is no living entity who is not originally and constitutionally serving his pleasure. The difference is whether or not the entity realizes it or not.

 

It is simply not possible for a living entity that is consciously aware of how much Krsna loves him and loves the type of service he is providing to fall into love with Maha Maya.

 

A conditioned Jiva like me was originally serving Krsna's pleasure without my personal volitional awareness. I didn't understand his love for me, so I was attracted to Maha Maya's allure instead.

 

They probably also believe that a Surabhi cow in Goloka is impersonal because it is not a person.

[Svarupa]

All living entities are constitutionally 'persons' yet can 'dream' or 'think' they are impersonal. We are all nitya-siddha right now with Krishna but we are presently dreaming and thinking otherwise that makes our present awareness nitya-baddha or 'dreaming' consciousness.

 

The word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from those who think our original possition is nitya-baddha and we must develope our nitya-siddha bodily identity when we enter Goloka. Such understanding by even big, big caste Brahmana's, Guru's and pandits are incorrect because our nitya-siddha body is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha even while we chase our mistaken dreams in the material world as nitya-baddha (the sub-conscious dreaming condition of the marginal living entity).

 

The Impersonalists claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. They claim that within the brahmajyoti , their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They further claim that from the nondifferentiation condition of the marginal living entity, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.

 

This impersonal understanding that the living entity originates from the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

 

The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha as previously explained in so many quotations from Srila Prabhupada.

 

Therefore it is the impersonal idea that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ or the living entity as impersonal

 

The fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a perpetual spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

 

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'.

 

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

 

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of Krishna that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

 

A further fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity fascilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu. And yes ones nitya-siddha body maybe that of a cow or peacock however, such rasa realationships can change in Vaikuntha and Goloka. Such high levels of Krishna's pastimes can only be understood through selfless devotional service and not through book knowledge and jnana. In our material contaminated state we will only see contradictions.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

By doing bhajana, by daily chanting Hare Krsna and hearing hari-katha in the correct process, with very strong belief, then, according to your advancement in bhajana, you can realize all the truths regarding this world and that absolute transcendental world. Logic will not satisfy you. One logical argument will defeat all other arguments, and then another logical argument will come and defeat all the previous arguments. Mundane logic and argument have no existence in the spiritual world.

svatah siddho vedo hari dayita vedhah prabhrtitah

pramanam sat praptam pramiti visayan tan nava vidhan

tatha pratyaksadi pramiti sahitam sadhayati nah

na yuktis tarkakhya pravisati tatha sakti rahita

"The self evident Vedas, which has been received in the sampradaya through guru parampara by recipients of Sri Hari's mercy, such as Brahmaji and others, are known as amnaya-vakya. The nine prayema tattvas are established by those amnaya-vakyas with the help of the other sastras, along with different types of evidence such as direct sense perception (pratyaksa), inasmuch as thy confirm the Vedic version. Reasoning that is only based on logic is always crippled when evaluating inconceivable subject matters, since logic and argument have no access in the realm of the inconceivable." (Dasamula 1)

 

 

[sevabhakta]

 

All living entities are constitutionally 'persons' yet can 'dream' or 'think' they are impersonal. We are all nitya-siddha right now with Krishna but we are presently dreaming and thinking otherwise that makes our present awareness nitya-baddha or 'dreaming' consciousness.

 

The word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from those who think our original possition is nitya-baddha and we must develope our nitya-siddha bodily identity when we enter Goloka. Such understanding by even big, big caste Brahmana's, Guru's and pandits are incorrect because our nitya-siddha body is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha even while we chase our mistaken dreams in the material world as nitya-baddha (the sub-conscious dreaming condition of the marginal living entity).

 

The Impersonalists claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. They claim that within the brahmajyoti , their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They further claim that from the nondifferentiation condition of the marginal living entity, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.

 

This impersonal understanding that the living entity originates from the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

 

The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha as previously explained in so many quotations from Srila Prabhupada.

 

Therefore it is the impersonal idea that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ or the living entity as impersonal

 

The fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a perpetual spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

 

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'.

 

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

 

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of Krishna that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

 

A further fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity fascilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu. And yes ones nitya-siddha body maybe that of a cow or peacock however, such rasa realationships can change in Vaikuntha and Goloka. Such high levels of Krishna's pastimes can only be understood through selfless devotional service and not through book knowledge and jnana. In our material contaminated state we will only see contradictions.

 

Well sleepyhead, I dare you to read the following purport from the Acharya and tell us how Jiva's who are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord are impersonal.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times.

 

SB 1.14.32-33

 

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

 

Nitya siddha means eternally perfected in liberation.

 

If you are still making mistakes here on earth, that should be your only concern. Not what is "happening eternally in Goloka" which is presently beyond your ability to experience and comprehend.

 

Perfect your sadhana, and then you will realize the actual experience of being siddha.

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada has clearly explained we are presently in Goloka or Vaikuntha, yet presently dreaming we are in the material creation - Jai Prabhupada.

Due to the absents of time in Vaikuntha and Goloka, the so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya as well as all marginal living entities who use their free will to activate their non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha lower self, only manifests within the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that is under the jurisdiction of past, present and future.

There is however, a difference in that Jaya and Vijaya offended pure devotee's, never the less, they still had to take birth as demons in the material creation. Even though they where in demon bodies, they were still <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is that they never ever stopped thinking how they hated <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

This is the part or drama Jaya and Vijaya played in the Lords pastimes. On the other hand, ALL other marginal living entities can choose to leave Goloka, not as their eternal nitya-siddha svarupa body, but as a secondary dreaming nitya-siddha consciousness thai can only attain bodily form from Maha-Vishnu, this is the only way ALL MARGINAL LIVING ENTITIES can leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and take refuge in His mahat-tattva temporary dreams (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

There is no time in Vaikuntha or Goloka, so after playing their parts dreaming as demons in the mahat-tattva, on returning to their perpetual duty as gate keepers, it was if they NEVER left. The so called fall down of Jaya and Vijaya is just a dream, like any marginal living entity who 'falls down' from Vaikuntha, they also only dreamt they had become demons.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake". Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious bodily svarupa constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young.

There is nothing missing in Goloka because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies in unlimited various transcendental forms that can only be revealed when one reestablishes their original Krishna Consciousness. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out on being our genuine perpetual bodily identity that we have always been. Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Krishna. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”.

 

[sevabhakta]

Where does it end. Now Perfect loving servants who are eternal associates of the Lord who come to the material world are using their free will to "activate and inhabit" a "nitya baddha lower self".

 

I suppose Sri Uddhava who is refered to as a liberated eternal associate, but still a marginal jiva, is inhabiting a nitya baddha lower self body when he appears within the material realm to play with Krsna.

 

Insane.

 

The mahat tattva never touchs Uddhava or Jaya or Vijaya when they are swimming amidst it completely protected by the Hladini Shakti of the Cit Shakti, immersed in blissful hatred or separation or reunion.

 

Just imagine a bubble of the Hladini Shakti enveloping such perfected Siddhas when they are here.

 

No "etherial biological vessels" for them.

 

How offensive to suggest. Bas.

 

Until you are realizing your presense in Goloka, or sensing it wherever you go within the Material realm, Srila Prabhupada's statement that you are originally nitya-siddha means NOTHING, except perhaps a glimmer of hope for the rank neophyte to keep up the regs.

 

I dare you to say otherwise.

 

Hare Krsna

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

The Sleeper-Vadi Theory is based on certain analogies given by Srila Prabhupada to neophytes to help them with a basic understanding.

Again:

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

[Svarupa]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Below is the drawing by an eight year old Gurukula boy explaing in his painting how the marginal living entity leaves their svarupa body in Goloka or Vaikuntha and experiences the mahat-tattva as their nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness

 

 

 

 

 

 

This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

 

Because the Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe).

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

 

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

 

 

 

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

 

This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

 

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

[Beggar]

‘By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila

5.22, Purport

Does this mean that Milton was a Gaudiya Vaisnava acarya? No way Jose. It's just an example. It seems many of Prabhupada's so-called followers are just plain bewildered by his analogies and the apparent contradictions. Oh well, it is Kali Yuga after all. This philosophy is so simple that even an eight year old can understand the subtle nuances of the Gaudiya Siddhanta! Time to grow up, if its possible!

[Svarupa]

So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease. Mahesh dasa (02-07-07)

 

Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic -

 

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification.

 

Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

 

Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

 

FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT.

 

But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

 

Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only.

 

Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second.

 

For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons.

 

This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent.

 

Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure.

 

There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss.

 

Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down.

 

But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

BECAUSE HE FALLS DOWN FROM BRAHMASAYUJYA, HE THINKS THAT MAY BE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRSNA.

 

So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions?

 

So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

 

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery.

 

But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead.

 

The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila.

 

Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream.

 

Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime.

 

Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila.

 

But differences we see under different conditions.

 

Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered.

 

But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

760708ed.wdc Conversations

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT. ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA. FIND OUT THIS VERSE.

 

Pusta Krsna:

iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

 

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

 

Prabhupada: Purport.

 

Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies.

 

This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

 

Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

 

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this

 

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

 

Vipina: And no love.

 

Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

 

69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

Regarding your question, "what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?",

 

In the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya's atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world.

 

In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. for the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole vedic literature.

[Svarupa]

 

 

 

The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete.

 

A SPIRIT SOUL WHO FALLS DOWN FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI TO THE KINGDOM OF MAYA MAY HAVE A CHANCE OF ASSOCIATING WITH A PURE DEVOTEE, AND THEN HE MAY BE ELEVATED TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS OF VAIKUNTHA OR TO GOLOKA VRINDABAN. FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI THERE IS NO DIRECT PROMOTION TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS, AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE BHAGAVATAM THAT SUCH SOULS FALL DOWN: PATANTY ADHA.

 

70-02-27.Jag Letter: Jagadisa

Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.

 

USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. BUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY IT IS FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA, SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED BY THE PROCESS OF HEARING THE HOLY NAME OF KRSNA AND THEN THE DEVOTEE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD WHICH IS HIS ORIGINAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LIVING ENTITY WITH KRSNA IS ETERNAL AS BOTH KRSNA AND THE LIVING ENTITY ARE ETERNAL; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.

 

70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?

 

THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH MINUTE INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THEIR NATURE AND THIS MINUTE INDEPENDENCE MAY BE UTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS THE CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN BY MISUSE OF ONE'S INDEPENDENCE. BUT THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY FIXED UP IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA ARE MAKING PROPER USE OF THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND SO THEY DO NOT FALL DOWN.

 

67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called Maya.

 

There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So as ETERNAL SERVITORS OF KRISHNA--OUR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION--WE FALL DOWN WHEN WE TRY TO BECOME THE ENJOYER, IMITATING KRISHNA. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya

 

Krishna consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position. Please therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself, by His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically. I shall, of course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have.

 

69-06-07. Letter: Uttamasloka

Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to receive your letter (undated), and I have noted the contents that you had left the temple but now you have returned again. This is most encouraging, because it means that Krishna is very kind upon you. Although you left Him, He did not allow you to go away. It is His special favor upon you.

 

As individuals there may be disagreement sometimes, but that is quite natural. Even in ordinary family affairs there is sometimes disagreement, but that does not mean immediately the disagreeing members shall leave the family. Similarly our Krishna Consciousness Movement means we are all gathering together in families of Krishna.

 

ACTUALLY WE ARE ETERNAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE LORD, BUT DUE TO OUR MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE WE HAVE NOW FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA, EXACTLY LIKE A MAN WHO IS MAD FORGETS HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIP AND LOITERS IN THE STREET.

 

But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna's family. So we are trying to establish a replica of Krishna's family in this material world wherein there is no material activities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To avoid the material activities (dreams) within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu means to follow the four regulative principles and to engage ourselves constantly in Krishna Consciousness activities and to have the association of pure devotees. We should not give indulgence to our senses more than what is required just to keep body and soul together. We should not engage ourselves in very difficult tasks, and we should not talk anything more than what is necessary for spreading Krishna Consciousness.

 

We should follow the regulative principles, regard being had to situation, circumstances and objectives. We should not be greedy and we should not mix with persons not interested in Krishna. In this way, we can make steady progress and maintain our membership in Krishna's family. Thus, at the end of this life we will enter actually into the spiritual world. So your main business should be to spread Sankirtana, becoming tolerant as the tree and becoming humbler than the grass.

 

If you have anytime any difficulty, please try to settle up in the above way, but do not leave the company of devotees. That will not help you, even though there may seem to be some difficulties.

 

.740606BG.GEN Lectures

Just like father gives some capital to the son: "You do some business." Now, you lose the money or increase it hundred times; that depends on you. Similarly, Krsna has given us. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and Krsna has given us. THE FIRST BEGINNING BODY IS BRAHMA, VERY EXALTED BODY. BUT ON ACCOUNT OF OUR ABOMINABLE ACTIVITIES, FROM BRAHMA, WE COME DOWN TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL. This is called karma, ksetra.

 

Bg Introduction

Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA.

 

By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.

 

Note: the Gaudiya math’s Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri maharaja etc cannot accept Srila Prabhupada even when Srila Prabhupada has quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.

 

The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.

 

SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi

Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage--the stage of observing the rules and regulations--and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord.

 

The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA 'SVARUPA' HAYA--KRSNERA 'NITYA-DASA': "Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA." As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage.

 

Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of "I" and mine

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It really *is* strange. Either all the names are pseudonyms for one person, or they are all suffering from the same ailment.

 

I've been begging all along for them to properly cite and quote their sources. I used to try to read everything they posted, but now I find much of it is redundant, so I've given up.

 

Now, it's just like the droning of the bees to me (no doubt the *bees* are also trying to tell me something, but I cannot hear it).

 

 

I noticed one tactic of the Sleeping Monkeyvadis is that they will appear to use a quote from Srila Prabhupada but then not enclose it in quotes and append their own mental concoction as if it was part and parcel of what Srila Prabhupada was saying.

 

Of course what else can you expect from a person who is conditioned but thinks they are already liberated.

[sevabhakta]

 

It really *is* strange. Either all the names are pseudonyms for one person, or they are all suffering from the same ailment.

 

I've been begging all along for them to properly cite and quote their sources. I used to try to read everything they posted, but now I find much of it is redundant, so I've given up.

 

Now, it's just like the droning of the bees to me (no doubt the *bees* are also trying to tell me something, but I cannot hear it).

 

It is certainly one or maybe two. Sarva Gattah may be an individual, but Vigraha and Swarupa are one and the same.

 

I believe I baited the Cheif of the Sleepyhead Vadi's into check mate just moments ago on the "marginal jivas do not always become...." thread.

 

Sorry to see it play out like that, but the offenses will be too much for that poor soul to bear, and those of weak sastric knowledge may be defenseless against his fertile mind's sophisticated wordsmithing, so I pointed out a plain and simple fact just now, and there is really no escape for he wrote what he wrote.

 

Of course with a single post, the Cheif can probably cut and paste so much irrelevant out of context rubbish that he will bury my expose two pages deep.

 

Such is the nature of a forum where there is no Vedic Master declaring victory amidst debaters.

 

Hmmm, on that note, I wonder what I am even doing here. I guess it is just practice for the big show, when I actually learn Sastra well enough to preach from memory in a couple lifetimes.

 

Them will be good days!

 

Hari Bol

[Svarupa]

 

 

 

 

 

To avoid the material activities (dreams) within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu means to follow the four regulative principles CHANT 16 ROUNDS A DAY and to engage ourselves constantly in Krishna Consciousness activities and to have the association of pure devotees. We should not give indulgence to our senses more than what is required just to keep body and soul together. We should not engage ourselves in very difficult tasks, and we should not talk anything more than what is necessary for spreading Krishna Consciousness.

By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.

 

 

 

KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.

 

The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.

[Svarupa]

KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.

The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.