The impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha, where did it come from?

[Vedesu]

Now we arrive at the crux of the matter. This has been the recurring theme for this person and his assorted array of sock puppets from the get-go. (I had to put him on ignore several months back, as a matter of survival if I am to continue visiting here.) He was even called out on Dandavats by hard-core Iskcon members for blasheming non-Iskcon Sadhus. Srila Prabhupada never, I repeat NEVER had any issue whatsoever with his Godbrothers and Gaudiya Math relations regarding philosophical issues such as Jiva Tattva. He would not have invited them to join his preaching mission if he had. He never accused them of being impersonalists. Bell ringers perhaps. Envious of his success perhaps. But the real impersonalists are those who cannot offer proper respects to non-institutional Sadhus from a distance, as Srila Prabhupada ordered. From a distance, they bark like rabid, frothing dogs. If Srila Prabhupada had felt that Jiva Tattva was such a major issue with his Godbrothers, he would never have instructed: "never mind what is your origin."

 

I respect your diligence in defeating this impersonalism, Guruvani prabhu. Keep up the good work and tell it like it is. Wish I could join you, but I have long since lost my taste for argueing with Finished Professors and Mr. Answerman types. Knowingly or unknowingly they are attempting to destroy this Movement from within, posing as scholars and engaging in wordsmithing, deceitful tactics, (i.e. attributing quotes to Srila Prabhupada which he never said), and ad-hominem attacks.

[Sarva gattah]

Let’s all try to humbly and intelligently understand this topic with a cool head, bad mouthing each other is not the way of aspiring Vaishnavas.

To start with lets not name any other Hindu sect's impersonal beliefs on our origins because there is so many of them and as far as I am concerned any group who claims the marginal living entity comes from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or jiva-tatastha (borderline) are either impersonalists or effected by impersonalism.

If someone said "I just appeared and had no mother or father" I would be offended, that’s an insult to my parents. In other words all of us come from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s personal pastime in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Although that does not mean they cannot become personalist and realize they already have a perpetual 'svarupa' body eternally situated is a rasa relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is forever without beginning and end.

Now let’s look at this in a clear way.

If our perpetual body is always in Goloka or Vrndavana as nitya-siddha, then what is the jiva-tatastha referring to?

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada - 'They are to be awakened to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya.

Srila prabhupada - "I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, “Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there.” So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that’s all.

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually we don’t forget. It is temporary. Ātma-mayam ṛte. It is only it is action of God’s external energy. Because I wanted to forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, therefore <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankīrtana.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.4

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Japan, <st1:date Month="4" Day="22" Year="1972">April 22, 1972</st1:date>

full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan

This word tatastha according to its description certainly does not and can never refer to ones higher 'svarupa' self or nitya-siddha body that is eternally situated and founded in BEAUTUL Goloka OR Vaikuntha.

Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

So what does jiva-tatastha and all the descriptions found in shastra, really referring to?

The answer is quite simple.

Tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom. Such nitya-baddha consciousness is therefore transferred to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and His maha-tattva creation.

Please read that paragraph again to understand us, the marginal living entities, DO NOT ORIGINATE FROM TATASTHA because our ORIGINAL position is already established perpetually in Goloka as an individual servant of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in a particular rasa that has eternally been going on.

Factually we will never understand this until we are SELFLESSLY <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious. We will never understand this from only reading books - it can only fully come from personal realizations by the grace of Prabhupada and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

The tatastha condition of consciousness is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, dreaming within the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu, or within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that is the space in-between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

The confusion and contradictions in trying to understand this, is only there is shastra when one cannot appreciate what the Vedas are referring to. In most cases when the shastra refers to the terminology 'jiva' it is referring to jiva-tatastha, jiva-tattva etc which is the nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT ones nitya-siddha higher self.

Understanding this understands the secret of the Vedanta.

Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn't is scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City>

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport" letter to Australian Devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita.(Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[Sarva gattah]

Let’s all try to humbly and intelligently understand this topic with a cool head, bad mouthing each other is not the way of aspiring Vaishnavas.

To start with lets not name any other Hindu sect's impersonal beliefs on our origins because there is so many of them and as far as I am concerned any group who claims the marginal living entity comes from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or jiva-tatastha (borderline) are either impersonalists or effected by impersonalism.

If someone said "I just appeared and had no mother or father" I would be offended, that’s an insult to my parents. In other words all of us come from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comAlthough that does not mean they cannot become personalist and realize they already have a perpetual 'svarupa' body eternally situated is a rasa relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is forever without beginning and end.

Now let’s look at this in a clear way.

If our perpetual body is always in Goloka or Vrndavana as nitya-siddha, then what is the jiva-tatastha referring to?

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada - 'They are to be awakened to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya.

Srila prabhupada - "I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, “Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there.” So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that’s all.

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually we don’t forget. It is temporary. Ātma-mayam ṛte. It is only it is action of God’s external energy. Because I wanted to forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, therefore <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankīrtana.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.4

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Japan, <st1:date Month="4" Day="22" Year="1972">April 22, 1972</st1:date>

full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan

This word tatastha according to its description certainly does not and can never refer to ones higher 'svarupa' self or nitya-siddha body that is eternally situated and founded in BEAUTUL Goloka OR Vaikuntha.

Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

So what does jiva-tatastha and all the descriptions found in shastra, really referring to?

The answer is quite simple.

Tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom. Such nitya-baddha consciousness is therefore transferred to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and His maha-tattva creation.

Please read that paragraph again to understand us, the marginal living entities, DO NOT ORIGINATE FROM TATASTHA because our ORIGINAL position is already established perpetually in Goloka as an individual servant of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in a particular rasa that has eternally been going on.

Factually we will never understand this until we are SELFLESSLY <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious. We will never understand this from only reading books - it can only fully come from personal realizations by the grace of Prabhupada and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

The tatastha condition of consciousness is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, dreaming within the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu, or within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that is the space in-between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

The confusion and contradictions in trying to understand this, is only there is shastra when one cannot appreciate what the Vedas are referring to. In most cases when the shastra refers to the terminology 'jiva' it is referring to jiva-tatastha, jiva-tattva etc which is the nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT ones nitya-siddha higher self.

Understanding this understands the secret of the Vedanta.

Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn't is scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City>

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport" letter to Australian Devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita.(Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[Sarva gattah]

Part 2 - Let’s humbly try to explain this subject with the help of Srila Prabhupada, so we can understand our Original constitutional position and how we are now in the material creation.

In simply English, not only do we ORIGINALLY come from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

The answer is quite simple; tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom.

So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn’t scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City>

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu understands this but believes others must personally come to this realization‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107)

This verse means our relationship is already there in Goloka beyond the mahat-tattva aspect of time and space.

In other words we are already in Goloka we just have to be selflessly Krishna Conscious to realize our 'svarupa' body that instantaneously eradicates our present mundane nitya-baddha consciousness like light dissipates darkness.

Conclusion - We are not jiva-tatastha in our ORIGINAL position because we are nitya-siddha and always have been. Only in the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti can our lower nitya-baddha consciousness appear as borderline or jiva-tatastha

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

There is really no argument because we are always serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> yet sometimes dream we are not, it’s as simple as that.

Srila Prabhupada – “All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

In other words even when one is off dreaming in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, their svarupa body is ALWAYS SERVING <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> regardless.

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' secondary consciousness or lower self manifests as jiva-tatastha while our ‘svarupa’ or nitya-siddha body remains undisturbed always in Goloka.

Devotee –“Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Month="7" Day="30" Year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’ or dream we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen – it is simply a condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position" Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Month="8" Day="27" Year="1967">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition.

Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity"<st1:date Month="4" Day="20" Year="1972">April 20, 1972</st1:date>, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity.

Once again, we can not understand this through book knowledge alone; we must have realizations as Hari Sauri Prabhu once explained to me a long time ago.

[Sarva gattah]

Part 2 - Let’s humbly try to explain this subject with the help of Srila Prabhupada, so we can understand our Original constitutional position and how we are now in the material creation.

In simply English, not only do we ORIGINALLY come from You can also find so many quotes from Srila Prabhupada that do back up your concept of that all jivas are tatastha, I am aware of them all however, Srila Prabhupada clearly states in simple English - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam

4.28.54, purport)

Once again could there be no confusion on this issue or argument because by manifesting as our nitya-baddha consciousness, then in that condition all jiva’s are tatastha because it is the lower conscious state of the marginal living entity (the higher state being ones nitya-siddha svarupa perpetual body beyond mundane time and space).

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Now let’s look at this in a clear way.

If our perpetual body is always in Goloka or Vrndavana as nitya-siddha, then what is the jiva-tatastha referring to?

This word according to its description does not and can never refer to ones higher 'svarupa' self or nitya-siddha body that is eternally situated and founded in beautiful Goloka or Vaikuntha. So what does jiva tatastha and all the descriptions in shastra really referring to?

The answer is quite simple; tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

.

[font=' alt='> <st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom.

So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn’t scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City>

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu understands this but believes others must personally come to this realization‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107)

This verse means our relationship is already there in Goloka beyond the mahat-tattva aspect of time and space.

In other words we are already in Goloka we just have to be selflessly Krishna Conscious to realize our 'svarupa' body that instantaneously eradicates our present mundane nitya-baddha consciousness like light dissipates darkness.

Conclusion - We are not jiva-tatastha in our ORIGINAL position because we are nitya-siddha and always have been. Only in the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti can our lower nitya-baddha consciousness appear as borderline or jiva-tatastha

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

There is really no argument because we are always serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> yet sometimes dream we are not, it’s as simple as that.

Srila Prabhupada – “All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

In other words even when one is off dreaming in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, their svarupa body is ALWAYS SERVING <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> regardless.

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' secondary consciousness or lower self manifests as jiva-tatastha while our ‘svarupa’ or nitya-siddha body remains undisturbed always in Goloka.

Devotee –“Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Month="7" Day="30" Year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’ or dream we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen – it is simply a condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position" Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Month="8" Day="27" Year="1967">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition.

Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity"<st1:date Month="4" Day="20" Year="1972">April 20, 1972</st1:date>, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity.

Once again, we can not understand this through book knowledge alone; we must have realizations as Hari Sauri Prabhu once explained to me a long time ago.

[sevabhakta]

Dearest Sarva Swarupa Vigraha Gattah,

 

Well Perhaps you could humbly and mercifully explain to all the eternally conditioned wayward Jivas you are so kindly glancing at, exactly your current experience in Goloka Vrndavana.

 

And since this is your current and eternal state, I couldn't imagine you would be at all displeased by giving us a running commentary of your nectarean experiences in personal service with the object of our neophyte mechanical pseudo-love, Sri Krsna.

 

So far, inconceivably, you have not explained any of what you are experiencing in this reagard, and appear to just be a fallen soul like us, quoting and even sometimes mis-paraphrasing an Acharya, but like I said this is apparently due to the inconceivability of your status as a niyta-siddha mahabhagavata currently serving in Goloka, so I beg you please relieve yourself of the dry taste you must have and share the nectar.

 

If this is too confidential, I beg your pardon for such arrogant insolence.

[sevabhakta]

[Svarupa]

By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.

 

 

KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa': "Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.

 

The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA 'NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.

 

SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi

Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage--the stage of observing the rules and regulations--and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord.

 

The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA 'SVARUPA' HAYA--KRSNERA 'NITYA-DASA': "Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA." As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage.

 

Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of "I" and mine

[Vigraha]

If someone said "I just appeared and had no mother or father" I would be offended, that’s an insult to my parents.

 

In the same way anyone who says we do not personally come from Krishna but His impersonal feature, is an insult to Krishna's personal form.

 

All svarupa seems to be saying is that anyone, hoodoo guru or demon, who states the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are actually insulting Krishna. and I also agree it is an insult.

 

In other words all of us come from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s personal pastime in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

<FONT]<FONT size="4">Devotee –“Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:city><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:city>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:city><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:city>, on <st1:date month="7" day="30" year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada - 'They are to be awakened to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya.

Srila prabhupada - "I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, “Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there.” So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that’s all.

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually we don’t forget. It is temporary. Ātma-mayam ṛte. It is only it is action of God’s external energy. Because I wanted to forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, therefore <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankīrtana.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.4

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Japan, <st1:date month="4" day="22" year="1972">April 22, 1972</st1:date>

full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan

[sevabhakta]

 

Dearest Sarva Swarupa Vigraha Gattah,

 

Well Perhaps you could humbly and mercifully explain to all the eternally conditioned wayward Jivas you are so kindly glancing at, exactly your current experience in Goloka Vrndavana.

 

And since this is your current and eternal state, I couldn't imagine you would be at all displeased by giving us a running commentary of your nectarean experiences in personal service with the object of our neophyte mechanical pseudo-love, Sri Krsna.

 

So far, inconceivably, you have not explained any of what you are experiencing in this reagard, and appear to just be a fallen soul like us, quoting and even sometimes mis-paraphrasing an Acharya, but like I said this is apparently due to the inconceivability of your status as a niyta-siddha mahabhagavata currently serving in Goloka, so I beg you please relieve yourself of the dry taste you must have and share the nectar.

 

If this is too confidential, I beg your pardon for such arrogant insolence.

 

Please?

[Sarva gattah]

Dear Sevabhakta, I am simply trying to present the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. The quotes many of us who believe we are in Goloka and are presently dreaming in the mahat-ttava or even in the impersonal Brahmajyoit are said by Srila Prabhupada as previosly quoted on many postings and threads. It is Srila Prabhupadas teachings and not mine, I am simply repeating what he has told us

 

humbly Sarva,

 

Ps I saw some Narayana Maharaj disciples of about 19 and 20 years of age chanting on the streets today and it was very inspiring, one spoke out to the crowd saying, 'we chant Hare Krishna because we just want to be with Krishna". I thought that was very sweet and innocent.

[Sarva gattah]

Some have said - What we were trying to get at earlier is, where is this conception of “jiva tatastha” as a state of impersonal consciousness or a place of origin coming from? As far as I know, Srila Prabhupada only used “tatastha” as referring to the marginal quality of the jivas, in that they can be situated under the protection of internal energy in their constitutional position as pure devotees, but they can also be covered by the illusory energy. As such, he is using the word “tatastha” to refer to what the jiva *is*, not a place it may be or state of consciousness it may undergo. The jiva in Vaikuntha is tatastha shakti, the jiva in sayujya is tatastha shakti, and the jiva in samsara is tatastha shakti. The jiva is always tatastha shakti, but the jiva properly *belongs* in Vaikuntha’

 

Comment – ‘The word tatastha by ITS ENGLISH DEFINITION does NOT refer to the jiva - tattva in its full nitya-siddha glory and potential in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, Tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.. According that description, those who claim we are originally tatastha are wrong. I cannot accept your interpretation because tatastha refers only to the nitya-baddha dreaming Consciousness.

 

Others have said that the gopis and cowherd boys cannot fall down from Goloka, that is true but what does fall down really mean? The answer is their nitya-siddha bodies are eternally in Goloka but some, who are marginal energy or jiva-tattva, can, and do sometimes fall down in a sub-conscious non-Krishna dream state, but never as their nitya-siddha body. Many residents of Goloka are Vishnu-tattva and yes, they can never fall down in anyway however, all jiva-tattva’s can fall down, even from Goloka.

 

‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will (can) fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

Akruranatha says – ‘I also looked for the part in Nectar of Devotion where Srila Prabhupada talked about jivas being able to manifest a certain percentage of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comJuly 4, 1974</st1:date>)

<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s qualities, Lord Siva a greater percentage, and Lord Narayan an even greater percentage. I could not find that exact part, but the discussions of the qualities of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> were illuminating’

<FONT size=2>Comment – This seems to imply the Lord Siva and Lord Narayana are jiva which is incorrect, they are plenary expansions of Krishna or Vishnu tattva and this comment you have quoted is very misleading’.

<FONT size=2>.

<FONT size=2>Akruranatha further says - “Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, some hear of him as amazing, and others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.” (B.G. 2.29) This is a great subject matter and if I can truly understand it my life will be perfect. Throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books and lectures, he has stated that the jivas are tatastha shakti. For example: “As stated in the Bhagavad Gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva.’

<FONT size=2>

<FONT size=2>Comment – ‘Yes I agree with you but this refers to the soul OUTSIDE of Goloka, it refers to the nitya-baddha consciousness and not ones nitya-siddha eternal bodily identity that is perpetually in Goloka or Vaikuntha’.

<FONT size=2>Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

<FONT size=2>

<FONT size=2>‘You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -

<FONT size=2>

<FONT size=2>‘Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being. . . has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position… We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one. ...the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity... The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction."

 

Comment means me

[Guruvani]

 

‘Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being. . . has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position… We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one. ...the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity... The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction."

Lord Caitanya explained to Srils Rupa Goswami that the "svarupa" of the jiva is the form of a spirit spark.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

 

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera 'svarūpa' vicāri

 

SYNONYMS

keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

 

No word about any spiritual body in Goloka here in the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

So, obviously, the fall-from-goloka fairytale does not accept the teachings of Lord Caitanya.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Lord Caitanya explained to Srils Rupga Goswami that the "svarupa" of the jiva is the form of a spirit spark.

 

 

 

No word about any spiritual body in Goloka here in the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

So, obviously, the fall-from-goloka fairytale does not accept the teachings of Lord Caitanya.

 

There are many places in shastra that explains svarupa means out bodily form in Goloka

 

The Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

 

The word svarūpa-sthaḥ is also very significant. The real identity of the individual soul lies in understanding or attaining the knowledge that he is eternally a servant of Kṛṣṇa.

 

This understanding is called svarūp opalabdhi. By culturing devotional service, the devotee gradually comes to understand his actual relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This understanding of one's pure spiritual position is called svarūpopalabdhi, and when one attains that stage he can understand how he is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a servant or friend or as a parent or conjugal lover. This stage of understanding is called svarūpa-sthah. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.23.18

 

svarūpa-sthah means being situated in one's constitutional position

svarūpa — original form Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.6

 

And what is that form?

 

But with the eyes of love of Godhead one can see its real identity (svarūpa-prakāśa — manifestation of identity) as the place where Lord Krishna performs His pastimes with the cowherd boys and cowherd girls.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.21

 

"These are the principal manifestations and expansions of the Personality of Godhead and His three energies. They are all emanations from Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Transcendence. They have their existence in Him.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.104

svarūpa-gaṇa — means personal forms and not sparks or atoms in some effulgence

[Sarva gattah]

‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will (can) fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

[Guruvani]

 

‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will (can) fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

So, the pure devotees in Vaikuntha are "contaminated souls"?

 

You need to read what the statement is actually saying, not just what you want it to say.

 

What it means is that even if a contamianted soul goes to Vaikuntha he cannot stay.

It doesn't mean that the pure devotees in Vaikuntha fall down, because Srila Prabhupada has already admitted that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

 

But, if someone like Brhgu Muni enters Vaikuntha he cannot stay.

He must return to his planet that is the highest planet in the universe below Satyaloka, ever higher than the Polestar Dhruvaloka where Lord Ksirodakshayi Vishnu resides in the ocean of milk.

 

Brhgu can enter Vaikuntha, but he cannot stay because he is a jnani.

[suchandra]

 

So, the pure devotees in Vaikuntha are "contaminated souls"?

 

You need to read what the statement is actually saying, not just what you want it to say.

 

What it means is that even if a contamianted soul goes to Vaikuntha he cannot stay.

It doesn't mean that the pure devotees in Vaikuntha fall down, because Srila Prabhupada has already admitted that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

 

But, if someone like Brhgu Muni enters Vaikuntha he cannot stay.

He must return to his planet that is the highest planet in the universe below Satyaloka, ever higher than the Polestar Dhruvaloka where Lord Ksirodakshayi Vishnu resides in the ocean of milk.

Brhgu can enter Vaikuntha, but he cannot stay because he is a jnani.

 

Durvasa Muni also couldnt stay - although it is quite amazing that he could enter Vaikuntha.

[Sarva gattah]

 

So, the pure devotees in Vaikuntha are "contaminated souls"?

 

You need to read what the statement is actually saying, not just what you want it to say.

 

What it means is that even if a contamianted soul goes to Vaikuntha he cannot stay.

It doesn't mean that the pure devotees in Vaikuntha fall down, because Srila Prabhupada has already admitted that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

 

But, if someone like Brhgu Muni enters Vaikuntha he cannot stay.

He must return to his planet that is the highest planet in the universe below Satyaloka, ever higher than the Polestar Dhruvaloka where Lord Ksirodakshayi Vishnu resides in the ocean of milk.

 

Brhgu can enter Vaikuntha, but he cannot stay because he is a jnani.

 

Only those who desire to enjoy seperately from Krishna are transferred from their svarupa body in Goloka or Vaikuntha and enter the mahat-tattva in a dreaming state. If one is Krishna Conscious they will never 'consciously' fall down

 

"The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot " - Contents of the Gita Summarized TEXT 28 purport

 

Hey Guruvani me good mate, any wonder you haven't thrown this one at me

 

"Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream". Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 16.8

[Beggar]

 

"The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot " - Contents of the Gita Summarized TEXT 28 purport

 

And the Dreamer-vadi philosophy is something like the Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta.

[Guruvani]

 

 

"Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream". Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 16.8

 

Like I have said before, I will say it again, yes, we are dreaming.

We are in the material world dreaming, not in Goloka dreaming.

 

You have manufactured the idea that we are in Goloka dreaming when actually the message of the shastra is that we are in the material world dreaming.

Your idea that we are in Goloka dreaming is truly laughable.

Anyway, these things are just interesting issues to discuss and debate, but ultimately Krishna is only looking as your sincerity even if you have some mixed-up ideas about this fall-from-goloka fairytale.

 

It doesn't make you a bad devotee.

It's just a little bit of a philosophical misunderstanding you have.

 

At least you are thinking about Krishna consciousness ideas.

That is the most important thing.

 

I am not a finished professor and I can and do make mistakes.

But, on this one I think you are confused.

[stonehearted]

This should all bring us back to the question that gives this thread its name: Where does the impersonal interpretation of tatastha-shakti come from? The answer is that it comes from those who want to vilify saintly devotees such as Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila B. P. Puri Maharaja. They never said that the tatastha-shakti is impersonal. It's us. Our personality may not be fully manifest when we're wound up in the body of Mahavishnu, but it unfolds as we practices sadhana bhakti in good association.

 

Tatastha is an adjective, not a place. And all this is discussion of something that's inherently beyond the ken of the mind and senses to comprehend or properly express--it's adhokshaja, achintya. And the sages we find in the shastras express their divine vision in poetic language, which is largely figurative.

 

And we conditioned souls who can't stay away from TV, Hershey bars, and others' wives think we can figure this out with our little minds? Forget it! (Oh, that's just what Srila Prabhupada said to do.)

[theist]

 

This should all bring us back to the question that gives this thread its name: Where does the impersonal interpretation of tatastha-shakti come from? The answer is that it comes from those who want to vilify saintly devotees such as Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila B. P. Puri Maharaja. They never said that the tatastha-shakti is impersonal. It's us. Our personality may not be fully manifest when we're wound up in the body of Mahavishnu, but it unfolds as we practices sadhana bhakti in good association.

 

Tatastha is an adjective, not a place. And all this is discussion of something that's inherently beyond the ken of the mind and senses to comprehend or properly express--it's adhokshaja, achintya. And the sages we find in the shastras express their divine vision in poetic language, which is largely figurative.

 

And we conditioned souls who can't stay away from TV, Hershey bars, and others' wives think we can figure this out with our little minds? Forget it! (Oh, that's just what Srila Prabhupada said to do.)

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

And we conditioned souls who can't stay away from TV, Hershey bars, and others' wives think we can figure this out with our little minds? Forget it! (Oh, that's just what Srila Prabhupada said to do.)

 

Forget what?

 

Oh, look at the pretty daisies!!

[Guruvani]

 

This should all bring us back to the question that gives this thread its name: Where does the impersonal interpretation of tatastha-shakti come from? The answer is that it comes from those who want to vilify saintly devotees such as Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila B. P. Puri Maharaja. They never said that the tatastha-shakti is impersonal. It's us.

 

 

The Hershey Bars and others' wives are minor issues compared to the vilification of such great Vaishnavas.

 

It appears that the fall-from-goloka fairytale is closely linked to the adversaries of such great Vaishnavas.

So, the fairytale won't hold you back at all.

But, the vilification of great Vaishnavas certainly will.

 

p.s.

I plead guilt to the TV anartha.

But, I don't care for movies or sitcoms.

 

I like Discovery, History Channel and the Travel Channel.

When there is a good UFC fight on SPIKE TV you can bet I am glued to the TUBE.

 

That will get me away from battling the sleepervadis everytime.

[theist]

 

When there is a good UFC fight on SPIKE TV you can bet I am glued to the TUBE.

 

That will get me away from battling the sleepervadis everytime.

 

Yeah but I bet you start having dreams of yourself as some Chuck Liddell figure battling Sarva(The Dreamer) Gatta figure and laying some heavy ground and pound on him or perhaps a guillotine choke.

 

Today is the day I cancel (again) my extra TV service down to a few PBS stations and and local crap TV. No more UFC and Boxing After Dark. I will be in withdrawls for awhile. But at least my last boxing match was Kelly Pavlic knocking out Jeremaine Taylor. Oh a thing of beauty it was.