The impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha, where did it come from?

[CCC]

 

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

Is this quote from the Original Vedabase?

[Guruvani]

 

Is this quote from the Original Vedabase?

It's from the vedabase.net.

 

Since you inquired I compared it to a 1972 edition of Sri Isopanisad and in fact there is a slight difference in the wording.

 

In the 1972 edition it reads:

 

 

The brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks. The spiritual sparks being individual entities with the full sense of existence, sometimes desire to become the enjoyers of the senses, and thus they are given places in the material world to become false lords, under the dictation of the senses.

There are a couple of errors in the punctuation of the original.

But, instead of just correcting the errors in punctuation, the BBT editors deemed it necessary to change the wording also.

 

The current vedabase.net version is:

 

 

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.

 

The meaning is the same.

But, they have changed some wording.

 

I think they could have just corrected the punctuation without changing the wording.

Perfect sentence structure is not very important.

They could have fixed the punctuation without changing the wording, even if the wording in the original was a little awkward according to the rules of proper sentence structure.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I just recently became aware of this pastime of Sir Winston Churchill:

 

 

http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm332930.html

 

 

After receiving a Minute issued by a priggish civil servant, objecting to the ending of a sentence with a preposition and the use of a dangling participle in official documents, Churchill red pencilled in the margin: "This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put."

 

 

The meaning is the same.

But, they have changed some wording.

 

I think they could have just corrected the punctuation without changing the wording.

Perfect sentence structure is not very important.

They could have fixed the punctuation without changing the wording, even if the wording in the original was a little awkward according to the rules of proper sentence structure.

[stonehearted]

I've discussed the changes rather extensively with Dravida (who was my neighbor when I lived in San Diego) and Jayadvaita Swami. They had some idea of trying to bring the books closer to Prabhupada's dictated versions, while improving the sentence structure, etc., for which I've seen Srila Prabhupada express his appreciation. (Don't try to drag me into arguing the book-change issue; that's one of the things I don't do.) I checked the 2003 VedaBase, which has a category for pre-1977 books; however, it has a 1974 version of Sri Isopanisad and the 1975 edition. No 1969 edition. (Odd, I thought.) I'd check my copy of the 1969 edition, but it's in a box in California. <sigh> <sigh></sigh>

[Guruvani]

 

I've discussed the changes rather extensively with Dravida (who was my neighbor when I lived in San Diego) and Jayadvaita Swami. They had some idea of trying to bring the books closer to Prabhupada's dictated versions, while improving the sentence structure, etc., for which I've seen Srila Prabhupada express his appreciation. (Don't try to drag me into arguing the book-change issue; that's one of the things I don't do.) I checked the 2003 VedaBase, which has a category for pre-1977 books; however, it has a 1974 version of Sri Isopanisad and the 1975 edition. No 1969 edition. (Odd, I thought.) I'd check my copy of the 1969 edition, but it's in a box in California. <sigh> <sigh></sigh>

 

The language professor weighs in.

 

He says:

</sigh>

I'd check my copy of the 1969 edition, but it's in a box in California.

 

Professor, think OUT OF THE BOX!

 

I hope you are doing well here in my beloved home state of Florida.

<sigh>

</sigh>

[CCC]

 

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>

With this purpot I understand that we come from Krsnaloka, I mean -at least- from the trascendental body of the Lord as spiritual sparks, and there we were with Krsna with our original body then we wanted to enjoy our senses and were placed in the mahat ttatva by the glance of Lord Maha Vishnu.

 

Have the spiritual spark a form like the Lord or is just like a tiny ball of spiritual light?

 

Is this spiritual tiny ball the effulgence of the soul's body?

[Guruvani]

 

With this purpot I understand that we come from Krsnaloka, I mean -at least- from the trascendental body of the Lord as spiritual sparks, and there we were with Krsna with our original body then we wanted to enjoy our senses and were placed in the mahat ttatva by the glance of Lord Maha Vishnu.

 

Have the spiritual spark a form like the Lord or is just like a tiny ball of spiritual light?

 

Is this spiritual tiny ball the effulgence of the soul's body?

All of those points would have to be validated by shastric reference, otherwise they are just imaginary fantasies.

 

If you can show those points with reference from shastra then you have something going.

Otherwise, it's just some fantasies that need to find the dust bin of speculation.

 

We shouldn't speculate or improvise siddhanta.

Each and every idea we have must be validated by shastra or it is useless.

[CCC]

"As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses." Srila Prabhupada Sri Isopanisad.

 

I have read this purpot a dozen of times and I realized that the brahmajyoti is full of sparks but doesn't mean that we are that brahmajoti or we are a part of that brahmajoti or the brahmajoti is made with living entities as spiritual sparks....

 

Is not the same: we are part of the impersonal brahman as spiritual sparks than the impersonal brahman is full of living entities as spiritual sparks.

 

Prabhupada is saying "the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks" He is not saying "the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is made of spiritual sparks" This last sentence is mayavadi.

 

This brahmajyoti is inconceivable is the impersonal form of the Lord and the spiritual souls as sparks are resting there.

 

"But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, fixed and immovable--the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth--by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me."

"By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them."

"And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal."

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe, appears as the indivisible, infinite and limitless truth."

[stonehearted]

That paragraph from Mantra 17 refers us to the previous verses. Did you read those? In the beginning of the purport to Mantra 16, Srila Prabhupada explains,

 

The sun and its rays are one and the same qualitatively. Similarly, the Lord and the living entities are one and the same in quality. The sun is one, but the molecules of the sun's rays are innumerable. The sun's rays constitute part of the sun, and the sun and its rays conjointly constitute the complete sun. Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Vrndavana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, the Lord enjoys His eternal pastimes. . . .

In the first two sentences, Srila Prabhupada analogizes the sun with the Lord, and the sun's rays with the living entities. Then he analogizes the sun's rays with the brahmajyoti. This makes the living entities and the brahmajyoti appear logically identical. Because we're discussing subjects that are beyond the material energy, which, in a sense, precede the material energy, they're inherently adhokshaja, achintya. So, although we see that some logic can be used, it's being used in terms of figurative language--metaphors, similes, (perhaps most concretely) analogies. If we think of such things in terms of physical location, material time, etc., we are bound to err in our conclusions. Anyone who has studied even the basics of the branch of philosophy known as metaphysics should understand that when we talk of creation, as of the soul, we're not talking of their having been fabricated in a particular fashion, time, or place. We're talking about their origin. I have to pack it in with this; it's way past my bedtime.

[CCC]

 

That paragraph from Mantra 17 refers us to the previous verses. Did you read those? In the beginning of the purport to Mantra 16, Srila Prabhupada explains,

 

In the first two sentences, Srila Prabhupada analogizes the sun with the Lord, and the sun's rays with the living entities. Then he analogizes the sun's rays with the brahmajyoti. This makes the living entities and the brahmajyoti appear logically identical. Because we're discussing subjects that are beyond the material energy, which, in a sense, precede the material energy, they're inherently adhokshaja, achintya. So, although we see that some logic can be used, it's being used in terms of figurative language--metaphors, similes, (perhaps most concretely) analogies. If we think of such things in terms of physical location, material time, etc., we are bound to err in our conclusions. Anyone who has studied even the basics of the branch of philosophy known as metaphysics should understand that when we talk of creation, as of the soul, we're not talking of their having been fabricated in a particular fashion, time, or place. We're talking about their origin. I have to pack it in with this; it's way past my bedtime.

Sorry Prabhu, but where are you going with that? I can't undrstand what is your position.

 

I am saying that is mayavadi if someone says that our origin is the brahmajyoti or to think that we are a particle of the brahmajyoti, Srila Prabhupada is saying that the brahmajyoti is full of spiritual sparks.

 

Is like the sky is full of particles of dust, but these are different. One is the impersonal feature of the Lord and the other is the soul in Brahma-sayujya mukti, resting in the brahmajyoti without a spiritual body, just floating as a dust in the sky.

 

In the lecture below from Srila Prabhupada, He is explaining this very nicely.

 

"This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna." (Lecture in Australia).

 

1-First we were with Krsna in hi lilas

2-We fall down to the material world, free will.

3-Somehow we reach brahma-sayujya mukti, because as impersonalist we thought that the impersonal feature is the cause of all, and get a "spiritual spark body" maybe like this emoticon:sleep:. (Just kidding but very graphic).

4- As Srila Prabhupada is saying in this mukti is only eternal existence without trascendental bliss and at the same time we don't remember that beyond this, there is spiritual life full of bliss so we think that the brahmajyoti may be is our origin and come again to this material world to do something, because the soul is ever active and wants pleasure.

[Beggar]

 

 

In the lecture below from Srila Prabhupada, He is explaining this very nicely.

 

"This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna." (Lecture in Australia).

 

 

 

"Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs." (Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles) emphases added

 

To say that this quote supports the idea that the eternal residents of Goloka Vrndavana fall down is absurd, especially it is true of this part, "Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father." The eternal residents of Goloka do not have a vague emphemeral relationship, with Krsna but rather a deep face to face relationship is one of the five rasas. In the brahmajyoti we may have seen the father in a similiar way as to when, "the father places the child in the womb of the mother". In the material world the child does not really see the father when he/she is being impregnated into the material mother's womb, but the jiva souls in the brahmajyoti are "resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state". There is nothing here to indicate that these souls were ever in a full fledged rasik relationship with Sri Sri Radha Krsna. Both the quote from the lecture in Australia and the quote from the letter to Jagadisa must be considered together. Of course nothing can be said to those persons who are hell bent on propagating the idea that the eternal inhabitants of the highest part of the Spiritual World fall down to become worms in the stool.

[Vigraha]

Because the Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established.

 

This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe).

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

 

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

 

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

 

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

 

Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time’ to ‘time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and ‘rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness

 

When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains -

 

“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”.Chapter 3. Karma-yoga text 27

 

“The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport.

 

Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant love for Krishna exists in everyone’s heart, and it simply has to be awakened by the regulative process of devotional service. One has to learn to use a typewriter by following the regulative principles of the typing book. One has to place his fingers on the keys in such a way and practice, but when one becomes adept, he can type swiftly and correctly without even looking at the keys. Similarly, one has to follow the rules and regulations of devotional service as they are set down by the spiritual master; then one can come to the point of spontaneous loving service”.

 

Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of genuine devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

 

Srila Prabhupada – “”Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. http://caitanyacaritamrta./

com/madhya/22/…

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Everyone thinks, “My relationship with Krishna is the best.”

 

HANSADUTTA: So it’s not a matter of aspiring to some–

 

PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

Yes we are dreaming our material continuation as well as our existence in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti if we dare go to that dreaming dreamless impersonal state of our own nitya-baddha consciousness.

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (nitya-baddha) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation)

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position”. Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth” Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

 

Srila Prabhupada - “we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on”.Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams” Letter to Nandakisora, Sunday, December 24, 1967

 

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion or ignorance

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Also when Sri Maha-Vishnu goes into yoga-nidra, this act of sleeping His mystic slumber is real - for anything the Lord does is reality. Within this mystic dream, we the minute living entities are in fact participating in it. How we choose to misuse our God-given independence determines whether we stay or leave this realm. Is it real? If it emanates from the Lord, the answer is yes”.

 

The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word ‘material dream’ simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays.

 

It is that ‘eternal’ place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa.

 

Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our exitence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion. On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming.

 

They are simply our non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are excluded from Goloka and can only find expression within the yoga-nidra dreams of Maha-Vishnu. It is there such desires, thoughts or dreams are given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies) that are the ornaments and decorations of the mahat-tattva.

 

These vessels not only belong to the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva, sometimes called mother nature, that the jiva-tatastha possess with their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness.

 

In this way, just like darkness appears when the sun is no longer visible, the nitya-baddha consciousness appears when one miss uses their free will to choose to ignore Krishna and their nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, which is their (jiva-tatastha) full potential. Nitya-baddha therefore is the secondary consciousness where one can experience their self centered mistaken dreams.

 

The reason the word ‘dream’ is used is because Prabhupada explains that Maha-Vishnu in His yoga-nidra state, is in a trance or dream, and that dream is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

 

Yoga nidra literally means ‘sleep’

 

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state.

 

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

 

Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva.

 

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together.

 

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’.

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan” as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa or atma (self) vigraha (bodily form) devotional body. The living entity did notoriginate from tatastha although ones nitya-baddha consciousness may have visited there on many occassions.

 

Srila Prabhupada can and does say that the living entity (nitya-siddha) never actually falls from the spiritual world however the forgetful consciousness of the living entity (The projected nitya-baddha consciousness) can ‘fall down’ and enter the mahat-tattva in a dream state that simultaneously leaves one authentic body back in Goloka .

 

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the Spiritual World and return?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krishna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krishna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krishna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krishna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

[Beggar]

 

 

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

 

As explained previously by other posters, no Gaudiya Vaishnava "sects" especially those one or two generations removed from Gaudiya Math, view the origin of the soul as impersonal. They simply accept the version coming down in the parampara from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and that version is certainly not impersonal for the brahmajyoti is actually the effulgence eminating from the body or swarupa of the transcendental Lord. Everything must be viewed in the light of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's doctrine of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva or the simultaneous oneness and difference of everything in Reality the Beautiful. The Fall From Goloka Theorists are mired in Dualism and therefore divorced from the real conception of divinity coming from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They mistake Srila Prabhupada's preaching to beginners who were trapped in either Judeo-Christian Dualism or classic impersonalism, and then juxtapose the clear statements in the Bhaktivedanta purports to concoct the Sleeper-Vadi (dualistic) Theory.

[Guruvani]

What Sarva Gatha and others like him are having a problem with is accepting the humble position that they are just a speck of spiritual energy 10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

They cannot accept such a humble conception of themselves.

They have to think that they are actually eternal parshadas of Krishna with a body just like Radha or Krishna.

 

Well, the truth is that they ARE just tiny sparks of life and they DO NOT yet have a spiritual body like Radha or Krishna's.

 

They cannot even imagine such a humble position of the soul as just being no different or not better than the other unlimited sparks of life that are within the brahmajyoti of Krishna.

 

So, really, they have an ego problem.

They are puffed-up and thinking themselves as much better and superior to the sparks of life that are within the brahmajyoti.

 

Unless and until they realize and accept their humble position they will never attain the spiritual body that they already think they have.

 

Their philosophy contradicts everything the shastra says about the nature of marginal conditioned souls.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"I feel your pain"

--Bill Clinton

[sevabhakta]

 

As explained previously by other posters, no Gaudiya Vaishnava "sects" especially those one or two generations removed from Gaudiya Math, view the origin of the soul as impersonal. They simply accept the version coming down in the parampara from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and that version is certainly not impersonal for the brahmajyoti is actually the effulgence eminating from the body or swarupa of the transcendental Lord. Everything must be viewed in the light of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's doctrine of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva or the simultaneous oneness and difference of everything in Reality the Beautiful. The Fall From Goloka Theorists are mired in Dualism and therefore divorced from the real conception of divinity coming from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They mistake Srila Prabhupada's preaching to beginners who were trapped in either Judeo-Christian Dualism or classic impersonalism, and then juxtapose the clear statements in the Bhaktivedanta purports to concoct the Sleeper-Vadi (dualistic) Theory.

 

Nice synopsis.

 

Gaura Hari Bol!

[Guruvani]

My question for Sarva Gatah (Vigraha etc.) is does he also believe that the worms in his intestines also have spiritual bodies in Goloka like Radha and Krishna?

Or, does he just think that certain souls like himself have a spiritual body in Goloka and the worms in his intestines or the other unlimited sparks of life in the brahmajyoti do not also have a dormant spiritual body in Goloka just like Radha and Krishna?

 

Believe me, I know it is hard to imagine that the souls in the worms in stool are my brothers whose souls are equal to me.

 

None the less, that is what shastra tells us and that is the bitter pill of truth concerning the jiva-tattva that we all must accept and surrender to if we truly intend to cultivate the Vedic knowledge of shastra.

[Guruvani]

If you ask me, the idea that a worm in stool has a spiritual body as a gopi or gopa etc. in Goloka but has forgotten about that and is now dreaming that he is a worm in stool is repugnant and disgusting.

 

If there is no more security and safety for the pure devotees of Krishna than that, then I am not so sure that I want to be a devotee of a God who lets his pure devotees fall to such deplorable conditions.

 

The truth is that pure devotees of Krishna DO NOT fall into such deplorable conditions and to say that they do is just the most ridiculous apasiddhanta that I have ever heard.

 

It is a slap in the face to Krishna to say that his pure devotees are falling down and rejecting him by unlimited numbers of fallen souls.

 

I do not agree to slap Krishna in the face like that.

I think it is an abomination to preach such nonsense.

[sevabhakta]

Here! Here! Hari Bol!

 

Look here, that may as well have been a point of order, and I second the motion, are there any moderators out there who can strike all these slaps at Krsna's face from the record?

 

Or perhaps lock down this topic and mark it with skull and cross bones as a twisted memorial to the Slumber-Vadi's who slept through Vaisnava 101 and are truly infering blasphemous things about the Sweetness and Love of our Krsna for his devotees.

[Sarva gattah]

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time." (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 –

 

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two ttp://introduction.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/034.html

"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

"These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas--explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control." Cc. Madhya, 25.42

"The word varnam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate " /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comJanuary 28, 1974</st1:date>

[font=/><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

 

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His unlimited Purusha expansions as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna cause their ‘appearance’ of bodiless consciousness to be a spark, atom, molecule or rays in the sunshine which is the impersonal aspect of Brahman or Brahmajyoti.

Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, can 'appear' to be an atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body.

[Guruvani]

Sarva Gattah,

Your whole philosophy is based upon your misconception that liberated devotees of Krishna can fall down from Goloka.

That is not possible.

Shastra does not give even ONE example of a pure devotee falling down from Goloka.

Such a claim that Krishna's devotees are falling down or falling into illusion from Goloka is a bogus philosophy.

 

Lord Krishna, shastra and Srila Prabhupada all confirm that liberated devotees are infallible and cannot fall down or fall in illusion.

 

You are trying to manufacture a siddhanta that pure devotees of Krishna fall down from Goloka.

They don't.

 

Your philosophy is bogus.

It misrepresents Srila Prabhupada, Krishna and the shastra.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself.

You preach this asinine philosophy in closely guarded anonymity.

 

You should not be allowed to promote this kind of apasiddhanta on this forum and misguide innocent people who think your ranting is Gaudiya siddhanta.

It is NOT Gaudiya siddhanta.

It is an ISKCON fairytale that has been manufactured out of misrepresenting the words of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Before ISKCON, no Gaudiya sampradaya ever advocated or preached such an asinine philosophy as the fall-from-goloka sleepvadi nonsense that you have proliferated all over the internet under at least a half dozen false identities meant for hiding your true identity.

 

Such is the works of a misguided scoundrel.

[Sarva gattah]

Please realise Brahman is held together by Form

 

"The word varnam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna. "This imaginary experience of a world separate from It is therefore, as all devotees know, impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independently separate effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:city><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:city> in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

 

 

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination".(Bhag.11.2.38)

 

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness, is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander. Such ‘consciousness’ is a living spark of consciousness, atom, molecule as part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky and is 10,000<SUP>th</SUP> the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

In this condition outside the active personal Vaikunthas, the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His eternal pastimes as well as their own endless svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, now 'appear' and described by the Vedas as atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character.

This is clearly because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of their eternal svarupa body and their perpetual master <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Hey Guruvani me good innocent man (mate) even if I am a 'scoundral', I'm only having a bad 'dream' My genuin bodily form, LIKE YOURS, is in Vaikuntha and when WE choose to AGAIN become Krishna Conscious, then WE can know who WE really ARE in Krishna's pastimes and always have BEEN and always will BE.

 

[Guruvani]

 

My genuin bodily form, LIKE YOURS, is in Vaikuntha and when WE choose to AGAIN become Krishna Conscios then WE can know who WE really ARE and always have BEEN and always will BE.

 

Wrong, neither one of us have a siddha-deha in Vaikuntha.

That idea is just a product of your "dreaming".

You say everything in this world is a dream.

Well, your misguided notion that you already have a spiritual body in Vaikuntha is just more dreaming on your part.

 

You can't dream yourself into a spiritual body.

You have to attain a spiritual body through spiritual perfection which you have not acheived yet.

 

You don't have a spiritual body other than your spiritual body as a spark of light that is a fragment of Krishna's brahmajyoti - the marginal energy.

 

If you have a spiritual body you wouldn't be on the internet espousing bogus philosophy. You would be serving Krishna and enjoying life in Vrindavan.

Shastra gives no example of anyone in Vaikuntha as going to sleepervadi land and forgetting they have a spiritual body.

That idea is a figment of your imagination.

 

You are a nitya-baddha jiva.

You have never been liberated.

You have been a conditioned soul eternally.

You are a spark of the brahmajyoti that got covered by the Maha-tattva.

You have never been anything more that that.

 

You were never playing with Krishna in Goloka.

That idea is just another of your many dream fantasies.

[Sarva gattah]

At least I know I'm right however -

These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas--explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control." Cc. Madhya, 25.42

 

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together.

 

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’.

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan” as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa or atma (self) vigraha (bodily form) devotional body. The living entity did not originate from THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI although ones nitya-baddha consciousness may have visited there on many occassions

[Guruvani]

 

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan” as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa or atma (self) vigraha (bodily form) devotional body. The living entity did not originate from THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI although ones nitya-baddha consciousness may have visited there on many occassions

Why don't you stop manufacturing lies and presenting it as Gaudiya siddhanta?

Your ideas are just products of your dreaming condition.

 

No devotees of Krishna in Goloka fall down or falls into illusion or falls to the brahmajyoti.

 

You keep insisting they do.

You are wrong.

You are dreaming.

 

Wake-up sleeping soul.

You are sleeping in the lap of the witch called maya.

You are not sleeping in Goloka.

That is just your misconception that you want everyone else to believe in too.