The impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha, where did it come from?

[suchandra]

 

Why don't you stop manufacturing lies and presenting it as Gaudiya siddhanta?

Your ideas are just products of your dreaming condition.

 

No devotees of Krishna in Goloka fall down or falls into illusion or falls to the brahmajyoti.

 

You keep insisting they do.

You are wrong.

You are dreaming.

 

Wake-up sleeping soul.

You are sleeping in the lap of the witch called maya.

You are not sleeping in Goloka.

That is just your misconception that you want everyone else to believe in too.

This seems to be originating what Prabhupada used to explain with, Indian gentlemen who attacked him because he is turning sinful people, papa-yoni, into Vaishnavas - "papa-yoni, they cannot become...". Although one might say from statistical point of view that there's some truth in that.

 

"In India they sometimes come to fight with me that I am making these pāpa-yoni, namely, the Europeans and Americans… They are considered by the rigid Hindus as a pāpa-yoni. “They cannot become.” But why Krishna says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye ’pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ? Te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim. So everyone has got the chance. Even he is born in a pāpa-yoni, everyone… Otherwise, why Krishna will say, te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim? Simply the condition is: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya: [Bg. 9.32] “One should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Never mind wherever he is born. He can be also transferred to the spiritual world.”So this is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is like that. It doesn’t matter whether one is sura or asura. Sura… Krishna also says, kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (anityam) asukhaṁ lokam imaṁ prāpya bhajasva mām [Bg. 9.33]

Simply if we take to Krishna consciousness, it does not matter whether we are born in pāpa-yoni or puṇya-yoni. Puṇya-yoni, those who are born in puṇya-yoni, in nice family, for them it is very easy and natural. But even those who are born in asura family… Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja became a great devotee. He is one of the authorities of devotees. But his father was asura. Asura does not mean one community is simply asura, and other community is simply sura. No, that is not. Any community, any person, if he follows the principle of sura, he becomes sura. If he follow the principles of asura, even if he was born in sura family, then he is asura. These are the injunction of the śāstra.

People do not know it. So we Krishna consciousness movement, we are simply trying to make the asuras as sura. This is our movement. Anyone who is not devotee, he is asura. It doesn’t matter whether he is born in some country or some family. It doesn’t matter. If he is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then he is asura. When we speak of Krishna, Krishna means God. Anyone who is nondevotee of God, who is not God conscious, he is asura. That is the injunction. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayaḥ. This is the distinction. Devatā means viṣṇu-bhakta, great devotee of the Supreme Lord. Vishnu means the Supreme Lord, all-pervading. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad… And those who are not devotees, Godless, without any God consciousness, they are all asuras. So this movement is to make asuras as suras."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 16.7

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Tokyo, January 27, 1975

[Guruvani]

the sleepervadi theory is based a serious deviation from Gaudiya siddhanta concerning the infallibility of liberated nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna.

 

It's a false idea.

 

It is an affront to the shastric siddhanta concerning the perfection of the spiritual world.

 

.

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[Sarva gattah]

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination".(Bhag.11.2.38)

 

"just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. "Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. TOKYO 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally

 

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna cause their ‘appearance’ of bodiless consciousness to be a spark, atom, molecule or rays in the sunshine which is the impersonal aspect of Brahman or Brahmajyoti.

 

Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, can 'appear' to be an atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body.

[Beggar]

One of the problems we are having on this issue is the fact that acintya bheda (a)bheda or simultaneous oneness and difference is a paradox. Srila Prabhupada often empasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because that is it's experiential nature. Once we are even slightly awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness we will be able to see the dream-like quality of our mayik existence. This dream-like quality of material consciousness is found with all conciousness except that the experience of real spiritual existence is governed by the internal energy and not Maha Maya but rather Yoga Maya. When we can understand the dream-like nature of our present mayik, illusory, and temporary existence only then can we realize that the Lord only has one energy that is being employed in different ways. The paradox is that from an experiential viewpoint we are being called "back home, back to Godhead" yet we must also understand that "no one falls from Vaikuntha". The real sages in our line harmonized these thoughts that appear contradictory in what we now call the Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta. The Sleeper-Vadi Theory fails to take into account the duality that if we were or are really now in Goloka and dreaming that we are in the material world (as a definition of fallen) then the eternal associates of the Sri Krsna will also eventually enter the dream-like mayik material life or at least have the potentiality to do so. Consquently the internal associates of Krsna would be ordinary jiva souls. If this is true then it would undermine one of most intrinsic and basic principles of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, that of "Krsna tvadiya". That means that because of our infinitesimal nature and the absolute nature of Krsna, those things associated with Krsna like His dress, His abode, His Consort, His devotees etc. are even more worshipable that He. If the eternal associates of Sri Sri Radha Krsna had the potential to fall or even dream that they fell, then they would be fallible and not infallible. Consequently Sri Guru and the suddha Vaisnavas would also be fallible, so why would we worship and follow them? Or perhaps we could worship and follow them, only to give them up when we ourselves become liberated from the illusory dream of Maha Maya. Of course this is the tactic of the Mayavadis, so this path is certainly rejected by the Acaryas of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. Now we are only left with the rationalization that the GBC arrived at, that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had a realization that was unique and different that his godbrothers, his guru and and param guru! Yet this so-called realization would make Prabhupada so different from the predecessor acaryas that ISKCON would be in different line and Prabhupada would be some sort of "pop-up" teacher without an authorized parampara. Therefore the statements of Srila Prabhupada about the dream-like existence of our material life must be viewed in the light of the statements of the previous teachers in our line and the apparently contradictory statements in his books, lectures, room conversations and walk conversations. The only other rationale is to assume that all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers except him, misinterpreted and misunderstood Srila Bhaksiddhanta Sararswati Thakur, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and all the scriptures and commentaries. This is truly an absurd position yet probably at least two-thirds of initiated Prabhupada disciples believed it during the seventies. Personally I never accepted that idea and rejected it immediatley when I heard it, three weeks after I joined the movement it 1971. I thought that if Srila Prabhupada was only one to attain real Krsna Consciousness (perfection) out of a thousand or so godbrothers (and godsisters) then what would my position be in relationship to my thousands of godbothers and godsisters? I could see that I was definitely at the bottom of the barrel, so maybe then I should have packed it in immediately and given up all association with the Krsna Consciousness Movement because from anything less than a superficial view, the situation would be hopeless! Thank God such a thought has no basis in reality! Yet the straw man quiotic so-called followers of our Srila Prabhupada continue to attack the imaginary windmills of Gaudiya Math and their only casualty is their own devotional creeper.

[Sarva gattah]

This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

 

Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva.

 

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, are always together in a similar way that the sun and the sunrays are together.

 

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’. This also means the marginal living entity can be similtaniously in Goloka and the material creation due to the time (mahat-tattva) and no-time (Goloka) phenomenon. This is really not that difficult to understand

 

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal in its original perpetual position. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

 

Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time’ to ‘time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and ‘rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness

 

When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains -

 

“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”.

Chapter 3. Karma-yoga text 27

 

“The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport.

 

Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

[Shakti-Fan]

Krishna Book, Srila Prabhupada : Ch. 20, Description of Autumn;

“The brahmajyoti–spiritual effulgence–is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free.”

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Nice essay.

 

It would be easier to read, if you broke it up into paragraphs.

 

 

 

One of the problems we are having on this issue is the fact that acintya bheda (a)bheda or simultaneous oneness and difference is a paradox. Srila Prabhupada often empasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because that is it's experiential nature. Once we are even slightly awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness we will be able to see the dream-like quality of our mayik existence. This dream-like quality of material consciousness is found with all conciousness except that the experience of real spiritual existence is governed by the internal energy and not Maha Maya but rather Yoga Maya. When we can understand the dream-like nature of our present mayik, illusory, and temporary existence only then can we realize that the Lord only has one energy that is being employed in different ways. The paradox is that from an experiential viewpoint we are being called "back home, back to Godhead" yet we must also understand that "no one falls from Vaikuntha". The real sages in our line harmonized these thoughts that appear contradictory in what we now call the Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta. The Sleeper-Vadi Theory fails to take into account the duality that if we were or are really now in Goloka and dreaming that we are in the material world (as a definition of fallen) then the eternal associates of the Sri Krsna will also eventually enter the dream-like mayik material life or at least have the potentiality to do so. Consquently the internal associates of Krsna would be ordinary jiva souls. If this is true then it would undermine one of most intrinsic and basic principles of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, that of "Krsna tvadiya". That means that because of our infinitesimal nature and the absolute nature of Krsna, those things associated with Krsna like His dress, His abode, His Consort, His devotees etc. are even more worshipable that He. If the eternal associates of Sri Sri Radha Krsna had the potential to fall or even dream that they fell, then they would be fallible and not infallible. Consequently Sri Guru and the suddha Vaisnavas would also be fallible, so why would we worship and follow them? Or perhaps we could worship and follow them, only to give them up when we ourselves become liberated from the illusory dream of Maha Maya. Of course this is the tactic of the Mayavadis, so this path is certainly rejected by the Acaryas of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. Now we are only left with the rationalization that the GBC arrived at, that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had a realization that was unique and different that his godbrothers, his guru and and param guru! Yet this so-called realization would make Prabhupada so different from the predecessor acaryas that ISKCON would be in different line and Prabhupada would be some sort of "pop-up" teacher without an authorized parampara. Therefore the statements of Srila Prabhupada about the dream-like existence of our material life must be viewed in the light of the statements of the previous teachers in our line and the apparently contradictory statements in his books, lectures, room conversations and walk conversations. The only other rationale is to assume that all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers except him, misinterpreted and misunderstood Srila Bhaksiddhanta Sararswati Thakur, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and all the scriptures and commentaries. This is truly an absurd position yet probably at least two-thirds of initiated Prabhupada disciples believed it during the seventies. Personally I never accepted that idea and rejected it immediatley when I heard it, three weeks after I joined the movement it 1971. I thought that if Srila Prabhupada was only one to attain real Krsna Consciousness (perfection) out of a thousand or so godbrothers (and godsisters) then what would my position be in relationship to my thousands of godbothers and godsisters? I could see that I was definitely at the bottom of the barrel, so maybe then I should have packed it in immediately and given up all association with the Krsna Consciousness Movement because from anything less than a superficial view, the situation would be hopeless! Thank God such a thought has no basis in reality! Yet the straw man quiotic so-called followers of our Srila Prabhupada continue to attack the imaginary windmills of Gaudiya Math and their only casualty is their own devotional creeper.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada confirms that marginal energy is spiritual energy covered by ignorance.

Since the liberated devotees of the Lord are not covered by ignorance they cannot justly be referred to as "marginal potency".

 

Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

 

When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy.

Marginal potency is spiritual potency overwhelmed by ignorance.

When spiritual potency is not overwhelmed by ignorance, they why are we referring to it as "marginal potency"?

[CCC]

 

 

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles AS IT IS

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, the letter is divided in two parts with two question:

 

First Question:

 

"Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down."

No comment (see second question below) and has no interpretation is very clear Srila Prabhupada. You accept the words of the self effulgent acharya or not, easy.

Second Question:

"Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions."

Pay very attention to the question Jagadisa is asking if the conditioned soul has ever seen Krsna, the conditioned soul!! not the liberated soul!!! (is obvious that the liberated soul has seen and see Krsna). So Srila Prabhupada replied Him yes. Just before the conditioned soul get conditioned we have seen Krsna in his Mahavishnu form and He injected us in the mahat tattva as a father inject the soul in the womb of the mother also this mean that the conditioned soul has the chance to see Mahavishnu when He enter Him after the aniquilation of the universe and enter in the susupti state.

so when we are in our original liberated state we can see Lord Krsna face to face and we are in his lilas (First question above), and when we are conditioned we can see Lord Krsna as Mahavishnu (NOT in Krsnaloka or vaikhunta) before entering and after leaving the destroyed universes in his maha vishnu form otherwise we can't see lord Krsna (In Goloka or Vaikhunta) in the conditioned state only if He descends but this is not the line of the question.

 

"The total material substance, called Brahman, is the source of birth, and it is that Brahman that I impregnate, making possible the births of all living beings, O son of Bharata.

I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support, and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rg, the Sama, and the Yajur [Vedas].

You are the father of this complete cosmic manifestation, the worshipable chief, the spiritual master. No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You. Within the three worlds, You are immeasurable."

[Vigraha]

 

Krishna Book, Srila Prabhupada : Ch. 20, Description of Autumn;

“The brahmajyoti–spiritual effulgence–is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free.”

 

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

 

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

 

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

 

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

 

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

 

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

 

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

 

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

 

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

 

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

 

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

 

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

 

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

[Beggar]

 

Krishna Book, Srila Prabhupada : Ch. 20, Description of Autumn;

“The brahmajyoti–spiritual effulgence–is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free.”

 

 

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

 

 

 

Krishna Book, Srila Prabhupada : Ch. 20, Description of Autumn;

“The brahmajyoti–spiritual effulgence–is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun...

"...And His unlimited Purusha expansions"? Where did you ever hear or read this? The Purusha expansions are all Visnu tattva, which means that they are infinite not infinitesimal. This is wrong.

"...because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA". Again this is not siddhanta but pravacana or preaching. The marginal jiva souls only have the potential to be "sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA" and this potential is not manifest until as Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says, that they become imbued with cit shakti.

[Vigraha]

 

"...And His unlimited Purusha expansions"? Where did you ever hear or read this? The Purusha expansions are all Visnu tattva, which means that they are infinite not infinitesimal. This is wrong.

"...because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA". Again this is not siddhanta but pravacana or preaching. The marginal jiva souls only have the potential to be "sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA" and this potential is not manifest until as Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says, that they become imbued with cit shakti.

 

Whats wrong with this? Its very clear -

"The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna AND His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)"

 

Read it correctly this time prabhu, where did you get the word infinitesimal from? Maybe a long time ago when I mixed up the words infinitesimal with infinite.

Lets make it clear for you -

 

The marginal living entities (jiva-tatasthas) are compared to the sunshine and Krishna and His purusha expantions (Vishnu etc) are compared to the sun. (Both originally founded in perpetual bodily forms)

 

As Prabhupada once said 'Some people look at the moon and accept it as it is while others only look at the moon and try to find faults'.

 

Frankly prabhu, we don't mind even such mundane fault finding because this subject has to be clearly understood. An that is we all originated from Goloka. Even the trapped soul in a big worm in stool originally, a long, long time ago, came down from Goloka or Vaikuntha (obviously not as their eternal svarupa body as by now you all must have CLEARLY understood) Guruvani cannot understand this fact.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The accurate meaning of tatastha s’akti should be correctly understood. This is explained very nicely by Urdhvaga das

"The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

<FONT face="Times New Roman">If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comMarginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

"Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down.

Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Comment -In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti or the ‘collective’ jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) consequently can appear also in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu)

It is in this way that the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not represent the full potential OR Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of the marginal living entity that eternally is present in Goloka. The jiva-tatasthas souls situated in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are therefore in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness that, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence.

[Sarva gattah]

MANY ARE SAYING we have not fallen down from Goloka”

 

Yes, they are exactly right as Srila Prabhupada has ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO GET THROUGHT TO US. Try to understand that our svarupa body can never fall from Goloka -

 

“Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all, when the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

The following verse from Krsna Book refers to souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE and on their way to re-establishing their relationship with Krishna, therefore they first go to a place in the material world where Krishna is having His transcendental pastimes before they go back home, back to Godhead and awakened to their perpetual “svarupa body” that has always been in Goloka -

 

“Those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.” Srila Prabhupadas Krsna Book

 

It is very clear that Krsna Book is referring to the conditioned souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE (the mahat-tattva) and on their way back to re-establishing or reawakening their eternal svarupa bodily relationship with Krishna that is perpetually founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha.Krsna’s pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Krsna’s appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe.

 

Srila Prabhupada has clearly confirmed that we did indeed come from Goloka and we can fall down (not as our perpetual svarupa body as already explained) from Goloka if we choose to miss use our free will

 

Prabhupada - So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupada - He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupada: - That means you lose your independence.

 

Vipina - And no love.

 

Prabhupada - That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape? - 760708ed.wdc Conversations.

 

We always have choice, even in Goloka

 

MANY SAY - “So the tatastha region is in between the spiritual and material worlds, and is where the living beings are manifested”

 

We (the jiva-tatasthas) have never manifested because we have always existed, we (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation. The marginal plane IS the individual independent living beings, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti therefore is NOT a position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu also correctly explained to us.

 

The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

 

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) which IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires with our own way of thinking, eternally. We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

 

Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

 

How have we fallen to the material world?

 

We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation.

 

Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE THE MARGINAL ENERGY and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha.

 

The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).

 

"If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings.

 

Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this -

 

“For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?” Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 - 21

 

“The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 - 24

 

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

[Beggar]

Spiritual life is like razors edge and all of us neophytes are always falling into jnana or karma or both. The real guru knows the inner condition of his disciple. When Srila Prabhupada made many statements in his conversations, letters etc. they were tailored for the time, place and circumstance need of a devotee or a group of devotees. Many of these statements appear to be very contradictory. Also statements in the books need to harmonized at times. Only a superior devotee can accomplish this task. Saying that one does not need a living teacher is like writing a book about how books are not needed. Whom ever is the real person behind what used to be known as the "Pradyumna Swami" Dreaming in Goloka Philosophy is the living "guru" of those so-called followers. His followers and he will have the same destination.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Spiritual life is like razors edge and all of us neophytes are always falling into jnana or karma or both. The real guru knows the inner condition of his disciple. When Srila Prabhupada made many statements in his conversations, letters etc. they were tailored for the time, place and circumstance need of a devotee or a group of devotees. Many of these statements appear to be very contradictory. Also statements in the books need to harmonized at times. Only a superior devotee can accomplish this task. Saying that one does not need a living teacher is like writing a book about how books are not needed. Whom ever is the real person behind what used to be known as the "Pradyumna Swami" Dreaming in Goloka Philosophy is the living "guru" of those so-called followers. His followers and he will have the same destination.

Yes it is like a razors edge so be very, very careful, what’s written above is your opionion; you don't know me or my relationship with Srila Prabhupada.

There is a saying that sums up the above quote from Beggar - 'As I think and believe, the whole world must think and believe' Begger is living in his own delusions.

 

By the way, the Great Person behind the 'dreaming in Goloka' is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as he personally explains –

"Just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>'s servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. Our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. <st1:City><st1:place>TOKYO</st1:place></st1:City> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

 

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination".(Bhag.11.2.38)

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles AS IT IS

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, the letter is divided in two parts with two question:

 

First Question:

 

"Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down."

No comment (see second question below) and has no interpretation is very clear Srila Prabhupada. You accept the words of the self effulgent acharya or not, easy.

Second Question:

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

"Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions."

Pay very attention to the question Jagadisa is asking if the conditioned soul has ever seen Krsna, the conditioned soul!! not the liberated soul!!! (is obvious that the liberated soul has seen and see Krsna). So Srila Prabhupada replied Him yes. Just before the conditioned soul get conditioned we have seen Krsna in his Mahavishnu form and He injected us in the mahat tattva as a father inject the soul in the womb of the mother also this mean that the conditioned soul has the chance to see Mahavishnu when He enter Him after the aniquilation of the universe and enter in the susupti state.

so when we are in our original liberated state we can see Lord Krsna face to face and we are in his lilas (First question above), and when we are conditioned we can see Lord Krsna as Mahavishnu (NOT in Krsnaloka or vaikhunta) before entering and after leaving the destroyed universes in his maha vishnu form otherwise we can't see lord Krsna (In Goloka or Vaikhunta) in the conditioned state only if He descends but this is not the line of the question.

 

"The total material substance, called Brahman, is the source of birth, and it is that Brahman that I impregnate, making possible the births of all living beings, O son of Bharata.

 

I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support, and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rg, the Sama, and the Yajur [Vedas].

 

You are the father of this complete cosmic manifestation, the worshipable chief, the spiritual master. No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You. Within the three worlds, You are immeasurable."

 

Interesting reading and understanding

[Guruvani]

BB Vishnu Maharaja:

 

quote:

 

 

Statements taken as indicating that the origin of all living entities in this material world is by falling from the Lord's lila are obtained thru misinterpretation of secondary indirect statements and not primary direct statements. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, one must consider direct first hand evidence rather than subsidiary indirect statements interpreted according to one's necessity. To introduce ambiguous statements and interpret them distorts the clear meaning of the primary evidence further.

 

 

The source of the dispute over the siddhanta regarding the origin of the jiva stems from the fact that vast amounts of devotees are not well read in the Goswami's literatures, have not understood their conclusions properly and thus do not properly know the siddhanta.

[Guruvani]

 

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Actually, the fall theory is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Guruvani]

 

 

In fact to think that any associate of the Lord in the spiritual world can fall from His association shows a lack of understanding of the basic intrinsic nature of the Lord's svarupa-sakti and it's wonderful all absorbing ecstatic attribute, Krsna-prema.

[Guruvani]

 

 

The theory that one can become illusioned and fall introduces imperfection in the [infallible] spiritual world—this is Mayavada philosophy. It derides the concept of the Lord's perfect abode. It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency.

 

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to highly situated Vaisnavas.

[Sarva gattah]

BB Vishnu Maharaja has never understood the following facts -

 

"Just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our original position as Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream". TOKYO 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

 

"Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place><font color=" /><st1:place><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=4><FONT color=black>Krishna</st1:place><FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=4> consciousness. Our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. Srila Prabhupada <st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=black>TOKYO</st1:place></st1:City><FONT color=black> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam<FONT color=black> 2.9.1

<FONT color=black>

 

 

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT size=2>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination".(Bhag.11.2.38)

 

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state,

So, according to Srila Prabhupada the only time we ever saw Krishna was when we were in susupti or deep sleep.

So, that cannot refer to the liberated devotees of Goloka.

They are not in susupti.

They are fully, spiritually awake.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada confirms that we have never really seen Krishna in the awake state of liberation.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

So many like BB Vishnu Maharaja, Narayana Maharaj, Swami B.G. Narasingha and Sridar Maharaj have misunderstood that our eternal constitution position, or our eternal devotional ’svarupa’ bodily foundations, are ETERNALLY ‘present’ in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

 

Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

 

 

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world"

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness -

 

Guru-krpa - “They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very . . .”

 

Acyutananda - “The original sin”.

 

Sudama- “Why we are envious”.

 

Guru-krpa - “How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . .”

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Yes’.

 

Guru-krpa - “How is it that . . .

 

Srila Prabhupada - “That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate”.

 

Sudama - “It is very hard to understand”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

 

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

 

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

 

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

 

Acyutananda - “In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in

 

Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is . . . Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with Krishna’s associates?”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

 

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

[Sarva gattah]

 

This should all bring us back to the question that gives this thread its name: Where does the impersonal interpretation of tatastha-shakti come from? Tatastha is an adjective, not a place. And all this is discussion of something that's inherently beyond the ken of the mind and senses to comprehend .)

 

No its not beyond our understanding -

 

Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love?

 

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.