Sarva gattah Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand how we originally feel down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand.We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire. Here is Srila Prabhupada's response. Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”. Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”. Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.” Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”. Acyutananda - “He can return”. Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam Class Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967 This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna. We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s'skti IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu and Shiva also correctly explained to us. The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires. Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand. Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels) How have we fallen to the material world? We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha. The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva). "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96) “The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings. Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this - “For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?” Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 - 21 “The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 - 24 In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka. Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love? We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Sarva Gattah: Don't forget, you are sleeping and dreaming. So, because of your sleepervadi philosophy it means you are dreaming that you have a body in Goloka waiting for you like a loyal dog waiting for his master to come home. So, since you are now dreaming, it is impossible for you to understand Gaudiya siddhanta and what the shastra and the acharyas have said. You are dreaming. You are sleeping. Wake-up and realize that you don't have a spiritual body laying around Goloka waiting for you to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> "Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevabhakta Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY><TR> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. </TD> </TR> </TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Yeah, but what did he know? He had yet to hear the commentaries of such Vaisnava luminaries as Sarva Gattah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 sevabhakta, you are right when you say Krishna's devotees never fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is because most NEVER make that silly choice to enter the material 'dream' world of Maha Vishnu and forget Krishna and their own svarupa body. Such devotees desire to always remember Krishna and never choose any 'dreamed' up imagined self glorifying substitute and therefore forget Him. Most marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) prefer to never ever move into the ‘dream’ creation of Maha-Vishnu however, that is their preference, choice and aspiration. Such a preference to use their free will in the way they yearn actually allows the living entity to further increase their love or service to Krishna boundlessly as expected of an individual free thinking being. This is also what marginal means (a sovereign being) however, it also allows one to miss use it if they choose. And that is another reason why the material creation of Maha-Vishnu exists. That’s the point Srila Prabhupada is making. Most devotees (75%) have ALWAYS remained aware of who they are ( SVARUPA) and what their service is to KRISHNA and NEVER 'dream' of coming here to the material world. Such devotee NEVER miss use their free will for self centred aspirations that cause them to forget Krishna and their everlasting ‘svarupa’ bodily identity, yet that option is always their regardless because of their marginal identity. They simply NEVER forget Krishna. Once again, that is their preference to never leave Goloka EXCEPT in Krishna Lila. This is an imperative point to appreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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