Marginal Jivas do not always become internal energy

[sevabhakta]

According to this purport, some Jiva's do not transform into Cit potency.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times. (For all those who call particles "impersonal" read it and weep)

 

Perhaps, there can be a point where one of such associates gets transformed into Cit potency. Krsna can do anything.

 

But it seems clear from this purport that this is not always the case.

 

 

 

SB 1.14.32-33

 

 

 

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

[Svarupa]

All marginal living entities have always had an eternal svarupa body that is forever in the pastimes of Krishna within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a… Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times. (For all those who call particles "impersonal" read it and weep)

 

The Vaishnava conception is so very personal that *everything* is considered to be a person:

 

 

http://www.scsmath.com/books/Subjective_Evolution.pdf

Page 25

 

 

Dr. Singh: But are the objects the subject perceives also

persons? When we are seeing the color red, now is red also

a personality?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: Everything has its representation in

the original, personal, conscious, spiritual reality. Otherwise,

there is no possibility of its being reflected into this plane

as matter. First there is consciousness and then when it is

in a more gross condition, it appears to be matter. In the

study of ontology it is taught that when studying a partic-

ular thing, although we can know that it has certain attributes

to the eye, and that it appears to the ear in a particular

way, these are all appearances. Independent of appearances,

the ontological aspect of a thing – what it is, the reality of

a thing – is unknown and unknowable. My contention is

that when consciousness is going to feel non-conscious

matter it will have to pass through a conscious area to

meet the material object. So the full perception of that

material thing cannot but be conscious; and consciousness

always indicates person. First there is conception and

then the material idea.

The conscious world is very near and the material world

is very far off. Therefore the great Rishis, whose thinking is

highly developed, address whatever they find within the

environment as if they are all persons. In the Vedas, the

ancient scriptural literature of India, we find that the saints

and sages are always in the midst of so many persons; in the

background everything is a person.

[Svarupa]

 

 

This is what is really going on

 

 

The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy.

Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38)

When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.

Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.

In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

[sevabhakta]

All I have to do is reproduce this one quote above from "Vigraha" aka "Swarupa" aka "Cheif Sleeping Vadi", to show that all his voluminous posts are nothing more than the vain gurgitations of someone who is pleased with the sound of his own speculations.

 

"When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila."

As you can see, he is so busy bloviating and pontificating that he forgets the example used time and time again by the Siddhantic defense squad (SCS), of Jaya and Vijaya.

According to the above quote, Jaya and Vijaya were not fully awake. They somehow fell into some "insignificant nitya baddha (eternally conditioned) "aspect" of their identity.

So this MUST in principle be equivalent with the example of Sri Uddhava, another personal associate, or lets say, Srimati Tulsi or Sudama Prabhu, both who "offended" Srimati Radharani and were "cursed" to become Sankachuda (great demon) and wife within the material realm.

So Srimati Tulsi devi suddenly became an ignorant nitya baddha.

How offensive can you get?

I am not angry, just afraid for you, but then I am a very sentimental person, and wish no one would have to suffer such delusions.

Problem is Cheif Snoozy Body is perpetrating the perpetuation of this bogus philosophy in public, and there are many would be cheated Jivas listening in so I am doing what any sensible person would do and defend against this offensive api-siddhanta.

Please understand.

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

 

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord.

What I think we need to understand about the purport above is that Srila Prabhupada specifically mentions Uddhava in terms of his "descending with the Lord Krishna to this material world".

 

When associates of the Lord descend into the material world they enter the marginal zone because when they are in the material world they are also subjected to the material atmosphere and as such are at that time between the material and spiritual world.(tatastha)

 

My point all along is that in GOLOKA Vrindavan this material atmosphere or situation does not exist and as such there is no marginal condition existing there.

 

What we are debating in the fall-from-goloka fairytale is that in Goloka there is no material circumstances or surroundings and as such NO marginal conditions existing there.

 

Even before you presented this purport I was also thinking that when associates of the Lord come to the material world to assist the Lord in his pastimes that they are very similar to the marginal jivas except for the fact that they are self-realized and fully protected by the Lord.

 

I think the main point Srila Prabhupada was making is that when Krishna's associates come with him to the material world they require special protection from Krishna due to the fact that they are also exposed to the external energy of Krishna at that time.

 

When they return to Goloka, the marginal conditions do not exist and there is no exposure to the external material energy.

[sevabhakta]

Hmmm, in that purport he specifically uses them as an example to explain the difference between Visnu tattva and Jiva tattva, and calls them the tatastha sakti or the marginal energy of the Lord.

 

Perhaps the Lord transforms them from internal potency to marginal potency just for the sake of his material lila.

 

But as we have already determined, he does not need to do that because even the expansions of his hladini cit sakti have free will.

 

As a matter of fact, the fact that they love him is what makes expansions of his internal potency just that.

 

I need more information from sastra on this one.

 

I get your point that no marginal conditions exist in Goloka. And that such conditions exist here. But does that necessarily mean that he transforms the essential nature of each of his parishads to marginal when they are here with him?

 

It seems a small point as either way, they are always protected by his hladini sakti due to their love for him.

[Guruvani]

 

 

I get your point that no marginal conditions exist in Goloka. And that such conditions exist here. But does that necessarily mean that he transforms the essential nature of each of his parishads to marginal when they are here with him?

 

 

 

In my previous post I have shown that Krishna can and does convert potencies according to his will.

 

 

Sri Isopanishad 5 purport,

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Because He is full of inconceivable potencies, God can accept our service through any sort of medium, and He can convert His different potencies according to His own will.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Guruvani]

 

 

I get your point that no marginal conditions exist in Goloka. And that such conditions exist here. But does that necessarily mean that he transforms the essential nature of each of his parishads to marginal when they are here with him?

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

 

kṛṣṇera svarūpa, āra śakti-traya-jñāna

yāńra haya, tāńra nāhi kṛṣṇete ajñāna

 

 

 

The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa.

I think this purport explains the point I am trying to make.

The marginal potency are called as such due to the conditions.

There are no marginal conditions in Goloka in-as-much as there is no exposure to the material energy.

 

So, I stand by my position that there is no marginal position for the jivas in Goloka.

 

The jivas in Goloka are within the internal energy, not the marginal position.

 

If associates of Krishna come with him to the material world then they enter that marginal situation with exposure to the material energy of Lord Krishna.

 

In Goloka that situation does not exist.

[sevabhakta]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

 

kṛṣṇera svarūpa, āra śakti-traya-jñāna

yāńra haya, tāńra nāhi kṛṣṇete ajñāna

 

 

 

I think this purport explains the point I am trying to make.

The marginal potency are called as such due to the conditions.

There are no marginal conditions in Goloka in-as-much as there is no exposure to the material energy.

 

So, I stand by my position that there is no marginal position for the jivas in Goloka.

 

The jivas in Goloka are within the internal energy, not the marginal position.

 

If associates of Krishna come with him to the material world then they enter that marginal situation with exposure to the material energy of Lord Krishna.

 

In Goloka that situation does not exist.

 

Gotcha Prabhu, but my query was whether or not a liberated eternal associate, who fully embodies the internal potency when in Goloka with no traces of other potencies, is transformed "by Krsna's will" into marginal potency when "amidst" the realm of the external energy for his sport.

 

Like I said, a small thing, hardly worth mentioning, but I have not seen any quote other than the one from Canto 1 where SP says Uddhava et al. are Jiva tattva, and I am a curious neophyte cat.

 

Of course at his will means he can do that, but what purpose would it serve?

 

I suppose this must link to the fact that a Mahabhagavat can be under Yoga-Maya's illusion that they are fallen in nescience and are lower than a worm in stool. They seem to assume a marginal position for the sake of Lila.

[Guruvani]

 

They seem to assume a marginal position for the sake of Lila.

 

Yes, lila or seva.

The Mahatmas (not to be confused with jivatmas) come with the Lord to teach and preach.

As such, they play the role of a marginal jiva and serve Krishna by giving him the chance to preach as if to a conditioned soul.

Arjuna is a prime example.

Uddhava is another.

 

Krishna preaches to his parshadas who are playing the role of marginal, conditioned jivas.

It is for our benefit.

They are not really marginal jivas. (but they appear to be)

 

Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami in the same way.

Sanatan was inquiring as if he were an ordinary marginal jiva.

He wasn't.

He played the part for the sake of the fallen, conditioned souls.

 

In the material world Sanatan was in the marginal position. (apparently)

In Goloka he is securely within the internal potency of Krishna.

[Guruvani]

I would just like to add that the jiva is by quality already internal potency.

So, the idea that all jivas do not become internal potency is a little confusing in-as-much as the jiva is actually already internal potency by constitution.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

 

 

These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency,

The jiva assumes a marginal position according to the will of Krishna.

By nature the jiva is already of the internal potency of Krishna.

 

The internal potency takes the marginal position unless and untill the jiva attains svarupa-siddhi.

 

Then, the real nature as a fragment of internal potency becomes fully manifest.

[Guruvani]

 

Gotcha Prabhu, but my query was whether or not a liberated eternal associate, who fully embodies the internal potency when in Goloka with no traces of other potencies, is transformed "by Krsna's will" into marginal potency when "amidst" the realm of the external energy for his sport.

The jiva cannot ever fully embody the internal potency.

That is Radharani who does that.

 

The jivashakti can only embody a small fragment of the internal potency and represent one aspect of the internal potency Sri Radha.

[sevabhakta]

 

The jiva cannot ever fully embody the internal potency.

That is Radharani who does that.

 

The jivashakti can only embody a small fragment of the internal potency and represent one aspect of the internal potency Sri Radha.

 

Thanks for adjusting my semantics, but considering that transformation from one potency to the other would mean there are no traces of any potency BUT the internal, I think you can understand the point of my query.

 

I guess with respect to the Queen of Vrndavana, I should rephrase that and say an eternal associate who is fully embodied by the internal potency.

 

Actually the philisophical issue is WHAT is the core essence of the individual.

 

Some say it is Marginal potency because the essence of individuality is a free willing living entity.

 

Some say after transformation of the marginal potency to Cit or Internal potency, that the living entity still has free will and is still an individual, and in which case, using our linguistic abilities which are slightly limited in describing the eternal reality, the individual would be NOTHING BUT internal potency. So technically it is acintya bhedhabeda that a living entity in that case fully embodies internal potency, yet does not with respect to the source of the Internal potency, Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

 

Jaya Sri Radhe

[cbrahma]

Where is the evidence that we must eventually be liberated - nitya siddha?

The 'must' means that there is no need for a process, no need for a sadhanna, yoga for what will happen anyways on its own.

[sevabhakta]

 

Where is the evidence that we must eventually be liberated - nitya siddha?

The 'must' means that there is no need for a process, no need for a sadhanna, yoga for what will happen anyways on its own.

 

Paradoxically they both happen simultaneously, yet to the false ego's conditioned awareness, we may see that our free will choice allows us to escape Krsna's loving shelter, although we must admit theoretically that we are constitutionally devoted to serve him personally in a pleasurable way, so how long do you think a spark of God can remain not engaged in its original nature.

 

I would bet on Krsna loving you back into the fold. Eventually.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

considering that transformation from one potency to the other would mean there are no traces of any potency BUT the internal,

I would agree with that.

When the marginal jiva becomes fully integrated into the activities of the internal potency (devotional service and giving pleasure to Krishna), then how can any traces of that marginal condition remain?

 

When the jiva attains svarupa-siddhi in a positive and progressive rasa with Krishna, then like a seed grows into a plant and no longer is a seed, the jiva evolves into a full-fledged eternal associate of Krishna non-different from the eternal parshadas of Krishna with the same infallible position.

 

Hence, there is no chance to become ensnared by maya in a situation where maya is absolutely absent and without influence.