varnashrama-dharma

[cbrahma]

I don't 'get' this system. It is a hierachy of power, positions and distinctions that has resulted in nothing but the prejudice and exploitation of a caste system.

If one already has a tendency to lord over others, how does participating in a power hierarchy bring one to the point of equal vision - sama-darshana?

[theist]

In it's proper conception it is merely a way of conducting an orderly society. In any assembly of a hundred people picked randomly off the street you will find bascially four distinct pyscho/physical types with various combinations according to the individual.

 

Intellectuals,academics, priestly pious types etc.

 

Administartors, soldiers policeman, those with a protectice spirit towards others.

 

Merchantile types, business owners, landowners, people who are always seeing a way to make a buck.

 

Laborer types, who are not so inclined in the above ways and are happy working under the direction of others who put in their time at work and then forget about it until the next day when they do it again.

 

So it makes sense that a society would run best with the spiritualized intellectuals leading the way and everyone working under the protection of the adminstrators who kept an orderly and safe society and where the mercantile class good engage in commerce and the distribution of food cloth and other necessities and providing full employment for the worker class.

 

These four types are with us now even in western societies but it is working in the wrong order. In America we have the pious intellectual types not being listened to by the protectice class. What we have is the so-called protectice class taking direction from the mercantile class(Big Corp.'s) and exploiting the laborer class and everyone else for as much profit as possible.

 

So the lack of a proper varnashrama sustem has only lead to more exploitation not less. You are right that a formal system of varnashrama would also be exploited. It is just the nature of this age. But the absence of varnashrama does not guaruntee freedom from exploitation either.

 

That said I don't consider the attempt to formally re-establish such a system in this present atmosphere to be even remotely practical.

[theist]

TRANSLATION Bg 4.13

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

 

PURPORT

The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kshatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krishna does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Krishna consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to the different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krishna consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas. Although brahmanas by quality are supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth, most of them approach only the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Krishna. But a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, becomes a person in Krishna consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaishnava. Krishna consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Krishna, namely Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, etc. And as Krishna is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Krishna consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

[cbrahma]

 

In it's proper conception it is merely a way of conducting an orderly society. In any assembly of a hundred people picked randomly off the street you will find bascially four distinct pyscho/physical types with various combinations according to the individual.

 

Intellectuals,academics, priestly pious types etc.

 

Administartors, soldiers policeman, those with a protectice spirit towards others.

 

Merchantile types, business owners, landowners, people who are always seeing a way to make a buck.

 

Laborer types, who are not so inclined in the above ways and are happy working under the direction of others who put in their time at work and then forget about it until the next day when they do it again.

 

So it makes sense that a society would run best with the spiritualized intellectuals leading the way and everyone working under the protection of the adminstrators who kept an orderly and safe society and where the mercantile class good engage in commerce and the distribution of food cloth and other necessities and providing full employment for the worker class.

 

These four types are with us now even in western societies but it is working in the wrong order. In America we have the pious intellectual types not being listened to by the protectice class. What we have is the so-called protectice class taking direction from the mercantile class(Big Corp.'s) and exploiting the laborer class and everyone else for as much profit as possible.

 

So the lack of a proper varnashrama sustem has only lead to more exploitation not less. You are right that a formal system of varnashrama would also be exploited. It is just the nature of this age. But the absence of varnashrama does not guaruntee freedom from exploitation either.

 

That said I don't consider the attempt to formally re-establish such a system in this present atmosphere to be even remotely practical.

Intellectuals don't automatically run things. That's was Plato's dream.

The Reality is that we have morons like Bush.

Right and boys are celibate and old men renounce the world.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Koyaanisqatsi.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyaanisqatsi

 

 

Intellectuals don't automatically run things. That's was Plato's dream.

The Reality is that we have morons like Bush.

Right and boys are celibate and old men renounce the world.

[theist]

 

Intellectuals don't automatically run things. That's was Plato's dream.

The Reality is that we have morons like Bush.

Right and boys are celibate and old men renounce the world.

 

And your point is what?

[cbrahma]

 

And your point is what?

That, for a natural god appointed system, it isn't anywhere to be found.

[theist]

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

And your point is what?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> That, for a natural god appointed system, it isn't anywhere to be found.

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION Bg 4.13

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

 

PURPORT

The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kshatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krishna does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Krishna consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to the different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krishna consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas. Although brahmanas by quality are supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth, most of them approach only the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Krishna. But a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, becomes a person in Krishna consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaishnava. Krishna consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Krishna, namely Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, etc. And as Krishna is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Krishna consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

[cbrahma]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

TRANSLATION Bg 4.13

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

 

PURPORT

The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kshatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krishna does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Krishna consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to the different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krishna consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas. Although brahmanas by quality are supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth, most of them approach only the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Krishna. But a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, becomes a person in Krishna consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaishnava. Krishna consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Krishna, namely Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, etc. And as Krishna is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Krishna consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Which flies in the face of the facts of experience. Where it has been weakly implemented one finds so much deviation. All the problems in ISKCON can be directly tied to the authoritarian hierarchy which varnashrama dharma dictates. The quoted verse can't possibly settle it. There has to be more to this explanation.

[theist]

 

Which flies in the face of the facts of experience. Where it has been weakly implemented one finds so much deviation. All the problems in ISKCON can be directly tied to the authoritarian hierarchy which varnashrama dharma dictates. The quoted verse can't possibly settle it. There has to be more to this explanation.

 

 

Use your own intelligence a little. Nobody said Iskcon was the perfect model of varnashrama or anything else. Why do you run everthing through an Iskcon filter in your mind? Do you think Krsna was describing Iskcon when he was speaking Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna? No He wasn't. So why do you think you must relate everything He said to Iskcon as you hear it?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

How vast is our experience? How limited?

 

Koyaanisqatsi means "Life out of balance" or "A state of life that calls for another way of living".

We are living in Kali Yuga, when nearly *everything* good and holy has become perverted and corrupted.

Scripture tells of us different times when life was *in* balance and society was able to function in a harmonious fashion. Scripture tells us that those days of milk and honey will come again after a partial dissolution (at the end of the Age of Kali).

By the mercy of the Lord, the Movement of Mahaprabhu may flood the world with Love of God and usher in a new Golden Era *at any time*.

 

Which flies in the face of the facts of experience. Where it has been weakly implemented one finds so much deviation. All the problems in ISKCON can be directly tied to the authoritarian hierarchy which varnashrama dharma dictates. The quoted verse can't possibly settle it. There has to be more to this explanation.

[cbrahma]

 

Use your own intelligence a little. Nobody said Iskcon was the perfect model of varnashrama or anything else. Why do you run everthing through an Iskcon filter in your mind? Do you think Krsna was describing Iskcon when he was speaking Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna? No He wasn't. So why do you think you must relate everything He said to Iskcon as you hear it?

I'm not seeing ISKCON as the model. But it's the ony instance of that experiment. In India it corrupted to a closed family based caste system.

Why does ISKCON insist on its twisted version of it?

[mahak]

VAD is a natural positioning. The only thing needed is acknowledgement of that which is already naturally there. Otherwise, there is but contrivance, and thios is where the problem lies, whether it is the perverted reflection of VAD (i.e. caste system) or the latest in a series of concoctions by the organized religion that bears the name of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you take thirty random people, and land them safely without any way of leaving a desert island, something will give. Even the story of the Lord of the Flies, as ghastly as that one was, the natural VAD formed. There will be a spiritual advisor in the group, a natural leader, money folk and those who produce valuables, ie gems, trade currency, food. And there will be natural workers. No big eastern philosophy is needed for any of this, this is why I have has flac before by disregarding spiritual significance of VAD. VAD is there, acceptance of the natural order of things isa the only education needed, even in post-armageddon mudlife.

 

Not the contrivance is the problem. There is always envious lowlifes below sidras who dont do labor, have no spiritual insight, have no money or admin skills, but they end up taking over, controlling lives. Caste was a great way for Britain to control India. ISKCON may use this to dominate the devoptees as well. The devotee has to decide, then rid himself of false domination by the unqualified.

 

Gotta run, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[sevabhakta]

His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had the potency, and the prescription, for the only form of Varnasrama Dharma which is even possible for a group of people to manifest amongst this demonically civilized society in Kali Yuga.

 

His carefully outlined and detailed plan was given to his disciples to implement DAIVI Varnasrama Dharma. With an emphasis on Yukta Vairagya within the Harinama Sankirtana Mission.

 

He shared his wisdom regarding how to take any person, from any age group, and conditioning from any walk of life, and engage them in some meaningful way in the Sankirtana Movement/Iskcon society.

 

Only by their free will was any instruction followed and this is how it shall ever be.

 

His prescription for how each local temple was to function toward the goal of perpetuating local harinamas, prasadam and book distribution, regular temple worship programs, and the integration of the grhasta ashrama via independent farm communities, is still a blueprint for anyone to follow.

 

Those who can represent Srila Prabhupada's conclusions on how to execute such a locally organized Sankirtana Yajna, have the greatest and only chance of sprouting the seed of Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, while the rest of the population of the planet wallows in Sahajism, Impersonalism, Voidism, and Sub-Human religious fanaticism.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

 

I'm not seeing ISKCON as the model. But it's the ony instance of that experiment. In India it corrupted to a closed family based caste system.

Why does ISKCON insist on its twisted version of it?

 

I don't know what Iskcon insists on. I have no idea nor do I care. The varnashram system exists quite apart from Iskcon. Now it may exist only as thing of history or in conceptual form. It may be corrupted in India and Iskcon but why bring Iskcon into it? Are you a member of Iskcon? If so I can see why you might be concerned but I would suggest don't spend time on analyzing failures, rather learn about what works and then apply that to your life.

 

The formality of a varnashram system is highly impractical today IMO. I think it wise though to try to extract the essence of it and apply what we can to our daily lives.

 

For example you don't need to wear a kaupin to be brahmacari. You do however need to be celibate and disciplined.

 

And as far as the varnas go, our lives will run smoother if we learn somethng of our own acquired natures under the modes of nature and work within the general outline of those modes. To discover and follow our own path. Arjuna wanted to leave the battlefield and renounce but Krsna told Arjuna "To follow anothers path is dangerous."

 

"What danger?", we may ask. Consider someone with brahmnical tendancies who by pressure from his parents and society to become rich and successful suppresses his inner attraction to the priesthood where he would be living in poverty, studying religious texts all day and worshiping God. Pressure has him using his intelligence to acquire a law degree, seek employment from a top firm, buy a luxury house, get married and so forth.

 

Even if he becomes a first class lawyer he will never be happy because he has perverted his own sva-dharma from striving inwardly towards the Divine to the outward land of illusory sense perception and acquisition.

 

The brahmana has no business on the battlefield whereas the warrior has no business imitating a monk.

 

Varnashrama made it so much easier for each person to find his place within social structure. Today our position is so much harder and we have to compromise so often.

 

If we look at varanashram objectively we can only marvel at the intelligence that laid this all out. In varnashram we can see the perfection of social and political science, pyschology, and spiritual life all rolled into one. Look at it free from the thoughts of the failed attempts we see around us and I am sure you will be amazed.

 

But we can't live in the past so let's grab as much essence as we can and struggle on towards Krsna and have faith that He will carry what we lack.

[suchandra]

 

Caste was a great way for Britain to control India. ISKCON may use this to dominate the devoptees as well. The devotee has to decide, then rid himself of false domination by the unqualified.

 

Gotta run, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

Prabhupada's vision of a spiritual society was based upon the concept that in order to become situated on the spiritual platform one first has to become situated in the mode of goodness. This was the whole purpose of installing a spiritual movement, to make it easier in the association of like-minded devotees to lead a life in the mode of goodness and in this way gradually become situated in spiritual activity by transcending also the mode of goodness.

 

tada rajas-tamo-bhavah

kama-lobhadayas ca ye

ceta etair anaviddham

sthitam sattve prasidati

 

“As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature’s modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy." (SB 1.2.19)

 

However, making up the balance today, after 40 years ISKCON history the fall down rate from Prabhupada's parameters of rules and regulations he considered an ideal temple devotee should observe just among the leaders of the society cannot be called commendable. Varnashram is being brought in in that sense, that varnashram should provide the situation that Vaishnavas cannot fall down anymore. After all being a brahmana is a material qualification, if someone falls from the brahmana regs he might still be within his heart a Vaishnava.

When such a devotee performs sudra activities like carpenter why should he follow all the rules&regulations of brahmana?

On the other hand what did ISKCON do to improve their inglorious temple culture?

Are these really brahmanas who teach for free and situated in brahma-bhuta prasanatma? The latest news are that ISKCON becomes more and more orientated to develop financial resources which are in conflict to the brahmana function of a Radha-Krishna temple.

The mood of Lord Caitanya's early movement was the mood of tapasya and renunciation. Vaishnavas who conquered over eating and sleeping, who came from super rich background but gave up all possessions, etc.

Somehow this mood is lost and mixed with Vaishnava lifestyle in other yugas.

 

sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasani-krtau

nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau catyanta-dinau ca yau

radha-krsna-guna-smrter madhurimanandena sammohitau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who were engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord and bowing down in a scheduled measurement. In this way they utilized their valuable lives and in executing these devotional activities they conquered over eating and sleeping and were always meek and humble enchanted by remembering the transcendental qualities of the Lord.

[cbrahma]

 

 

Prabhupada's vision of a spiritual society was based upon the concept that in order to become situated on the spiritual platform one first has to become situated in the mode of goodness. This was the whole purpose of installing a spiritual movement, to make it easier in the association of like-minded devotees to lead a life in the mode of goodness and in this way gradually become situated in spiritual activity by transcending also the mode of goodness.

 

tada rajas-tamo-bhavah

kama-lobhadayas ca ye

ceta etair anaviddham

sthitam sattve prasidati

 

“As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature’s modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy." (SB 1.2.19)

 

However, making up the balance today, after 40 years ISKCON history the fall down rate from Prabhupada's parameters of rules and regulations he considered an ideal temple devotee should observe just among the leaders of the society cannot be called commendable. Varnashram is being brought in in that sense, that varnashram should provide the situation that Vaishnavas cannot fall down anymore. After all being a brahmana is a material qualification, if someone falls from the brahmana regs he might still be within his heart a Vaishnava.

When such a devotee performs sudra activities like carpenter why should he follow all the rules&regulations of brahmana?

On the other hand what did ISKCON do to improve their inglorious temple culture?

Are these really brahmanas who teach for free and situated in brahma-bhuta prasanatma? The latest news are that ISKCON becomes more and more orientated to develop financial resources which are in conflict to the brahmana function of a Radha-Krishna temple.

The mood of Lord Caitanya's early movement was the mood of tapasya and renunciation. Vaishnavas who conquered over eating and sleeping, who came from super rich background but gave up all possessions, etc.

Somehow this mood is lost and mixed with Vaishnava lifestyle in other yugas.

 

sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasani-krtau

nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau catyanta-dinau ca yau

radha-krsna-guna-smrter madhurimanandena sammohitau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

I offer my respectful obeisances unto the six Gosvamis, namely Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, who were engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord and bowing down in a scheduled measurement. In this way they utilized their valuable lives and in executing these devotional activities they conquered over eating and sleeping and were always meek and humble enchanted by remembering the transcendental qualities of the Lord.

That's nice on paper, but it simply isnt' 'good' when it has been practiced either in India or ISKCON.

Need I recite the history of its evils ?

[cbrahma]

 

I don't know what Iskcon insists on. I have no idea nor do I care. The varnashram system exists quite apart from Iskcon. Now it may exist only as thing of history or in conceptual form. It may be corrupted in India and Iskcon but why bring Iskcon into it? Are you a member of Iskcon? If so I can see why you might be concerned but I would suggest don't spend time on analyzing failures, rather learn about what works and then apply that to your life.

 

The formality of a varnashram system is highly impractical today IMO. I think it wise though to try to extract the essence of it and apply what we can to our daily lives.

 

For example you don't need to wear a kaupin to be brahmacari. You do however need to be celibate and disciplined.

 

And as far as the varnas go, our lives will run smoother if we learn somethng of our own acquired natures under the modes of nature and work within the general outline of those modes. To discover and follow our own path. Arjuna wanted to leave the battlefield and renounce but Krsna told Arjuna "To follow anothers path is dangerous."

 

"What danger?", we may ask. Consider someone with brahmnical tendancies who by pressure from his parents and society to become rich and successful suppresses his inner attraction to the priesthood where he would be living in poverty, studying religious texts all day and worshiping God. Pressure has him using his intelligence to acquire a law degree, seek employment from a top firm, buy a luxury house, get married and so forth.

 

Even if he becomes a first class lawyer he will never be happy because he has perverted his own sva-dharma from striving inwardly towards the Divine to the outward land of illusory sense perception and acquisition.

 

The brahmana has no business on the battlefield whereas the warrior has no business imitating a monk.

 

Varnashrama made it so much easier for each person to find his place within social structure. Today our position is so much harder and we have to compromise so often.

 

If we look at varanashram objectively we can only marvel at the intelligence that laid this all out. In varnashram we can see the perfection of social and political science, pyschology, and spiritual life all rolled into one. Look at it free from the thoughts of the failed attempts we see around us and I am sure you will be amazed.

 

But we can't live in the past so let's grab as much essence as we can and struggle on towards Krsna and have faith that He will carry what we lack.

The details of VAD are available to anybody who can read. Its practical realities are available to anybody who has been excluded by elite castes or abused in an authoritarian hierarchy of power.

[mahak]

When we read of the great cultures, we find inconsistancy as well.

 

For instance, Srila Prabhupada always states clearly that the varnas are based on qualification and real position, not on birth. Yet we see the greatest Ksatriya, the most qualified son of Queen Kunthi and Lord Suryadeva unable to act as ksatriya, being actually prevented from being ksatriya.

 

The most qualified King with all kingly qualifications was unable to rule the Kurus because of interpretation of his varna. Sri Vidura was shunned in his own house because of false interpretation of his varna.

 

So we conclude, that even though VAD is designed by the Creator Lord Brahma to make an orderly society, perhaps it is because society is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ORDERLY. VAD is not the highest science, nor is it a spiritual science. To perfect VAD means, like our excellent writer Suchandra infers, to be situated in sattwa guna, the mode of goodness. However, sattwa guna is tortured with karma, one must take birth as a god and live millions of years in luxury, awaiting old age, disease, and death. The cycle of samsara is still in effect. Troubles fron social and natural forces as well as the flickering mind is still in effect situated in sattwa guna.

 

VAD is a business deal, a management issue. A practical way for Srila Prabhupadas disciples to attempt aN ORDERLY SOCIETY. bUT TO MAKE THE MISTAKE OF CONSIDERING vad TO BE SPIRITUAL LIFE IS LIKE THE MISTAKE of thinking an appointment to manage a foundation is being made an acarya.

 

Srila Prabhupada's actual spiritual science is situated in suddha sattwa, pure transcendental goodness, not experianced anywhere among gods and men. There is no system of suddha sattwa, for situation in this guna is beyond any regulatory agents of the transient and temporary world. Suddha Sattwa intersects this world often, though, and we usually find persons so affected to be outside VAD, like Srila Haridas Thakur. He has no need to act within his varna. He may be brahmana like when he teaches the cave resident who came to embarass him, but he is also a sudra in the labor needed to create the cosmos (Oh, thats not work?) as Lord Brahma.

 

Shastra also reveals many cases where VAD is rejected. Vyasadeva is not considered a brahmana, yet he compiles the Veda. Drona is a brahmana, yet is there a better warrior? No one on earth was qualified to defeat him, only the intervention of Lord Siva (who helped in the creation of Draupadi and Drstadyumna) in creating a warrior with that sole purpose accomplished that.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Murali_Mohan_das]

In other words, if everything was nice and perfect here in the plane of exploitation, what attraction would we have for the plane of dedication (beyond Sri Krishna's all-attractive nature )?

 

 

When we read of the great cultures, we find inconsistancy as well.

 

For instance, Srila Prabhupada always states clearly that the varnas are based on qualification and real position, not on birth. Yet we see the greatest Ksatriya, the most qualified son of Queen Kunthi and Lord Suryadeva unable to act as ksatriya, being actually prevented from being ksatriya.

 

The most qualified King with all kingly qualifications was unable to rule the Kurus because of interpretation of his varna. Sri Vidura was shunned in his own house because of false interpretation of his varna.

 

So we conclude, that even though VAD is designed by the Creator Lord Brahma to make an orderly society, perhaps it is because society is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ORDERLY. VAD is not the highest science, nor is it a spiritual science. To perfect VAD means, like our excellent writer Suchandra infers, to be situated in sattwa guna, the mode of goodness. However, sattwa guna is tortured with karma, one must take birth as a god and live millions of years in luxury, awaiting old age, disease, and death. The cycle of samsara is still in effect. Troubles fron social and natural forces as well as the flickering mind is still in effect situated in sattwa guna.

 

VAD is a business deal, a management issue. A practical way for Srila Prabhupadas disciples to attempt aN ORDERLY SOCIETY. bUT TO MAKE THE MISTAKE OF CONSIDERING vad TO BE SPIRITUAL LIFE IS LIKE THE MISTAKE of thinking an appointment to manage a foundation is being made an acarya.

 

Srila Prabhupada's actual spiritual science is situated in suddha sattwa, pure transcendental goodness, not experianced anywhere among gods and men. There is no system of suddha sattwa, for situation in this guna is beyond any regulatory agents of the transient and temporary world. Suddha Sattwa intersects this world often, though, and we usually find persons so affected to be outside VAD, like Srila Haridas Thakur. He has no need to act within his varna. He may be brahmana like when he teaches the cave resident who came to embarass him, but he is also a sudra in the labor needed to create the cosmos (Oh, thats not work?) as Lord Brahma.

 

Shastra also reveals many cases where VAD is rejected. Vyasadeva is not considered a brahmana, yet he compiles the Veda. Drona is a brahmana, yet is there a better warrior? No one on earth was qualified to defeat him, only the intervention of Lord Siva (who helped in the creation of Draupadi and Drstadyumna) in creating a warrior with that sole purpose accomplished that.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[celina12]

 

I don't 'get' this system. It is a hierachy of power, positions and distinctions that has resulted in nothing but the prejudice and exploitation of a caste system.

If one already has a tendency to lord over others, how does participating in a power hierarchy bring one to the point of equal vision - sama-darshana?

 

Varnas -The four classes of society/The Original Caste System

Hindu society has traditionally been divided into four classes, based on profession:

the Brāhmanas (also anglicised as Brahmins): teachers and priests;

the Kshatriyas: warriors, kings and administrators;

the Vaishyas: farmers, merchants, herdsmen and businessmen; and

the Shūdras: servants and labourers.

Each of these classes was called a varna, and the system was called Varna Vyavasthā. Some say it is debatable whether the Varna Vyavasthā system is an integral part of Hinduism or not and whether or not it is strictly sanctioned by the scriptures. The Shruti texts make very rare mentions of this system, without providing explicit definitions. But the Bhagavad Gītā (4.13) explicitly mentions that the four varna divisions are created by Bhagavān, the Supreme Lord. And the Smriti texts (including the Manusmriti) are more explicit in their categorisation of the classes and framing rather strict rules about this system. During its early development, the social structure was based upon the profession. The Gītā (4.13) explicitly says that one's varna is to be understood from one's qualities and one's work, not one's birth. It is noteworthy that many great sages became Brahmins. Vishvāmitra was a Kshatriya king before he became recognized as a great Brahmin sage. Vālmiki, once a robber, became a great sage while Veda Vyāsa was the son of a fisherwoman. A hymn from the Rig Veda says :

"I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn......"

(Rig Veda 9.112.3).

Though historians do not agree on the specific period, the social system later became hierarchical and based upon birth, leading to the evolution of several sub-castes (along with a class of outcastes — now known as Dalits — outside the Varna Vyavasthā) and the practice of social discrimination of the Shūdra and Dalit classes, eventually forming the caste system as we know of today.

http://www.hinduwiki.com/index.php?title=Varnas

 

The religious institution of Varna-ashrama Dharma is followed in most Vaishnava Sects of Hinduism. Varna is simply an occupational structure for society. In varna there are four tiers Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras. All are important for a functioning society. You determine your varna by your skills and ability. Not by birth or race.

 

Brahmins are all religious clergy, gurus, saints, sadhus and the intellectual class(anyone with a Ph.D or graduates degree) etc......Kshatriya are the politicians, officers, soldiers etc....Vaishya are the business men, farmers, artists/painters/photographers etc... Shudras are the working class people to poor people. Those are the only four stations in varna ashrama dharma, there is nothing higher or lower. Whether a society labels these position the same or not , they still exist. Every functioning society must have these positions. In hinduism being in one of these stations doesn't carry any negative connotations. It's just something that exist. It's not race based or birth based, it's based on your skill/ability. That's not only fair it's practical, IMO.

 

In Hinduism there is no Caste, but there is Varna, which is very different system. There is more mobility and evolution with varna ashrama dharma then there is with the static cultural implementation of caste system, which evolved from varna. But it's not the same system.

 

 

 

British Empire: Articles: Britain and the Indian Caste System

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The word caste is not a word that is indigenous to India. It originates in the Portuguese word casta which means race,breed, race or lineage. However, during the 19th century, the term caste increasingly took on the connotations of the word race. Thus, from the very beginning of western contact with the subcontinent European constructions have been imposed on Indian systems and institutions. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[celina12]

 

The details of VAD are available to anybody who can read. Its practical realities are available to anybody who has been excluded by elite castes or abused in an authoritarian hierarchy of power.

 

You keep missing the point and making sweeping generalizations. The system doesn't discriminate people do. VAD is just a system to structure society, if people choose to abuse or mis-use that system it doesn't change what the system is meant for. In VAD everybody has an important role to play, by being a contributive member of society, this in itself has nothing to do with elitism, there are four varnas each are important for a healthy functioning society. VAD system has nothing to do with abuse, their is social and racial discrimination of classes in the west, but it lacks VAD. So it's not the system, it's the people implimenting the system.

 

All you have do is put laws and ordenaces in place to make sure the system can't be abused. Btw what is your ideal system, any system run by humans is corruptable, but what do you think works best?

 

If the right people were in the right positions, like varna ashrama dharma proscribes, then there wouldn't be discrimination and abuse of power, because people would be in the positions they are most qualified for as per Dharma.

[suchandra]

 

You keep missing the point and making sweeping generalizations. The system doesn't discriminate people do. VAD is just a system to structure society, if people choose to abuse or mis-use that system it doesn't change what the system is meant for. In VAD everybody has an important role to play, by being a contributive member of society, this in itself has nothing to do with elitism, there are four varnas each are important for a healthy functioning society. VAD system has nothing to do with abuse, their is social and racial discrimination of classes in the west, but it lacks VAD. So it's not the system, it's the people implimenting the system.

 

All you have do is put laws and ordenaces in place to make sure the system can't be abused. Btw what is your ideal system, any system run by humans is corruptable, but what do you think works best?

 

If the right people were in the right positions, like varna ashrama dharma proscribes, then there wouldn't be discrimination and abuse of power, because people would be in the positions they are most qualified for as per Dharma.

Thanks Celina, but will things change? Anuttama dd says, things only change after WW3? http://personifiedastrology.org/when.htm

Could be some truth to this. Vaishnavas have gamed away the chance to turn our Earth into a worth living place. At least we have prasadam:

 

HG Kurma Prabhu: Monday, December 24, 2007 <!-- <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:trackback="http://madskills.com/public/xml/rss/module/trackback/"> <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://www.iskcon.net.au/kurma/2007/12/24#a4315" dc:identifier="http://www.iskcon.net.au/kurma/2007/12/24#a4315" dc:title="One More Menu Planning Day 'til Christmas" trackback:ping="http://www.iskcon.net.au/kurma/newsitems/trackback/ping$4315" dc:creator="Kurma" dc:description="Want another Christmas lunch idea? Try using polenta , a very versatile grain." dc:date="2007-12-24T02:51:06+11:00" /> </rdf:RDF> --> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td>One More Menu Planning Day 'til Christmas</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> Want another Christmas lunch idea? Try using polenta, a very versatile grain. It can be used in many ways, it's hearty and filling, and easy to handle. If you haven't used it before, here's a delicious recipe.

Italian Fried Corn-Bread (Polenta)

Polenta is a yellow maize or cornmeal popular in northern Italy. Regarded there as a staple food, it can be used in many ways after it has been prepared as a rather thick porridge. Here in Australia, polenta is prepared from a special strain of corn grown in Queensland known as Yellow Dent.

Plain boiled polenta can be grilled, baked, or, as in this recipe, fried. Served with a homemade tomato sauce and sprinkled with parmesan cheese, it makes a delicious side dish. Serves 6-8 persons.

2 litres water 2 teaspoons salt 3½ cups cornmeal (polenta) 90g butter 3 tablespoons olive oil fresh, herbed tomato puree to serve parmesan cheese to serve

 

Bring to the boil the water and salt in a 6-litre/quart saucepan over full heat. Gradually sprinkle the cornmeal over the water, stirring constantly with a wire whisk. Make sure that there are no lumps of cornmeal. Reduce the heat to low. Continue to stir the polenta mixture until it is very thick (approximately 10 minutes).

Leave the polenta over low heat for about another 5 minutes, stirring occasionally. It will be ready to remove from the heat when a wooden spoon will stand upright in the centre of the mixture and not drop to the side of the pan.

Spoon the mixture into an oiled 28 cm x 18 cm dish. Smooth out the mixture and leave to cool at room temperature for at least 4 hours.

Carefully turn out the slab of polenta from the tin and cut it in half lengthways. Cut each half into seven slices crossways, each one 4 cm wide.

Heat the butter and oil together in a heavy frying pan. When hot, add about 6 slabs of polenta to the frying pan and reduce the heat to low. Fry gently until the polenta is dark golden brown on each side.

Serve the polenta on a serving dish topped with fresh tomato sauce and gratings of Parmesan cheese.

 

Posted by Kurma on 24/12/07; 2:51:06 AM from the dept. <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td>

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[cbrahma]

 

If the right people were in the right positions, like varna ashrama dharma proscribes, then there wouldn't be discrimination and abuse of power, because people would be in the positions they are most qualified for as per Dharma.

Why? What is to be accomplished by shoving everybody into little boxes, especially in a hierarchy of power. How in God's name does this make them good?

The transformation of a society such as North American society into this monarchal system would require such a total revolution, the destablization alone would almost destroy civilization as we know it.

There's no danger of this happening though. The plan is so ridiculous, so impractical, so pointless (since monarchies have all failed) that few societies will even make the attempt.

The experiment in ISKCON has certainly failed and degenerated into a structure of oppression and abuse (old story).

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't 'get' this system. It is a hierachy of power, positions and distinctions that has resulted in nothing but the prejudice and exploitation of a caste system.

If one already has a tendency to lord over others, how does participating in a power hierarchy bring one to the point of equal vision - sama-darshana?

 

Yes, the risk of exploitation is there, but what is the alternative? That greedy and cunning vaishyas pretending to be brahmanas should have the stranglehold on power in Iskcon?