varnashrama-dharma

[cbrahma]

 

Yes, the risk of exploitation is there, but what is the alternative? That greedy and cunning vaishyas pretending to be brahmanas should have the stranglehold on power in Iskcon?

Of course there is an alternative. If Vedanta is about piety and service to God, then it isn't necessary to lord power of others to do so.

Organizational structures should be hierarchical insofar as they are practical for the purposes of accomplishing practical tasks.

They shouldn't be the summum bonum of connection with God.

When have they produced love?

[Kulapavana]

 

When have they produced love?

 

perhaps not being a kshatriya you do not understand that any human society must be organized? what's love has got to do with it?

 

love happens only on the individual level. but a well run society can help the individual develop in that direction.

[cbrahma]

 

perhaps not being a kshatriya you do not understand that any human society must be organized? what's love has got to do with it?

 

love happens only on the individual level. but a well run society can help the individual develop in that direction.

I explained that organization doesn't require despotism.

But organization can hardly yield love.

[Kulapavana]

 

I explained that organization doesn't require despotism.

But organization can hardly yield love.

 

Iskcon's despotism has no connection to varnashrama dharma - it is a byproduct of the guru-centric approach as introduced in the very beginning. Iskcon did not start as a despotic organization, but it quickly developed into one as Iskcon expanded.

 

I think that Prabhupada wanted to introduce varnashrama to minimize despotic tendencies of his leading disciples. the only problem is: despotic rulers dont cede their power on their own - they must be forced to do so. That is why they are still in power today.

[cbrahma]

 

Iskcon's despotism has no connection to varnashrama dharma - it is a byproduct of the guru-centric approach as introduced in the very beginning. Iskcon did not start as a despotic organization, but it quickly developed into one as Iskcon expanded.

 

I think that Prabhupada wanted to introduce varnashrama to minimize despotic tendencies of his leading disciples. the only problem is: despotic rulers dont cede their power on their own - they must be forced to do so. That is why they are still in power today.

I see no value in imposing such a structure when the structure of the general society is so completely different. Why that obligation even if it could be implemented? Because one has identified with a specific caste or level, is one now ready for self-realization? All of these designations are physical, material. To insist on it alongside the teaching that one is not the body is impossibly confusing.

[Kulapavana]

 

I see no value in imposing such a structure when the structure of the general society is so completely different.

 

 

 

BG 4.13.

catur-varnyam maya srstam

guna-karma-vibhagasah

tasya kartaram api mam

viddhy akartaram avyayam

 

 

 

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

 

that structure IS present in the world, you just dont see it.

 

in short, for ANY society to work properly people of brahminical qualities need to play the role of brahmanas, people of kshatriya qualities should play the role of kshatriyas, and so on.

 

Prabhupada saw that cunning vaishyas took over his movement and played the roles of brahmanas and kshatriyas and he wanted to change that. It is actually very simple.

 

[cbrahma]

 

 

BG 4.13.

 

catur-varnyam maya srstam

guna-karma-vibhagasah

tasya kartaram api mam

viddhy akartaram avyayam

 

 

 

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

 

 

 

 

that structure IS present in the world, you just dont see it.

 

 

 

 

in short, for ANY society to work properly people of brahminical qualities need to play the role of brahmanas, people of kshatriya qualities should play the role of kshatriyas, and so on.

 

 

 

 

 

Prabhupada saw that cunning vaishyas took over his movement and played the roles of brahmanas and kshatriyas and he wanted to change that. It is actually very simple.

 

 

Then why did Prabhupada lament not having completed the implementation of VD if it's already there.

And if it is, the whole issue is moot. It will simply work itself out. It's natural right?

[Kulapavana]

 

Then why did Prabhupada lament not having completed the implementation of VD if it's already there.

And if it is, the whole issue is moot. It will simply work itself out. It's natural right?

 

Prabhupada did not even begin to implement VD in Iskcon. The society in general has practical mechanisms of sorting people into different occupational roles - something that developed over the years. Iskcon does not... where else but in Iskcon can a sudra or a vaishya pretend to be a brahmana? you think people in general do not recognize a failure? why are Iskcon devotees still mesmorized by people who could not tell that Kirtanananda was a crook as they had a chance to see his activities for years? These people still are ruling in Iskcon.

 

Will it eventually work itself out? Most likely. I see already that the new generation of devotees will not fall for the myths and lies that shroud Iskcon. It will all change when Prabhupada's disciples die out. They are the ones holding up this process. You and me might not see that day, but it is coming.

[suchandra]

 

It will all change when Prabhupada's disciples die out. They are the ones holding up this process. You and me might not see that day, but it is coming.

Looks like this is fully right, the pioneers just couldn't deal with the success of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement, got swept away by false ego and turned ISKCON into a mundane global fund-raising welfare org to enable material egos to flourish.

[sanatan]

 

 

BG 4.13.

 

 

 

 

 

 

catur-varnyam maya srstam

guna-karma-vibhagasah

tasya kartaram api mam

viddhy akartaram avyayam

 

 

 

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

 

 

 

 

that structure IS present in the world, you just dont see it.

 

 

 

 

in short, for ANY society to work properly people of brahminical qualities need to play the role of brahmanas, people of kshatriya qualities should play the role of kshatriyas, and so on.

 

 

 

 

 

Prabhupada saw that cunning vaishyas took over his movement and played the roles of brahmanas and kshatriyas and he wanted to change that. It is actually very simple.

 

 

 

Yes, it's very obvious that the concepts of varnasrama-dharma correspond to the "natural order" of human affairs.

 

But, everytime I read or hear someone state that it needs to be implemented on a large scale, I get strong mental visions of robed mullahs issuing absolute "scriptural" dictates and women being stoned to death for stepping outside their houses.

 

Varnasrama-dharma is simply a blueprint for government by theocracy, backed up by military power. Fine for small religious communities composed of voluntary members, absurd to consider for anything larger, unless you like the idea of living in a repro-1000 AD Middle Eastern nation.

[Kulapavana]

 

Varnasrama-dharma is simply a blueprint for government by theocracy, backed up by military power.

 

Varnashrama dharma was never intended to be a theocracy and it never existed in that form. Theocracy means that priests are in charge. That is not the Vedic system. Brahmanas simply advise the kshatriyas who rule based on the principles of scriptural justice and common sense.

 

Yes, the rule of religious clerics usually creates a living hell for the citizens because these people just dont have the practical sense of justice and get totally wrapped up in their religious trip.

[sanatan]

 

Varnashrama dharma was never intended to be a theocracy and it never existed in that form. Theocracy means that priests are in charge. That is not the Vedic system. Brahmanas simply advise the kshatriyas who rule based on the principles of scriptural justice and common sense.

 

Varnasrama-dharma is a conceptual repackaging of the pre-renaissance European social order or the present-day Islamic social order that exists in many countries, nothing more.

 

I personally doubt that it has ever existed in the idealized-perfect form that is a mainstay of ISKCON philosophy...in actual effect, it is the basis for the rigid and degenerate caste system that seems to be intransigently rooted in Hindu society.

 

Try substituting pope or bishop for brahmana and baron, lord, or knight for kshatriya in the last sentence of your paragraph.

 

 

Yes, the rule of religious clerics usually creates a living hell for the citizens because these people just dont have the practical sense of justice and get totally wrapped up in their religious trip.

 

So historically, military leaders have had that "practical sense of justice" and "common sense" that was/is lacking in the clergy? Hmmmm...

[Kulapavana]

 

So historically, military leaders have had that "practical sense of justice" and "common sense" that was/is lacking in the clergy? Hmmmm...

 

you have a point there

 

it has all degraded pretty much...

[sanatan]

 

you have a point there

 

it has all degraded pretty much...

 

I hope you don't view me as a basher of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy, because that is not my intention.

 

It just seems to me that varnasrama-dharma is more on the irrelevant-in-practice end than just about any major point of the philosophy, but still gets huge amounts of airtime.

 

Given the history of ISKCON leadership, this isn't surprising.

[theist]

 

It just seems to me that varnasrama-dharma is more on the irrelevant-in-practice end than just about any major point of the philosophy, but still gets huge amounts of airtime.

 

 

 

I agree. In my mind it is such a dead subject that is interesting only as a topic of conversation at best and one that becomes intolerably boring after such a short time.. Any practical application for VAD in this time and circumstance is so out the window as sanatana said.

 

The relevance is there but only in terms of one learning what their own nature is under the three modes of nature so as to best faciltitate their personal karma/bhakti-yoga practice.

[suchandra]

 

I agree. In my mind it is such a dead subject that is interesting only as a topic of conversation at best and one that becomes intolerably boring after such a short time.. Any practical application for VAD in this time and circumstance is so out the window as sanatana said.

 

The relevance is there but only in terms of one learning what their own nature is under the three modes of nature so as to best faciltitate their personal karma/bhakti-yoga practice.

At times were brahmana gurus need a "Guru Resolve Committee" - ( another group posing yet as the "higher authority" for brahmana gurus ) better stay aloof from VAD and do like the cobbler:

 

 

"There is a story, I shall… It is not story. Or take it as story, that sometimes Narada Muni was passing, and one very learned scholar, brahmana, he saw Narada Muni, and he asked Narada Muni, “Sir, where you are going?” He said, “I am going to Vṛndāvana, yes, Vaikunṭha, to see my Lord.” “Oh, you are going there?” Narada Muni has got free passage to everyone. So, “Will you ask Nārāyaṇa when my liberation will come?” “All right, I shall ask.” Then he met a cobbler. He was sewing shoes. So he also asked, “Sir, where you are going?” “Now I am going to Vaikuṇṭha to see my Lord.” So, “Will you ask when I shall get salvation?” So Narada Muni noted, “All right, I shall ask.” So when Narada Muni met Nārāyana, he, after finishing his business, he asked the two men’s question, that “These two men, one very learned scholar, brāhmana, he also asked me this question, and the cobbler also asked me.” So Nārāyaṇa said “This cobbler will get his salvation after finishing this life, and this brāhmana will have to take, wait for many, many births.”

So Nārada Muni became very much inquisitive, “How is that?” So when he came back, first of all he met the brāhmana. He inquired, “Did you inquire, sir, about me?” “Yes, yes. He said that you have to wait many, many births.” No, He did not say many, many births, Krishna said, Nārāyaṇa said that “When you meet them again, you say that, if they inquire ‘What my Lord was doing at that time?’ you say that ‘He was pulling one elephant from the hole of a nail,’ ” what is called?

Devotees: Needle.

Prabhupāda: Needle. So when he met the brāhmaṇa he said… And he inquired, “What Nārāyana was doing when you met Him?” “I saw that He was pulling one elephant through the hole of a needle.” So he immediately said, “All right, sir, namaskāra. Your, all these big, big stories we cannot believe, that an elephant is being drawn through the hole of a needle.” And the same question was raised by the cobbler, and he, Narada Muni replied in the same way. And he began to cry, “Oh, my Lord is so powerful. He can do anything.” So Narada Muni inquired that “How do you believe that the elephant is being drawn through the hole of a needle?” “Now, why not? I am seeing daily. I am sitting under this banyan tree and there is fig, banyan fruit, and there are thousands of seeds, and I know that each seed’s containing a big tree like this.”

That’s a fact. Everyone knows. Bījo ’haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Here Krishna says, bījo ’haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Is there any chemist? Just get one small seed like the fig seed. It is very small, but it contains that big tree. Where is that chemistry? Where is that physics? So here is the answer, Krishna says, bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ viddhi. Big, even this big, gigantic universe, that is also bījaṁ māṁ sarva- bhūtānām. It is stated in the Vedic literature. Yasyaika-niśvasita- kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. There are so many things. Everyone is inquisitive, “Where is the beginning of this thing?” The beginning is the Supreme Lord. That is the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ [Bhāg. 1.1.1]. Beginning is there. So you cannot say that life has come from matter. That is not possible. Because here it is said, Krishna says, that bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Anything which has come into existence, the original source is Krishna. So Krishna is life. He’s not dead stone. Therefore the conclusion is: from life, life has come and matter has come. Not that matter has come from life. Oh, what is that? Life has come from matter. That is not the conclusion. That is wrong conclusion."

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā 7.9-10

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, February 24, 1974

740224BG.BOM

[Kulapavana]

 

It just seems to me that varnasrama-dharma is more on the irrelevant-in-practice end than just about any major point of the philosophy, but still gets huge amounts of airtime.

 

 

As a manager in my professional life I often think about people in terms of their varna. It really helps in figuring out their life skills and in assigning tasks for them.

 

It is very unfortunate that devotees see nothing wrong with vaishyas and sudras occupying the positions of brahmanas and kshatriyas in our movement. People who have no real knowledge and who dont't speak the truth can't serve in brahminical capacity. Those who have no honor and no courage can't be trusted as managers. It is very, very simple.

 

The idea of us devotees somehow implementing the varnashrama system in greater society IS a a pure fantasy and a total waste of time. But there are elements of VD that can easily be used here and now.

[cbrahma]

 

But there are elements of VD that can easily be used here and now.

 

Statements like this where VD and 'used' are used in the same sentence strike me as utterly incoherent.

It's as though VD were some kind of formula or system that could be put into practice or not.

Where are the implementation manuals? Where are the user guides?

It is so completely abstract and idealistic alternating between description and prescription , between the natural and the philosophical as to be pointless except as a conversation piece.

Furthermore if people are born into these varnas why would they even want to act as any other. And why are people's skills 'locked in' to only one skill set?

The more one investigates it logically, the more it degenerates into utter confusion.

[sanatan]

 

Statements like this where VD and 'used' are used in the same sentence strike me as utterly incoherent.

It's as though VD were some kind of formula or system that could be put into practice or not.

Where are the implementation manuals? Where are the user guides?

It is so completely abstract and idealistic alternating between description and prescription , between the natural and the philosophical as to be pointless except as a conversation piece.

Furthermore if people are born into these varnas why would they even want to act as any other. And why are people's skills 'locked in' to only one skill set?

The more one investigates it logically, the more it degenerates into utter confusion.

 

In one way, I think you're missing the point. Varnasrama-dharma, in a widely-general sense, is observable in human typology and inherent in human affairs, even though it doesn't formally exist as an implemented system.

 

In another, you're dead-on correct. The idea of fixed varnas or occupational duties grates against the deepest convictions of many of us who were born into the post-WWII democratic-meritocratic environment of the USA, and who consequently view the open choice to move occupationally, socially, and economically upward through personal effort as an "inalienable right".

 

Perhaps Kipling was truly onto something: "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet".

[cbrahma]

 

In one way, I think you're missing the point. Varnasrama-dharma, in a widely-general sense, is observable in human typology and inherent in human affairs, even though it doesn't formally exist as an implemented system.

 

The "observable human typology" is a functional abstraction at best.

Plato discerned three.

In addition to the rulers, the Philosopher-kings, there were to be "Auxiliaries" (soldiers, police and civil servants) and the "Workers" (the rest of us).

That is also 'observable', if you choose to classify societies in this way.

The problem is that there are a lot of examples where an individual's natural proclivities cross over these divisions. The imposition of these castes can actually be unnatural and distorting.

There were experiments to implement Plato's Republic and they failed.

My point is that to claim that a descriptive taxonomy, like Genus/Species, can be 'used', 'implemented' is incoherent.

It implies that these divisions pre-exist in some supernatural realm, like an Ideal blueprint to be followed and practiced. When one finds that such attempts are often frustrated by the impracticability of the model, then the logical thing to do is to conclude that the model does not represent reality.

[sanatan]

cbrahma,

 

In no way do I believe that varnasrama-dharma as a formal system is practical, desirable, or implementable.

 

All I'm saying is that for human beings it exists in nature and is observable, as are animal heirarchies: one animal will be dominant in its group or herd, and the others will function in deferential and supportive roles.

[Kulapavana]

 

Statements like this where VD and 'used' are used in the same sentence strike me as utterly incoherent.

It's as though VD were some kind of formula or system that could be put into practice or not.

Where are the implementation manuals? Where are the user guides?

 

 

You dont understand VD because you are neither a brahmana nor a kshatriya. It is confusing to you but quite clear for me.

 

The understanding of VD starts with understanding your own varna. If you cant figure out your own varna any attempt to understand VD by you will only be a joke.

[suchandra]

 

You dont understand VD because you are neither a brahmana nor a kshatriya. It is confusing to you but quite clear for me.

 

The understanding of VD starts with understanding your own varna. If you cant figure out your own varna any attempt to understand VD by you will only be a joke.

Things are surely more simple when following a pure devotee, in this present age it is even too difficult to find out what one's varna is.

 

Prabhupada: And nobody is going to disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to become ritvik and act on my charge. People are becoming sympathetic there. The place is very nice.

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 19, 1977, Vṛndāvana

770719rc.vrn

[cbrahma]

 

You dont understand VD because you are neither a brahmana nor a kshatriya. It is confusing to you but quite clear for me.

 

The understanding of VD starts with understanding your own varna. If you cant figure out your own varna any attempt to understand VD by you will only be a joke.

Isn't that convenient. Self-validating.

I don't have to 'figure out' my varna, if I don't accept that the system doesn't reflect reality and that's the real reason you have no explanation (other than the self-justifying one).

[Kulapavana]

 

Isn't that convenient. Self-validating.

I don't have to 'figure out' my varna, if I don't accept that the system doesn't reflect reality and that's the real reason you have no explanation (other than the self-justifying one).

 

Most devotees I talk to about this subject matter are almost offended I when I ask them to specify their varna. They feel it limits them in some way. To me, it is not about limiting, but about comprehending their social place.

 

Every sudra thinks he is fit to be a king. It takes intelligence and humility to see ourselves for what we really ARE, both spiritually and socially.

 

Btw. I wrot all that not to slight or offend you, but to merely convey my observations and understanding in this matter.