varnashrama-dharma

[cbrahma]

 

Most devotees I talk to about this subject matter are almost offended I when I ask them to specify their varna. They feel it limits them in some way. To me, it is not about limiting, but about comprehending their social place.

 

Every sudra thinks he is fit to be a king. It takes intelligence and humility to see ourselves for what we really ARE, both spiritually and socially.

 

Btw. I wrot all that not to slight or offend you, but to merely convey my observations and understanding in this matter.

I would have to believe your presumption about having to 'figure out' my varna in order to be offended.

The very fact that I have to figure it out actually invalidates the system.

Under VD I would want to be what I am (materially). I would be proud of being ..whatever.

In Kali Yuga everybody is sudra or lower.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

In Kali Yuga everybody is sudra or lower.

 

You *do* have a point there.

 

With all respects to Kula-ji (who very well could be a qualified Kshatriya), I've never much cared for the self-styled Kshatriyas. They remind me too much of the Blackwater mercenaries.

[Kulapavana]

 

In Kali Yuga everybody is sudra or lower.

 

typical oversimplification.

 

what the shastras say is: kalau sudra sambhava - in the age of Kali everyone is only a sudra by birth.

 

In other words nobody is born a brahmana, kshatriya, or vaishya - you must become qualified by proper activities and character to be considered anything more then a sudra.

[Kulapavana]

 

The very fact that I have to figure it (varna) out actually invalidates the system.

 

how does your inability to figure out your varna affects the system of VD? In the practical sense your varna is determined by your guna and karma. It IS very simple.

[cbrahma]

 

how does your inability to figure out your varna affects the system of VD? In the practical sense your varna is determined by your guna and karma. It IS very simple.

That begs the question of understanding depending on figuring out my varna, which is utterly bogus and self-justifying.

I shouldn't have to figure out. It should be obvious. Also you're ignoring that Kali Yuga reduces everybody to sudra and less.

[Kulapavana]

 

That begs the question of understanding depending on figuring out my varna, which is utterly bogus and self-justifying.

I shouldn't have to figure out. It should be obvious. Also you're ignoring that Kali Yuga reduces everybody to sudra and less.

 

It is obvious. You just dont like the answer.

 

I have a feeling you dont even understand what being a sudra is in the Vedic sense. Prabhupada often used the word sudra in a completely derogatory sense and now his followers dread such a designation. Actually sudras are the most flexible and free of all varnas to pursue their career.

[sanatan]

 

It is obvious. You just dont like the answer.

 

I have a feeling you dont even understand what being a sudra is in the Vedic sense. Prabhupada often used the word sudra in a completely derogatory sense and now his followers dread such a designation. Actually sudras are the most flexible and free of all varnas to pursue their career.

 

You're right, "sudra" is a dreaded designation!

 

This brings back a funny memory...I was a degreed professional in my working life, and around 20 yrs. ago a devotee at the temple here told me that people in my profession were "sudras"...I was a bit miffed but kept it to myself.

 

Actually, this whole topic is hot air.

[cbrahma]

 

It is obvious. You just dont like the answer.

 

I have a feeling you dont even understand what being a sudra is in the Vedic sense. Prabhupada often used the word sudra in a completely derogatory sense and now his followers dread such a designation. Actually sudras are the most flexible and free of all varnas to pursue their career.

It's obvious you have no argument other than circular reasoning, the presumption that something is obvious (which you can't say) and that affects my comprehension.

 

If I'm a sudra then so are you, but I don't care about that. I would have to buy into the viability of VD to care.

In fact in order to 'figure out' I would have to understand VD and accept it.

But if I have to 'figure out' my varna in order to understand, the whole process is circular and bogus.

[tackleberry]

 

typical oversimplification.

 

what the shastras say is: kalau sudra sambhava - in the age of Kali everyone is only a sudra by birth.

 

In other words nobody is born a brahmana, kshatriya, or vaishya - you must become qualified by proper activities and character to be considered anything more then a sudra.

 

Having to figure it out may be extremely time-consuming, and more often than not, the conclusion may not be accurate. You may have to spend an entire liftetime trying to find your varna, and any mistake would force you to start from scratch.

 

That said, wouldn't birth-based caste system end this problem? A carpenter's son would have the same genes (plus growing up in similar environment), so it's more likely that he'd become a successful carpenter, rather than a successful merchant. Birth-based caste takes genetics as well as environment into account. So wouldn't it be better?

[Kulapavana]

 

It's obvious you have no argument other than circular reasoning, the presumption that something is obvious (which you can't say) and that affects my comprehension.

 

 

You misunderstand what I said. Since the only thing I know about you is that you can't figure out what your varna is I am assuming you are not a brahmana or a kshatriya because these guys usually have no problem figuring out their varna.

 

What IS simple, is figuring out a person's varna based on their character and work they are performing - at least it is simple for people with a rudimentary knowledge on this subject.

 

Many devotees refuse to acknowledge what their varna is (or might be) because of the clearly negative connotations Prabhupada ascribed to the lower varnas. Is that affecting your comprehension of the subject? I dont know, but I strongly suspect it is.

 

I have had tons of discussions on this subject with devotees over the years (it was one of the topics that was very dear to me from the beginning) and the pattern is very clear: brahmanas and kshatriyas have no problem understanding VD or figuring out their own varna.

[Kulapavana]

 

Having to figure it out may be extremely time-consuming, and more often than not, the conclusion may not be accurate. You may have to spend an entire liftetime trying to find your varna, and any mistake would force you to start from scratch.

 

That said, wouldn't birth-based caste system end this problem? A carpenter's son would have the same genes (plus growing up in similar environment), so it's more likely that he'd become a successful carpenter, rather than a successful merchant. Birth-based caste takes genetics as well as environment into account. So wouldn't it be better?

 

In practical sense we usually have the varna of our parents. But not always.

 

And it is not extremely time consuming to figure out a person's varna.

[cbrahma]

 

In practical sense we usually have the varna of our parents. But not always.

 

And it is not extremely time consuming to figure out a person's varna.

There is no algorithm, no calculus to 'figure out' the varna.

On the other hand,there is the psychological and social danger of imposing an identity which the individual will subsequently 'live down' to.

There are personalities that show traits that cut across these rigid castes.

Again you ignore the Kali Yuga stricture that everybody is sudra or lower.

How can VD even be contemplated?

[cbrahma]

 

You misunderstand what I said. Since the only thing I know about you is that you can't figure out what your varna is I am assuming you are not a brahmana or a kshatriya because these guys usually have no problem figuring out their varna.

 

What IS simple, is figuring out a person's varna based on their character and work they are performing - at least it is simple for people with a rudimentary knowledge on this subject.

 

Many devotees refuse to acknowledge what their varna is (or might be) because of the clearly negative connotations Prabhupada ascribed to the lower varnas. Is that affecting your comprehension of the subject? I dont know, but I strongly suspect it is.

 

I have had tons of discussions on this subject with devotees over the years (it was one of the topics that was very dear to me from the beginning) and the pattern is very clear: brahmanas and kshatriyas have no problem understanding VD or figuring out their own varna.

That's a psychological gambit and therefore 'ad hominem'.

You presume that the reason somebody objects to the practicability of VD is that he can't face his varna.

 

Assumption 1: what his varna is

Assumption 2 : he can't accept it (although one would naturally be inclined to accept one's natural propensities)

Assumption 3: This presumed inability to accept a presumed varna incapacitates his understanding of VD -

 

Therefore anybody who rejects VD as a practical solution is wrong.

 

What varna would it be that is constitutionally incapable of following a line of reasoning, and cannot acknowledge or understand question-begging arguments?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

There is no algorithm, no calculus to 'figure out' the varna.

On the other hand,there is the psychological and social danger of imposing an identity which the individual will subsequently 'live down' to.

There are personalities that show traits that cut across these rigid castes.

Again you ignore the Kali Yuga stricture that everybody is sudra or lower.

How can VD even be contemplated?

 

I must say I'm with cbrahma on this one.

 

While I've never been to India, it seems pretty clear that the caste system (not exactly VD, I know) as it has devolved is almost universally condemned.

 

Was it here on Audarya that I was recently reading about a family having their son-in-law killed because he was a Muslim and they were Hindu?

 

Of course, here in the U.S., we have our own de-facto caste system (not exactly based on birth (if your Dad was a movie star, you've got a better than average chance of becoming the same), but often practically so)--you have professionals at the top (with athletes and movie stars as the demi-gods) and the grunts at the bottom.

 

Sriman Mahaprabhu's mercy knows no class distinctions, does it?

[sanatan]

 

You misunderstand what I said. Since the only thing I know about you is that you can't figure out what your varna is I am assuming you are not a brahmana or a kshatriya because these guys usually have no problem figuring out their varna.

 

What IS simple, is figuring out a person's varna based on their character and work they are performing - at least it is simple for people with a rudimentary knowledge on this subject.

 

Many devotees refuse to acknowledge what their varna is (or might be) because of the clearly negative connotations Prabhupada ascribed to the lower varnas. Is that affecting your comprehension of the subject? I dont know, but I strongly suspect it is.

 

I have had tons of discussions on this subject with devotees over the years (it was one of the topics that was very dear to me from the beginning) and the pattern is very clear: brahmanas and kshatriyas have no problem understanding VD or figuring out their own varna.

 

Regarding varna, I'm clearly a vaisya; no personal problems with where that's at, and I also understand the concepts of varnasrama-dharma perfectly well.

 

Yeh, "brahmanas" and "kshatriyas" certainly don't have a problem recognizing and declaring themselves as such...it's dog-eat-dog world, a person has to make a place and it might as well be at the top.

[theist]

 

Most devotees I talk to about this subject matter are almost offended I when I ask them to specify their varna. They feel it limits them in some way. To me, it is not about limiting, but about comprehending their social place.

 

Every sudra thinks he is fit to be a king. It takes intelligence and humility to see ourselves for what we really ARE, both spiritually and socially.

 

 

 

It it limiting to think of oneself in terms of a material designation. It is also limiting to think of others in terms of varna.

 

Krsna consciousness is about seeing everyone with equal vision.

 

What we truly ARE is spiritsoul period.

 

Devotees someyimes get caught up in dreams of being big Ksyatriyas and start acting out their fantasies like they are are characters in the Mahabharata or something.

 

A while back a couple of self proclaim ksyatriyas were here who were spending time going out to the woods and killing animals and then eating them convinced that it was their varna to do so and then trying to back up such behavior by (mis)quoting Srila Prabhupada.

 

Being a ksyatriya is more than taking some karate classes and running around in the woods with a bow and some arrows shooting at squirrels.

 

Same with being a brahmana. What qualities constitute a brahmana are given in the Bhagavad-gita. It is more than enough to try and cultivate some good qualities and not spend time and energy in childish pretense.

[Kulapavana]

 

Again you ignore the Kali Yuga stricture that everybody is sudra or lower.

How can VD even be contemplated?

 

Did you even bother to read the post where I explained this issue?

[Kulapavana]

 

Devotees someyimes get caught up in dreams of being big Ksyatriyas and start acting out their fantasies like they are are characters in the Mahabharata or something.

 

yes, and we had gopi-bhava clubs too... I see a lot of devotees who think they are much more advanced spiritually then they really are. What does that prove? That spiritual life is too abstract of difficult to implement?

 

for some reason Prabhupada saw implementation of VD as 50% of his mission. That is HALF of his mission, for crying out loud!!!! If you think he was wrong on that one, fine, but I think otherwise.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yeh, "brahmanas" and "kshatriyas" certainly don't have a problem recognizing and declaring themselves as such...it's dog-eat-dog world, a person has to make a place and it might as well be at the top.

 

I agree. The pretenders are out there.

 

But it is not hard to see who is a real brahmana or a real kshatriya. In a nutshell: brahmanas have the guts to speak the truth and the kshatriyas have the guts to take responsibility for their mistakes and to honorably rectify the situation, even if it kills them. How many of such people do we see among Iskcon top elite? I doubt I would need more then one hand to count such people in that group.

[cbrahma]

 

Did you even bother to read the post where I explained this issue?

Distinctions of birth vs 'training'? That only complicates and confuses the issue. What happened to the natural divisions? Now there's upward mobility? With a few courses in our accredited college, you too can be a ksatrya or brahmana!

[Kulapavana]

 

Distinctions of birth vs 'training'? That only complicates and confuses the issue. What happened to the natural divisions? Now there's upward mobility? With a few courses in our accredited college, you too can be a ksatrya or brahmana!

 

What on earth are you talking about? Natural divisions means they ARE REAL! i.e. we are NOT all sudras as you seem to claim. the training must be there to properly cultivate the natural tendencies. like educating kshatriyas so they become police officers and not robbers. A robber (which socially is less then a sudra) may be a person who has the kshatriya tendencies that were not properly focused and fostered.

[cbrahma]

 

What on earth are you talking about? Natural divisions means they ARE REAL! i.e. we are NOT all sudras as you seem to claim. .

Kali Yuga is all sudras or lower. I don't claim. Vedas claim.

So 'by birth' is not natural?

[Kulapavana]

 

Kali Yuga is all sudras or lower. I don't claim. Vedas claim.

So 'by birth' is not natural?

 

Here we go again... I showed you that you misunderstand that verse.

 

this phrase (kalau sudra-sambhavah) originates from the following shastric verse in the Skanda Purana:

 

 

asuddhah sudra-kalpa hi

brahmanah kali-sambhavah

 

asuddhah - impure, sudra-kalpa - like sudras, brahmana - brahmanas, kali-sambhavah - born in Kali-yuga, present age of degradation

 

In the Kali-yuga brahmanas will certainly become like (be born as) impure sudras. (Without samskaras and spiritual training, the brahmanas of Kali-yuga are considered sudras.)

 

Birth is just one element in this context.

 

(from the Vaisnava verse book)

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by Kulapavana . . . the training must be there to properly cultivate the natural tendencies. like educating . . . tendencies that were not properly focused and fostered.

 

The Information in the Gita that defines Varnasrama Dharma is data to be used by the intellegentsia of society. To know that these divisions exist is a revelation onto its self.

 

This data is to inform those who teach, and those who govern. It is a guide map as to how, why and what to teach to whom. [sudden realization: the military already utilizes such VD structure when assessing who will be promoted to what position].

 

These are natural and absolute divisions of "work skills".

Why fight it intellectually, when you should be washing pots? [oh, geez--this is a rhetorical question]

ys, bhaktajan

[cbrahma]

 

Here we go again... I showed you that you misunderstand that verse.

 

this phrase (kalau sudra-sambhavah) originates from the following shastric verse in the Skanda Purana:

 

 

asuddhah sudra-kalpa hi

brahmanah kali-sambhavah

 

asuddhah - impure, sudra-kalpa - like sudras, brahmana - brahmanas, kali-sambhavah - born in Kali-yuga, present age of degradation

 

In the Kali-yuga brahmanas will certainly become like (be born as) impure sudras. (Without samskaras and spiritual training, the brahmanas of Kali-yuga are considered sudras.)

 

Birth is just one element in this context.

 

(from the Vaisnava verse book)

 

And I repeat birth vs. 'training' - So where are the colleges for this upward mobility training?