varnashrama-dharma

[theist]

 

yes, and we had gopi-bhava clubs too... I see a lot of devotees who think they are much more advanced spiritually then they really are. What does that prove? That spiritual life is too abstract of difficult to implement?

 

for some reason Prabhupada saw implementation of VD as 50% of his mission. That is HALF of his mission, for crying out loud!!!! If you think he was wrong on that one, fine, but I think otherwise.

Yeah we have been here before and when asked for your plan or a plan to implement this you don't have one so I take it as so much smoke.

 

Be practical. It is more than enough just to try to concentrate on aham brahmasmi.

 

I know you consider yourself a ksyatriya. Why is unknown to me. I thought you worked in a lab. So perhaps you would like to tell us why you are a ksyatriya?

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION Bg 18.42

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness—these are the natural qualities by which the brähmanas work.

 

 

TRANSLATION Bg 18.43

Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the ksatriyas.

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Yeah we have been here before and when asked for your plan or a plan to implement this you don't have one so I take it as so much smoke.

 

Be practical. It is more than enough just to try to concentrate on aham brahmasmi.

 

I know you consider yourself a ksyatriya. Why is unknown to me. I thought you worked in a lab. So perhaps you would like to tell us why you are a ksyatriya?

 

I have a plan to implement VD in my life. Since I do not hold any position in Iskcon I am not responsible for a wider implementation of that approach. In the community where I live I try to foster the development of VD on a local level but it is a volountary system.

 

I was born in the family of kshatriyas (my father was a professional soldier in WW2) and such are my natural inclinations. I went through a military training but I did not want to serve the military machine of a communist regime. I was a manager (administrator) all through my professional career and I currently manage a scientific testing laboratory. Managers of people and projects are kshatriyas.

 

As to being practical. What is practical for me may not be practical for you. I see lots of devotees who claim to concentrate mostly on the spiritual side of life while making a mess of the material side of it. Maybe ultimately it does not matter that the material side of our life is a mess, but most people evaluate a religious path by what they can see here and now. Our Iskcon society is a mess and it is not helping us get Lord Caitanya's message across. Why is it a mess? Because vaishyas and sudras are running the show.

[Kulapavana]

 

And I repeat birth vs. 'training' - So where are the colleges for this upward mobility training?

 

there is no "upward mobility". you cant turn a vaishya into a brahmana, or a sudra into a kshatriya.

 

all you can do is take a person who has brahminical tendencies and turn them into a real brahmana, or a person with kshatriya tendencies and turn them into a true kshatriya.

 

a true Vaishnava regardless of his varna is seen as qualified to perform certain brahminical duties (such as Deity Worship or performing a sacrifice) because such a Vaishnava has the required purity of heart. the purely social functions of a brahmana (such as teaching, advising kshatriyas) are a different matter.

[cbrahma]

 

there is no "upward mobility". you cant turn a vaishya into a brahmana, or a sudra into a kshatriya.

 

all you can do is take a person who has brahminical tendencies and turn them into a real brahmana, or a person with kshatriya tendencies and turn them into a true kshatriya.

 

a true Vaishnava regardless of his varna is seen as qualified to perform certain brahminical duties (such as Deity Worship or performing a sacrifice) because such a Vaishnava has the required purity of heart. the purely social functions of a brahmana (such as teaching, advising kshatriyas) are a different matter.

So it's from birth or training?

You can't have it both ways.

[Kulapavana]

 

So it's from birth or training?

You can't have it both ways.

 

we are born with a certain mixture of the 3 modes as the make-up of our material nature and that part can change, but not by very much. still, without proper training these natural tendencies dont make one into a proper (socially useful) kshatriya, vaishya, or even sudra.

[cbrahma]

 

we are born with a certain mixture of the 3 modes as the make-up of our material nature and that part can change, but not by very much. still, without proper training these natural tendencies dont make one into a proper (socially useful) kshatriya, vaishya, or even sudra.

That makes no sense at all. Natural but with proper training? What nonsense.

[Kulapavana]

 

That makes no sense at all. Natural but with proper training? What nonsense.

 

if you are born with sudra tendencies you have all kinds of options as to making a living. you can become a thief or you can become a highly skilled and well paid artisan or musician. in the social sense it takes proper training to become a useful member of society. How is that complicated to understand?

 

without a proper training you simply cant be considered a productive and valuable member of society, regardless of the talents or tendencies you were born with.

[cbrahma]

 

if you are born with sudra tendencies you have all kinds of options as to making a living. you can become a thief or you can become a highly skilled and well paid artisan or musician. in the social sense it takes proper training to become a useful member of society. How is that complicated to understand?

 

without a proper training you simply cant be considered a productive and valuable member of society, regardless of the talents or tendencies you were born with.

That explains nothing about VD. That doesn't explain the difference between sudra-birth and brahmana training.

[Kulapavana]

 

That explains nothing about VD. That doesn't explain the difference between sudra-birth and brahmana training.

 

by birth alone you are not even a proper sudra. it still takes training to become a rel sudra.

 

as to the "brahminical" training Prabhupada envisioned:

 

1. IF you become an actual Vaishnava you can perform some functions normally reserved for brahmanas.

 

2. IF you were born with brahminical tendencies this training will turn you into a full fledged brahmana.

 

The issue of "low birth" is there mostly for the Indians to ponder. If you were born in the family of western "brahmanas" (intellectuals, scientists, or clergy) you are still seen as an outcaste by many people in India (including many Vaishnavas). Becoming a Vaishnava nullifies all such considerations. That is what Prabhupada was talking about.

[Jugg]

bhaktaseva wrote:

<His prescription for how each local temple was to function toward the goal of perpetuating local harinamas, prasadam and book distribution, regular temple worship programs, and the integration of the grhasta ashrama via independent farm communities, is still a blueprint for anyone to follow.>

 

SB 7:11.16 As an alternative, a brähmana may also take to the vaishya's occupational duty of agriculture, cow protection, or trade. He may depend on that which he has received without begging, he may beg in the paddy field every day, he may collect paddy left in a field by its proprietor, or he may collect food grains left here and there in the shops of grain dealers. These are four means of livelihood that may also be adopted by brähmanas. Among these four, each of them in succession is better than the one preceding it.

HDG Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami Maharaja Srila Prabhupada ki jai writes,

 

Purport: A brähmana is sometimes offered land and cows in charity, and thus for his livelihood he may act in the same way as a vaishya, by cultivating land, giving protection to cows and trading off his surpluses. A better process, however, is to pick up grains from a field or from a dealer's shop without begging.

 

TRANSLATION

SB 7:11.17 Except in a time of emergency, lower persons should not accept the occupational duties of those who are higher. When there is such an emergency, of course, everyone but the kshatriya may accept the means of livelihood of others.

 

PURPORT:

The occupational duty of a brähmana should not be accepted by persons in lower social orders, especially vaishyas and südras. For example, an occupational duty of the brähmana is to teach Vedic knowledge, but unless there is an emergency, this professional duty should not be accepted by the kshatriyas, vaishyas or südras. Even a kshatriya cannot accept the duties of a brähmana unless there is an emergency, and then even if he does so he should not accept charity from anyone else. Sometimes brähmanas protest against our Krsna consciousness movement for creating brähmanas from Europeans, or, in other words, from mlecchas and yavanas. This movement, however, is here supported in Srimad-Bhägavatam. At the present moment, society is in a chaotic condition, and everyone has given up the cultivation of spiritual life, which is especially meant for the brähmanas. Because spiritual culture has been stopped all over the world, there is now an emergency, and therefore it is now time to train those who are considered lower and condemned, so that they may become brähmanas and take up the work of spiritual progress. The spiritual progress of human society has been stopped, and this should be considered an emergency. Here is solid support from Närada Muni of the movement known as Krsna consciousness.

 

This example is showing like-minded people how to perform "cottage industry" resulting in practically "no karma."

[suchandra]

 

1. IF you become an actual Vaishnava you can perform some functions normally reserved for brahmanas.

 

Good point, although taking tons of risk, still, Prabhupada would offer this same essence.

 

"This statement is supported in Srimad-Bhagavatam, First Canto, Fifth Chapter, verse 17, wherein Sri Narada Muni advises Vyasadeva thus:

"Even if one does not execute his specific occupational duty, but immediately takes direct shelter of the lotus feet of Hari [Krsna], there will be no fault on his part, and in all circumstances his position is secure. Even if, by some bad association, he falls down while executing devotional service, or if he doesn't finish the complete course of devotional service and dies untimely, still he is not at a loss. A person who is simply discharging his occupational duty in vana and ashrama, however, with no Krsna consciousness, practically does not gain the true benefit of human life."

 

The purport is that all conditioned souls who are engaged very frantically in activities for sense gratification, without knowing that this process will never help them get out of material contamination, are awarded only with repeated births and deaths."

 

 

~ N.O.D. (Nectar of Devotion OR Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu), Ch 5, The Purity of Devotional Service ~